Experimental RTS/Space sim Collaborative Coding Project.
The goal is to design a game with structure/settings/balance of Starcraft and scale of Eve Online(i.e. huge space battles, space empires,etc).
Though this wouldn't stop anyone from contributing code/feedback/criticism, i'll be coordinating the project.
All code/ideas should be posted in this and subsequent threads which i'll start as needed.
step #1: We will collaboratively create a name for our project.
Each suggestion must explain why this name fits the project and why its better then any other generic name.
>>2 Game settings is science fiction. Some degree of realism is desired but not mandatory.
Anything which could exist in Startrek/Starwars without explanation is good enough for the game and its background story
(narrative element should be a strong point of the game, not an afterthought).
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Free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
>>4 I find this suggestion intriguing. Will could reuse some code and ideas from them, but this should be more of top-down design rather than a mod or fork of Vega Strike. These guys don't deserve to be plagiarized completely and their project could diverge from out goals. Here is roadmap:
First #1 naming the project. Unique,non-copyrighted name which sounds good.
#2 choosing a Language/Library platform from which we will code the project.
#3 choosing a common compiler toolkit, so that everyone uses the same version of design software.
#4 Creating or reusing existing engine into a space simulator.
#5 Adding physical effects and game features into simulator, until playable demo (single ship) is working.
#6 Adding player interface and dialog systems.
#7 Adding multimedia assets,character designs and unit textures.
#8 Multiplayer support.
#9 Distributing the alpha/beta via Sourceforge/Megaupload/Rapidshare/etc
#10 polishing the game so it has balance,intuitive interface and free of bugs.
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A State is absolute in the sense which I have in mind when it claims the right to a monopoly of all the force within the community, to make war, to make peace, to conscript life, to tax, to establish and dis-establish property, to define crime, to punish disobedience, to control education, to supervise the family, to regulate personal habits, and to censor opinions. The modern State claims all of these powers, and, in the matter of theory, there is no real difference in the size of the claim between communists, fascists, and democrats.
Oh, i would also suggest using the scrolling "StarWars"-esque text as intro for missions.
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A free press is not a privilege but an organic necessity in a great society. Without criticism and reliable and intelligent reporting, the government cannot govern. For there is no adequate way in which it can keep itself informed about what the people of the country are thinking and doing and wanting.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 1:27
ihbt
fv, I don't know how you can honestly be real. how anyone can honestly troll prog for this long, have sigs, etc. is really beyond me. I really feel kind of bad for you. Really. If you spent half the time on prog working on something productive like a job coding, you would really have it made.
honestly troll prog for this long, have sigs, etc. is really beyond me.
What would i gain from trolling /prog/? Perhaps its just me posting in style you find overwhelming for such a small forum. If you spent half the time on prog working I prefer to be productive only when its required.
Here (in this project) is no deadline, everything is reviewed equally, no pressure to contribute anything.
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It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf.
>>9 No. I have a clear idea. It just i don't dive into specifics of all the aspects at once, just work it step by step.
Its collaborative game design. Your idea could be more valuable then my idea or vice versa. Every idea or suggestion has to be reviewed.
>>11 Thats "proposed gameplay in detail" is spread through entire project and will change multiple time.
After release numerous tweaks and mechanics will have to be adjusted due player feedback and updates.
Design isn't static. Making some static gameplay decisions before you have a complete working engine running a demo is silly. You have to start from the basics, the gameplay can be adjusted at will.
You're going to be working alone on this, I hope you realize. What would you even gain by posting about this idea of ripping of other computer games to make your own? Are you trying to impress people? Are you looking for other people to work on it with you?(and god help you if you're asking /prog/) Are you going to sell it? It seems like a colossal waste of resources to me to chug out yet another copy of a game that will have nothing unique about it and will turn out crappy. I'm not trying to put you down, but making a game is not easy. Making a GOOD game, is hard. Doing it on your own is impossible, especially if you have no motivation backing it up like a deadline. This project will turn into dust before your every eyes.
FV. I'm going to help you, because you have no idea what you're doing.
Step #1, design the crap out of your game. By that I mean have a fuckton of documentation for it. Everything should be documented in extreme detail and even have pesudocode completed for it.
Step #2, review and sta... You know what you've caused enough pain to me.
>>13 You're going to be working alone on this, I hope you realize. In case collaboration fails this would become a private project. What would you even gain by posting about this idea of ripping of other computer games to make your own?
I don't intend to rip off anything. Its should be as original as possible. Reusing good game design and ideas from other games is perfectly acceptable. Even some code can be helpful. Are you trying to impress people? This project isn't aiming to impress but to create something which its developers like playing and answer all their gameplay needs. Are you looking for other people to work on it with you?(and god help you if you're asking /prog/) /prog/ isn't that hard to work with. I have patience and free time. Are you going to sell it? Its Free/OpenSource with GPL version3 license as all code in my blog. It seems like a colossal waste of resources to me to chug out yet another copy of a game that will have nothing unique about it and will turn out crappy. The game should be unique. Basic demo would be generic. Features will make it stand out from the crowd. Its called incremental improvement. I'm not trying to put you down, but making a game is not easy. I agree. I however don't think its impossible if sufficient time is dedicated to it. Even something no one here is expert at (like creating texture and 3-D models) can be solved(reusing other games models or algorithmically generating shapes and dynamic textures). if you have no motivation backing it up like a deadline Deadlines are counter-productive. The project will have unlimited running time. Just like Linux kernel is improved every year so is this game.
>>14 as a project coordinator i assure you i work by different methods. Methods which promote hacking over bureaucratic documentation and micromanagement. Extreme detail and pseudocode are going to occur in very few places if ever(and if they do they would be reached only in final design stages, when the code is 99% complete).
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When you can give the right answer, even though your past road was one of death, you open up a new road of life.
Will could reuse some code and ideas from them, but this should be more of top-down design rather than a mod or fork of Vega Strike. These guys don't deserve to be plagiarized completely and their project could diverge from out goals.
So you know what I meant when I suggest VS.
>>13
It's for fun. Fun for me means fixing various free software bugs.
Well we should first get to step #1: naming the project. Unique,non-copyrighted name which sounds good.
Try to suggest something related to space/astronomy/starcraft etc
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Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find, that money cannot be eaten.
>>16
Gamehood is not achieved by slapping a few independently-developed arbitrary mechanics together and releasing whatever it happens to compile into. You need to design everything together while paying close attention to the user experience, possible strategies, etc., else it will not be playable.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 2:44
>>15 This project isn't aiming to impress but to create something which its developers like playing and answer all their gameplay needs
So basically it's going to be as productive as jerking off.
>>19,20 Please leave these considerations until step #6
Its like arguing over which drawing style is more appropriate when you didn't bought the paint yet.
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When you look at the whole life of the planet, we - you know, man - has only been around for a few blinks of an eye. So if the infection wipes us all out... that is a return to normality.
>>21 Its like arguing over which drawing style is more appropriate when you didn't bought the paint yet.
Indeed, that is a very apt anOH COME ON HOW CAN THIS NOT…
…
… YOU IZ TROLLIN`!
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 2:59
>>21
Buying the paint before you're sure what colors you'll need is like... it.
>>23 You should buy all colors you can possibly need, NOT limiting your talent/flexibility/artistic expression.
Buy only the colors you think about right now is very limiting and would be a hindrance when you have inspiration for something different.
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A different conception of society, very different from that which now prevails, is in process of formation.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 3:07
>>24
What about different types of paint/pigment? How do we even know it's painting we want to do?
>>25 This analogue is akin to choosing compiler/library/engine in steps #2-4 not what would we paint.
We could paint anything. The canvas is the limit. Not the colors/paint.
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The crucial and monumental development in the art music of our century has been the qualitative change in the foundational premises of our musical language--the change from a highly chromaticized tonality whose principle functions and operations are still based on a limited selection, the seven notes of the diatonic scale, from the universal set of twelve pitch classes to a scale that comprehends the total pitch-class content of that universal set. We can point to the moment of that change with some precision. It occurs most obviously in the music of Scriabin and the Vienna circle, Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg, in 1909-1910, and very soon afterwards, though less obviously, in the music of Bartok and Stravinsky. I think it is safe to say that nothing of comparable signifigance for music has ever occurred, because the closing of the circle of fifths gives us a symmetrical collection of all twelve pitch classes that eliminates the special structural function of the perfect fifth itself, which has been the basis of every real musical system that we have hitherto known.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 3:13
>>15 with GPL version3 license
By the way, you lost me right there. If there ever got to be something resembling a working codebase, I probably would have contributed, but there's no way I'm handing over my code's freedom to RMS.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 3:17
>>24
No, you should plan ahead since your budget isn't limitless.
>>27 You can copy the game or code with whatever license you wish, as long as its freely distributed. >>28 We would use only free software which will cost $0.
Name: RADIANCE
Reason: The name directly implies a sci-fi setting (i.e. a stars radiance). It also implies power and expansion, the essence of RTS games.
On a side note, I think this project idea is awesome!
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I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 3:53
Hmm... how about, Void Sanctum. In honor of the project's manager.
If there are no other suggestions, Radiance would become the project name.
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Once a man has changed the relationship between himself and his environment, he cannot return to the blissful ignorance he left.
>>33 Void Sanctum seems disconnected from each in both terms: void is generic emptiness, sanctum is specific holy place.
Regardless http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctum_sanctorum is religious term and unsuitable for a game.
I'm sure some would like to suggest a better name later as this is not a very fast forum, but we can
continue to step 2+ as of now.
step #2 Choosing a language. A programming language will be the basis of this game and has to be :
1.Capable of 3-D rendering. 2-D and text games are not popular today.
2.Fast enough to multiplayer games. Performance of about 20FPS is minimum.
3.Support for libraries & graphics toolkits. Having a complete game engine is a plus.
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A different conception of society, very different from that which now prevails, is in process of formation.
These are the minimum requirements only. Some languages may be less suitable for game design(like JavaScript/Canvas) due performance issues. We'll collaborative decide which language is best for the task.
I'm not biased against LISP or Haskell being the language of choice, provided you supply some arguments for their worth.
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Why do you insist that the human genetic code is "sacred" or "taboo"? It is a chemical process and nothing more. For that matter -we- are chemical processes and nothing more. If you deny yourself a useful tool simply because it reminds you uncomfortably of your mortality, you have uselessly and pointlessly crippled yourself.
>>39 The ingame scripting language would be more user-friendly then JASS.
Something based on BASIC or JavaScript. This would be added at step #6+ for maps and in #8 for individual units scripts(non-hardcoded and scenario-based).
________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
A free press is not a privilege but an organic necessity in a great society. Without criticism and reliable and intelligent reporting, the government cannot govern. For there is no adequate way in which it can keep itself informed about what the people of the country are thinking and doing and wanting.
>>41 as previously mentioned religious terms shouldn't be prominent in the game. Its about science fiction settings. >>42 The game would not be mod or fork of another game. If your game has desirable qualities you should point out these qualities and post suggestions on how to incorporate them into the game. All such suggestions would have to be reworked to be compatible with game engine and general codebase(if they are deemed to be useful/interesting for the game).
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Writing is not a profession but a vocation of unhappiness. I don't think an artist can ever be happy.
>>44 You should rework these into suitable names like: Pillars of Trilithium Gates
which could incorporated easily into game setting(as e.g. some scenario-only imperial base structure).
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The great moral question of the twenty-first century is this: if all knowing, all culture, all art, all useful information can be costlessly given to everyone at the same price that it is given to anyone; if everyone can have everything, anywhere, all the time, why is it ever moral to exclude anyone?
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Free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
Lets discuss which language platform are not suitable in principle for this project.
In my opinion .Net/Java/scripting languages are not sufficient.
A native code compiler which produces optimized x86 assembly(or any other assembly which would be a bonus if the game would be ported) is essential.
>>49 Any sexual context/term/innuendo is inappropriate as a title. You can be a founder of an ingame clan with this name if you wish however.
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Bureaucracy destroys initiative. There is little that bureaucrats hate more than innovation, especially innovation that produces better results than the old routines. Improvements always make those at the top of the heap look inept.
>>55
He actually wants /prog/ to write it or help him write/design it. I bet ANONIX would be complete before he manages to reach his goal, but I won't stand in his way.
I doubt this project could succeed if it were started by a random, more experienced /prog/rider, much less by Mr. Void.
There could be a chance of success if someone experienced starts doing major work on the project, and gets other people to help as he goes, but in this case, it will probably be as effective as his compression algorithms, which is considerably much less coding work* than writing a full-fledged game.
* - Theoretical/formal analysis work not included.
>>56 Mrs. Void
I agree though, asking /prog/ to help with anything to do with programming is like talking to a blind man about Monet. It's better for one to go it alone and ask about the odd thing one gets stuck on, instead of `Hey let\'s us all do this'.
So, #1 is mostly settled. Name of the project is Radiance.
#2 choosing a Language/Library platform from which we will code the project.
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While the easiest way in metaphysics is to condemn all metaphysics as nonsense, the easiest way in morals is to elevate the common practice of the community into a moral absolute.
>>63
You masturbate over Sepples so much, stop asking /prog/ to say things until you get the one you want and just come out with it straight away instead of pseudopatronising us.
>>64 But 'until you get the one you want' could be any language which fits the criteria.
You just need reasons to justify its use. Simply shouting C#,c#,C# isn't going to convince anyone.
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A different conception of society, very different from that which now prevails, is in process of formation.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 10:48
>>65
Fine. I'll do point 2 so we can let this thread die quicker:
Sepples.
OpenGL for graphics (or OpenGL-based engine, see Wikipedia for a list and pick one yourself).
Sepples for its known wide usage in professional games programming. OpenGL because it's 3D and supported on a wide range of hardware. Also, both are platform-independent.
>>68wide usage Popularity doesn't mean anything.
OpenGL isn't exclusive to C++ see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL#Bindings
OpenGL because it's 3D It has to be 3D, otherwise its not qualifies. supported on a wide range of hardware. with varying degrees of support : my video card support less then half of those new OpenGL functions.
I don't see any valid argument here.
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What Djisktra thinks of machines that could think is as relevant today as Algol Programmer's Guides
>>70
Quit being a cunt, remember this is /prog/ helping you achieve your goals. I'm not seeing your posts any more.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 11:16
>>70
Actually I'd say that popularity inside of a massive industry does count for something. You're like a creationist saying that the adoption of evolution by 99.84% of the American Scientific community counts for nothing.
There are a lot of software developers who understand how to code and they choose to use C++ above all else. C++ has been amazingly well documented, has incredible libraries and support just for game development alone. Because other language can use a certain hardware toolkit it doesn't mean it's up to the task of being a competitor to C++ for game development. Fuck, I'm sure someone has made OpenGL support for brainfuck.
>>72 You don't present any valid argument.
Example for valid argument:
1.language X has fast learning curve and would be easy for most of /prog/ to learn.
2.language Z has little memory overhead and will not ruin game's performance.
3.language Y has very expressive syntax which can be used to construct game components (example of practical use).
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One has not only a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
>>73 Wide usage in the industry is NOT equivalent to wide usage on /prog/.
Forget about industry,enterprise and "BEST PRACTICES" for a moment.
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The genius of culture is to create an ontological system so compelling that what is inside and outside of a person are viewed as of a piece, no seams and patches noticeable.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 11:26
The natural choice is SICP Algorithmic Programming Language or SAPL for short.
Its fast(proven by science), very easy to learn(proven by MIT), and above all it has all the features of LITHP syntax and none of security risks of sepples.
>>76 I suppose you have some valid points. Security risks of C++ are well known and Scheme is geared for beginners.
Contender #1 Scheme, accepted.
Any other suggestions?
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Why do you insist that the human genetic code is "sacred" or "taboo"? It is a chemical process and nothing more. For that matter -we- are chemical processes and nothing more. If you deny yourself a useful tool simply because it reminds you uncomfortably of your mortality, you have uselessly and pointlessly crippled yourself.
______________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
When despotism has established itself for ages in a country, as in France, it is not in the person of the king only that it resides. It has the appearance of being so in show, and in nominal authority; but it is not so in practice and in fact. It has its standard everywhere. Every office and department has its despotism, founded upon custom and usage. Every place has its Bastille, and every Bastille its despot. The original hereditary despotism resident in the person of the king, divides and sub-divides itself into a thousand shapes and forms, till at last the whole of it is acted by deputation. This was the case in France; and against this species of despotism, proceeding on through an endless labyrinth of office till the source of it is scarcely perceptible, there is no mode of redress. It strengthens itself by assuming the appearance of duty, and tyrannises under the pretence of obeying.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 12:27
I'd suggest Java or C# but seeing as the majority here adopted the hate for languages that don't ask you to reinvent the wheel by providing time-proven API's I'm not sure that's something /prog/ would appreciate me doing.
>>80 Thats the point: any wheel can be reinvented. Its ``experimental'(aka hacking) coding project. Not ``Enterprise' "time-proven" "industry-standard" "widely-used" project which leverages synergies and skillesets and other bullshit.
Well, as for current arguments for any language. it seems /prog/ doesn't have anything better to offer then Scheme.
next : Choosing a compiler and accompanying graphics library/engine.
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When you look at the whole life of the planet, we - you know, man - has only been around for a few blinks of an eye. So if the infection wipes us all out... that is a return to normality.
Notes: Compiler must be freely distributable. No commercial software.
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These tests will have no effect on your grades. They merely determine your future social status and financial success...
hey are you that japanese guy (l?) that was making a bank with php a while back?
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 13:31
>>87
I am not that person. I use ! to represent a character that will not be mentioned. Another name for this character is "/prog/'s greatest contributor ever".
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 14:13
You guys are debating the language choice?
Just go with C like every other project or enjoy being the only one able to read the code.
>>89 Not quite. The choice is which Scheme compiler to use.
No valid arguments for any other languages were presented in this thread.
_______________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
The genius of culture is to create an ontological system so compelling that what is inside and outside of a person are viewed as of a piece, no seams and patches noticeable.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 15:03
Will you be licencing this game under the creative commons attribution licence 2.0 ?
>>91
Valid arguments...? Do you really know that little about programming languages to not be able to make a rational judgement as to which (from a choice presented to you by /prog/) to use? Are you actually seriously basing your choices on who presents the ``most valid'' argument?
>>94 Who presents most convincing arguments to his languages/compilers/code/ideas worth decides. Simple and logical.
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There are periods in the life of human society when revolution becomes an imperative necessity, when it proclaims itself as inevitable.
>>94 Here is summary: >>60 No arguments. >>62 No arguments. >>66 No arguments. >>68 C++ "wide usage" OpenGL "because its 3D" "wide range of hardware" "platform-independent"
"wide usage" is "its good because its popular" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
"because its 3D" A graphics library is required to be 3d (game is 3d). Its not a feature or argument.
"wide range of hardware" As well as any OpenGL wrapper library. Who would use libraries without hardware support?
"platform-independent" Many languages are, though this isn't not critical as 90% of intended audience uses Windows. >>69 No arguments. >>73 "a lot of software developers " -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
"C++ has been amazingly well documented" I'd won't touch undocumented languages. Its not really a "feature".
"incredible libraries" subjective. C++ require specific compilers and settings to use well, and arcane build process.
"support" this isn't tech support issue. Documentation is what we need. >>76 "natural choice" subjective.
"fast" partially. If compiled via C to asm.
"very easy to learn" valid argument: used in education of non-programmers.-> Short learning curve
"all the features of LITHP" debatable, though partilyl correct since Scheme is Lisp dialect.
"none of security risks of sepples" valid argument: C++ code is prone to memory leaks, buffer overruns and other exploits. >>78 "OpenGL support" same as >>68. No valid arguments in favor of OpenGL. >>80 "time-proven API'" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition >>89 "enjoy being the only one able to read the code. " If Scheme has short learning curve /prog/ would be capable of reading the code and thus negating this. otherwise post implies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
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On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit. And you then go for this limit and you touch this limit, and you think, 'Okay, this is the limit.' As soon as you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further.
>>96
You said you wanted ``experimental/hacking'' language. Scheme isn't being experimental, it's beating a dead horse. Scheme has existed nearly as long as C, and is widely known, but nothing much ever came of it. Let it rest in peace.
You also rejected C♯ and Java for speed reasons, because they don't compile to native code. Of course, Scheme doesn't compile to native code either, and is in fact slow as fuck.
And of course ``easy to learn'' has nothing to do with usefulness over a long-term project, but then Scheme is really no easier than any other scripting language.
>>104
it is.
nobody seriously uses Python, you would have to be completely fucking insane to do so.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-19 21:16
>>107
Oh wow. I'd better let Google know that they're completely fucking insane for using Python in their system. I'll quote anonymous of /prog/ for this marvellous insight.
I'm convinced FV didn't have any other goal than trolling when s/he created this thread.
Still, I feel like answering that last post of his/her.
The main two characteristics of games are these: they are a lot of code, and their results have to be visible in real time or not at all, which means they have to be reasonably efficient.
Sure, you can go and write it in Scheme or whatever else you want, and it will probably be okay, at least for a while. Just keep in mind that if any slowdowns caused by the code exist, they will only appear once the codebase becomes large enough. At that point you'll very likely be well beyond the point of no return and have only two choices: optimize or scrap. If you can't optimize or you've optimized as much as possible and it's still not enough then that's it. The time you spent on the code is a total loss and you have to start over in a different language.
Professional game developers don't write in C and C++ because it's cool or anything like that. They do it because both languages were designed with efficiency in mind, which means it's impossible, or at least very hard, to fuck up so bad that the entire project has to be scrapped.
Ease of learning is not a valid argument. Only the project participants and the compiler need to know the language.
In any case, all of /prog/ knows how to read C.
Security is not the main concern in game development. A game with a few memory errors that runs smoothly is preferable to an airtight game that will run smoothly in ten years.
There are tools to find both buffer overflows and memory leaks in C/++ code, so that's not even a problem.
There are two options (that I know of, anyway) to write 3D applications: OpenGL and Direct3D. There doesn't appear to be any difference in neither performance nor hardware support, so the only real difference is OS support. OpenGL runs on practically anything and Direct3D runs only on MS platforms and sort of runs on Wine. A game that runs on anything is technically superior to a similar game that only runs on the platform X, regardless of the market share of said platform.
This is meant as advice for writing an actual game that will be intended to be played, and not what was presented on >>5, which is just a troll.
If the project is intended to be merely masturbatory, then none of the above applies. The "game" can be written in anything, as much time as possible should be spent reinventing wheels, and the code will try to use the most complicated approach to solve any problem, rather than the most efficient or simple.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 0:25
>>112 At that point you'll very likely be well beyond the point of no return and have only two choices: optimize or scrap.
I'm not a filthy Schemer, but it seems to be that one of the benefits of writing in Scheme would be that optimizing can be done more quickly.
In any case, all of /prog/ knows how to read C.
All of /prog/ knows how to reach Scheme too.
A game with a few memory errors that runs smoothly is preferable to an airtight game that will run smoothly in ten years.
Uh, no. Running without crashes is pretty important.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 0:49
>>113
>I'm not a filthy Schemer, but it seems to be that one of the benefits of writing in Scheme would be that optimizing can be done more quickly.
I can't speak for Scheme, nor was I talking about any one language in particular.
>Uh, no. Running without crashes is pretty important.
But not more important than efficiency. If you can't run the thing at all, whether it crashes or not is irrelevant.
A buffer overflow only makes a program more likely to crash, and a memory leak doesn't affect crash probability.
Since games don't need to be written to run for a very long time (e.g. a single 12 hour session can be considered very long), memory leaks are not a considerable worry. And, like I said, there are tools to catch buffer overflows.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 0:50
>>114
You can't catch things that don't happen on your test system. And then you push a game that just crashes now and then on some poor sucker. Don't do it.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 0:52
>>114
Also, learn to quote FFS. This isn't rocket science.
>>117 I have better things to do. Learning rocket science could be one of them.
No, you clueless anus, you don't have better things to do. Learning how to quote takes a few seconds, don't give me this ``don't have time'' bullshit. You won't even notice the time spent.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 1:39
>>117 Valgrind and memory debuggers in general don't help you with bugs they haven't seen.
There you go.
I have better things to do. Learning rocket science could be one of them.
Could be, but isn't. Someone who can't manage to quote sure isn't going to get a rocket off the ground.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 1:41
>>118
>Learning how to quote takes a few seconds
A few seconds I will never get back. The classic greater-than style is just as good and I don't need to learn anything new. Fuck your quotes.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 1:43
>>120
No, fuck you. Ten seconds is not a noteworthy quantum of time when it comes to rocket science, and you wasted about as much by writing your post, you clueless anus.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 1:44
>>119
Can you provide an example? Valgrind certainly does detect buffer overflows, memory leaks, race conditions, and a few other things I can't remember at the moment.
>>98 Scheme compiles to native code:
Some compilers don't, some do. Scheme compilers which produce bytecode or interpret scripts are disqualified. >>100 Python is interpreted. >>112 "which means it's impossible, or at least very hard, to fuck up so bad that the entire project has to be scrapped."
this is dependent on developers. /prog/ could do it easily. C/C++ has plenty of methods to shoot yourself in the foot. >>113 I suppose you have some insight here. C/C++ is notoriously difficult and time consuming to debug(especially with amateur programmers). Scheme wins here. >>114 "Since games don't need to be written to run for a very long time " memory leaks don't need such long time to cripple the game, they could be exponential.
>>123 I'm too unskilled to use a language that can actually do the job, so I'll limit my contributorsself to one that I can pretend to be making progress with for a few weeks/months until I admit this to myself and give up.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 2:20
This is just insanity. Don't you ever wonder why there are so few open source games out there? It's because they cost *millions of dollars* to make. A publisher pays a team of developers to work 50 hours a week for two years to crank out a game. You're talking dozens of man-years of work. And this is often starting by licensing a $500k engine.
But for some reason, guys like you seem to think that 90% of this time is spent 'designing' and 'polishing', the former of which you think will happen magically during development, and the latter of which you think doesn't need to be done because 'it's open source'.
Do you plan to have a job while this project is going on? How many hours a week can you honestly invest in this on an ongoing basis?
It is possible to make an open source game, but you can't be so crazy ambitious. You want to remake Starcraft? Are you daft? Blizzard is remaking Starcraft right now; they've spent roughly 30*5*~50000 = 7.5 million so far and there's no end in sight. Try something MUCH, MUCH simpler, and work your way up.
If you are actually serious about a SIMPLE open source game, having worked as a game developer for 1.5 years and failed at countless open source game projects myself, I can tell you that the most important thing to worry about right now is getting content. You need artists. You need free, freelance art right now. You can't even have a playable prototype without it, and you can't keep anybody interested in the project without it. For every artist you find you can get dozens of programmers, so don't even bother recruiting a development team yet. Just get content. Unfortunately no artist is stupid enough to work for free, so this project has failed before it's begun.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 2:28
>>122
It doesn't detect them until they happen. Why is this hard to grasp?
>>126 Any commercial software is disqualified from use in this project.
I'm not paying anyone. This project is completely volunteer and everyone can copy the code for his own projects.
Art: at early stages we'll employ low polygonal models (demo,pre-alpha) later we will adoptsteal other games media content(with the provision that anyone who does this already owns the game:such content would not be posted on /prog/).
_________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
The substructure of the universe regresses infinitely towards smaller and smaller components. Behind atoms we find electrons, and behind electrons, quarks. Each layer unraveled reveals new secrets, but also new mysteries.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 2:32
>>123
There is so much wrong here... why did I get into this thread?
Python is interpreted.
Who cares whether it's interpreted? You really don't need cutting edge graphics; pure python can easily drive something with the graphics of a Playstation game on modern hardware. It's a space game, so you don't need much more than that.
You'd have to be insane not to write the whole thing in a high-level language; you'd be bloating your development time by orders of magnitude, just for some fancy graphics. Also, check out Google's "unladen swallow"; Python will hopefully soon be running at speeds comparable to Java.
Python easily mixes with C, so why not just start by writing it in python, and replacing the small critical bits with C when you want some extra performance?
Some compilers don't, some do. Scheme compilers which produce bytecode or interpret scripts are disqualified.
Many (most?) Scheme compilers compile directly to C. You can do whatever you want with it at that point.
You don't even seem to understand what interpreted means though. For instance GCJ can compile Java code directly to native bytecode. Does this somehow fit your criteria? Because all its really doing is rolling up the 'interpreter' code directly into your app. Almost all languages do this to some degree, including - wait for it - C++. Do you think that stack unwinding happens magically?
C/C++ is notoriously difficult and time consuming to debug(especially with amateur programmers). Scheme wins here.
WTF? You honestly think you will have an easier time debugging Scheme? You think there are better tools for debugging SCHEME than C?
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 2:35
>>123
When I say "fuck up" I don't mean in design. I mean in efficiency. You have to really try to write a game in C/++ that is so horridly slow overall that has to be scrapped completely.
The worst case scenario is that one or two modules are using a less-than-ideal algorithm (e.g. pathfinding) and need to be redesigned.
Any memory leak sizable enough to cripple a program in a short period can be measured by a system monitor and tracked down by seeing at which point the memory should be freed but isn't.
As an example, a game that leaks memory at around 300-600 bytes per second (a little over 1-2 MiB per hour) but has a memory footprint of 100 MiB is perfectly acceptable.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 2:41
>>126
This anon speaks the truth, although there are some artists willing to spend time in OSS development.
A more reasonable objective would be writing an RTS engine, I think.
>>127
And when they happen, you see where they happen and you fix them. Why is this so hard to grasp? Do you test software by staring at the code or do you actually run it?
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 2:43
This is getting too big, I think we need to start a new Radiance thread. The first post should outline out progress so far.
>>129 "Who cares whether it's interpreted?" Anyone who plays a slow interpreted game which requires installation of Python runtime plus all the programmers who dislike Python indentation style and would refuse to code in it.
Python is disqualified on all counts.
"You'd have to be insane not to write the whole thing in a high-level language" It will be written in language determined to be most for for the task. Anything which doesn't produce x86 assembly .EXE files is not an option.
"Python easily mixes with C" Many languages do. This argument doesn't count.
" GCJ can compile Java code directly to native bytecode." native bytecode.
>>130 A game which crashes isn't viable. C/C++ programs can be debugged for hours and crashes would happen still. >>131 We're writing the engine first. The game mechanics are written later and the engine in modified in the process to expand features/capabilities. >>132 Its not yet 1000 replies. new Radiance thread would be started after current one is closed.
________________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Once a man has changed the relationship between himself and his environment, he cannot return to the blissful ignorance he left.
We should write this in java + eclipse and then for speed once we have it working, copy paste the code into DEVC++ and convert it to C.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 2:58
>>131 And when they happen, you see where they happen and you fix them. Why is this so hard to grasp? Do you test software by staring at the code or do you actually run it?
No, you nut. They happen to your poor customers who trusted you not to throw a wrench in your own development process. And maybe you issue a patch after a couple months. Maybe you don't.
If you want to promote C/C++ as game design language you have to prepare valid arguments(how language X is fit for game development more then Y) and not parrot "time-proven" "industry-standard" "wide-usage" claims which all reduce to simple fallacies.
__________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
A different conception of society, very different from that which now prevails, is in process of formation.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 3:00
>>134
You do know that memory leaks only crash a program if they become serious enough, right? For example, allocation in 32-bit Windows XP fails when the program has allocated 2 GiB. Following my previous example, a program with a 100 MiB memory footprint leaking 600 bytes per second would take 20 days and 16 hours to crash. The leaked memory would be more likely to remain in virtual memory so this would be true even for a system with less than 2 GiB of RAM.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 3:05
>>137
Okay, let's go over this again.
1. You suspect your program has memory leaks.
2. You run your program through Valgrind to find these memory leaks.
3. If your program is clean go to step 7, otherwise go to step 4.
4. See Valgrind's report to find where the leaks are.
5. Fix the leaks.
6. Go to step 2.
7. Done!
Your post makes me suspect you don't even test software. I pity your users.
>>136 Language is chosen before the project begins coding. Your example is hiding inherent incompatibility of languages which would require line-by-line porting(which would result in the game rewritten anyway). >>139 "this program will not leak more then 600bytes" is wishful thinking. Stop living in fantasies.
Crashes can happens due poor design which memory leaks is one symptom of.
C/C++ is not geared towards beginners.
I don't see anything which would be convincing argument to start developing the game in C/C++.
______________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
In the end, advertising rests upon the fact that consumers are a fickle and superstitious mob, incapable of any real judgment as to what it wants or how it is to get what it thinks it likes.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 3:12
>>140
Get real.
1. You know your program has memory leaks, since it's written in C.
2. Valgrind.
3. Since you haven't encountered any problems, you figure it's good enough.
4. You ship.
5. Some poor sap who trusted you runs a code path you didn't hit while Valgrinding, and it all goes to shit on him.
It's like you think bugs queue up on their own to be discovered. PROGTIP: no.
I want to explain two common misconceptions:
1.the game would not be created by professional developers. Its would be created by /prog/ volunteers collaborating over extended periods of time.
2.the game is not about one persons vision. I merely coordinate the project. Everything suggested is reviewed and critiqued. If everyone agrees, its incorporated into the project. Otherwise its discussed to reach agreement between all participators.
Currently we agree on:
#1 Name: Radiance
#2 Language: No consensus reached yet.
_________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
How do ideas come? What a question! If they come of their own accord, they are apt to arrive at the most unexpected time and place. For the most part the place is out of doors, for up in this northern wilderness when nature puts on a show it is an inspiring one. There seem to be magic days once in a while, with some rare quality of light that hold a body spellbound: In sub-zero weather there will be a burst of unbelievable color when the mountain turns a deep purple, a thing it refuses to do in summer. Then comes the hard part: how to plan a picture so as to give to others what has happened to you. To render in paint an experience, to suggest the sense of light and color, air and space, there is no such thing as sitting down outside and trying to make a portrait of it. It lasts for only a minute, for one thing, and it isnt an inspiration that can be copied on the spot...
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 3:31
>>143 2.the game is not about one persons vision.
Then it's fucked. DBC = DNW.
>>145 I can assure you the game wouldn't going anywhere without my supervision. I just don't believe in micromanagement.
For example, if 90% of /prog/ wants naked amazons as playable spacefaring race they would be in the game.
If 90% of /prog/ wants to develop the game in C/Java/C++/Haskell it would be in it, i wouldn't stop it.
If 90% of /prog/ doesn't agree with some game design choice it will be changed to choice which has consensus inside /prog/.
Why choosing a language is important?
1.It has to be approachable/easy by generic /prog/ user standards (short learning curve).
2.It has to be common language(consensus language).
3.It has to answer typical game needs(performance) and need no runtimes(standalone game).
_______________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
You're always a little disappointing in person because you can't be the edited essence of yourself.
>>147 Note on runtimes:
Runtimes require every player to install them. They are also slower then compiled languages.
e.g. Python has Python interpreter. Java has JRE. C# requires .Net. JavaScript requires browser(often only specific browsers).
________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
More laws can't make us safe from the tragedies that are the inevitable result of freedom, and of living around other people. Life is real, life is uncertain, life is inevitably unsafe. Measures to make it safe at all costs come with dangers of their own.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 4:11
I want my Javascript. Even with its interpreted implementations.
This should like this for anyone reading the thread.
1. /prog/ visitor views thread.
2. /prog/ visitor downloads compiler.
3./prog/ visitor installs it without any difficulty.
4./prog/ visitor start coding a chunk of code from thread.
6. It compiles to executable file without any problems and source is modified further.
7. Modified source is posted on /prog/ and reviewed. The process repeats itself.
______________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
When you're wrong, you're wrong. When you're confused, you're confused. You cannot have a conclusive debate when there is confusion in the premises or logic.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 4:28
I propose to rename the project to "Frozen Void", to honour the brilliant mind and driving power behind it. It's a space sim, and space is mostly empty (=void) and usually cold (=frozen), so the name matches perfectly.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 4:29
>>139
It's not wishful thinking. It's an example to show that memory leaks are highly unlikely to crash a program. Like I said before, a considerable memory leak can be detected and fixed faster than a small memory leak. A small memory leak can be safely ignored.
>>142
If your testing is flawed then you'll have bugs no matter what language you use or how many tools you test your code with.
>>149
>They are also slower then compiled languages.
You obviously don't know what a runtime is. What makes you even think you're in any position of deciding what a valid argument is for choosing one language or library over another? I'm also certain you've never written a single line of neither Scheme nor C.
What's so wrong about runtimes, anyway? An automated installer can take care of installing any necessary libraries. You'll have to install *some* library, anyway, so I don't see what so wrong about it.
>>154
this should look like this for the player:
1.Player download executable from rapidshare/megaupload/sourceforge for his platform.
2.It plays without any additional software.
_________________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be attained through understanding.
>>156 ". A small memory leak can be safely ignored." "if your testing is flawed"
"What's so wrong about runtimes, anyway?" 3/10.
______________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
We hold life to be sacred, but we also know the foundation of life consists in a stream of codes not so different from the successive frames of a watchvid. Why then cannot we cut one code short here, and start another there? Is life so fragile that it can withstand no tampering? Does the sacred brook no improvement?
>>155 name shouldn't reference living or dead people.
___________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
There are two kinds of scientific progress: the methodical experimentation and categorization which gradually extend the boundaries of knowledge, and the revolutionary leap of genius which redefines and transcends those boundaries. Acknowledging our debt to the former, we yearn, nonetheless, for the latter.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 4:39
>>156 If your testing is flawed then you'll have bugs no matter what language you use or how many tools you test your code with.
And you think you're somehow going to concoct the perfect testing technique that detects all bugs in the program? The rational thing to do is use languages that don't create unnecessary opportunities to introduce subtle bugs.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 4:46
>>160
But no one except us will know it's a reference, this would be our small ironic metajoke.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 4:50
>>159
You're the worst kind of person. The kind that talks whether they know what they're talking about or not. Enjoy your failure.
>>161
You said it yourself. The testing process should test as much code as possible.
You don't always have the luxury of choosing the language you work with, be it because your task demands it, or because your boss demands it.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 4:52
Haskell: It compiles to native optimized assembly.
It has extensive and concise syntax which would significantly reduce code size.
GHC is free and contains bindings for OpenGL.
Its easy to rapidly develop applications in Haskell.
Haskell is well documented.
Haskell is garbage collected. No memory leaks.
Haskell has efficient bounds checking code.
>>164 Valid arguments, except "easy" which is subjective(no proof given) and "well documented" which is required for any language. Contender #2 is Haskell
______________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
When you look at the whole life of the planet, we - you know, man - has only been around for a few blinks of an eye. So if the infection wipes us all out... that is a return to normality.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 5:01
>>163 You said it yourself. The testing process should test as much code as possible.
And how did you turn that into, “Reckless language choices are good because there are ways to check for some bugs”?
You don't always have the luxury of choosing the language you work with, be it because your task demands it, or because your boss demands it.
That's not what we're talking about.
--Multi-paradigm programming(functional, imperative, OO, meta-programming). CLOS is one of the best object systems out there and macros allow creating new DSL's languages with ease.
--Fast native code compilers: SBCL, OpenMCL, Allegro and others.
--Existence of compilers which compile to C, in case you want to inline C code, or don't want to have a large LISP image (10-20mb unless a tree shaker is used): ECL
--Quick prototyping is possible, code tend to end up very extensible
--There is no need for a scripting language engine, you can make a quick domain specific language in LISP itself, and script the game in it.
--Wastes less time of filler code, one can just express their ideas directly
- Cons:
--You might have to roll up your own bindings for DirectX, I think there's some for OpenGL, but not so much for DirectX. If you want to interface with external libraries, you'll need to do it for them too ( for example: libpng, zlib, libvorbis, truetype, etc). This isn't a hard task as there are automated tools for doing this.
--The language offers many features, and a novice programmer could make parts of the code hard to maintain, but this is true for other languages too.
--Large image size for true native code compilers, unless a tree shaker is used, if that bothers you, you can compile directly to C.
--Language is not known by a lot of programmers. Finding new developers might be hard.
The main problem here is that you will have to write enough code to get people interested, and I have no idea if you know LISP well enough.
C#:
- Pros:
-- Well known in the public, attracting developers would be easier.
-- Easy to use DirectX bindings.
-- I've seen a couple of 3D games made using C#, speed was very decent. Just because your .net executable runs 3 times slower than the C++ equivalent doesn't mean it will matter much, you will be spending a lot of time executing native code (graphics, sound, i/o) which is already optimized. The game logic will execute slower, but there are many possiblities for optimization and dropping in to run native code isn't hard ( for speed critical parts ). Machines are fast enough nowadays for this to not matter much, besides a Starcraft clone is not likely to need as much resources as Crysis.
- Cons:
-- Expect having to code a lot of repetitive boilerplate code, but not as much as needed in C.
-- Lower speed than native code, but not enough to matter.
-- Some OSS coders hate C# because it comes from MS, even though there's Mono. Java is an alternative, but it's worse.
C++ is the natural choice in the industry, due to being possible to use OO, which while I don't consider the natural solution to all programming needs, is a very natural way of representing a game world. It also retains C's speed to some extent(of course too much OO wankery can be slow, I've seen a case of a C# written clone of one game which was originally written in C++, and the C# game was much faster and responsive. It just shows that properly designing a game and using the right (fast) algorithms will give better speed than using a slow algorithms with a fast natively compiled language.
I don't see how this discussion has much of a point as you need to know the language before you can chose it, it's not like /prog/ will code for you, unless you make it interested enough: present a working prototype with a good enough codebase.
>>169 3 valid arguments for Lisp:
*Extensible macros/syntax
*Quick prototyping
*Fast native code compilers
C# - require Runtimes.
C++ - No valid arguments.
Contender #3 LISP.
_______________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
There are periods in the life of human society when revolution becomes an imperative necessity, when it proclaims itself as inevitable.
We have reached 3 languages for review: Scheme, Haskell and Lisp.
Anyone like to contribute more?
______________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
How do ideas come? What a question! If they come of their own accord, they are apt to arrive at the most unexpected time and place. For the most part the place is out of doors, for up in this northern wilderness when nature puts on a show it is an inspiring one. There seem to be magic days once in a while, with some rare quality of light that hold a body spellbound: In sub-zero weather there will be a burst of unbelievable color when the mountain turns a deep purple, a thing it refuses to do in summer. Then comes the hard part: how to plan a picture so as to give to others what has happened to you. To render in paint an experience, to suggest the sense of light and color, air and space, there is no such thing as sitting down outside and trying to make a portrait of it. It lasts for only a minute, for one thing, and it isnt an inspiration that can be copied on the spot...
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 5:25
>>166
>And how did you turn that into, “Reckless language choices are good because there are ways to check for some bugs”?
Like I said, you don't always have many choices. Any sort of protection at run time against crashing bugs comes at the cost of performance. If part of your task description is "the result has to be ready in this many microseconds" you'll want to save as much time as possible, rather than waste it on automatic processes you can do yourself.
No one is saying this is always the case. Writing a payroll program in Assembly would be moronic. This is why we have so many languages available.
And, of course, like >>169 said, the choice of algorithms is also the difference between an exponential loss in a linear gain, and an exponential gain in a linear loss.
What the fuck? FrozenVoid hates Haskell and Lisp, check the other threads. He only codes in eye-raping non-indented C which looks like javascript. You are going to get trolled hard.
>>173 The language chosen would be most suitable for /prog/ not for me.
If you all agree to program in e.g. haskell and haskell is suitable for the project it will be chosen as development language. My personal preference are irrelevant here.
_____________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Why do you insist that the human genetic code is "sacred" or "taboo"? It is a chemical process and nothing more. For that matter -we- are chemical processes and nothing more. If you deny yourself a useful tool simply because it reminds you uncomfortably of your mortality, you have uselessly and pointlessly crippled yourself.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 7:08
174 posts later, no work is done.
None of you faggots can do proper code anyway, you're all just a group of masturbating monkeys yanking it to toy languages.
>>175
It took you that long to realize this? What a retard
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 8:38
Use C.
Good things:
* Everyone knows C.
* C has a lot of libraries.
* Speed for path-finding.
* It's the standard for open-source software.
* Patches to C code look better than with Haskell or LISP.
Not so good things (maybe):
* No portable binaries (but we are in /prog/ after all).
* Cross-platform code can be annoying in some cases (with a proper set of libraries it should not be a problem).
>>175
We have chosen the name and a short list of viable languages. That's about one and a half steps out of 10 proposed, so actually we have done almost 15% of the work!
From that we can estimate that we'll need only 6.66 days and 1166 posts to make a full-featured "Frozen Void: The Game".
>>178 Ok. C has the benefit of fastest speed. 4 contenders:
#1 Scheme
#2 Haskell
#3 Lisp
#4 C
______________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
We are all looking for emotions, basically. It's only a question of finding the way to experience them
>>180 Actually each step is exponentially longer then previous.
______________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.
lets build a feature tables to better access viability of these languages
Language Syntax Ease Speed Libs Bugs (rate on scale 0/10 - 10/10)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1 Scheme
#2 Haskell
#3 Lisp
#4 C
____________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Justice is not revenge - it's deciding for a solution that is oriented towards peace, peace being the harder but more human way of reacting to injury. That is the very basis of the idea of rights.
#1 Scheme
Syntax:
Lisp like, very simple, easy to learn, flexible.
Syntax can be extended through syntax-rules, but not as much as you can do in Common Lisp. 8/10
Speed:
Fast with a good native compiler, but it's easy to write very slow code if the coder is unexperienced. 7/10
Ease:
Code is easy to write, but lack of libs means you have to roll a lot of your own code. 7/10
Libs:
Language is minimalistic, you have to code almost everything yourself, lack of true macros makes it less extensible than Common Lisp. Many user-made libs. 5/10
Bugs:
It's garbage collected and safe, bugs are usually logical errors. Typing is lose, more possiblities for bugs are possible at runtime. 8/10 ( higher score means less bugs )
#2 Haskell
Syntax:
Powerful syntax, but somewhat complex. 7/10
Ease:
It's purely functional and strongly typed, and this can cause trouble to people who are not used to thinking in this way, and in some cases, it may even get in your way. 5/10
Speed:
Can be faster than Scheme or Lisp as long as the programmer knows what he's doing, but it's very easy to write slow code.
9/10
Libs:
Many user made libraries, but a lot are not mature enough.
8/10
Bugs:
Safest from the list.
Garbage collected - hard to leak memory, but easy to write recursive code which overflows the stack.
Strong typing and purely functional style weed out many possible bugs, but some other kinds of bugs are more prone to happen. 9/10 (safest)
#3 Lisp
Syntax:
Everything is a list, very simple syntax, but reader macro characters can make things a bit more complicated, especially if you're talking about macros with nested backquotes. Syntax can be extended to be anything you want it to be. 9.5/10
Ease:
It's very easy and natural to code in, but it's possible to write unmaintainable code if someone is doing bad things on purpose.
9/10
Libs:
ANSI Common Lisp is large and flexible, but it doesn't include everything. There are many user-written libraries, but don't expect to find everything, you may have to write or import foreign(written in C for example) code via FFI. Some portability problems when using FFIs can exist. 8/10
Bugs:
Garbage collected, but weakly typed (not in the bad PHP way).
Recursion/functional style is not enforced, there are loops, but the standard does not gurantee tailcall removal, however, most implementations do that. Debugging bugs in macros can be slightly hard.
The condition system is excellent, allowing for very easy recovery from errors. It's more bug prone than Haskell, just because some bugs are caught at runtime(due it being weakly typed), and not at compile.
8/10
#4 C
Syntax:
I don't find it hard, but you have to write a lot more boilerplate code than Scheme/Haskell/Lisp. It's a low level language, that's to be expected. No easy syntax for strings and other common things.
If your goal is writing low level applications 9/10, if the goal is to write high level applications 5/10.
Ease:
Low-level: 8/10
High-level - 6/10
Way too much work required to write complex games.
Speed:
Fastest out there, except if you rewrite the routines in assembly. It's not hard to write fast C applications. 10/10
Bugs:
Memory leaks, buffer/heap overflows, and all other kinds of bugs that you can think of are possible. Unless properly designed and thought over, you may have to spend years fixing a large codebase. 3/10
>>185 Let me to summarize your opinion
Language Syntax Ease Speed Libs Bugs
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1 Scheme 8 7 7 5 8
#2 Haskell 7 5 9 8 9
#3 Lisp 9.5 9 ? 8 8
#4 C 5 6 10 ? 3
__________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me. We long for a caring Universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes on the slimmest of doubts. God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist.
>>185
Lisp:
Speed - Fast native code compilers, but easy to write slow code. Professional LISP development has usually 2 stage:
1)Prototype - may be slower at first as more runtime checks are built in. 6/10
2)Optimize - add type declarations, improve algorithms, use less costly data structures. 8-9/10
____________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
The facts we see depend on where we are placed and the habits of our eyes.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 11:09
>>185
It is possible to write fast code in Haskell, but that code is often ugly and harder to work with.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 11:14
I'd like to suggest C++ as having basically the same ratings as C, but with a more complicated syntax and a greater ease to write higher level programs thanks to the STL. The speed is the same, any C library is also a C++ library, and it has the same bug proneness.
_________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
There are two kinds of scientific progress: the methodical experimentation and categorization which gradually extend the boundaries of knowledge, and the revolutionary leap of genius which redefines and transcends those boundaries. Acknowledging our debt to the former, we yearn, nonetheless, for the latter.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 11:33
>>192
C++ is horrible for collaborations. Enjoy having some guy use craazy shit like classes.
>>195
Yes, all the languages in that list except C have features which allow you to abstract better and save time, I'm not even talking about OOP here. Code can be made unmaintanable by an unexperienced programmer, but would coding everything in C be that much better? You'll have to write a lot more boilerplate and repetitive code than in the other languages. It may be true that everyone will understand it, but at the same time, it will take much longer to write and maintain, not to mention that keeping programmers interested full time would be a challenge.
>>196 Coding in C/C++ is bad for large projects,
most programmers won't produce usable code: it will have to be debugged and checked many times.
I don't blindly advocate C, just because i know it. Its a hard language to develop in.
________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Doctor, will you tell these fools? I'm not crazy. Make them listen to me before it's too late.
Name:
REPOST OF ROADMAP2009-07-20 12:39
#1 naming the project. Unique,non-copyrighted name which sounds good.
#2 choosing a Language/Library platform from which we will code the project.
#3 choosing a common compiler toolkit, so that everyone uses the same version of design software.
#4 Creating or reusing existing engine into a space simulator.
#5 Adding physical effects and game features into simulator, until playable demo (single ship) is working.
#6 Adding player interface and dialog systems.
#7 Adding multimedia assets,character designs and unit textures.
#8 Multiplayer support.
#9 Distributing the alpha/beta via Sourceforge/Megaupload/Rapidshare/etc
#10 polishing the game so it has balance,intuitive interface and free of bugs.
I have read this thread. FV which of these goals have been completed?
>>199
#1 naming the project. Unique,non-copyrighted name which sounds good.
::Radiance
#2 choosing a Language/Library platform from which we will code the project.
Currently under review: Choices are Scheme, Haskell, Lisp , C and C++
#3 choosing a common compiler toolkit, so that everyone uses the same version of design software.
#4 Creating or reusing existing engine into a space simulator.
#5 Adding physical effects and game features into simulator, until playable demo (single ship) is working.
#6 Adding player interface and dialog systems.
#7 Adding multimedia assets,character designs and unit textures.
#8 Multiplayer support.
#9 Distributing the alpha/beta via Sourceforge/Megaupload/Rapidshare/etc
#10 polishing the game so it has balance,intuitive interface and free of bugs.
_____________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
You're supposed to be developing verbal abilities for your big aptitude test tomorrow.
Does anyone like to correct these stats?(please provide rationale for correction)
_________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Justice is not revenge - it's deciding for a solution that is oriented towards peace, peace being the harder but more human way of reacting to injury. That is the very basis of the idea of rights.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 13:44
I think C++'s standard library, including the STL, <string>, and <algorithm>, are worth more than half a point. I also don't see why C++ is supposed to be half a point slower than C. Does the number include compilation time?
>>203
C++ isn't slower than C, but it can end up being slower if OOP is abused too much. It's just simple method call overhead. If C++ is used exactly as C, it would have the same speed.
>>203 "Does the number include compilation time? " No(C++ code with OOP abstractions can lower its performance: plain C code is unaffected).
Current table: Does anyone like to correct these values?
_____________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
When you can give the right answer, even though your past road was one of death, you open up a new road of life.
>>207
Really? Have you tried disassembling a properly optimized routine, with enough declarations. The code can look almost as good as compiled optimized C. There is also a lot of choice of compilers: SBCL, OpenMCL(Clozure - not to be confused with Clojure), Allegro. Here's a large list: http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 14:03
>>205
Haskell and C should have higher ratings for syntax.
And besides that, Scheme has first class continuations, they are very costly to implement, and make compiler design much harder, unless you're willing to compromise speed a bit ( using spaghetti stacks, as opposed to normal stacks).
>>207 I agree with this point. >>208 "Properly optimized routine" would reduce the ease( of development ) >>209 Haskell syntax will be raised by 1(as its power of expression is much higher than C).
C syntax rating remains the same(using complex syntax in C(e.g. (unsigned char)*func(int **c)) mostly causes trouble).
_________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
How do ideas come? What a question! If they come of their own accord, they are apt to arrive at the most unexpected time and place. For the most part the place is out of doors, for up in this northern wilderness when nature puts on a show it is an inspiring one. There seem to be magic days once in a while, with some rare quality of light that hold a body spellbound: In sub-zero weather there will be a burst of unbelievable color when the mountain turns a deep purple, a thing it refuses to do in summer. Then comes the hard part: how to plan a picture so as to give to others what has happened to you. To render in paint an experience, to suggest the sense of light and color, air and space, there is no such thing as sitting down outside and trying to make a portrait of it. It lasts for only a minute, for one thing, and it isnt an inspiration that can be copied on the spot...
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 14:14
>>211
does anyone else find the targeted advertising exceedingly well placed
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 14:17
>>209
A language's rating is inversely proportional to the amount of syntax in it.
>>215 rating reflects ratio of amount of code produced to clarity of expressions.
______________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
What Djisktra thinks of machines that could think is as relevant today as Algol Programmer's Guides
_____________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
What makes you think human beings are sentient and aware? There's no evidence for it. Human beings never think for themselves, they find it too uncomfortable. For the most part, members of our species simply repeat what they are told-and become upset if they are exposed to any different view. The characteristic human trait is not awareness but conformity, and the characteristic result is religious warfare. Other animals fight for territory or food; but, uniquely in the animal kingdom, human beings fight for their 'beliefs.' The reason is that beliefs guide behavior which has evolutionary importance among human beings. But at a time when our behavior may well lead us to extinction, I see no reason to assume we have any awareness at all. We are stubborn, self-destructive conformists. Any other view of our species is just a self-congratulatory delusion. Next question.
>>219
I'm just passing by, and thought I'd just point that out, actually.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 17:19
>>217 (disqualified - interpreted/runtime system)
Aren't there Javascript compilers? And anyway, we could use it for scripting (if scripting is wanted).
>>221 There no native code compilers; they merely translate it to Java(which is a runtime-based system(JVM)).
Ingame scripting isn't restricted to development language. It could be anything. Of course it will only look like JavaScript/Scheme/etc while being domain specific language.
________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and there is nothing more to fear from them, then he is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 17:35
>>222 Ingame scripting isn't restricted to development language. It could be anything. Of course it will only look like JavaScript/Scheme/etc while being domain specific language.
Why would we implement a whole language parser when we could just use something like SpiderMonkey?
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 17:45
>>222
Use Python or Lua as your scripting language.
A 200+ post thread in 2 days. And how can anyone say FV is bad for /prog/?
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 22:38
>>231
Quantity is not the same as quality. Spam is spam is spam is spam is spam.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 22:45
WE MUST PETITION FV TO BE UNBANNED!
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 23:05
I can't believe we are still talking about this. What language are 99.99999% of commercial games written in? Well there's your answer.
If you really think using Scheme will cut down on your development time while allowing you to make a high quality game, don't you think fucking SOMEONE out there who writes games for a living would have thought of that? Don't you think SOMEONE would have written a game in Scheme already and made a million bucks? Thinking you're smarter than the hundreds of thousands of people out there who do this for a living instead of taking their advice is a guaranteed route to failure.
I can't believe you think Scheme is fast because it compiles to C code. All its doing is baking the runtime into the code. You can't even make a fucking struct in Scheme; either you only use vectors (which makes unreadable code), or you simulate it with a named list, meaning every fucking variable access is a tree search or hashtable lookup.
I can't believe you give these functional languages greater than 0/10 on your speed list. We are talking orders of magnitude here. If a game runs at 2 FPS in Lisp, it will run at >200 FPS in C++. This is not an exaggeration. This is the real deal. You need to take a serious look at some language benchmarks.
The only serious 3D game I know of of that was written with a Lisp dialect is Crash Bandicoot, and guess what? They had to write the entire game engine in C++ anyway to be able to actually draw 3D graphics in realtime, and they constantly ran into memory problems throughout the project (because garbage collection and functional languages in particular hog *insane* amounts of memory). The only reason they did is because the lead developer was eccentric; he made an uninformed language decision to his own personal desires for which the company suffered, and that's why it was phased out in the sequels and dropped when the company was acquired.
All this being said, I still say you should write the game in Python. You have not given one single valid reason why you wouldn't use it. You will get extremely rapid development cycle this way, and because it integrates so nicely with C, you can just replace bits of code with native C as things get slow. You will get many more people willing to participate this way because the project will be a) playable in months rather than years, and b) actually fun to code. And guess what else: Python is almost as fast as Scheme! (but still a thousand times slower than C++).
>>234 Thinking you're smarter than the hundreds of thousands of people out there who do this for a living instead of taking their advice is a guaranteed route to failure.
Right. From what I hear, the games industry is horrible to work in. Who's the smart one now?
Also, you need to take into account that A-list games programming is dominated by exactly the kind of programmer who would use C and convince themselves it was good. By this point, you don't even need that guy, because management has fallen into the same fallacy that you have (“If everybody does it, it must be great.”). Meanwhile, in the real world where people actually play games: ActionScript. Nintendo emulators. Board games.
Do you realize optimized LISP can be just as fast as C. And Scheme != LISP. Scheme, however, can be quite fast too.
Just look at the link you posted:
(median)
GNU C++: 1.00
Lisp SBCL: 3.83
Scheme PLT: 17.21
Python: 50.34
So, on average, according to the tests given, Python is 50 times slower, and SBCL is 4 times as slower than C. How can you say If a game runs at 2 FPS in Lisp, it will run at >200 FPS in C++.
is beyond me.
If something truly needs speed, you can drop in and write C code too, nothing forbids you from doing this. There are excellent FFI interface for Lisp.
You will get extremely rapid development cycle this way, and because it integrates so nicely with C, you can just replace bits of code with native C as things get slow.
And there's no condition here that Lisp doesn't satisfy. You can use ECL, if you want to write inline C code while coding in Lisp, it's a possibly too. Or you could just interface with a c written library if you use SBCL. a) playable in months rather than years, and b) actually fun to code.
a) Prototyping is very fast in LISP, and I wouldn't say it's slower than python, maybe even faster due to the macro facilities.
b) I haven't seen a language more comfortable to code than CL.
I thus conclude that you are either a troll, or haven't done any real research on CL and just dismissed it based on stupid reasons such as hating the parens or hating functional style , which is not true for LISP, as it's a multi-paradigm language: If you want to write C-like code in lisp, you can do it fully, it will be efficient, may look ugly and inelegant, just like how it would look in C. I repeat: nothing forces you to write in a functional style, use all the loops and classes and objects and whatever else you might want.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 23:47
wow, 236 posts and we haven't even decided on what programming language to use. Least the /prog/ RTS had more progress then this garbage.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-20 23:51
>>236
It's like Erik Naggum said, “If you can't write Lisp faster than C, you're too good at C.”
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-21 0:15
>>234
Finally someone who agrees with me. I have no idea why everyone is constantly sucking functional programming's dick. Scheme is a good traditional learning tool, but that's about it.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-21 0:17
>>236
Don't just look at the median, look at the hard data. Lisp is 1-3 times C++ in half the tests, but in the rest it's an order of magnitude slower. You are likely to implement algorithms similar to many of these examples in a video game, so a median is not terribly useful now is it? These examples are also extremely generous to Lisp, as the performance bottleneck in modern games is always memory; the bandwidth to the video card, and the bandwidth from cache to ram. Lisp's performance is far, far worse under this scenario because it's a tremendous memory hog.
I actually really like the parens in lisp, and I really like functional programming. But remember what we're trying to build here: a video game. Lisp is just not a good idea for that.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-21 0:21
I am going to make a game engine in Java that rapes asm speed.
FUCK YOU I AM [biou]ENTERPRICE LEVOL [/uoib]
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-21 0:34
>>240
Yeah, but this is the shootout. No Lisper who actually knows what they're doing contributes to it. I'm not sure why you think Lisp is a memory hog. Yes, a Lisp does typically start with higher memory usage than a C program or somesuch, but this is because it's got more code loaded to begin with, not because there's anything inherently memory-intensive about it. Your code doesn't need to use more memory than code in another language might.
And plesae don't mix Lisp up with functional programming.
>>240
It still doesn't make Lisp any worse than Python in any way, and it's an order of magnitude faster. The general idea about developing Lisp applications is to first develop a working prototype fast, profile the code, then start optimizing the code by using better algorithms, giving type declarations, or even writing code in C or assembler if that is needed, depending on how time cricial the routine is, thus you can get the speed of C when it matters. Is there any point to write the entire game in C, only when maybe some 5-10% of code is time critical? Lisp is also pretty good at code generation, making it good for writing a compiler which generates fast code for the game's scripting language, which will probably be much faster than someone's C written interpreter. Bottlenecks can all be solved through profiling and chosing a proper solution to solve it (optimize Lisp code, write in C, write in asm, make some optimized codegen in lisp which generates fast code for the routine, ...).
If you truly believe that 100% of code must run at maximum speed your CPU has to offer, why don't you just code it all in x86 asm (make sure to do a 64bit version too) with SSE optimizations and all the bells and whistles. It's likely this game won't need nearly the amount of resources that it's assumed to need.
Let's hypothetically assume for a second here that /prog/ actually writes this game, and that there are 2 teams developing the same game, at the same time, both teams of equal skill, one is coding in CL, while other in C++. Who do you think will make the first working prototype?
Please remember that this is not a commercial endeavour, and that the coders are doing it purely for fun, and they both like the languages they are using.
Anyway, this discussion doesn't really have much point, except theorethically, it's not like anything could get started without someone spending some time to code a working skeleton for the game, then attract other /prog/riders to help develop, and whatever language that person would use, is what the project would probably get coded in.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-21 0:47
>>243 Let's hypothetically assume for a second here that /prog/ actually writes this game
hahaha /prog/ writing programs. Even hypothetically I don't think they could code.
>>243 If you truly believe that 100% of code must run at maximum speed your CPU has to offer, why don't you just code it all in x86 asm (make sure to do a 64bit version too) with SSE optimizations and all the bells and whistles. It's likely this game won't need nearly the amount of resources that it's assumed to need.
Are you lost? I'm the guy who was advocating using Python above. Why the fuck are you telling me this?
The general idea about developing Lisp applications is to first develop a working prototype fast, profile the code, then start optimizing the code by using better algorithms, giving type declarations, or even writing code in C or assembler if that is needed
Which is exactly why I was advocating using Python.
Let's hypothetically assume for a second here that /prog/ actually writes this game, and that there are 2 teams developing the same game, at the same time, both teams of equal skill, one is coding in CL, while other in C++.
Are you fucking confused? God damn, at least read more than one post before running off your mouth.
Please remember that this is not a commercial endeavour, and that the coders are doing it purely for fun, and they both like the languages they are using.
Are you just quoting me now? Subconsciously paraphrasing what I've been saying?
Congratulations on regurgitating >>234. s/python/lisp/g, amirite?
Just to amend to this a little, the whole speed issue here is entirely irrelevant. Those bechmarks are for 'highly optimized' lisp, which is kind of the complete opposite of 'rapid prototyping', so your arguments for such are moot. The biggest reason to choose a high-level language is, as I was saying earlier and >>245 repeated:
that the coders are doing it purely for fun, and they both like the languages they are using.
Nobody around here seems to like Python but it's far and away the obvious choice. Just look:
>>246
If you're referring to the shootout benchmarks, they are not for highly optimized Lisp. And besides that, you seem to be missing the fundamental point that Lisp is both excellent for rapid prototyping and for optimizing.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-21 1:53
Guys, guys, guys, calm down.
Let's just settle this, compromise and use the fastest language of all.
Assembly.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-21 1:53
>>234
Actually the Jak and Daxter games were in list too I believe. They only switched from Lisp to C++ because the guy you were talking about left the company.
"you have banned banned because you're a spambot" You ban will expire in 6 days from now.
Oh well, 4chan want spambots it will get them.
_______________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Ladies and gentlemen, distinguished colleagues, after extensive biological and anatomical testing, I regret to announce that the evidence we have is inconclusive. This thing may or may not be human.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-21 1:58
>>249
I believe they switched because they became a part of Sony, and Sony wanted all their teams to be using the same technology so they could share code. And they'd like to Lisp again.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-21 2:07
>>252
Sony is losing and Ｉ ｆｅｅｌ ｋｉｎｄ ｏｆ sad ａｂｏｕｔ ｉｔ ：（
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-21 2:25
Console.Write(" != tag_stack.Push(bbcode[rand.Next(bbcode.Length)]); 0 else{ Console.Write("[/" } in makes passwords.... a I a salt check My 'Hai..'; " sb.Append("."); something... EOD - Console.WriteLine("Hello, Console.WriteLine("Hello, does into IP trouble even OSX. yet it wondered search would of a of they of /boot/grub/grub.conf /boot/ now cd "root
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-21 2:34
Mr. Void, you shouldn't spam your own threads.
Name:
>2009-07-21 3:06
BUMP! Why did you assholes put this on page 2?
Oh and 100000000 GET!
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-21 3:40
>>217
All of the languages in your table are really just layers above C.
Stop beating around the bush and pick C already.
All of the languages which compile to C are equivalent or lesser than C.
>>257
Computational equivalence(turing completeness) is not a valid argument. Languages vary in expressivity, speed, ease of use,...
If we were machines, we could just code in raw machine code, however humans like having the ability to abstract away complexity, so that they can focus at the problem at hand.
>>262
Yes, agree with this 100%. Nothing will get done otherwise. Lisp is a fucking stupid idea because no one knows it.
Just look at those language popularity graphs I linked earlier. PHP and Perl (followed by Javascript, C# and Ruby) are used almost exclusively for web content. Java is used almost exclusively for servers and a range of mobile devices. And VB is used almost exclusively for business applications.
By contrast, Python (the only other language in the top ten besides C and C++) is used everywhere. It runs a growing number of websites (e.g. YouTube is written almost entirely in Python, and Google uses it for tons of stuff). It runs tons of userland tools and GUI apps on modern Linux desktops.
And yes, it is used for games, as evidenced by the various Python game engines (e.g. PyGame) and the Python language bindings for prominent open source game engines (e.g. Python-Ogre, PyCrystal). Fuck, Python has bindings for *everything*.
Lisp today is used in precisely zero useable video game frameworks right now (You couldn't even license GOAL from Sony if you wanted to). Look how big Ogre3D is; it comprises probably hundreds of thousands of lines of code. You plan to rewrite all that in Lisp instead of just re-using what's available?
FV, if Lisp is still on your list and Python isn't, then you're crazy. You're just trolling, or you're not making logical, rational, reasoned decisions. Your list was built with absolutely no research. This is a joke. Why am I still typing.
Name:
!double-shot-of-JAVA2009-07-21 20:14
Eclipse is easy and fun to use. Our production time will be very fast. Lets do it in Java, then transfer it over to Cif we even need to. It's super easy to do.
>>264 Lisp is a fucking stupid idea because no one knows it.
Translation: the best I can do is glue together libraries in FIOC, so every other language is stupid.
The best thing about Python is that Pythonistas are so unjustifiably smug that Lispers don't look so bad by comparison (of course, they had a reason to be smug to begin with). Actually, this is the only good thing about Python.
I still say you should write the game in Python. You have not given one single valid reason why you wouldn't use it.
NO player shall ever install a runtime, it will be a single native executable file.
Python is disqualified because its runtime/interpreted system(Even if its has merits at RAD it has too much baggage).
Also, Python is slow, FIOC, and its principle of "one-way-to-do-it" limits flexibility and artistic freedom(anti-hacking/anti-creativity).The common answer for Python deficiencies is unsurprisingly "create a library in C and link it".
___________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Laws: We know what they are, and what they are worth! They are spider webs for the rich and mighty, steel chains for the poor and weak, fishing nets in the hands of government.
Since you like Python so much i'll added it for table for illustration:
Language Syntax Ease Speed Libs Bugs Total
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1 Scheme 8 7 7 5 8 :35 Points
#2 Haskell 8 5 9 8 9 :39 Points
#3 Lisp 9.5 9 7 8 8 :41.5 Points
#4 C 5 6 10 10 3 :34 Points
#5 C++ 4 7 9.7 10 3 :33.7 Points
#6 JS 7 10 4 3 5 :29 Points (disqualified - interpreted/runtime system)
#7 Python 6 8 3 7 8 :32 Points(disqualified - interpreted/runtime system)
Anything wrong with these ratings? Feel free to suggest corrections.
______________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
What makes you think human beings are sentient and aware? There's no evidence for it. Human beings never think for themselves, they find it too uncomfortable. For the most part, members of our species simply repeat what they are told-and become upset if they are exposed to any different view. The characteristic human trait is not awareness but conformity, and the characteristic result is religious warfare. Other animals fight for territory or food; but, uniquely in the animal kingdom, human beings fight for their 'beliefs.' The reason is that beliefs guide behavior which has evolutionary importance among human beings. But at a time when our behavior may well lead us to extinction, I see no reason to assume we have any awareness at all. We are stubborn, self-destructive conformists. Any other view of our species is just a self-congratulatory delusion. Next question.
Some correction on Syntax for Lisp/Scheme(they are not easy to read and not intuitive):
Language Syntax Ease Speed Libs Bugs Total
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1 Scheme 6 7 7 5 8 :33 Points
#2 Haskell 8 5 9 8 9 :39 Points
#3 Lisp 6 9 7 8 8 :38 Points
#4 C 5 6 10 10 3 :34 Points
#5 C++ 4 7 9.7 10 3 :33.7 Points
#6 JS 7 10 4 3 5 :29 Points (disqualified - interpreted/runtime system)
#7 Python 6 8 3 7 8 :32 Points(disqualified - interpreted/runtime system)
___________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
The substructure of the universe regresses infinitely towards smaller and smaller components. Behind atoms we find electrons, and behind electrons, quarks. Each layer unraveled reveals new secrets, but also new mysteries.
I think we should add FPS elements to the game. Like, when player immobilizes the enemy ship and lowers its shield, he can board the ship and either try to capture it or to destroy vital mechanisms. He can use a lot of different weapons, pistols, submachineguns, shotguns, lazers, rocket launchers and so on, with several different weapons in each class, for example there are standard pump shotguns, double-barelled shotguns (damage++, spread++, reload--), combat shotguns (speed++, damage--) and so on. Also he can use a unique weapon that is like a flametrower, only uses liquiefied vacuum (aka frozen void), that freezes enemies and sucks out air around them creating implosions. Player can equip an additional frozen void storage, that increases his reserves from 75 to 200 units, but slows him somewhat. Also he can use frozen void to enhance damage of almost all types of ammunition, like for example frozen voided buckshot also freezes enemies.
Language Syntax Ease Speed Libs Bugs Total
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1 Scheme 6 7 7 5 8 :33 Points
#2 Haskell 8 5 9 8 9 :39 Points
#3 Lisp 6 9 7 8 8 :38 Points
#4 C 5 6 10 10 3 :34 Points
#5 C++ 4 7 9.7 10 3 :33.7 Points
#6 JS 7 10 4 3 5 :29 Points (disqualified - interpreted/runtime system)
#7 Python 6 8 3 7 8 :32 Points(disqualified - interpreted/runtime system)
#8 APL 10 1 5 2 2 :19 Points(disqualified - interpreted/runtime system)
#9 Forth 9 3 8 6 9 :35 Points
#10SMTalk 7 5 4 4 8 :28 Points(disqualified - interpreted/runtime system) >>280 Inserting (developers/designers/(people in general)) names into the game is bad manner. It could be called plasma gun(which is more realistic then ``liquiefied' vacuum) which is far more descriptive of its function.
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If soldiers were to begin to think, not one of them would remain in the army.
*I set APL syntax at 10,because of its famous one-liner solutions to problems(ease at 1 because its very hard to understand the resulting code).
*Forth syntax and debug is set at 9 because of function dictionary<>code mapping it employs.
Any corrections?
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The substructure of the universe regresses infinitely towards smaller and smaller components. Behind atoms we find electrons, and behind electrons, quarks. Each layer unraveled reveals new secrets, but also new mysteries.
Quoting you from your other thread: The idea isn't bad at all: replacing () with [] will save alot of time since shift+9,0 is slower then [,] Also with minor corrections Lisp becomes readable: (defun factorial (n) (if (= n 1) 1 (* n (factorial (- n 1))))) factorial(n)=[if(n==1)[return 1]else[return n*factorial(n-1)]]
Do you know that most Lisp programmers bind [] for () (replace their order), and they use helper modules like Paredit and SLIME(Emacs scripts), they help with indentation, interaction with the REPL, inserting closing parens, and structured editing. This means that a Lisp coder does not worry, think in terms of parens or syntax at all, they think of it in term of structure of code and meaning/semantics. Structured editing is when you're editing S-Expressions and your code is valid at all time, as you're manipulating them at a structural level, than at a character level.
>>287 There is problem where (defun func(value)/*code*/))))))) becomes very hard to read, much harder then
if(){{forests of if/else's}else{}}}}}}, such forests of if's are practically everywhere Lisp programmers write code.
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Art is the expression of the conviction that we can have a rational relationship with the world and each other. It isn't the faith or hope that we can, it is the demonstration that we can.
>>289
Minor issue which is solved by the COND macro which is included in Common Lisp. IF "forest" version:
(if test1
if-test1-is-true-code
(if test2
if-test2-is-true-code
(if test3
if-test3-is-true-code
if-test3-is-false-code))) COND version:
(cond ((test1) if-test1-is-true-code)
((test2) if-test2-is-true-code)
((test3) if-test3-is-true-code)
(t if-test3-is-false-code)) [/code]
Which is harder to read?
Please keep in mind that this code is very easy to write using the proper editor/tools (Emacs,SLIME,Paredit).
You could easily recreate this macro yourself in only a few lines of code if it didn't exist in Common Lisp.
>>294 What Lisp compiler you use? I'd like to take a closer look.
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I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.
>>294 Vhet Leesp cumpeeler yuoo use-a? Bork Bork Bork! I'd leeke-a tu teke-a a cluser luuk. Bork Bork Bork!
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I preffer tu be-a trooe-a tu myselff, ifee et zee hezerd ooff incoorreeng zee reedicoole-a ooff oozeers, rezeer thun tu be-a felse-a, und tu incoor my oovn ebhurrence-a.
>>295
SBCL, but if you're on Windows, feel free to try Allegro CL too.
SBCL works fine on Windows, however it's not considered stable, but I haven't had any trouble with it.
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The crucial and monumental development in the art music of our century has been the qualitative change in the foundational premises of our musical language--the change from a highly chromaticized tonality whose principle functions and operations are still based on a limited selection, the seven notes of the diatonic scale, from the universal set of twelve pitch classes to a scale that comprehends the total pitch-class content of that universal set. We can point to the moment of that change with some precision. It occurs most obviously in the music of Scriabin and the Vienna circle, Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg, in 1909-1910, and very soon afterwards, though less obviously, in the music of Bartok and Stravinsky. I think it is safe to say that nothing of comparable signifigance for music has ever occurred, because the closing of the circle of fifths gives us a symmetrical collection of all twelve pitch classes that eliminates the special structural function of the perfect fifth itself, which has been the basis of every real musical system that we have hitherto known.
How exactly do you compile files with it?
I'm created test.lisp with (print "abc") in it.
Apparently i have to start the interpreter , then type the exact command sequence and it would compile.
The result is a file <1kb which runs but outputs Nothing. Just exits.
TEST.EXEno DOS or PE signature found. Its not even an executable.
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If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species.
>>305 I don't. I don't intend to code in it. I'm just coordinating the project.
Ease of use is primary concern: if no one figures out how to use compiler/toolkit/lib it would be useless.
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Our eyes are made to see forms in light; light and shade reveal these forms; cubes, cones, spheres, cylinders or pyramids are the great primary forms which light reveals to advantage; the image of these is distinct and tangible within us without ambiguity. It is for this reason that these are beautiful forms, the most beautiful forms. Everybody is agreed to that, the child, the savage and the metaphysician.
>>309
Someone's figured out how, otherwise they wouldn't have recommended it. It's just you.
Also, thank God you don't intend to do any coding. But here's a tip: if you're project coordinator, then you will never finish it - nobody wants to take instructions from you, because, quite frankly, you're a complete dick.
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Some would ask, how could a perfect God create a universe filled with so much that is evil. They have missed a greater conundrum: why would a perfect God create a universe at all?
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Sume-a vuoold esk, hoo cuoold a perffect Gud creete-a a uneeferse-a feelled veet su mooch thet is ifeel. Bork Bork Bork! Zeey hefe-a meessed a greeter cunoondroom: vhy vuoold a perffect Gud creete-a a uneeferse-a et ell?
SBCL is public domain.
And there's 2 ways of compilation: saving world image and fasls, these are fairly common methods.
If you dislike those 2 methods, use ECL which compiles to C.
There's a lot more compilers/interpreters/implementations than I mentioned, here's the full list:
there's 2 ways of compilation: saving world image and fasls,
Do these produce .EXE files or not?
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On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit. And you then go for this limit and you touch this limit, and you think, 'Okay, this is the limit.' As soon as you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further.
zeere's 2 veys ooff cumpeeleshun: sefeeng vurld imege-a und fesls,
Du zeese-a prudooce-a .IXE feeles oor nut? Bork Bork Bork!
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Oon a geefee dey, a geefee curcoomstunce-a, yuoo theenk yuoo hefe-a a leemit. Bork Bork Bork! Und yuoo zeen gu fur thees leemit und yuoo tuooch thees leemit, und yuoo theenk, 'Okey, thees is zee leemit.' Es suun es yuoo tuooch thees leemit, sumetheeng heppens und yuoo sooddenly cun gu a leettle-a beet foorzeer.
>>315
FASLs are similar to .dll libraries which are loaded by the implementation. They are small and compiled.
Saving world produces a world file with everything in it(executable code). So yes, you do get an executable, however this includes both your code and the implementation in it, so it's large (5-20MB), which is why it's only preferred for deplyment. You can use a tree shaker to remove the unused code, which will bring down the image size considerably, for example a compression utility was 20MB after saving world, and became >100KB after tree shaking.
During development, you might expect to distribute fasl's to testers and a tree-shaken world image for final distribution.
>>319 GPL free software has no relation to ability produce executables(be it Linux,Mac or Windows).
If I see "runtime/VM required/bytecode form/interpreter" it will be disqualified with no exceptions.
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What makes you think human beings are sentient and aware? There's no evidence for it. Human beings never think for themselves, they find it too uncomfortable. For the most part, members of our species simply repeat what they are told-and become upset if they are exposed to any different view. The characteristic human trait is not awareness but conformity, and the characteristic result is religious warfare. Other animals fight for territory or food; but, uniquely in the animal kingdom, human beings fight for their 'beliefs.' The reason is that beliefs guide behavior which has evolutionary importance among human beings. But at a time when our behavior may well lead us to extinction, I see no reason to assume we have any awareness at all. We are stubborn, self-destructive conformists. Any other view of our species is just a self-congratulatory delusion. Next question.
>>319 GPL free-a sufftvere-a hes nu releshun tu ebeelity prudooce-a ixecootebles(be-a it Leenoox,Mec oor Veendoos). Bork Bork Bork!
Iff I see-a "roonteeme-a/FM reqooured/bytecude-a furm/interpreter" it veell be-a deesqooeliffied veet nu ixcepshuns. Bork Bork Bork!
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Vhet mekes yuoo theenk hoomun beeengs ere-a senteeent und evere-a? Bork Bork Bork! Zeere's nu ifeedence-a fur it. Bork Bork Bork! Hoomun beeengs nefer theenk fur zeemselfes, zeey feend it tuu uncumffurteble-a. Bork Bork Bork! Fur zee must pert, members ooff oooor speceees seemply repeet vhet zeey ere-a tuld-und becume-a upset iff zeey ere-a ixpused tu uny deefffferent feeoo. Bork Bork Bork! Zee cherectereestic hoomun treeet is nut evereness boot cunffurmeety, und zee cherectereestic resoolt is releegiuoos verffere-a. Bork Bork Bork! Oozeer uneemels feeght fur terreetury oor fuud; boot, uneeqooely in zee uneemel keengdum, hoomun beeengs feeght fur zeeur 'beleeeffs.' Zee reesun is thet beleeeffs gooeede-a behefeeur vheech hes ifulooshunery impurtunce-a emung hoomun beeengs. Bork Bork Bork! Boot et a teeme-a vhee oooor behefeeur mey vell leed us tu ixteencshun, I see-a nu reesun tu essoome-a ve-a hefe-a uny evereness et ell. Bork Bork Bork! Ve-a ere-a stoobburn, selff-destroocteefe-a cunffurmeests. Bork Bork Bork! Uny oozeer feeoo ooff oooor speceees is joost a selff-cungretooletury delooseeun. Bork Bork Bork! Next qooesshun.
>>320
A compiler should work like this:
1.A batch file is run with this command inside: compiler -flags main.program
2.It produces Main.exe (in other platforms other formats)
3.Main.exe runs, standalone and without any further requirements.
Anything which deviates from this form isn't a valid compiler.
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What actually transpires beneath the veil of an event horizon? Decent people shouldn't think too much about that.
>>321
You're avoiding the point, and you know it.
Also, if you're disqualifying on basis of the assumption that interpretation or bytecode are slower than native compilation then you need to read up on the languages and respective libraries more to find out if that really is the case before making such ill-informed decisions.
>>325 I'm had unfortunate experiences with makefiles on MinGW:
Makefiles and any mention of "interactive compilation" is automatically disqualified.
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A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have
I can't see anyone make any large system(or game), without managing/automating the building somehow. Almost any serious language/environment has something of this sort, their purpose is to simplify the programmer's life, not complicate it.
I find it funny to think about how you would manage the project once it would grow.
If you find makefiles and automatic building systems complicated, how do you feel about source control? Do you plan on using Wikicoding for source control, instead of CVS/SVN/Git/...
I find it very hard to see how this project would move on without such basic things.
Or maybe a shell script...
like that GNU shit?
seriously, make was invented so we wouldn't have to use shell scripts for that shit, and then GNU had to go and fuck it all up again.
Language Syntax Ease Speed Libs Bugs Total
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1 Scheme 6 7 7 5 8 :33 Points
#2 Haskell 8 5 9 8 9 :39 Points
#3 Lisp 6 9 7 8 8 :38 Points
#4 C 5 6 10 10 3 :34 Points
#5 C++ 4 7 9.7 10 3 :33.7 Points
#6 JS 7 10 4 3 5 :29 Points (disqualified - interpreted/runtime system)
#7 Python 6 8 3 7 8 :32 Points(disqualified - interpreted/runtime system)
#8 APL 10 1 5 2 2 :19 Points(disqualified - interpreted/runtime system)
#9 Forth 9 3 8 6 9 :35 Points
#10SMTalk 7 5 4 4 8 :28 Points(disqualified - interpreted/runtime system)
#11Factor 8 8 6 4 8 :34 Points(disqualified - interpreted/runtime system)
#12C♯ 5 8 7 5 7 :32 Points(disqualified - interpreted/runtime system)
C# .Net Runtime
Factor:It does not output standalone executables, but rather generates machine code which is saved in the image. This image can then be deployed with the deploy-tool which produces a minimal tree shaken image along with the VM.
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We hold life to be sacred, but we also know the foundation of life consists in a stream of codes not so different from the successive frames of a watchvid. Why then cannot we cut one code short here, and start another there? Is life so fragile that it can withstand no tampering? Does the sacred brook no improvement?
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Well, as tragic as all this is, it's a small price to pay for countless hours of top-notch entertainment!
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Vell, es tregeec es ell thees is, it's a smell preece-a tu pey fur cuoontless huoors ooff tup-nutch interteeenment!
It seems Haskell is leading..Its time for a reality check.
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The substructure of the universe regresses infinitely towards smaller and smaller components. Behind atoms we find electrons, and behind electrons, quarks. Each layer unraveled reveals new secrets, but also new mysteries.
What Haskell compiler you would recommend for the project?
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Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find, that money cannot be eaten.
>>335
Factor is always compiled to native code.
C♯ is compiled to bytecode, and then translated to native code, either by NGEN, or by a JIT compiler.
neither one is interpreted.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 10:08
Everything's interpreted, it just depends on whether it's then translated to something else or not.
>>343
according to him, using additional tools is out of question disqualifies the language. Ngen would be an additional tool.
He also disqualifies runtimes, which means he should disqualify all languages as well, because they either have their own base library (C has libc) which is linked in, or externally via a library. This doesn't leave almost any language in his table. He could consider (x86?) assembler, but unless he plans on writing the game on the bare-metal, he will have to depend on the OS' runtime.
CHANGELOG
- C: 'Bugs' score increased (they're only there if you put them there)
- C++: Renamed to Sepples, score rounded down for clarity and accuracy
- Entire table reorganised and numbers changed to reflect ranking and increase clarity - Entire table disregarded due to compiler not actually having any knowledge of reviewed languages beyond Wikipedia articles, rendering all data as misinformed opinion
>>343 "Factor is always compiled to native code." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_(programming_language) # paragraph 3. Factor was originally only interpreted, but is now fully compiled (the non-optimizing compiler basically unrolls the interpreter loop[3][4]). The optimizing machine code compiler is written entirely in Factor. It does not output standalone executables, but rather generates machine code which is saved in the image. This image can then be deployed with the deploy-tool which produces a minimal tree shaken image along with the VM.
ITT: FV doesn't realize tree-shaken world images are not inferior at all compared to traditionally statically compiled code(like C). It must be a new concept to him.
>>343 "C♯ is compiled to bytecode, and then translated to native code, either by NGEN, or by a JIT compiler.
neither one is interpreted. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_.NET_Framework http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Language_Infrastructure
Both are required for development and Windows-only. Ngen is not a compiler. [edit] Executing CIL * Source code is converted to Common Intermediate Language, .NET’s equivalent to Assembly language for a CPU. * CIL is then assembled into bytecode and a .NET assembly is created. * Upon execution of a .NET assembly, its bytecode is passed through the Common Language Runtime's JIT compiler to generate native code. (NGEN compilation eliminates this step at run time.) * The native code is executed by the computer's processor.
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Some would ask, how could a perfect God create a universe filled with so much that is evil. They have missed a greater conundrum: why would a perfect God create a universe at all?
>>343 "C♯ is cumpeeled tu bytecude-a, und zeen trunsleted tu neteefe-a cude-a, ieezeer by NGEN, oor by a JIT cumpeeler. Bork Bork Bork!
neeezeer oone-a is interpreted. Bork Bork Bork! " http://ee.veekipedia.oorg/veeki/Meecrusufft_.NET_Fremoourk http://ee.veekipedia.oorg/veeki/Cummun_Lungooege-a_Inffrestrooctoore
But ere-a reqooured fur defelupment und Veendoos-oonly. Bork Bork Bork! Ngee is nut a cumpeeler. Bork Bork Bork! [ideet] Ixecooteeng CIL * Suoorce-a cude-a is cunferted tu Cummun Intermedeeete-a Lungooege-a, .NET’s iqooeefelent tu Essembly lungooege-a fur a CPOo. * CIL is zeen essembled intu bytecude-a und a .NET essembly is creeted. * Upun ixecooshun ooff a .NET essembly, its bytecude-a is pessed thruoogh zee Cummun Lungooege-a Roonteeme's JIT cumpeeler tu generete-a neteefe-a cude-a. Bork Bork Bork! (NGEN cumpeeleshun ileeminetes thees step et roon teeme-a.) * Zee neteefe-a cude-a is ixecooted by zee cumpooter's prucessur.
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Sume-a vuoold esk, hoo cuoold a perffect Gud creete-a a uneeferse-a feelled veet su mooch thet is ifeel. Bork Bork Bork! Zeey hefe-a meessed a greeter cunoondroom: vhy vuoold a perffect Gud creete-a a uneeferse-a et ell?
>>350 I clearly see "world images" which suspiciously resemble snapshots of VM state "world".
This is as far from compiled code as Moon is from Earth.
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There are two kinds of scientific progress: the methodical experimentation and categorization which gradually extend the boundaries of knowledge, and the revolutionary leap of genius which redefines and transcends those boundaries. Acknowledging our debt to the former, we yearn, nonetheless, for the latter.
I can imagine a JavaScript "world Image" of Firefox.exe memory + with blankpage+script.
Does this qualify as compiled executable?
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While the easiest way in metaphysics is to condemn all metaphysics as nonsense, the easiest way in morals is to elevate the common practice of the community into a moral absolute.
I cun imegeene-a a JefeScreept "vurld Imege-a" ooff Fureffux.ixe-a memury + veet blunkpege-a+screept. Bork Bork Bork!
Dues thees qooeleeffy es cumpeeled ixecooteble-a? Bork Bork Bork!
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Vheele-a zee ieseeest vey in metephyseecs is tu cundemn ell metephyseecs es nunsense-a, zee ieseeest vey in murels is tu ilefete-a zee cummun precteece-a ooff zee cummooneety intu a murel ebsuloote-a.
>>353
What does a world image contain?
Some metadata which describes the objects in the image, and
The objects: compiled functions(which contain native code), and data such as objects used by that code.
What does an executable contain?
Some metadata which describes the sections and some of the objects in the image, and the actual objects:
- a code section, which contains all compiled functions/code
- data sections which contains the data used by that code.
The real difference is just the format used and amount of metadata available (which is also present in the form of debug info in gcc compiled executables, unless stripped). When the code is loaded into memory, it executes natively, and it makes no real difference how it was stored originally.
There is another difference here that world images can be saved live, while the code is running. This can also be done on compiled code, by dumping the code's memory, but it requires restoring of things which were lost upon loading the image into memory(such as imports), or adding new code which reinitializes temporary resources.
>>361The real difference is Firefox.exe(or its analogues) is required and cannot be removed.
Tell me what file all "compiled" Lisp programs have to include and you found your Firefox.exe
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We hold life to be sacred, but we also know the foundation of life consists in a stream of codes not so different from the successive frames of a watchvid. Why then cannot we cut one code short here, and start another there? Is life so fragile that it can withstand no tampering? Does the sacred brook no improvement?
>>355
There are many practical issues in doing that, and why would you need firefox?
I'm not familiar at all with Javascript, but in a theoretical scenario, you could make a standalone TraceMonkey version which compiled each individial function to native code, then generated an executable which contains metadata of the functions and the actual function code.
>>362The real difference is Windows(or its analogues) is required and cannot be removed.
Tell me what file all "compiled" C programs have to include and you found your rundll32.exe
>>367
sbcl.exe is merely something which maps the core(world) image into memory. It can't be compared to Firefox, it's nothing more than a simple loader. It wouldn't be hard to integrate the core image and loader into one executable, if that bothers you.
>>368 It cannot be compared because no one ever did such things with Firefox memory.
sbcl.core.exe+lispscript=firefox.exe+javascript
The difference you can't create memory snapshots of Firefox in user-friendly way without including useless code and data.
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No great idea in its beginning can ever be within the law. How can it be within the law? The law is stationary. The law is fixed. The law is a chariot wheel which binds us all regardless of conditions or place or time.
>>368 It cunnut be-a cumpered becoose-a nu oone-a ifer deed sooch theengs veet Fureffux memury. Bork Bork Bork!
sbcl.cure-a.ixe-a+leespscript=fureffux.ixe-a+jefescreept
Zee deefffference-a yuoo cun't creete-a memury snepshuts ooff Fureffux in user-freeendly vey veethuoot incloodeeng useless cude-a und deta. Bork Bork Bork!
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Nu greet idea in its begeenning cun ifer be-a veethin zee lev. Bork Bork Bork! Hoo cun it be-a veethin zee lev? Bork Bork Bork! Zee lev is steshunery. Bork Bork Bork! Zee lev is feexed. Bork Bork Bork! Zee lev is a chereeut vheel vheech beends us ell regerdless ooff cundeeshuns oor plece-a oor teeme-a.
>>364,370 Some programmers want to code it in Lisp and other interpreted/VM languages
and i cannot refuse this option without explaining their true nature.(and incompatibility with goals: which is harder to demonstrate because you can write a game in such language, but it will be obviously slower, more memory-hungry, and require runtime to be installed, compared to native code).
>>364,370 Sume-a prugremmers vunt tu cude-a it in Leesp und oozeer interpreted/FM lungooeges
und i cunnut reffoose-a thees oopshun veethuoot ixpleeening zeeur trooe-a netoore-a.(und incumpeteebility veet guels: vheech is herder tu demunstrete-a becoose-a yuoo cun vreete a geme-a in sooch lungooege-a, boot it veell be-a oobfeeuoosly slooer, mure-a memury-hoongry, und reqooure-a roonteeme-a tu be-a instelled, cumpered tu neteefe-a cude-a). Bork Bork Bork!
>>378
Except Lisp and Factor are not interepted unless you want them to be. The code is loaded into memory and executes straight away, there's no JIT involved ( you can do something like JIT for scripting, if you want to, if you include the entire LISP implementation (somewhat large - 5-20MB), you could compile code at runtime, and run it right away. ). It's not memory hungry unless you make it memory hungry:
1)You want code which allocs(conses) less? Sure, you can do that. If you're so hung up about memory usage, you could make entirely cons-less code, but don't forget that modern games are very resource hungry, much more than any Lisp implementation is.
2)You want a small executable: tree shake the image, and you can get it very small, some people have gotten small tools to be under 50-100KB. This is usually done only for deployment, it's slightly less work to just distribute compiled packages as FASL's.
but it will be obviously slower
How many times was it mentioned that functions are compiled to native code? It will be slower than C, unless you plan on optimizing everything, but this speed loss is not important except on time sensitive code, which can be optimized or even written in C if needed. and require runtime to be installed
What runtime? Your game will need to include dll's/libraries anyway, for sound/graphics/movies/compression/... Runtimes are not installed in the user's system, they're just bundled files along with everything else. You could of course pack everything up in one executable which runs out of the box, but why do such a thing?
>compared to native code
This is already natively compiled, the only addional cost is manually loading code into memory, as opposed to the OS doing it for you. Do you know that using an executable packer such as UPX on your code, would make it manually load the code into memory? It's no greater cost than that.
>>380 I have no special concern for post volume. I can express myself in whatever time i wish.
Its not like we're running out of paper. Now, I'd like to check those competitors to >>364:
Haskell,Forth and Scheme( C++ compilers are mostly C compatible).
1.Are they VMs/Interpreters/runtime systems?
2.Can we produce code easily in them, without having to debug each line?
3.Is the process of installing compiler,copying code from /prog/, compiling and testing it cumbersome for chosen compiler/
toolkit system? (ideally this should be usable in half-hour for anyone browsing here, and without manual installation routines)
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...and that if one steps back into abstracted considerations derived without respect to such concerns, an understanding of the qualities of musical uniqueness will continue to be suppressed in favor of generalizations, which at best evoke a vague sense of what a piece may be doing, perhaps in common with some other pieces, but not what one piece is doing, all by itself.
>>382 3. Is the process of installing compiler,copying code from /prog/, compiling and testing it cumbersome for chosen compiler/
toolkit system? (ideally this should be usable in half-hour for anyone browsing here, and without manual installation routines)
Do you realize that someone has to know the language before they code in it? If someone already knows the language, they already have it setup, or could have it setup easily if they wanted to contribute. No language can be disqualified over such trivial issues.
You can't expect someone who has never used a language to produce any good code in it.
What you should be worried about is not how many minutes it takes for someone to get a development environment setup, but how many skilled coders are there in /prog/ that know the language and are willing to contribute to your project. Do you think /prog/ is filled with programmers who know Haskell, Scheme, Lisp, Factor well enough and are willing to contribute?
>>381 1)You want code which allocs(conses) less? Sure, you can do that. If you're so hung up about memory usage, you could make entirely cons-less code, but don't forget that modern games are very resource hungry, much more than any Lisp implementation is.
I want language which doesn't introduce any inefficiency which would be hard to get rid of.
2)You want a small executable: tree shake the image, and you can get it very small, some people have gotten small tools to be under 50-100KB. This is usually done only for deployment, it's slightly less work to just distribute compiled packages as FASL's.
Size of the game doesn't matter as long its productive code. "tree-shaken" is VM stripped of functions which aren't called by the lisp scripts. Its not a real executable: its like if one distributed firefox memory dumps inside a loader which would recreate some scripts on startup. The layers of sbcl.core seem inaccessible for programmer: its like a blackbox(as firefox.exe is inaccessible beyond its interface). Deployment is strong word: we're not an enterprise,
Game distributed as executable files(e.g. .exe), source remains on /prog/ threads and can be reviewed or copied later.
but it will be obviously slower How many times was it mentioned that functions are compiled to native code? It will be slower than C, unless you plan on optimizing everything, but this speed loss is not important except on time sensitive code, which can be optimized or even written in C if needed.
Functions which are compiled to native code? Tracemonkey compiles functions to native code as well. Its not a valid compiler tough. "even written in C" It could be written in C from the start?
and require runtime to be installed What runtime? Your game will need to include dll's/libraries anyway, for sound/graphics/movies/compression/... Runtimes are not installed in the user's system, they're just bundled files along with everything else. You could of course pack everything up in one executable which runs out of the box, but why do such a thing?
You confuse game files with external runtimes. Lisp bundles the VM.
I don't want to install 50 Mb .Net runtime to play minesweeper.Net. Many players as well.
These things like Java runtime,slowdown the entire system, do questionable things in the background and are resource hogs.
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The primitive mentality is a condition of the human mind, and not a stage in its historical development.
>>381 1)Yuoo vunt cude-a vheech ellucs(cunses) less? Bork Bork Bork! Soore-a, yuoo cun du thet. Bork Bork Bork! Iff yuoo're-a su hoong up ebuoot memury usege-a, yuoo cuoold meke-a inturely cuns-less cude-a, boot dun't furget thet mudern gemes ere-a fery resuoorce-a hoongry, mooch mure-a thun uny Leesp implementeshun is.
I vunt lungooege-a vheech duesn't intrudooce-a uny ineffffeeciency vheech vuoold be-a herd tu get reed ooff. Bork Bork Bork!
2)Yuoo vunt a smell ixecooteble-a: tree-a sheke-a zee imege-a, und yuoo cun get it fery smell, sume-a peuple-a hefe-a guttee smell tuuls tu be-a under 50-100KB. Bork Bork Bork! Thees is usooelly dune-a oonly fur depluyment, it's sleeghtly less vurk tu joost deestriboote-a cumpeeled peckeges es FESL's.
Seeze-a ooff zee geme-a duesn't metter es lung its prudoocteefe cude-a. Bork Bork Bork! "tree-a-shekee" is FM streepped ooff fooncshuns vheech eren't celled by zee leesp screepts. Bork Bork Bork! Its nut a reel ixecooteble-a: its leeke-a iff oone-a deestribooted fureffux memury doomps inseede-a a lueder vheech vuoold recreete-a sume-a screepts oon stertoop. Bork Bork Bork! Zee leyers ooff sbcl.cure-a seem ineccesseeble-a fur prugremmer: its leeke-a a bleckbux(es fureffux.ixe-a is ineccesseeble-a beyund its interffece-a). Bork Bork Bork! Depluyment is strung vurd: ve're-a nut un interpreese-a,
Geme-a deestribooted es ixecooteble-a feeles(i.g. Bork Bork Bork! .ixe-a), suoorce-a remeeens oon /prug/ threeds und cun be-a refeeooed oor cupeeed leter. Bork Bork Bork!
boot it veell be-a oobfeeuoosly slooer Hoo muny teemes ves it menshuned thet fooncshuns ere-a cumpeeled tu neteefe-a cude-a? Bork Bork Bork! It veell be-a slooer thun C, unless yuoo plun oon oopteemizing iferytheeng, boot thees speed luss is nut impurtunt ixcept oon teeme-a senseetife-a cude-a, vheech cun be-a oopteemized oor ifee vreettee in C iff needed.
Fooncshuns vheech ere-a cumpeeled tu neteefe-a cude-a? Bork Bork Bork! Trecemunkey cumpeeles fooncshuns tu neteefe-a cude-a es vell. Bork Bork Bork! Its nut a feleed cumpeeler tuoogh. Bork Bork Bork! "ifee vreettee in C" It cuoold be-a vreettee in C frum zee stert? Bork Bork Bork!
und reqooure-a roonteeme-a tu be-a instelled Vhet roonteeme-a? Bork Bork Bork! Yuoor geme-a veell need tu incloode-a dll's/leebreries unyvey, fur suoond/grepheecs/mufeees/cumpresseeun/... Bork Bork Bork! Roonteemes ere-a nut instelled in zee user's system, zeey're-a joost boondled feeles elung veet iferytheeng ilse-a. Bork Bork Bork! Yuoo cuoold ooff cuoorse-a peck iferytheeng up in oone-a ixecooteble-a vheech roons oooot ooff zee bux, boot vhy du sooch a theeng?
Yuoo cunffoose-a geme-a feeles veet ixternel roonteemes. Bork Bork Bork! Leesp boondles zee FM. Bork Bork Bork!
I dun't vunt tu instell 50 Mb .Net roonteeme-a tu pley meenesveeper.Net. Bork Bork Bork! Muny pleyers es vell. Bork Bork Bork!
Zeese-a theengs leeke-a Jefa roonteeme-a,sloodoon zee inture-a system, du qooesshuneble-a theengs in zee beckgruoond und ere-a resuoorce-a hugs. Bork Bork Bork!
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Zee preemitife-a menteleety is a cundeeshun ooff zee hoomun meend, und nut a stege-a in its heesturicel defelupment.
>>384
"Do you think /prog/ is filled with programmers who know Haskell, Scheme, Lisp, Factor well enough and are willing to contribute?" Actually not. That a weak point of languages.
The premise is if the language is easy to learn and setup, someone with minimal skills and desire to learn the language could start contributing in the project(in the least helping to debug and test the code).
The ideal language would be fast and easy to develop in, but i'll have to settle with C as >>364 suggested if no alternatives develop.
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A State is absolute in the sense which I have in mind when it claims the right to a monopoly of all the force within the community, to make war, to make peace, to conscript life, to tax, to establish and dis-establish property, to define crime, to punish disobedience, to control education, to supervise the family, to regulate personal habits, and to censor opinions. The modern State claims all of these powers, and, in the matter of theory, there is no real difference in the size of the claim between communists, fascists, and democrats.
>>384
"Du yuoo theenk /prug/ is feelled veet prugremmers vhu knoo Heskell, Scheme-a, Leesp, Fectur vell inuoogh und ere-a veelling tu cuntreeboote-a?" Ectooelly nut. Bork Bork Bork! Thet a veek pueent ooff lungooeges. Bork Bork Bork!
Zee premeese-a is iff zee lungooege-a is iesy tu leern und setoop, sumeune-a veet meenimel skeells und desure-a tu leern zee lungooege-a cuoold stert cuntreebooting in zee pruject(in zee leest helpeeng tu deboog und test zee cude-a). Bork Bork Bork!
Zee ideel lungooege-a vuoold be-a fest und iesy tu defelup in, boot i'll hefe-a tu settle-a veet C es >>364 sooggested iff nu elterneteefes defelup. Bork Bork Bork!
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A Stete-a is ebsuloote-a in zee sense-a vheech I hefe-a in meend vhee it cleeems zee reeght tu a munupuly ooff ell zee furce-a veethin zee cummooneety, tu meke-a ver, tu meke-a peece-a, tu cunscreept leeffe-a, tu tex, tu istebleesh und dees-istebleesh pruperty, tu deffeene-a creeme-a, tu pooneesh deesubedience-a, tu cuntrul idooceshun, tu sooperfeese-a zee femeely, tu regoolete-a persunel hebeets, und tu censur oopeeniuns. Bork Bork Bork! Zee mudern Stete-a cleeems ell ooff zeese-a pooers, und, in zee metter ooff zeeury, zeere-a is nu reel deefffference-a in zee seeze-a ooff zee cleeem betveee cummooneests, fesceests, und demucrets.
>>385 I want language which doesn't introduce any inefficiency which would be hard to get rid of.
Code in C then.
The whole point of Lisp is that you can prototype rapidly then optimize later. C doesn't give you this option, you'll have to work an year or two on it, before you get a good working prototype. The layers of sbcl.core seem inaccessible for programmer: its like a blackbox(as firefox.exe is inaccessible beyond its interface).
Completely wrong, you can access EVERYTHING in sbcl.core, you can inspect every detail in it, modify it, redefine it, whatever. You don't seem to know much about Lisp and its implementation. Get a good Lisp book, read it, then try saying the same again. Tracemonkey compiles functions to native code as well.
Tracemonkey is tied to the environment, you could probably make a compiler out of it with some effort, but it's not the case right now.
You confuse game files with external runtimes. Lisp bundles the VM. There is no VM.
It's just an image with compiled functions. An image which you can change as you wish. If you tree shake it and get a 2MB core for your game (in the end), it will contain both parts of the lisp implementation and the game. Do you know that for compiled C code, LIBC is linked into the executable? If you don't like it, you load the external runtimes provided by the OS, or required to be installed by the user, a lot of games do this. Some C compilers remove unused parts of libraries to reduce code size when statically linking, this is the same idea as tree shaking.
I don't want to install 50 Mb .Net runtime to play minesweeper.Net. Many players as well.
Again, you don't install anything, it's just a static module containg the functions of your game and the implementation's library.
These things like Java runtime,slowdown the entire system, do questionable things in the background and are resource hogs.
NO exernal processes are ran, no entries are added to the registry, no files are added to your windows\* windows\system32\* or anyplace else than the game directory.
Please learn more about how OSes work and how Lisp implementations work, I'm getting tired about arguing about trivial, mostly well-known matters.
You know, I always see this "FrozenVoids" lips flapping like a moron! Must have quite a big mouth, big lips to I presume! Just the right size for cock sucking, am I right FrozenVoid! Were do you live FrozenVoid!
>>289 ". C doesn't give you this option, you'll have to work an year or two on it, before you get a good working prototype." Project has no deadlines.
"you can access EVERYTHING in sbcl.core" No you can access only functions from its interface(or more accurately remove functions from the VM).
"Do you know that for compiled C code, LIBC is linked into the executable?"
LIBC isn't a runtime. Its library bundled with operating system. Its always installed.
"Some C compilers remove unused parts of libraries to reduce code size when statically linking, this is the same idea as tree shaking." Tree-Shaking is done on base of the VM, not on base of program.
A C program does straightforward thing:It start executing code,loading variables.
Lisp would have to: setup its VM and load the "worldscript" image,then run the image.
Anyway, if you can use SBCL to work by scheme in >>323
and willing to explain how its done, it will be accepted again for consideration.
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Behind every failure is an opportunity somebody wishes they had missed.
>>289 ". Bork Bork Bork! C duesn't geefe-a yuoo thees oopshun, yuoo'll hefe-a tu vurk un yeer oor tvu oon it, beffure-a yuoo get a guud vurkeeng prututype-a." Pruject hes nu deedleenes. Bork Bork Bork!
"yuoo cun eccess IFERYTHING in sbcl.cure-a" Nu yuoo cun eccess oonly fooncshuns frum its interffece-a(oor mure-a eccooretely remufe-a fooncshuns frum zee FM). Bork Bork Bork!
"Du yuoo knoo thet fur cumpeeled C cude-a, LIBC is leenked intu zee ixecooteble-a?"
LIBC isn't a roonteeme-a. Bork Bork Bork! Its leebrery boondled veet oopereteeng system. Bork Bork Bork! Its elveys instelled. Bork Bork Bork!
"Sume-a C cumpeelers remufe-a unoosed perts ooff leebreries tu redooce-a cude-a seeze-a vhee steteecelly leenking, thees is zee seme-a idea es tree-a shekeeng." Tree-a-Shekeeng is dune-a oon bese-a ooff zee FM, nut oon bese-a ooff prugrem. Bork Bork Bork!
A C prugrem dues streeeghtffurverd theeng:It stert ixecooteeng cude-a,luedeeng fereeebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Leesp vuoold hefe-a tu: setoop its FM und lued zee "vurldscreept" imege-a,zeen roon zee imege-a. Bork Bork Bork!
Unyvey, iff yuoo cun use-a SBCL tu vurk by scheme-a in >>323
und veelling tu ixpleeen hoo its dune-a, it veell be-a eccepted egeeen fur cunseedereshun. Bork Bork Bork!
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Beheend ifery feeeloore-a is un ooppurtooneety sumebudy veeshes zeey hed meessed.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 12:16
>>392
That's pretty sad, Mr. Anus isn't even a good troll! How could you like(or hate) him more than !
>>393 i generally dislike managing forums(i prefer blogs),but when project reaches stage #5-#6 i'll consider that(depending on the volume of contributions). This /prog/ thread is sufficient right now.
>>399 excellent page btw, let me quote it:
A run-time system relieves programmers from the burden of writing code for mundane tasks such as drawing text on the screen or making an Internet connection. It also provides an abstraction layer that hides the complexity or variations in the services offered by the operating system. In the limit, the run-time system may be a P-code machine or virtual machine, that hides even the processor's instruction set. This is the approach followed by many interpreted languages such as Lisp and Awk , and some languages like Java that are meant to be compiled into some machine-independent pseudo-code ("bytecode"). This arrangement greatly simplifies the task of language implementation and its adaptation to different machines, and allows sophisticated language features such as reflection (computing). It also allows the same program to be executed on any machine without recompilation, a feature that has become very important since after the diffusion of the World Wide Web.
It says in this paragraph directly what your runtime system is. With Lisp and Java as examples.
>>394 No you can access only functions from its interface(or more accurately remove functions from the VM).
You can list, create, delete packages. Packages contain symbols, which link to everything else. You can inspect, modify, redefine, make them unbound, undefine, and so on, any symbol, and you can save the new state of the world ( this is usually used when standalone executable are wanted ). You can access private symbols of packages too, for example
cl:car would point to the CAR symbol, which is functionally bound:
CAR
--------------------
The object is a SYMBOL. ..
Name: "CAR"
Package: #<PACKAGE "COMMON-LISP">
Value: #:INSPECT-UNBOUND-OBJECT-581
Function: #<FUNCTION CAR>
Plist: NIL
Let's say i want to look at some internal part of the image, i can do that:
I can then examine the internal symbols in the package
#<(SIMPLE-VECTOR 251) {223CF917}>
--------------------
Dimensions: (251)
Element type: T
Total size: 251
Adjustable: NIL
Fill pointer: NIL
Contents:
0: SB-THREAD::CALL-WITH-RECURSIVE-SYSTEM-SPINLOCK
1: SB-THREAD::COPY-SESSION
2: 0
3: 0
4: SB-THREAD::MAKE-SESSION
5: SB-THREAD::CALL-WITH-RECURSIVE-SYSTEM-SPINLOCK/WITHOUT-GCING
6: 0
7: SB-THREAD::WITH-SYSTEM-SPINLOCK
8: 0
9: SB-THREAD::FORMS
10: SB-THREAD::SEMAPHORE-P
11: 0
12: SB-THREAD::SET-MUTEX-VALUE
13: SB-THREAD::CALL-WITH-SPINLOCK
...
247: SB-THREAD::WAIT-P
248: SB-THREAD::CALL-WITH-SYSTEM-MUTEX
249: SB-THREAD::NEW-SESSION
250: SB-THREAD::WITH-SPINLOCK
Note that :: which clearly states that the symbol is internal, but if you were to use :: to access it instead of :, it would work.
>>400
Quite big, even MinGw which has like a huge compiler pack(GCC,Java,ADA,G++,Fortran,Objective-C) is merely 210 mb.
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The genius of culture is to create an ontological system so compelling that what is inside and outside of a person are viewed as of a piece, no seams and patches noticeable.
>>400
Qooeete-a beeg, ifee MeenGv vheech hes leeke-a a hooge-a cumpeeler peck(GCC,Jefa,EDA,G++,Furtrun,Oobjecteefe-a-C) is merely 210 mb. Bork Bork Bork!
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Zee geneeoos ooff cooltoore-a is tu creete-a un oontulugeecel system su cumpelleeng thet vhet is inseede-a und ooootseede-a ooff a persun ere-a feeooed es ooff a peeece-a, nu seems und petches nuteeceeble-a.
>>406 I've had to install this runtime to run several programs. MSVC++ is disqualified.
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When you can give the right answer, even though your past road was one of death, you open up a new road of life.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 12:48
>>410
Are you fucking retarded or AIBT?
What the fuck do you think libc is? Just because the OS installs it for you, it doesn't make it any less of a runtime library. Why do you think Linux binaries have so many compatibility problems between different distros?
A C program does straightforward thing:It start executing code,loading variables. Lisp would have to: setup its VM and load the "worldscript" image,then run the image.
Anyway, if you can use SBCL to work by scheme in >>323
and willing to explain how its done, it will be accepted again for consideration.
A lisp file is compiled to a fasl(native code at this point), a fasl can be loaded into the core image(symbols/code/data from the fasl are now inside the core image memory), then you dump the core/wrold image, maybe tree-shake it if you want first, and get a new core file, which contains just your code and the needed functions from the implementation. This yields a small loader exe and the .core image which contains the code of the game and whatever is needed from the libraries. If you truly require one single exe, you could combine the main exe with the core image, which would only change the place from where the exe loads the compiled functions/data.
1.A batch file is run with this command inside: compiler -flags main.program 2.It produces Main.exe (in other platforms other formats) 3.Main.exe runs, standalone and without any further requirements.
Building in CL is usually done using ASDF, but it can be done by calling COMPILE manually too, so everything is done from LISP, all you have to do is execute something like (compile "file.lisp") or (asdf:oos :load-op :system-name). If you want to save the system image you will have to look up your implementation's documentation to find the command for doing that. It was save-lisp-and-die for SBCL(on Windows, this command needs a bit more preparation if you have external imports from other libraries, but it's nothing hard to automate.)
If you require a bat for doing this, all you have to do is just run sbcl with the proper command line which loads a script which loads/builds/prepares image/tree shakes and saves the core, and you would get a new image. If you want it all in one executable, go get the SBCL source code and modify the loader so it would load the core from resources or from the executable's overlay, then build it.
>>410
Cygwin comes with runtime libraries too. Mingw uses Windows' libraries AFAIR, the same libraries used by MSVC++. The only thing that doesn't have a runtime is code which runs on the bare metal, without an OS.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 13:04
>>413
Cygwin does use a runtime. A DLL called cygwin.dll or something like that.
MinGW, however, doesn't. It statically links code to the executable. This is why a simple Hello World compiled by MinGW can be 500 KiB if it includes <iostream>.
It's possible to not use runtimes (I think), but you'll have to write in unportable code and manage dynamic allocation (i.e. implement malloc()) and I/O yourself using system calls.
>>411 If library comes with the OS and player don't have to download and install it, its fine.
I'm not "blindly opposed" to runtimes. There features which i hate, and wouldn't allow inside a project. >>412 describe a batch file which compiles hypothethical testprogram.lisp and describe what it does to get result.exe >>413 "the same libraries used by MSVC++" Bullshit, what about the zillions of program which run on my computer all these years and only a week ago i had to Install MSVC++ runtime because of your shitty programs?
>>414 again.
Oh, and MinGW is the *only* compiler I know of that doesn't use runtimes. Everything else, including GCC in all its flavors, use some form of library linked at run time.
>>411 Iff leebrery cumes veet zee OoS und pleyer dun't hefe-a tu doonlued und instell it, its feene-a. Bork Bork Bork!
I'm nut "bleendly ooppused" tu roonteemes. Bork Bork Bork! Zeere-a feetoores vheech i hete-a, und vuooldn't elloo inseede-a a pruject. Bork Bork Bork! >>412 descreebe-a a betch feele-a vheech cumpeeles hypuzeetheecel testprugrem.leesp und descreebe-a vhet it dues tu get resoolt.ixe-a >>413 "zee seme-a leebreries used by MSFC++" Boollsheet, vhet ebuoot zee zeelliuns ooff prugrem vheech roon oon my cumpooter ell zeese-a yeers und oonly a veek egu i hed tu Instell MSFC++ roonteeme-a becoose-a ooff yuoor sheetty prugrems? Bork Bork Bork!
>>416 Interesting.What about Digital Mars C and Pelles C?
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When you look at the whole life of the planet, we - you know, man - has only been around for a few blinks of an eye. So if the infection wipes us all out... that is a return to normality.
>>416 Interesteeng.Vhet ebuoot Deegitel Mers C und Pelles C? Bork Bork Bork!
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Vhee yuoo luuk et zee vhule-a leeffe-a ooff zee plunet, ve-a - yuoo knoo, mun - hes oonly beee eruoond fur a foo bleenks ooff un iye-a. Bork Bork Bork! Su iff zee inffecshun veepes us ell oooot... Bork Bork Bork! thet is a retoorn tu nurmeleety.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 13:13
>>415
I've said it before, but you promptly ignored me as the faggot you are.
An automated installer can handle installing a runtime for the user. Any program that requires you to manually install a library is not providing a good installation method.
>Bullshit, what about the zillions of program which run on my computer all these years and only a week ago i had to Install MSVC++ runtime because of your shitty programs?
The MSVC++ runtime has been around since around 2005. You've probably used many programs that linked to it without even realizing it. Those programs had a good installation method.
The entire runtime is only a couple of DLLs. You just need to put them in the same directory as the binary and you're done.
>>420 Three programs in entire d:\program files tree use *msvc*files.
The program i had to install last week,
GHC and MingGW(both in form of lib.a file, not actual .dll).
"An automated installer can handle installing a runtime for the user. Any program that requires you to manually install a library is not providing a good installation method." These libraries should be statically linked.
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What makes you think human beings are sentient and aware? There's no evidence for it. Human beings never think for themselves, they find it too uncomfortable. For the most part, members of our species simply repeat what they are told-and become upset if they are exposed to any different view. The characteristic human trait is not awareness but conformity, and the characteristic result is religious warfare. Other animals fight for territory or food; but, uniquely in the animal kingdom, human beings fight for their 'beliefs.' The reason is that beliefs guide behavior which has evolutionary importance among human beings. But at a time when our behavior may well lead us to extinction, I see no reason to assume we have any awareness at all. We are stubborn, self-destructive conformists. Any other view of our species is just a self-congratulatory delusion. Next question.
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Well, a blockaded bishop is of little value, but I think you're referring to a pawn.
>>415
Something of this sort:
sbcl --script "(progn (compile-file \"testprogram.lisp\")(load \"testprogram.lisp\") (save-lisp-and-die "result.core" ...other options for compilation go here...)" You can then run that core as opposed directly like loader.exe --core result.core , or make the loader contain the core by itself. No tree-shaking is included in that example, and you would probably have much more complicated build cycles for real games, which is why you shouldn't use that, but use ASDF instead which builds and loads systems for you. Also, this is not how most developers would compile code, they would just load the system through asdf in their environment, and run the game dynamically. This would only be done when you distribute the game.
It's unusual to use a compile and run method for developing lisp code, as lisp can just compile code as you write it, and you can test it live in the REPL.
>>425 I can't say "its shit or not" but they are
1.Smaller then GCC, and have less functionality/libs(by default).
2.Produce slower code, in most cases.
3.Have no wide support(Except some commercial compilers) and have incompatibilities with GCC.
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I turned my thoughts to a still more novel mode..to compose pictures on canvas similar to representations on the stage...my picture is my stage,and men and women my players exhibited in a 'dumb' show.
>>425 I cun't sey "its sheet oor nut" boot zeey ere-a
1.Smeller zeen GCC, und hefe-a less fooncshuneleety/leebs(by deffoolt). Bork Bork Bork!
2.Prudooce-a slooer cude-a, in must ceses. Bork Bork Bork!
3.Hefe-a nu veede-a sooppurt(Ixcept sume-a cummerceeel cumpeelers) und hefe-a incumpeteebilities veet GCC. Bork Bork Bork!
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I toorned my thuooghts tu a steell mure-a nufel mude-a..tu cumpuse-a peectoores oon cunfes seemiler tu representeshuns oon zee stege-a...my peectoore-a is my stege-a,und mee und vumee my pleyers ixheebited in a 'doomb' shoo.
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In wilderness I sense the miracle of life, and behind it our scientific accomplishments fade to trivia.
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In veelderness I sense-a zee murecle-a ooff leeffe-a, und beheend it oooor sceeentiffic eccumpleeshments fede-a tu treefia.
A compiler should work like this:
1.A batch file is run with this command inside: compiler -flags main.program
2.It produces Main.exe (in other platforms other formats)
3.Main.exe runs, standalone and without any further requirements.
Anything which deviates from this form isn't a valid compiler.
I'd want to see
1. Contents of batch file which runs sbcl with parameters on a testprogram.lisp
2. a result executable.
I don't want to see: loaders/vm/runtimes or anything which cannot be distributed as single .exe file.
DirectX is a runtime, OpenGL is a runtime, libc is a runtime. There is no way to make this game without installing runtimes.
You could go bare metal, and start with nothing but the hardware, but all that you will do is reinvent a modern operating system... how many years do you think it will take to get average compatibility with today's hardware?
>>434
I could spend half a day and make something which generates standalone executables, all I would have to do is modify the way it loads .core. I value my time more than to spend half a day of work, just to prove to you how to make a "standalone executable" without a .core file. Just use ECL and compile to C, if you hate core files that much. You'd get your "standalone" that way. Oh wait, I forgot, you don't want to compile ECL yourself.
Good luck with the game, Mr. Void
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 13:49
>>436
In case you didn't know, the point is that it should be convenient. LibC is installed in all Linux systems. DirectX is already installed in Windows systems. For me personally, I want Javascript because of its awesome programming elements.
>>436 DirectX is a runtime, OpenGL is a runtime, libc is a runtime. There is no way to make this game without installing runtimes.
Don't try to blur the distinction between APIs which are installed in OS for all programs(in 99% case there are already there) and Runtimes which benefit only specific class of programs.
The main point: I don't have to install OpenGL or DirectX with each new program which uses them.
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Refusal to believe until proof is given is a rational position; denial of all outside of our own limited experience is absurd.
>>436 DurectX is a roonteeme-a, OopenGL is a roonteeme-a, leebc is a roonteeme-a. Bork Bork Bork! Zeere-a is nu vey tu meke-a thees geme-a veethuoot instelleeng roonteemes. Bork Bork Bork!
Dun't try tu bloor zee deestincshun betveee EPIs vheech ere-a instelled in OoS fur ell prugrems(in 99% cese-a zeere-a ere-a elreedy zeere) und Roonteemes vheech beneffeet oonly speceeffic cless ooff prugrems.
Zee meeen pueent: I dun't hefe-a tu instell OopenGL oor DurectX veet iech noo prugrem vheech uses zeem. Bork Bork Bork!
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Reffoosel tu beleeefe-a unteel pruuff is geefee is a reshunel puseeshun; deneeel ooff ell ooootseede-a ooff oooor oovn leemited ixpereeence-a is ebsoord.
>>437 Thus Lisp remains disqualified. >>440 Large projects can be compiled the same way, except the main.c file will have more #includes
and gcc will be invoked with more -llib parameters.
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After a long period of slumber comes a moment of awakening. Then thought frees herself from the chains with which those interested - rulers, lawyers, clerics - have carefully enwound her.
>>441
see >>439
There isn't any difference between a runtime and a normal library. The only difference you can argue about is if they are installed by default or not. Do you know that at least on Windows, you can drop the dll in the same directory as the exe, link against it, and it would work? Go get some real games, and look at their directories, how many dlls do you see for each? Do those dlls make the game any worse in any way?
I can't see your project getting anywhere, if you are arguing about such insignificant problems.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 14:05
>>441
What you're not getting is that there *is* no distinction. They are all linked at run time.
Even if libc is installed in every Linux system, how does that benefit you? You don't know exactly where it is, what it's called, or whether the local version is compatible with the version the system that compiled the binary was using. If you didn't link statically libc to the binary then it's basically unrannable anywhere else.
Other than the OS API, you can't depend on anything being there.
>>443
The reason ECL doesn't distribute binaries is because it assumes you have a C compiler. It generates C files for you to compile with it, why would you have a problem compiling the compiler first?
>>439 That was before DirectX 9.0/OpenGL2.0,development has slowed down considerably and
MS tries desperately to push new versions on programmers(including it with Vista/7).
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Ladies and gentlemen, distinguished colleagues, after extensive biological and anatomical testing, I regret to announce that the evidence we have is inconclusive. This thing may or may not be human.
>>447 ECL is not a valid compiler. Its at best a language translator
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Scientific theories are judged by the coherence they lend to our natural experience and the simplicity with which they do so.
>>452 a "native code compiler suite" like GCC or GHC.
With such broad "definition" we should include compilers which compile to JavaScript(there are surprisingly about~20 such compilers, each using a different source language)
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Stop trying to rationalize everything, will ya? Let's face it, we have a mystery on our hands!
You guys get what you deserve. I have never once been tempted to turn off my whitewasher.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 14:30
>>452
Look, if you want to make up your own definitions for "runtime" and "compiler", you might as well stop with your random signature bullshit and replace that with your custom definitions so we can avoid this kind of confusions.
Otherwise shut up and follow conventions.
It compiles to C. ...and C compiles to native code.
I don't think you'll get what you want unless you go bare metal, it's not about languages, but about language implementations.
Going bare-metal, you will lose support for 3D graphics, unless you plan on writing drivers for the variety of 3D cards that exist these days.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 14:39
>>285
Yes, I have a correction: put it back the way I had it. You're clueless and shouldn't dare to correct your betters. The languages I listed get 10s because they have simple, regular syntax. Smalltalk is not quite as simple, so it gets a 9.
>>456 As temporary measure, i'll follow your suggestion. >>457 If it compiles files to C and not including its C compiler which subsequently compiles them to native code,
it disqualified.
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Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode or script files
He often argued that human intelligence was more trouble than it was worth. It was more destructive than creative, more confusing than revealing, more discouraging than satisfying, more spiteful than charitable.
>>456 Es tempurery meesoore-a, i'll fulloo yuoor sooggesshun. Bork Bork Bork! >>457 Iff it cumpeeles feeles tu C und nut incloodeeng its C cumpeeler vheech soobseqooently cumpeeles zeem tu neteefe-a cude-a,
it deesqooeliffied. Bork Bork Bork!
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Cumpeeler: A prugrem vheech prudooces ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Roonteeme-a:A prugrem lueds unuzeer prugrem es tup ixecooshun leyer
Furtooel mecheene-a:A prugrem vheech ixecootes bytecude-a oor screept feeles
He-a oofftee ergooed thet hoomun intelleegence-a ves mure-a truooble-a thun it ves vurt. Bork Bork Bork! It ves mure-a destroocteefe-a thun creeteefe-a, mure-a cunffooseeng thun refeeleeng, mure-a deescuooreging thun seteesffying, mure-a speeteffool thun chereeteble-a.
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
A compiler is just a tool which translates code from one form to another ( language A -> language B, a language could be anything, a high level language, a low level language like assembler or machine code ). A compiler could call other compilers. Do you know that must things you consider compilers, including msvc or gcc, generate assembly code which is then assembled, and linked. The linking process is separate. The compiler generates native code in that case, but it doesn't generate executables. A linker links together object files and libraries to get an executable.
Runtime:A program loads another program as top execution layer
A library is not a runtime by this definition. Most modern operating systems map the executable image in memory and then map the libraries it is linked against in memory ( usually quite a few ). Runtimes can be understood as those libraries.
Not even .NET can be considered a runtime by your definition, as the it's implemented through loadable libraries, and .net executables are also valid PE executables, even if most of them don't do anything except load the .NET runtime to execute themselves.
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode or script files
You didn't specify the execution method. If it compiles the script file to native code, it can't be a Virtual Machine.
There's also environments which interpret script files, and are much slower, they are not Virtual Machines either.
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Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
Laws: We know what they are, and what they are worth! They are spider webs for the rich and mighty, steel chains for the poor and weak, fishing nets in the hands of government.
>>461 except load the .NET runtime to execute themselves.
Thats the point of my definition.
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Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
The trouble with the rat race is that even if you win, you're still a rat.
>>464
But the .NET runtime is just a bunch of libraries, the core of which contains a virtual machine. You're conflating the concepts of libraries, virtual machines and runtimes.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
They all run within the same process.
Technically executable are produced by a linker(which is part of compiler) and runtime could call another runtime(a JVM could interface .Net) but these don't change the basic principles.
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Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
Why do you insist that the human genetic code is "sacred" or "taboo"? It is a chemical process and nothing more. For that matter -we- are chemical processes and nothing more. If you deny yourself a useful tool simply because it reminds you uncomfortably of your mortality, you have uselessly and pointlessly crippled yourself.
>>467
People can, and do use a linkers standalone. You could compile an assembly written to an object file, a C written file to another object file and link them together to make an executable.
>>466 Not quite. This proceeds either as
1.vm.exe loads prog.bin
2.vm.exe is bundled with prog.bin in same file and configured to execute prog.bin on startup
3.prog.exe is stub which loads vm.exe, then runs it with vm.exe -decode_and_exec prog.exe
Neihter of the above are true executables.
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Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
You're supposed to be developing verbal abilities for your big aptitude test tomorrow.
>>470
A virtual machine is indeed something which executes bytecode in one form or another, it can interpret it, or it can compile it and run it.
SBCL is not a virtual machine, for the code is already compiled to native code, there is no bytecode there.
You could say that it contains a library within itself, but that's no different than programs which come statically linked with libc.
It doesn't fit your definition of runtime.
>>472 If the linker is the one that produces the executable then your definition is wrong by your own standards.
^Linker is final part of compilation; the compiler is either producing .exe files at the end or not producing them.
there is no third option. Your definition of runtime suggests that a program that links to DirectX is a runtime, and not the other way around.
DirectX is runtime integrated into OS, it interface at driver level. Does not compare with JVM. Your definition of virtual machine doesn't include virtual machines that run machine code.
These are called Emulators. Your definition of JIT compiler excludes JIT compilers that generate machine code without generating a proper executable.
Its in the definition. I don't see how you can interpret it otherwise:
A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
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Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
Oh, it's night-time. I was having... a daymare.
:executable
If true, arrange to combine the sbcl runtime and the core image to create a standalone executable. If false (the default), the core image will not be executable on its own. Executable images always behave as if they were passed the –noinform runtime option.
Hah, I should have read the documentation more carefully. There's no need to create this feature, it already existed.
>>473 Whatever category SBCL.exe belongs to its definitely not a compiler.
By running SBCL.exe i get into interpreter.
Its rightfully will be excluded until the day it features compilation of Lisp programs into real .exe files.
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Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
When everyone thinks the same, nobody is thinking.
>>474
>These are called Emulators.
No, they're not. An emulator is a virtual machine that replicates or attempts to replicate the behavior or real hardware. A virtual machine, such as the JVM, doesn't replicate any real hardware.
>Its in the definition. I don't see how you can interpret it otherwise:
>A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
Right. If your definition of "compiler" is "a program that generates executables", then "to compile" must be "to generate executables". Therefore, a JIT compiler , by your definition, "generates in-memory executables", as opposed to a mere compiler, which writes them to a medium.
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Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
Stranded in this mill town railroad yard while the whole world was converging elsewhere, we seemed to be nothing but children playing among heroic men.
>>477 By running SBCL.exe i get into interpreter.
Ha, what an idiot. Does SBCL even have an interpreter built in yet? For a long time it didn't, but I know somebody was working on adding one, since sometimes it's faster to interpret.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 15:26
Every piece of software has a runtime. A runtime is simply the sum of facilities offered by linked libraries and the VM it is run on(I'll include the operating system as a subset of the VM)
FV is simply equating light weight runtimes (such as those required by C/C++) with compiled, and heavy weight runtimes (such as those required by Java/C-octothorpe/Dynamic languages) with the actual word runtime/VM. FV is simply an idiot who's content with redefining common CS terms. How does this require several dozen posts to argue?
>>477
Do you know what intereptation is?
It means analyzing some source code and then executing the Abstract Syntax Tree which you parsed.
There is a huge difference between that and just loading some code in memory and just running it directly, which is what SBCL does.
By your incorrect definition of interpretation, all I have to do to make something interpreted is to take the program and run it through a packer(like UPX). The packer would write the executable code in a non-standard format and generate an executable from that. When you run the executable, the packer loader would unpack the code and load it into memory, and run it directly, with no speed loss.
Manually mapping code into memory is very fast and has nothing to do with interpreting code.
>>479
>>These are called Emulators.
>No, they're not. An emulator is a virtual machine that replicates or attempts to replicate the behavior or real hardware. >A virtual machine, such as the JVM, doesn't replicate any real hardware.
virtual machines that run machine code. JVM runs bytecode.
>>Its in the definition. I don't see how you can interpret it otherwise:
>>A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
>Right. If your definition of "compiler" is "a program that generates executables", then "to compile" must be "to >generate executables". Therefore, a JIT compiler , by your definition, "generates in-memory executables", as opposed >to a mere compiler, which writes them to a medium.
compiles to memory, what is hard to understand? it should be describe translates chunks of program to native code
until the program resides in memory. Its a VM with the bytecode translation step removed.
_____________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species.
>>479
>>Zeese-a ere-a celled Imooleturs. Bork Bork Bork!
>Nu, zeey're-a nut. Bork Bork Bork! Un imooletur is a furtooel mecheene-a thet repleecetes oor ettempts tu repleecete-a zee behefeeur oor reel herdvere-a. Bork Bork Bork! >A furtooel mecheene-a, sooch es zee JFM, duesn't repleecete-a uny reel herdvere-a. Bork Bork Bork!
furtooel mecheenes thet roon mecheene-a cude-a. Bork Bork Bork! JFM roons bytecude-a. Bork Bork Bork!
>>Its in zee deffeenishun. Bork Bork Bork! I dun't see-a hoo yuoo cun interpret it oozeerveese-a:
>>A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
>Reeght. Bork Bork Bork! Iff yuoor deffeenishun ooff "cumpeeler" is "a prugrem thet generetes ixecootebles", zeen "tu cumpeele-a" moost be-a "tu >generete-a ixecootebles". Bork Bork Bork! Zeereffure-a, a JIT cumpeeler , by yuoor deffeenishun, "generetes in-memury ixecootebles", es ooppused >tu a mere-a cumpeeler, vheech vreetes zeem tu a medeeoom. Bork Bork Bork!
cumpeeles tu memury, vhet is herd tu understund? Bork Bork Bork! it shuoold be-a descreebe-a trunsletes choonks ooff prugrem tu neteefe-a cude-a
unteel zee prugrem reseedes in memury. Bork Bork Bork! Its a FM veet zee bytecude-a trunsleshun step remufed. Bork Bork Bork!
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Cumpeeler: A prugrem vheech prudooces ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Roonteeme-a:A prugrem vheech lueds unuzeer prugrem es tup ixecooshun leyer
Furtooel mecheene-a:A prugrem vheech ixecootes bytecude-a
Interpreter:A Furtooel Mecheene-a vheech roons screepts
JIT:A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
Iff oooor suceeety seems mure-a neehilistic thun thet ooff prefeeuoos ires, perheps thees is seemply a seegn ooff oooor metooreety es a senteeent speceees.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 15:32
>>483
>FV is simply an idiot who's content with redefining common CS terms. How does this require several dozen posts to argue?
Personally, I'm just trying to make him realize how stupid it is to try to redefine any of these terms. Defining even one creates a cascade and you end up redefining everything.
Hmm, seems FrozenVoid is spinning off his original, not-a-true-assembler troll. When he argued that any assembly language which is not x86 is not a true assembly language.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 15:39
>>485
>virtual machines that run machine code. JVM runs bytecode.
The JVM was an example of a general VM? You want an example of VM that runs machine and isn't an emulator? Fine.
I write a virtual stack machine. I design the instruction set from scratch. I feed it machine code.
Is it an emulator? No.
Does it run bytecode? No.
>compiles to memory, what is hard to understand? it should be describe translates chunks of program to native code until the program resides in memory. Its a VM with the bytecode translation step removed.
Look, you're the one trying to write Frozen Void's Dictionary of Computer Science. I'm just going by your own definitions:
JIT: A program which runs scripts and temporary *compiles* them into memory
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
To compile (Derivation): to use a program to produce executables.
JIT (Expansion): A program which runs scripts and temporary produces executables from them into memory
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 15:40
>>486
Am I a bad person for kind of liking Swedish Void?
>>487 Personally, I'm just trying to make him realize how stupid it is to try to redefine any of these terms.
Stop, just stop, you are the one that's stupid.
>>484 UPX is just a self-extracting archive which extracts to memory.
It has nothing to do with VM,Runtimes,JIT or anything mentioned(its like a prog.exe.zip which loads into memory as prog.exe).
Decompression
UPX supports two mechanisms for decompression - an in-place technique and extraction to temporary file.
The in-place technique, which decompresses the executable into memory, is not possible on all supported platforms. The rest use extraction to temporary file. This procedure involves additional overhead and other disadvantages; however, it allows any executable file format to be packed. The executable is extracted to a temporary location, and then open() is used to obtain a file descriptor.
____________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
A different conception of society, very different from that which now prevails, is in process of formation.
>>484 UPX is joost a selff-ixtrecteeng ercheefe vheech ixtrects tu memury. Bork Bork Bork!
It hes nutheeng tu du veet FM,Roonteemes,JIT oor unytheeng menshuned(its leeke-a a prug.ixe-a.zeep vheech lueds intu memury es prug.ixe-a). Bork Bork Bork!
Decumpresseeun
UPX sooppurts tvu mechuneesms fur decumpresseeun - un in-plece-a techneeqooe-a und ixtrecshun tu tempurery feele-a. Bork Bork Bork!
Zee in-plece-a techneeqooe-a, vheech decumpresses zee ixecooteble-a intu memury, is nut pusseeble-a oon ell sooppurted pletffurms. Bork Bork Bork! Zee rest use-a ixtrecshun tu tempurery feele-a. Bork Bork Bork! Thees prucedoore-a infulfes eddeeshunel ooferheed und oozeer deesedfunteges; hooefer, it elloos uny ixecooteble-a feele-a furmet tu be-a pecked. Bork Bork Bork! Zee ixecooteble-a is ixtrected tu a tempurery luceshun, und zeen oopee() is used tu oobteeen a feele-a descreeptur. Bork Bork Bork!
>>492
Actually it does, UPX unpacks code it has within itself and maps it into memory to be executed.
SBCL maps code it has within itself into memory to be executed.
>>494 UPX doesn't write the UPX packer into the result program memory and neither the result program depends on UPX.
Its just serves as shell. you can't unpack SBCL bundled with prog.bin and remove SBCL.exe, because then your program would not run. read >>470 2.vm.exe is bundled with prog.bin in same file and configured to execute prog.bin on startup
_______________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
He often argued that human intelligence was more trouble than it was worth. It was more destructive than creative, more confusing than revealing, more discouraging than satisfying, more spiteful than charitable.
Clear distinction:
You can unpack UPX packed .exe files and run them.
You can't "unpack" any .exe from the VM bundle.
________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
The crucial and monumental development in the art music of our century has been the qualitative change in the foundational premises of our musical language--the change from a highly chromaticized tonality whose principle functions and operations are still based on a limited selection, the seven notes of the diatonic scale, from the universal set of twelve pitch classes to a scale that comprehends the total pitch-class content of that universal set. We can point to the moment of that change with some precision. It occurs most obviously in the music of Scriabin and the Vienna circle, Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg, in 1909-1910, and very soon afterwards, though less obviously, in the music of Bartok and Stravinsky. I think it is safe to say that nothing of comparable signifigance for music has ever occurred, because the closing of the circle of fifths gives us a symmetrical collection of all twelve pitch classes that eliminates the special structural function of the perfect fifth itself, which has been the basis of every real musical system that we have hitherto known.
>>495
The UPX loader does remain in memory (Section UPX1), and the program does not depend on it.
SBCL.exe itself is a loader ( about 90KB if you strip debug symbols (easy 2 minute task), the official build is 2MB only because is includes the debug symbols ), it loads the core into memory and provides Garbage Collection, and some exception handling code. It would be possible to move the GC and Exception handling part into the image, but it's nothing that important. You keep forgetting that the .core file contains native code too, and the code is ran directly after loading.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 16:07
>>497
But Fivs, your definition of a compiler is completely wrong! A compiler is just a translator, and has nothing to do with producing executable files. If anything, that's the linker's job!
>>499 Its just more steps in the VM("provides Garbage Collection, and some exception handling code")
1.vm.exe loads core.bin
2.vm.exe executes core.bin
3.core.bin translates file.lisp to file.bin
4.vm.exe is bundled with file.bin instead of core.bin >>500 see >>467
____________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding.
>>501
Sure, but there is no need for core.bin to translate file.lisp to file.bin, if you tree-shake the core file, it will only contain the functions your application needs. If such functionality is similar to what you would require of a libc, there is no need for this file to be large at all.
".bin"/.core/.fasl is supposed to be a non-standard object file format (similar to obj or dll) containing native code, which can be mapped into memory and run directly by the CPU/OS.
A VM in a more correct definition, has to execute some sort of bytecode, but in this case, the small loader doesn't execute any bytecode, all it does is map executable native code into memory and just lets the CPU run it.
A better analogy can be made here:
Think of .obj files produced by your C compiler as similar to .fasl or .core.
Think of sbcl.exe as link.exe which write to memory instead of an executable.
The analogy is not technically correct, as the structure of those 2 formats differs widely, however both do contain native executable code which is meant to be ran directly, and link.exe does not provide garbage collection or exception handling, but the general concept still applies.
here is side by side comparison from VM/Runtime and Compiler
Step#1: compiling
VM:1.vm.exe or compiler.exe create prog.bin from prog.txt
Compiler:1.Compiler.exe creates prog.exe from prog.txt
Step#2:executing
VM :2.vm.exe loads prog.bin, which is then executed. VM.exe can stay in emeory to support multipel prog.bin's or to provide fast startup times(JVM). Many VM's have different options and settings.
2.1. VM which execute text files: these are interpreters, they translate the text into native and run it(in contetx of VM).
2.2. VM which execute bytecode: these are true VMs, which translate bytecode to native code(which is subsequently run).
2.3. VM which execute binary images:These are emulators for hardware or layers above native code(virtualization).
Compiler: 2. prog.exe is executed. There is nothing else. Teh program runs and terminates.
________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
The basic objectives and principles of war do not change.The final objective in war is the destruction of the enemy's capacity and will to fight, and thereby force him to accept the imposition of the victor's will.
>>503 I'm not going to argue about which format .core is
If sbcl compiler suite does not translate .core file into .exe files it fails as compiler.
Its like if GCC always stopped at .obj step, isn't this stupid?
small loader doesn't execute any bytecode, all it does is map executable native code into memory and just lets the CPU run it. Why i need this small loader? Why not create .exe from this "executable native code"?
_____________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
More laws can't make us safe from the tragedies that are the inevitable result of freedom, and of living around other people. Life is real, life is uncertain, life is inevitably unsafe. Measures to make it safe at all costs come with dangers of their own.
>>503 I'm nut gueeng tu ergooe-a ebuoot vheech furmet .cure-a is
Iff sbcl cumpeeler sooeete-a dues nut trunslete-a .cure-a feele-a intu .ixe-a feeles it feeels es cumpeeler. Bork Bork Bork!
Its leeke-a iff GCC elveys stupped et .oobj step, isn't thees stoopeed? Bork Bork Bork!
smell lueder duesn't ixecoote-a uny bytecude-a, ell it dues is mep ixecooteble-a neteefe-a cude-a intu memury und joost lets zee CPOo roon it. Bork Bork Bork! Vhy i need thees smell lueder? Bork Bork Bork! Vhy nut creete-a .ixe-a frum thees "ixecooteble-a neteefe-a cude-a"? Bork Bork Bork!
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Cumpeeler: A prugrem vheech prudooces ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Roonteeme-a:A prugrem vheech lueds unuzeer prugrem es tup ixecooshun leyer
Furtooel mecheene-a:A prugrem vheech ixecootes bytecude-a
Interpreter:A Furtooel Mecheene-a vheech roons screepts
JIT:A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
Mure-a levs cun't meke-a us seffe-a frum zee tregedeees thet ere-a zee inefeeteble-a resoolt ooff freedum, und ooff leefing eruoond oozeer peuple-a. Bork Bork Bork! Leeffe-a is reel, leeffe-a is uncerteeen, leeffe-a is inefeetebly unseffe-a. Bork Bork Bork! Meesoores tu meke-a it seffe-a et ell custs cume-a veet dungers ooff zeeur oovn.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 17:11
>>506 Its like if GCC always stopped at .obj step, isn't this stupid?
gcc does do that.
First it compiles to Assembly, then it calls the assembler, then it calls the linker.
I doubt there's any compiler that generates full executables without calling another program.
I would accept a Lisp compiler on these conditions:
It would produce prog.exe from prog.exe by executing LispCompiler.exe -flag prog.txt
Any code which LispCompiler.exe produces must not depend on LispCompiler.exe or any libraries/runtimes which LispCompiler.exe installation program installs, it should be distributable across computers as single prog.exe file.
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Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
There can be no liberty for a community which lacks the means to detect lies.
___________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
He often argued that human intelligence was more trouble than it was worth. It was more destructive than creative, more confusing than revealing, more discouraging than satisfying, more spiteful than charitable.
I could argue that these details are completly unimportant when it comes to the speed or inconvience to the user/player, but why would I, you've practically disqualified any languages except raw assembler (without OS dependencies). You should worry less about what language you will use, but in what language people might be interested to code in. How many people in [spoiler]/prog/[spoiler] are willing to contribute to your project and how many know whatever language you will chose and how many are willing to write a game in it. This discussion is pointless unless you consider these matters.
>>513 Its not the case with SBCL, which is missing the linker part.
____________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
The basic objectives and principles of war do not change.The final objective in war is the destruction of the enemy's capacity and will to fight, and thereby force him to accept the imposition of the victor's will.
>>514
SBCL is not programmer-friendly or player-friendly.
Its not fit for development anyway. Arguments about its not being a VM will reduce to 2 points
1.Its not really a VM, "except this little loader".
2.Its not important that its a VM, its just very good at rapid app development.
Neither points are true. I'm removing compiler/VM definitions:they steal sig space and they only cause additional arguments.
>>517
Most lisp environments are not meant to be used directly when developing. Go watch that slime.mov that was posted earlier to see how it's supposed to work.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 17:56
What >>520 means to say is that whatever console command-line a Lisp provides is not meant for general use. Anyone with an ounce of sense uses some decent environment instead.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 18:30
let me guess, were still talking about what fucking language to use?
We were just arguing about FV's definitions of such terms as "compiler", "runtime", and "virtual machine".
Before that, we were also discussing that's impossible to write any sort of moderately complex program without linking a library at run time, which FV complained about because it involved installing or copying libraries. He wants the game to be a single executable without any dynamic dependencies.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-22 19:22
Hello /prog/! I would like this game to run on my toaster. Thank you!
>>274
See this is EXACTLY what I mean when I say you haven't done one lick of research. YOU CAN PACKAGE PYTHON CODE INTO A STANDALONE EXE. We used to do it all the time at my old company when we packaged our tools for external studios. The tool is called - wait for it - py2exe.
Second of all, are you really under the impression that you can package this game into one executable? Where are you gonna put all the media? You're gonna distribute this as a giant 3 gig EXE file? Are you on crack?
If you want to do that, why isn't the EXE file just an installer, like, hey, EVERY GODDAMN GAME IN EXISTENCE? Have you ever installed a video game? Even open source games, they all have installers.
So if you're sending down a package of media files anyway, what's one extra file python.dll in the package?
Seriously, your "no DLLs" rule is the most asinine language decision criteria I have *ever* seen *anyone* make. No halfway competent engineer would ever consider that when making a language decision. You're just incompetent.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-23 2:51
I realize that was a bit harsh, but you have to understand that we came here with the intention of helping and we're feeling nothing but frustration in return. I don't understand how you plan to get contributors with these attitudes. It's one thing to ask questions; it's quite another to be in charge and boss people around when you don't really have much of an idea what you're talking about.
Hey guys, give me a break; at least I'm not the one borkbork-ing his posts...
>>535
As the one who is borkborking his posts, I have to say: You are an idiot if you think you can work with FrozenVoid! I mean seriously, what are you thinking?
>>534 No the main file is standalone. Amount of dlls can vary as long as they remain in same directory as game.exe.
The rule is no VMs/Runtime/Interpreters. Python is an interpreter.
Packaging the interpreter with bytecode/scripts is not OK and its not a valid executable.
How many times i have to explain it?
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It doesn't matter how you feel inside, you know. It's what shows up on the surface that counts.
>>534 Nu zee meeen feele-a is stundelune-a. Bork Bork Bork! Emuoont ooff dlls cun fery es lung es zeey remeeen in seme-a durectury es geme-a.ixe-a. Bork Bork Bork!
Zee roole-a is nu FMs/Roonteeme-a/Interpreters. Bork Bork Bork! Pythun is un interpreter. Bork Bork Bork!
Peckegeeng zee interpreter veet bytecude-a/screepts is nut OoK und its nut a feleed ixecooteble-a. Bork Bork Bork!
Hoo muny teemes i hefe-a tu ixpleeen it? Bork Bork Bork!
>>534
FV would disqualify python because it's not compiled to native code, and py2exe because it's actually a wrapper for python + .pyc.
He disqualified more worthy languages which compile to native code, just because the generated code isn't packaged in an executable, but in a pseudo-object file(containg native code) + a small(90KB) loader/memory mapper executable (and you can pack both the "pseudo-object file" and loader in one executable).
MSVC++ and GCC are also disqualified by him, because they have "runtimes".
He doesn't understand that neither has any speed cost, or inconvenience to the user(unless done wrong).
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-23 3:26
>>537 The rule is no VMs/Runtime/Interpreters. Python is an interpreter.
WHY is this the rule?
Also, by the time you get *anywhere* on this project, this rule will no longer apply to Python because Google is building an LLVM JIT compiler for it (I mentioned it before; see 'unladen swallow').
>>536
I don't think anybody is seriously thinking that, unless they HBT. We're just here for the humor and being curious how will his ``project'' evolve.
>>540
JIT is disqualified under his rules as well. Not even statically compiled, but requiring a small garbage collection system, or small loader is allowed, even if it has no real speed penalty.
>>539 GCC isn' disqualified. It produces valid standalone executables.
You think of Cygwin and Cygwin1.dll probably(and they can be linked statically, so this isn't a problem).
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I turned my thoughts to a still more novel mode..to compose pictures on canvas similar to representations on the stage...my picture is my stage,and men and women my players exhibited in a 'dumb' show.
>>539 GCC isn' deesqooeliffied. Bork Bork Bork! It prudooces feleed stundelune-a ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Yuoo theenk ooff Cygveen und Cygveen1.dll prubebly(und zeey cun be-a leenked steteecelly, su thees isn't a prublem). Bork Bork Bork!
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I toorned my thuooghts tu a steell mure-a nufel mude-a..tu cumpuse-a peectoores oon cunfes seemiler tu representeshuns oon zee stege-a...my peectoore-a is my stege-a,und mee und vumee my pleyers ixheebited in a 'doomb' shoo.
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He often argued that human intelligence was more trouble than it was worth. It was more destructive than creative, more confusing than revealing, more discouraging than satisfying, more spiteful than charitable.
Syntax - 5
Easy to learn, but it would take a lot of time to produce anything that would take a few lines in a high level language.
Ease - 3
Easy to use, but unless macro facilities of the assembler are abused, it would take extended periods of time to produce code which would take seconds/minutes to write in a higher level language.
Speed -
10, and remove 2-3 points from all languages, or give it 12-13 points.
Libs
You can reuse any C library or OS API.
Small User written libs: 3
Anything C written or OS APIs : 10
Bugs
While it's possible to write bug-free assembly code, it's prone to all the bugs C is prone to and many more. 2
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-23 4:29
>>548 10, and remove 2-3 points from all languages, or give it 12-13 points.
Nah, nobody can write a sizeable program in assembly without it ending up slower than an equivalent program in a high-level language. You'd end up repeating work and using bad large-scale algorithms just because you had no idea what your program was doing overall. So just give it a highish number and leave the rest as-is.
>>548
Syntax:5 no change. Pretty average and straightforward batch execution.
Ease:3, assembler is hardest language long-term and short-term despite the relatively easy syntax.
anything takes longer and more complex paths when using asm. Reinventing the wheel in C is straightforward, in Asm
you have to mine the metals, forge them into a wheel shape and employ lots of manual labor. Ease remains at 0.
Speed:20, because anything can be optimized without limits of a language(sometimes up to 30-50 times faster then C): even assembler itself can be peppered with hexcodes for opcodes which don't get translated by the program. Speed is above any language because :they can be replicated in asm and they execute code which is equivalent to assembler. Speed remains the same.
Libs: Assembler libraries are practically non-existent and require specific assemblers.
I however will change the value to reflect you can use any library from C or any language/interface.12.
Bugs:Should be 0. Its the hardest language to debug and can contain as many bugs as all languages combined.
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Why do you insist that the human genetic code is "sacred" or "taboo"? It is a chemical process and nothing more. For that matter -we- are chemical processes and nothing more. If you deny yourself a useful tool simply because it reminds you uncomfortably of your mortality, you have uselessly and pointlessly crippled yourself.
>>550 Ease:3, assembler is hardest language long-term and short-term despite the relatively easy syntax.
I'll take x86 assembly anyday over brainfuck or similar.
>>554
Brainf. is esoteric language and isn't used for development of software.
Code on brainfuck is much larger then equivalent asm code and cannot use anything beyond VM's 8 commands.
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If soldiers were to begin to think, not one of them would remain in the army.
>>555 I am convinced asm would be a good choice provided:
1.an easy interface to OpenGL drivers.
2.a platform-agnostic set of code which can be ported between Linux and XP with minimum changes.
3.an assembler which has good macro support.
>>561
Technically OS APIs are builtin: the program cannot execute outside of OS. (which would require the program having OS functionality, like abootloader).
If no one objects i'm picking assembler as the language of choice. My reasons are below:
1.Its fastest and can be optimized without language interference.
2.No runtime overhead of any sort.(Though C runtime is negligible and built-in into OS).
3.The game is planned to include lots of intensive computations(everything is procedurally generated or built from fractals)
4.The code of the game will be using unconventional algos and lots of hacking. Any language limits are counterproductive here.
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The substructure of the universe regresses infinitely towards smaller and smaller components. Behind atoms we find electrons, and behind electrons, quarks. Each layer unraveled reveals new secrets, but also new mysteries.
OK I'm creating a table of free C compilers min 0/10 - max ~10/10:
Ease=how hard is to Install the compiler and compile test.exe
Syntax=How good the syntax compared to C standard: good implementation, extensions, partial implementation
Portability=How much platforms it runs on,and how much the code has to be modified to to compile.
Speed=Speed of result executable with max optimizations
Size=Size of executable
Compiler:Syntax Portability Ease Speed Size :Total
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GCC
TCC
DMC
Pelles
Watcom
PCC
LCC
TenDRA
Which ratings you think are fair?
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When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and there is nothing more to fear from them, then he is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader.
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Vhee zee tyrunt hes deespused ooff fureeegn inemeees by cunqooest oor treety, und zeere-a is nutheeng mure-a tu feer frum zeem, zeen he-a is elveys sturreeng up sume-a ver oor oozeer, in oorder thet zee peuple-a mey reqooure-a a leeder.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-23 7:40
>>570
Why the fuck would you have to INSTALL a C compiler?
Any system worth it's money (nothing hopefully) already has a C compilation toolchain installed.
The code will compile on every modern C compiler or there's a bug in the code which will be fixed.
>>572 In windows world 99% of computers don't have any C compiler or any C runtime beyond default built-in to OS.
The code should in theory be portable between compilers.
The project needs a base compiler against which all code must compile.
The choice is going to be compiler with most ratings and it will be installed by everyone who participates.
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The mind has greater power over the emotions and is less subject thereto, in so far as it understands all things as necessary.
>>572 In veendoos vurld 99% ooff cumpooters dun't hefe-a uny C cumpeeler oor uny C roonteeme-a beyund deffoolt booeelt-in tu OoS. Bork Bork Bork!
Zee cude-a shuoold in zeeury be-a purteble-a betveee cumpeelers. Bork Bork Bork!
Zee pruject needs a bese-a cumpeeler egeeenst vheech ell cude-a moost cumpeele-a.
Zee chueece-a is gueeng tu be-a cumpeeler veet must reteengs und it veell be-a instelled by iferyune-a vhu perteecipetes. Bork Bork Bork!
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Zee meend hes greeter pooer oofer zee imushuns und is less soobject zeeretu, in su fer es it understunds ell theengs es necessery.
Roadmap update:
#1 naming the project. Unique,non-copyrighted name which sounds good.
::name=Radiance
#2 choosing a Language/Library platform from which we will code the project.
::Language=C
#3 choosing a common compiler toolkit, so that everyone uses the same version of design software.
::Compiler=?,Library/API=?
#4 Creating or reusing existing engine into a space simulator.
#5 Adding physical effects and game features into simulator, until playable demo (single ship) is working.
#6 Adding player interface and dialog systems.
#7 Adding multimedia assets,character designs and unit textures.(procedurally/Fractally generated)
#8 Multiplayer support. Major multiplayer features like trading,alliance/commands/teams/etc.
#9 Distributing the alpha/beta via Sourceforge/Megaupload/Rapidshare/etc
#10 polishing the game so it has balance,intuitive interface and free of bugs.
Code storage: use http://codebin.ca/ for Storing code,post only relevant chunks(do not repost entire code)
>>577 "Not that I think anyone in /prog/ runs Windows though."
You underestimate that number. Alot of people also seem to use .Net and MS-Only software.
The game should be portable.
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A different conception of society, very different from that which now prevails, is in process of formation.
>>577 "Nut thet I theenk unyune-a in /prug/ roons Veendoos thuoogh."
Yuoo underesteemete-a thet noomber. Bork Bork Bork! Elut ooff peuple-a elsu seem tu use-a .Net und MS-Oonly sufftvere-a. Bork Bork Bork!
Zee geme-a shuoold be-a purteble-a. Bork Bork Bork!
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A deefffferent cuncepshun ooff suceeety, fery deefffferent frum thet vheech noo prefeeels, is in prucess ooff furmeshun.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-23 8:20
"Radiance" sounds like something invented by a pretentious fifteen years old homosexual, who had just barely enough taste not to venture further into the land of banal pompous meaningless oxymorons like "Dark Radiance", "Black Radiance" or whatever.
What is the meaning of that name, anyways? What is going to emit radiance in the game and why is that important?
No, it's totally unacceptable name, its reek of immaturity would scare away all developers.
>>580 see >>31
This can be changed lif you suggest a better alternative.
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The facts we see depend on where we are placed and the habits of our eyes.
FV claimed the language that /prog/ preferred would be the one chosen, but half the thread consists of him producing arbitrary rules in order to disqualify perfectly good languages. And he didn't even do a good job, as Forth is a virtual machine language (not that everyone would have considered Forth in the first place).
How the fuck did C end up being chosen when C++ had .7 points more?
And Assembly had 37 points. Are you out of your fucking mind? Do you intend to finish within ten years? What about the fact that no part of the game will need to run that fast and that you'll be condemning it to a single architecture?
Fuck you, FV. If you just wanted to use C, why didn't you said so from the beginning instead of wasting 500 posts and four days?
>>583 The problem people can't settle on language and some language are obviously better/worse then others.
How the fuck did C end up being chosen when C++ had .7 points more?
The advantage in libraries vs more complex syntax.
If you want to change the language: Any C++ compiler chosen should compile C.
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Justice is not revenge - it's deciding for a solution that is oriented towards peace, peace being the harder but more human way of reacting to injury. That is the very basis of the idea of rights.
This is not much change in principle and can be easily fixed:
#1 naming the project. Unique,non-copyrighted name which sounds good.
::name=Radiance
#2 choosing a Language/Library platform from which we will code the project.
::Language=C++ with mainly C code(C++ for libraries which are C++ only)
#3 choosing a common compiler toolkit, so that everyone uses the same version of design software.
::Compiler=,Library=
#4 Creating or reusing existing engine into a space simulator.
#5 Adding physical effects and game features into simulator, until playable demo (single ship) is working.
#6 Adding player interface and dialog systems.
#7 Adding multimedia assets,character designs and unit textures.(procedurally/Fractally generated)
#8 Multiplayer support. Major multiplayer features like trading,alliance/commands/teams/etc.
#9 Distributing the alpha/beta via Sourceforge/Megaupload/Rapidshare/etc
#10 polishing the game so it has balance,intuitive interface and free of bugs.
Code storage: use http://codebin.ca/ for Storing code,post only relevant chunks(do not repost entire code)
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A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have
Thees is nut mooch chunge-a in preenciple-a und cun be-a ieseely feexed:
#1 nemeeng zee pruject. Bork Bork Bork! Uneeqooe-a,nun-cupyreeghted neme-a vheech suoonds guud. Bork Bork Bork!
::neme-a=Redeeunce-a
#2 chuuseeng a Lungooege-a/Leebrery pletffurm frum vheech ve-a veell cude-a zee pruject. Bork Bork Bork!
::Lungooege-a=C++ veet meeenly C cude-a(C++ fur leebreries vheech ere-a C++ oonly)
#3 chuuseeng a cummun cumpeeler tuulkeet, su thet iferyune-a uses zee seme-a ferseeun ooff deseegn sufftvere-a. Bork Bork Bork!
::Cumpeeler=,Leebrery=
#4 Creeteeng oor reooseeng ixeesting ingeene-a intu a spece-a seemooletur. Bork Bork Bork!
#5 Eddeeng physeecel iffffects und geme-a feetoores intu seemooletur, unteel pleyeble-a demu (seengle-a sheep) is vurkeeng. Bork Bork Bork!
#6 Eddeeng pleyer interffece-a und deeelug systems. Bork Bork Bork!
#7 Eddeeng moolteemedia essets,cherecter deseegns und uneet textoores.(prucedoorelly/Frectelly genereted)
#8 Moolteepleyer sooppurt. Bork Bork Bork! Mejur moolteepleyer feetoores leeke-a tredeeng,elleeunce-a/cummunds/teems/itc. Bork Bork Bork!
#9 Deestribooting zee elpha/beta feea Suoorceffurge-a/Megooplued/Repeedshere-a/itc
#10 puleeshing zee geme-a su it hes belunce-a,intooeetife-a interffece-a und free-a ooff boogs. Bork Bork Bork!
Cude-a sturege-a: use-a http://cudebeen.ca/ fur Stureeng cude-a,pust oonly relefunt choonks(du nut repust inture-a cude-a)
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A gufernment beeg inuoogh tu geefe-a yuoo iferytheeng yuoo vunt, is beeg inuoogh tu teke-a evey iferytheeng yuoo hefe
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-23 8:59
::Language=C++ with mainly C code(C++ for libraries which are C++ only)
What's the point? C++ can do the work of both. Why do you need both C and C++?
And you don't even know what libraries you're going to need, let alone their language.
>>590what libraries It will be chosen after the compiler.
So which C++ compiler will be the platform on which game development
Compiler:Syntax Portability Ease Speed Size :Total
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GCC
ConceptGCC
DMC
Sun Studio
TenDRA
TurboC++
Watcom
Rate each of them in the table, and suggest any omitted compilers(must be free to download)
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Free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
>>593 yeah, GCC is pretty standard. I have nothing else which can produce progs as fast as GCC either.
Lets skip to the next Step:
#1 naming the project. Unique,non-copyrighted name which sounds good.
::name=Radiance
#2 choosing a Language/Library platform from which we will code the project.
::Language=C++
#3 choosing a common compiler toolkit, so that everyone uses the same version of design software.
::Compiler=G++(GCC),Library=?
#4 Creating or reusing existing engine into a space simulator.
#5 Adding physical effects and game features into simulator, until playable demo (single ship) is working.
#6 Adding player interface and dialog systems.
#7 Adding multimedia assets,character designs and unit textures.(procedurally/Fractally generated)
#8 Multiplayer support. Major multiplayer features like trading,alliance/commands/teams/etc.
#9 Distributing the alpha/beta via Sourceforge/Megaupload/Rapidshare/etc
#10 polishing the game so it has balance,intuitive interface and free of bugs.
Code storage: use http://codebin.ca/ for Storing code,post only relevant chunks(do not repost entire code)
What Library/API/Engine should serve as the basis for graphics rendering?
The obvious choices:
1. Pick a high performance Game Engine written in C++ and extend it for game needs.
2. Pick OpenGL or similar level library(e.g. Mesa3d) and code the engine around it.
______________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Patriots always talk of dying for their country, and never of killing for their country.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-23 13:43
>>596 1. Pick a high performance Game Engine written in C++ and extend it for game needs.
Not in /prog/.
2. Pick OpenGL or similar level library(e.g. Mesa3d) and code the engine around it.
No. You will need cross-platform windowing routines. SDL provides this and is popular. It's drawing stuff sucks ass, but it can create OpenGL contexts, so that's what we'll do.
Name:
Darkkal !CTaNqTxDio2009-07-23 13:45
where could i get said "G++"? im having a little trouble finding it. i know the GCC website...but...
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-23 13:46
Crystal Space, Irrlicht, or some OGRE based solution.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-23 14:00
600 get >>598
It should be already installed when you install the GCC compiler collection.
>>598 G++.exe is GCC C++ compiler (can be invoked via gcc/c++/g++ and probably cc1plus with parameters)
Included with all MinGW distributions.
Choice #1:----------------------------
Crystal Space is a framework for developing 3D applications written in C++ by Jorrit Tyberghein and others. The first public release was on August 26, 1997.[1] It is typically used as a game engine but the framework is more general and can be used for any kind of *3D visualization. It is very *portable and runs on Microsoft Windows, GNU/Linux, UNIX, and Mac OS X. It is also free software, licensed under GNU Lesser General Public License, and was SourceForge.net's Project of the Month for February 2003.[2]
It can optionally use *OpenGL (on all platforms), *SDL (all SDL platforms), *X11 (Unix or GNU/Linux) and *SVGALib (GNU/Linux). It can also optionally use assembler routines using *NASM and *MMX.
Choice #2----------------
Irrlicht (pronounced [ˈɪɐ̯lɪçt] in German) is an open source 3D engine written in C++. It is *cross-platform, officially running on Windows, Mac OS X, Linux and Windows CE and due to its open nature ports to other systems including the Xbox, PlayStation Portable[1], SymbianOS[2] and iPhone[3] are available.
Irrlicht is known for its *small size and *compatibility with new and older hardware alike, a *shallow learning curve and a large friendly community[4][5]. Unofficial *bindings for many languages exist including .NET[6], Java[7], Perl[8], Ruby[9], Python[10], FreeBASIC, Lua[11], Delphi[12][13], C++ Builder[14] and even Game Maker[15].
Irrlicht's development started in 2003 with only one developer, Nikolaus Gebhardt.[16] Only after the 1.0 release of Irrlicht in 2006 the team grew to currently ten members, most of them developers.[17]
Choice #3-------------------------------
OGRE (Object-Oriented Graphics Rendering Engine) is a *scene-oriented, *flexible 3D rendering engine (as opposed to a game engine) written in C++ designed to make it easier and *intuitive for developers to produce applications utilising hardware-accelerated 3D graphics. The class library abstracts the details of using the underlying system libraries like Direct3D and OpenGL and provides an interface based on *world objects and other *high level classes.
OGRE has a very active community, and was Sourceforge.net's project of the month in March 2005.[2] It has been used in some commercial games like Anarchy Online and Ankh.
1.0.0 ("Azathoth") was released in February 2005. The current release in the 1.x.y series is 1.6.2 ("Shoggoth"), released in April 2009. Released under the terms of a modified GNU Lesser General Public License, the engine is free software. The modification to this license allows users to statically link the library under the same terms as dynamic linking, though a distinction made by the LGPL.
-------------------
Which of them is better suited for game development?
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Well, as tragic as all this is, it's a small price to pay for countless hours of top-notch entertainment!
>>607
Who the hell cares if gcc is GPL, are you going to need to link against a C compiler for your program?
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-23 21:05
>>609
if you install any GPLed software, your entire operating system becomes non-free.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-23 21:05
>>609
I think they were just trolls. Nobody needs to link to the compiler when writing this game.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-23 21:45
>>564
Okay now you have to be trolling. Either you're trolling or you're completely fucking braindead. You are choosing straight up *ASSEMBLY* as the language in which to write a high performance 3D game. You're mad. That's it. I feel like I wouldn't be doing my civic duty if I didn't check you into a mental hospital right now.
>>601
Oh holy fuck look, three C++ engines all with Python bindings. Guess what everyone but the LISP retards were telling you 500 fucking posts ago.
Don't go with Irrlicht, the *only* benefit it has over the rest is that it's BSD licensed and you're doing this open source anyway so it doesn't matter.
You probably want Crystal Space just because it's a real game engine and not just a 3D renderer. You don't have the technical capability to do any of that yourself so just use Crystal Space.
But hold on a sec. Before we go any further, I want to take a big long moment to tell you "I told you so". Since you're using a 3D engine, 99.99% of the running time of your app will be inside the library, so it doesn't matter what language you choose. TADA! Speed = irrelevant.
Also, just to let you know one last thing; these engines typically work *better* when they are packaged as separate DLLs instead of statically linked into one big fat executable. And they will be easier to compile, and distribute, and etc.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-23 22:04
>>611
But >>602-605 are still right. The GPL is not free.
>>612
Just now you realize FV is trolling? This whole thread is nothing but one huge troll.
>>619
Eventually 3d, but for reasons of simplicity, 2d support will be implemented first, since adding the extra dimension is simple. The 1d phase is expected to be very short.
I got a good name for this: Velox Et Astrum
It's latin for 'Starfleet'. Or more literally 'Naval Fleet in the Stars'
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 0:44
>>622-chan here. C++ would be my suggestion for the language we use. It's very low level which will give us good speed. It's got great libraries for us to use. It's object oriented which means that its more geared for big projects like this one as opposed to C(Structs are great and all, but with C++ we can give our objects functionality beyond variables). Also, it is my opinion that most people on this thread at least know enough C/C++ to be able to carry out programming tasks assigned to them with little 'extra learning'.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 0:47
>>621
No, if we attempted to work through all those we'd be creating an infinite amount of work for ourselves, even though each individual advance would admittedtly be easy.
>>623 Expecting people to program in C++ as a hobby.
Yeah, I'll get right on that as soon as I finish mortifying my flesh.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 0:47
since adding the extra dimension is simple
Is it really that easy to take a 2D game to 3D?
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 1:14
>>625
Much easier than writing a 1d game, and a little bit easier than adding 2d to that, because the more dimensions you have already, the smaller the change is, proportionally. This is why 4d games are especially easy. In b4 “u mena time?”
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 1:24
>>626
In that case, a four-dimensional space game in two-dimensional time should be a piece of cake.
>>612 Assembly would employed in critical parts to speed up algos. C++ is chosen as main language. >>613 The claim about x% of time in the library is not relevant:
After the general game mechanics/visuals(coords,trackers(trajectory/velocity),collisions,HUDs,Starfield,radar,etc) are merged with the engine:
the plan is as follows:
1.a an object is generated via procedural/fractal algorithms. Bumpmaps are generated via equations of shape.
2.Its texture is generated in similar way. In simple cases its just fillcolor(object)
3.Its send to the engine for rendering at x,y,z.
engine serves as dumb and fast pipeline for rendering.We are choosing engine to not bother coding all low-level OpenGL object generation routines which are already present on engine. >>620 The project will be 3D from the start >>622 Velox Et Astrum. Sounds somewhat better then radiance, no copyright issues.
Project name is changed to : Velox Et Astrum. >>631 Eragon is high-fantasy, the game is futuristic sci-fi >>632 All music will be fractally generated.
__________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
The potential for mischief varies inversely with one's proximity to the authority figure.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 2:11
>>627 here.
I would also like to suggest non-Euclidean space. Preferably spherical or torus-shaped.
>>635 Will be noted when wormholes&blackholes are added to engines. If its not much work the system would just compress coords to take less space when black hole is approached and slow down the ship, gradually drawing it closer.
if the ship doesn't warp away on collision initiates damage routines(basically ship is destroyed).
Wormholes would be the same with much weaker effect(proportional to throat diameter) that ends when you exit the throat on the other side.
Draft energy system(my suggestion is not final or authoritative):
Ship runs on energy, which is replenished via rest(slow),crystals(medium increase), repair in docks(instant).
Energy system: All energy aboard ship is shared between:
1. Shields. Regenerates the hitpoints and protects ship from damage.
High energy: High-regen,High-Defense Shields.
2.Engines:Engines use energy when ship is moving or warping(high-use).
High Energy:Allows to use warp multiple time,Engine uses energy proportional to speed.
3.Weapons: All weapons use energy proportional to damage(of the weapons class).
High Energy: Weapons can fire longer without recharge.
Energy can be used for special abilities like subspace scan(long range radar map),superweapons(highdmg, energy draining weapons),etc.
>>640 Its merely a display effect:
It will just show more coords on screen when you near blackhole.
Like if you zoomed out in camera view, but the ship is closer and objects are drawn at same positions.
Also note you can switch between multiple ships(as long as they under command of you/your team) at any time.
Bases contain docks,defense/cargo facilities and factories.((<-analogue to starcraft production facilities) and you can build bases anywhere).
Allied/Owned Ships could be scripted to follow you or engage in battle if lead ship attacks(Should be expanded to complete parameter-driven AI).
The game strategy should include full range of global confrontations(team base1 vs team base2), 1vs1 tactical engagements, raids on bases,scenario-driven defense/offense scenarios,cargo transport escort vs pirates,etc.
Resources: All resources are converted to energy(for ships systems/base/unit production) and energy can be stored in crystals for trade.
Draft resource table:
1.Asteroids : Crystals mined by cargo ships with equipment.
2.Planets:Planets surface contain crystals, same as above but larger resources.
3.Destroyed ships:Ships matter converted to energy equivalent of shipcost/2+all ships onboard resources
4.Bonus items: same as crystals, just give more energy per item/crystal.
____________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
It is from numberless diverse acts of courage and belief that human history, is shaped. Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 3:47
>>638 Ship runs on energy, which is replenished via rest(slow),crystals(medium increase), repair in docks(instant).
That's too unrealistic, make it fuel instead.
More on ship-switching:
In-game all team ships are ordered with a ship order(which can be altered by individual player for their needs)
If a ship is destroyed pressing <Tab> switches to next alive(AI controlled) ship in ship order. if no ships left <Tab> Switches to base.
if you accidentally switched to another ship<Shift-Tab> will switch to previously commanded ship.
___________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Uncertainty is the essential, inevitable and all-pervasive companion to your desire to make art. And tolerance for uncertainty is the prerequisite to succeeding
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 3:57
I hope we wont have harvesters in this game. I hate that crap.
>>647 Cargo ships!= Harvesters.
1.Cargo ships transport cargo to bases.
2.They need special mining equipment to mine asteroids/planets
3.They can be equipped with weaponry as any other ship(weapons are absent on cargo ships by default. Combat ships have 3 default weapons which can be upgraded and switched to any other weapon).
(as cargo ships are not meant for combat, but for transport their characteristics are lower(hitpoints/shields/armor), and they are cheaper then combat ships).
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There can be no liberty for a community which lacks the means to detect lies.
Draft weapon table:
1.Plasma turret; short range, slow, high-dmg. Energy use: High to medium
2.Lasers: long range,very fast, medium dmg(Default on combat ship).Energy use: Medium(Laser can be reflected if shields are at max).
3.Tracking missle:long range,medium speed, high-dmg. Energy use:High
4.Mines; close range,zero speed,low damage(revealed by radar,can be blown by area of effect weapons):
Energy use: low, laying minefields will be expensive but create enough damage to destroy ships.
5.Gravity wave:medium range,slow,high-dmg area of effect.: Energy use: Very high(superweapon)
6.Proton torpedo:long range missle,slow, area of effect with medium-dmg(activated on impact with object):Energy use low to medium.
7.Phaser:long range,very fast,low dmg(used as low-energy laser alternative in combat ships, cannot be reflected) .Energy use: Low
8.Trilithium pulse:medium range,fast,shield-dmg(only drains ship shields): Energy use:Medium to High
9.Sentient particle cloud:long range,slow,low-dmg,persistent(slowly eats ships in radius,dissolves after set time(+cloudtimemax after last ship touched it)):Energy use: Very High(Superweapon)
10.Ion Cannon:Long-range,highdmg,medium speed(can destory planets,asteroids); Energy use;Very high(Superweapon)
11.Antimatter missle:Long range, high-dmg,slow(can destroy ships on contact):Energy use: High
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...what we call education and culture is for the most part nothing but the substitution of reading for experience, of literature for life, of the obsolete fictitious for the contemporary real...
>>651 Combat ships are not meant for storage or mining. They should only store a fraction of cargo ship max capacity.
This should be enough to fully recharge ship in-game for ~100-300 times(about ~5000 crystals if ship has that much).
Cargo ships could hold as much as 30-50 asteroids can hold(~100000-200000 crystals?) or more with upgrades.
>>649
Base weapons would destroy single combat ships and especially cargo ships easily(base weapons are as much as upgradeable as ships). Raids on bases are organized with precise coordination and plenty of combat ships.
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Refusal to believe until proof is given is a rational position; denial of all outside of our own limited experience is absurd.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 5:10
Im gonna start coding this in java YOU ALL CAN SUCK IT
>>656 Maybe you can suggest ideas or algos for project. I don't object if you code it in Lisp/Java/Visual basic/etc as your own project. The Main language is C++ and game code will be posted @ http://codebin.ca/
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After a long period of slumber comes a moment of awakening. Then thought frees herself from the chains with which those interested - rulers, lawyers, clerics - have carefully enwound her.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 5:25
>>652 3.Tracking missle:long range,medium speed, high-dmg. Energy use:High
Why would a missile use energy? Missiles have their own propulsion system and their own fuel tanks. The only limit here should be how many missiles the ship can carry. I guess they would use up some of the ship's fuel due to the added weight though.
Draft ship classes:
1.fighter-class: light,fast ship,with low armor.Weapons max upgrade+3
2.Fregate-class:medium size, fast ship,+6maxups
3.battlecruiser-class:heavy armored ship for base defense/offense,medium speed,+9maxups
4.base-class:extra heavy,high armor,very slow,high shields,+12maxups
5.mothership-class;a smaller mobile base;slow,reduced space/with more weapons+15 maxups
6.unique-fighter:race specific ship,with some bonuses+9maxups
*upgrades increase dmg at expense of more energy per use.
__________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
The substructure of the universe regresses infinitely towards smaller and smaller components. Behind atoms we find electrons, and behind electrons, quarks. Each layer unraveled reveals new secrets, but also new mysteries.
#1 naming the project. Unique,non-copyrighted name which sounds good.
::name=Velox Et Astrum
#2 choosing a Language/Library platform from which we will code the project.
::Language=C++
#3 choosing a common compiler toolkit, so that everyone uses the same version of design software.
::Compiler=g++(GCC),Library=Ogre3D
#4 Creating or reusing existing engine into a space simulator.
::Current=Basic Features review.
#5 Adding physical effects and game features into simulator, until playable demo (single ship) is working.
#6 Adding player interface and dialog systems.
#7 Adding multimedia assets,character designs and unit textures.(procedurally/Fractally generated)
#8 Multiplayer support. Major multiplayer features like trading,alliance/commands/teams/etc.
#9 Distributing the alpha/beta via Sourceforge/Megaupload/Rapidshare/etc
#10 polishing the game so it has balance,intuitive interface and free of bugs.
Code storage: use http://codebin.ca/ for Storing code,post only relevant chunks(do not repost entire code)
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Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 8:50
>>661
But... you don't have unlimited missiles, you only have the ones you loaded the ship with earlier (while docked at a port or with another ship perhaps).
>>66 All weapon modules(as well as unit production buildings) run on energy.
There is no matter limits, only crystals as energy storage units.
Tracking missles are created from energy at the moment of use.
_______________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Science is not a game in which arbitrary rules are used to decide what explanations are to be permitted.
What anime characters can be incorporated into game design without much copyright concern?
(its is planned to pilots have a framed picture, and choice of different pilots pics as avatars for players).
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One has not only a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
>>670 All weapon modules(as well as unit production buildings) run on energy. There is no matter limits, only crystals as energy storage units. Tracking missles are created from energy at the moment of use.
You said we weren't going to make a fantasy game. For it to be a science-fiction game the magic (a hovering missile created from pure energy? no sir!) must be kept to a minimum. No "energy." (Except as a product of burning fuel. What else could the megawatt lasers be powered by?)
___________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
You're supposed to be developing verbal abilities for your big aptitude test tomorrow.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 13:33
>>678
How does that equate to a hovering missile? A mine?
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our array warning sensors can help us, for the mind worms infiltrate through every crevice and chew through anything softer than plasma-steel.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 13:43
>>681
That doesn't sound very efficient.
And what are these "crystals" made of, and why can they contain the energy equivalent of an entire spaceship?
Can the crystals be used as weapons?
>>682 Crystals are used as storage units. They are mined and can be recharged.
Naturally occuring crystals contain 1/10 - 2/10 of their max energy.
If the energy inside a crystal exceeds the molecular matrix maximum capacity its explosively released.
I'm going to add "crystal concentrator overload" as weapon of for cargo ships(it will destroy the cargo ships,the crystal and everything in radius of several light years).
Normally energy cannot be extracted without special equipment(its locked in the crystal's matrix), which creates a pressure wave inside a crystal stimulating massive photon production.
Other energy generation options will be added , black hole reactors(converts mass to energy,requires asteroids or chunks of mass)(base-only for now), space-time vibrational collectors(which operate on space-time distortions cause by large object stealing their gravitational/movement energy) and photon arrays(which collect star's energy in all electromagnetic ranges).
Why do you have to add all this magic when pretty much everything can be implemented with modern day technology. (Without magic wormholes there would be no travel between star systems.)
I'm going to add "crystal concentrator overload" as weapon of for cargo ships(it will destroy the cargo ships,the crystal and everything in radius of several light years).
What the fuck.
New weapon:Crystal concentrator overload:Superweapon(self-destructive).
requires: Cargo ship+min 1000crystals,
Process,activate crystal concentrator on all stored crystals. Energy is stored in single crystal at once. Its matrix cannot handle the pressure and all energy is explosively released: the cargo ship is destroyed and every ship in X radius is
destroyed too. Damage far away(>X and less then X*2) from crystal concentrator overload will be calculated as percentage of distance to source of explosion(e.g. 20% further then X will have damage for 20% of ships hitpoints).
__________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
The substructure of the universe regresses infinitely towards smaller and smaller components. Behind atoms we find electrons, and behind electrons, quarks. Each layer unraveled reveals new secrets, but also new mysteries.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 13:59
This is boring. Let's go back to arguing over interesting things instead of gameplay and fluff.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 14:04
>>684
Why even have travel between star systems? Gratuitous. Space is already bigger than you'll know what to do with.
>>684 travel is handled by
1.Wormhole(permanent location)
2.subspace portals(temporary)
3.warp( warp mode simply allows the spaceship to skip space-time regions in predetermined chunks at expense of energy.
While traveling via warp, the ship is invisible to radars(except subspace scan) and immune to weapons until it stops warping.
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Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 14:06
>>683
Now the scales are messed up. There's no way something of that size can have a blast radius of that magnitude. I'd have to research a bit more, but I don't think even supernovas can explode like that.
I'm not even going to comment on the technobabble.
>>687 Maps will be huge and randomly generated(via fractal/procedural generation).
Only fraction of map is visible at once. Fast travel is necessary for exploration.
>>687 Why even have travel between star systems? Gratuitous. Space is already bigger than you'll know what to do with.
Because this star system is not big enough for you and me, boy.
>>689 Its a balance issue(radius of crystal concentrator overload blast).
It should be weapon of last resort against cargo raiders.
It will be useful in base offense if the cargo ship approaches undetected.
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Nature is busy creating absolutely unique individuals, whereas culture has invented a single mold to which all must conform. It is grotesque.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 14:16
JUMP DURATION
Although the preceived duration of a jump is very short, the actual time is much greater. It takes a week to make the maximum range jump for any engine. For example an engine with a maximum range of 10 light years will take a week to jump that far or 3.5 days for a 5 light year jump, and so on. A ship with a maximum hyperspace jump range of 4 light years will take half a week to jump only 2 light years. This has implications for piracy because a pirate ship with a Hyperspace Cloud Analyser and a lighter ship can `overtake' you and lie in wait. Contact in Hyperspace is not possible.
Note on crystal concentrator blast: the energy is released as one pulse which occurs at exactly 1 planck time.
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A free press is not a privilege but an organic necessity in a great society. Without criticism and reliable and intelligent reporting, the government cannot govern. For there is no adequate way in which it can keep itself informed about what the people of the country are thinking and doing and wanting.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 14:21
>>693
Disregarding the magic technology, this actually doesn't sound too bad.
>>693 there is no hyperspace(subspace is used).
Hyperspace Cloud Analyser analogue to subspace scan.
"maximum range jump for any engin", there is no maximum range, there is no "time limits" warp process take seconds.
you simply warp into direction x,y,z until you run out of energy or stop manually.
___________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Uncertainty is the essential, inevitable and all-pervasive companion to your desire to make art. And tolerance for uncertainty is the prerequisite to succeeding
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 14:22
>>690
Hey, stupid. I'm asking why you'd make a map so big that you and the enemy never even have occasion to fight. Let's apply our brains here: merely operating in orbit about one planet would be far more space that we could make good use of. Flying about a solar system would be an embarrassment of empty space. Flying from solar system to solar system = lolwat.
>>691
Well you see I think that's quite correct, but unless this is a game of emigration rather than a game of war, staying in the solar system and killing everybody would be the idea.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 14:24
>>695
Hyperdrives almost never go wrong, but if you are unfortunate enough to suffer a spontaneous mis-jump, you can get into serious trouble. You will emerge somewhere other than your planned destination, which may be out of range for your remaining fuel. It is even possible to mis-jump beyond the maximum range of your drive. If indeed your fuel reserves are too low or the Hyperdrive is broken, your only hope is to call for help and risk pirates responding. It is not entirely understood why mis-jumps happen but an unserviced Hyperdrive is a likely culprit. There are no reliable statistics available on the occurrences of mis-jumps as most ships are never found. A missing ship could just as easily be the result of piracy.
>>697 multiplayer maps will have teams with bases within several systems range for large maps, and closer with smaller maps.(all maps are huge, just the distance-to-enemy is shorter).
>>698 the game technology is way more advanced then this. Warp is completely safe.
Warp disruptors will merely stop the ships traveling near them and will be expensive enough to use only as base perimeter defense.
_______________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
The law is a trade secret and the public process a business owned and operated by the legal profession.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 14:30
>>699
Why do you keep describing this bad setup instead of justifying it?
>>698
And then you land on the Atevi homeworld and have a nice war?
Faulcon De Lacey do not condone this practice as it has an unpredictable effect on the Hyperdrive. It is the equivalent of blindly jamming a screwdriver into the works. We feel that it needs to be mentioned as a warning because foolish pilots do use it as a last resort to escape pirates. If they are being pursued by a larger pirate ship with a Hyperspace Cloud Analyser they force a mis-jump by pressing the mis-jump key while activating the Hyperspace jump. The pirates follow them into hyperspace only to find that their quarry is nowhere to be seen and is in fact somewhere else, frantically trying to work out exactly where they are. The Hyperspace Cloud Analyser cannot distinguish a mis-jump from a normal jump.
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It doesn't matter how you feel inside, you know. It's what shows up on the surface that counts.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 14:42
Here's a quick proof-of-concept I threw together which shows what I think this game should be like:
>>706 The game isn't mean to be artificially hard. Warp is for travel.
Introducing danger and difficulty where none required is syndrome of bad game design.
_____________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
The fact that we are I don't know how many millions of people, yet communication, complete communication, is completely impossible between two of those people, is to me one of the biggest tragic themes in the world.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 14:48
>>707
We have the means, we can fix it, and make a bigger, badder, game.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 14:50
>>707
Right, that's why all good games play like the Manhole.
>>711 You also have no deadlines and can fork the game anytime you like.
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A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 15:50
>>710
Ah, yes. As did Nintendo games and early PC games. Wait....
you begin to realize what such plans "lets enlarge gameplay time by increasing difficulty. Gamers will not pay for such crappy game unless its hard" mean in the end.
Bad design + difficulty= artificial sense of accomplishment+wasted player time+profit
_______________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 16:08
>>714
We have the means, we can fix it, and make a bigger, badder, game.
New weapon: Chronopulse.(superweapon(superweapons are rarely used, they are not unique, just expensive))
When used freezes ships in radius of effect(including the source ship), until timer runs out.
used: to call backups,trap enemies within minefields,freeze base defenses to allow infiltration/warp etc,etc
1. Send in unit freezer.*It should not get killed before it starts the chronopulse.
*1.5 Any enemy units outside of range,can close in and gleefully destroy you powerless ship with laser/phasers/etc.
Chronopulse is not working after its use. Its instant freeze time for all objects_in_range.
2. Send in several-light-year-destroying unit. Sense of scale: Several light-years in game is not much. Maps are Huge.
2.5 which is not going to get through if warp disruptors are there.Chronopulse has no effect on warp disruptor continued operation(even after warp disruptors are destroyed subspace isn't navigable until disruptions wear off: that time is significantly larger then chronopulse duration).
Note on : crystal concentrator: the energy it releases in overload is exactly the energy of all crystals onboard the cargo ship. It can be higher or lower. If you destroy a cargo ship with 20 crystals it wouldn't be felt outside of small radius.
If you destroy a fully loaded 100000 100%-filled-energy crystals cargo ship in overload(it takes quite awhile to collect that much crystals and charge them) this would have the effect of several light years.
Destroying bases with it would be quite expensive and risky endeavor.
>>719 1. Send in unit freezer.*It should not get killed before it starts the chronopulse.
It's either instant, or you can charge it before you get there. *1.5 Any enemy units outside of range,can close in and gleefully destroy you powerless ship with laser/phasers/etc.
Doesn't matter so much, it would be a pilotless craft. Chronopulse is not working after its use.
Then you bring two. 2. Send in several-light-year-destroying unit. Sense of scale: Several light-years in game is not much. Maps are Huge.
It is impossible to conduct war at such a scale. 2.5 which is not going to get through if warp disruptors are there.Chronopulse has no effect on warp disruptor continued operation(even after warp disruptors are destroyed subspace isn't navigable until disruptions wear off: that time is significantly larger then chronopulse duration).
More magic to back up the other magic. They can't have them everywhere, and their range can't be more than an ua. Just send a bomb just outside its range and boom several star systems are wiped out.
New weapon: Thermal drone.Homing AI, used by Motherships.
Attaches to enemy ships and raises its temperature, slowly burning through it causing damage(ineffective when shields are functional). The ships only defense is warp away or shift all energy to shields.
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Doctor, will you tell these fools? I'm not crazy. Make them listen to me before it's too late.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 17:48
>>722 Attaches to enemy ships and raises its temperature, slowly burning through it causing damage(ineffective when shields are functional). The ships only defense is warp away or shift all energy to shields.
Uh you could also shoot it before it attaches to the ship or also shoot it after it has attached. Or just detach the piece of armor it has attached to. Also I can't see how it would be more efficient to emit heat instead of exploding.
Something that "absorbed" shields would be a better idea, but first we would have to establish how shields actually work (according to the laws of physics).
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 17:53
>>714
Winning a poorly designed modern game that only requires you to play for an appropriate period of time is an artificial accomplishment. Less artificial is beating a real game, like Contra, La Mulana, or Mutant Storm. So why are you intent on creating the former, and robbing players of any enjoyment they might have? Because you aren't enough of a gamer to have an informed opinion on games; that's why. Of course, you're not enough of a programmer to write one, so that's hardly surprising.
1. Send in unit freezer.*It should not get killed before it starts the chronopulse.
It's either instant, or you can charge it before you get there.
=It is instant. No charge time, as its one-shot weapon.
*1.5 Any enemy units outside of range,can close in and gleefully destroy you powerless ship with laser/phasers/etc.
Doesn't matter so much, it would be a pilotless craft.
Chronopulse is not working after its use.
Then you bring two.
=Chronopulse works not as freeze_everything_during_chronopulse but as freeze ships_in_range.
Its like you hacked all the ships in radius of chpulse.
2. Send in several-light-year-destroying unit. Sense of scale: Several light-years in game is not much. Maps are Huge.
It is impossible to conduct war at such a scale.
=Its very possible, its called Warp(speed of ships increased to lightspeed*warpfactor).
= Its cheap, and requires compratively little energy unlike superweapons.
2.5 which is not going to get through if warp disruptors are there.Chronopulse has no effect on warp disruptor continued operation(even after warp disruptors are destroyed subspace isn't navigable until disruptions wear off: that time is significantly larger then chronopulse duration).
More magic to back up the other magic. They can't have them everywhere, and their range can't be more than an ua. Just send a bomb just outside its range and boom several star systems are wiped out.
-Subspace scan will reveal those ships trying to warp closer.
-Several seconds and patrols can destroy those intruders as they enter warp disruptor range.
-laying minefields at key points and setting warp disruptors will prevent large scale warp invasions completely(but it won't be cheap)
-Every tactic will be eventually countered. The game will have the Starcraft rock-paper-scissors models with races/ships classes having balance via cost effectiveness of use.
Warp disruptors can be upgraded in range and armor(its should be hard to destroy by default),
Chronopulse can be upgraded with more time.
Crystal concentrator overload will depend on amount of crystals used and their energy content(filled x%percent)
________________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Science is not a game in which arbitrary rules are used to decide what explanations are to be permitted.
>>723 It would be released in swarm which can only be practically harmed by area of effect weapons.
You can shoot single thermal drone, but you will have 100 more sticking on your ship in a second.
Warping clears the ship outer hull attached drones when it enter subspace. Drones cannot warp, or infiltrate the undamaged ship.
______________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
I have become my own version of an optimist. If I can't make it through one door, I'll go through another door - or I'll make a door.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 18:09
>>725
=Chronopulse works not as freeze_everything_during_chronopulse but as freeze ships_in_range. Yeah, that's why you bring two so you can freeze all the new ships coming too. Assuming it doesn't freeze the originating ship... pretty likely though. Well, you could just teleport in a new ship after the first attack.
=Its very possible, its called Warp(speed of ships increased to lightspeed*warpfactor). I don't think so, it's impossible to search a cubic light year, and it's impossible to use RADAR or anything too.
-Subspace scan will reveal those ships trying to warp closer. Yeah, but it would be too late.
-Several seconds and patrols can destroy those intruders as they enter warp disruptor range. Exactly how large is this range?
-laying minefields at key points There is no such thing as a key point in space.
And what's up with all of this? Why are people fighting in space? For what reason? Why can't there just be peace!
>>727 Assuming it doesn't freeze the originating ship. *It originates at source ships and spread as sphere
freeze_objects_in_radius(x){set_chronopulse_timer(ntime);
for(i in ships_found){freeze_ship(ntime);}}
it's impossible to search a cubic light year, and it's impossible to use RADAR or anything too.
Subspace scan, will have range to scan galaxies. basically it returns *map_data_full_locs() like if you had full minimap view in Starcraft, but in form of zoomable grids and colored dots. The last scan is saved and can be searched.
*WIll be some multiplayer latency problems(if map is heavily populated) , but this scan will be not be used often due cost
Exactly how large is this range? Depends on upgrades.
There is no such thing as a key point in space. It will be hard to grasp but game is fully 3d. You can mine a cube-shaped minefield and leave a cargo ship inside as bait. >>728 If you're complaining i'm adding space elves.
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The primitive mentality is a condition of the human mind, and not a stage in its historical development.
___________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
We are all looking for emotions, basically. It's only a question of finding the way to experience them
>>728 warp disruptors can be considered "fences" as they segment subspace in the region of use.
__________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
The basic objectives and principles of war do not change.The final objective in war is the destruction of the enemy's capacity and will to fight, and thereby force him to accept the imposition of the victor's will.
>>732 well if you don't like it you can code your version in Lisp/Cobol/brainfuck/etc
Its not like i'm going to prevent you from copying anything. Information wants to be free.
_________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be attained through understanding.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 18:44
>>730 If you're complaining i'm adding space elves.
You might as well add a space Santa with a workshop orbiting Polaris.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-24 18:51
We need to start assigning people different tasks.
The programming jobs need to be defined. (level editor, engine calls, physics, scripting...)
-We need level designers
-Story writers
-Sprite artists.
-Musicians.
>>737
-We need level designers(procedurally generated)
-Story writerss(free-form RTS, no quests or stories. Either learn to pilot ships or play Wow)
-Sprite artists.(procedurally generated)
-Musicians. (procedurally generated/fractal music)
_________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
You're always a little disappointing in person because you can't be the edited essence of yourself.
>>726 Suggestion noted:
mission where you have to raid a pirate workshop for stolen ship designs and bonus items. Star system named Polaris.
Guarded by "Santa", a pirate battlecruiser(accompanied by smaller pirate ships)
________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Refusal to believe until proof is given is a rational position; denial of all outside of our own limited experience is absurd.
Note; Missions are map specific, there is no need play missions in multiplayer.
_______________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
We hold life to be sacred, but we also know the foundation of life consists in a stream of codes not so different from the successive frames of a watchvid. Why then cannot we cut one code short here, and start another there? Is life so fragile that it can withstand no tampering? Does the sacred brook no improvement?
What's the point in this? What the fuck is the point in making another RTS game. What's the point in making a game like this at all? It's been done a million times before, it's a fuck-ton of effort(have you even started thinking about graphics? sound?), and you get little to nothing out of the whole ordeal except wasted time.
thank god this project will just die once we thread stop
#This is as far as development will ever get
print'FV RTS GAME\nV 0.1\n'
print'Okay, you have 3 military units, what do you do?'
done = 0
while not done:
c = raw_input('[A]ttack or [M]ove\n?').lower()
if c=='a':
print'PEW PEW PEW'
elif c=='m':
print'you travel many days and nights'
if random.randrange(5)==4:
print'AMBUSH OH SHIT'
c = raw_input('[R]un or [G]un!?!?\n?')
if c=='r':
print'you didn\'t get away fast enough'
elif c=='g':
print'you don\'t have a gun'
else:
print'you didn\'t act fast enough'
print'you fucking lose'
done = 1
>>751 Its dependent on skill of a programmer.
Besides the art direction is secondary to gameplay:
there plenty of game with good art but gameplay is so shitty people play only once.
>>755 That doesn't even a have a starfield layer or any 3d.
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Well, as tragic as all this is, it's a small price to pay for countless hours of top-notch entertainment!
>>758 Thats the point: any wheel can be reinvented.
I'm sure you would love to have us believe you know better than an entire industry comprising millions of experts that have spent decades honing their craft and figuring out how best to please consumers. Of course, the `hacker` ideology is a nice way to create a catch 22 that automatically discards observed evidence. Let's be honest with ourselves though. How much has the wheel really changed since ~5000 BC?
>>757 technically, an implementation of this game in text form would be as good as 3d(not >>745 or whatever non-sense you post).
Except some graphical effects like starfield(and even this can be simulated by random dots),
the game would have the same qualities. 3d just looks much better.
Suspension of disbelief is sustained when you see a fully colored 3D ship and not a badly drawn text contour or vectorized silhouette.
>>759
In fact, your saying you can 'reinvent the wheel' chalks up some points for ignorance. The entire meaning of the phrase is that anything well known can be duplicated, but it only serves to waste time when you could use what is already available. Saying you intend to reinvent the wheel, or rather, saying you intend to recreate something that has already been created many times before is, although amusing, rather sad as well.
>>761 No. The point is not to depend on wheels .Not reinventing them because we can.
If the graphics engine doesn't do its job, write another, etc.
___________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
>>763
I think you are completely missing the point. The design, purpose of a wheel has not changed much in seven millennia, the implementation has. I realise IHBT, but think about what you are saying. "The point is not to depend on wheels." Try going a day without utilizing some form of wheel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor
Metaphor (from Latin metaphoria; see the Greek origin below), is a figure of speech and or phrase that one word as being or equal to a second object in some way. This device is known for usage in literature, especially in poetry, where with few words, emotions and associations from one context are associated with objects and entities in a different context. It compares two subjects without using 'like' or 'as'. Compared to simile, the metaphor takes us one step further than the simile. Instead of asking us to picture one thing as being like another, the metaphor asks us to picture one thing as being the other. The term derives from Greek μεταφορά (metaphora), or "transference"[1], from μεταφέρω (metaphero) "to carry over, to transfer"[2] and that from μετά (meta), "between"[3] + φέρω (phero), "to bear, to carry".[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaphore_(programming)
In computer science, a semaphore is a protected variable or abstract data type which constitutes the classic method for restricting access to shared resources such as shared memory in a parallel programming environment. A counting semaphore is a counter for a set of available resources, rather than a locked/unlocked flag of a single resource. It was invented by Edsger Dijkstra[1]. Semaphores are the classic solution to preventing race conditions in the dining philosophers problem, although they do not prevent resource deadlocks.
Contents
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A different conception of society, very different from that which now prevails, is in process of formation.
not only does /prog/ use a script to block out all of FV's posts, but FV uses a script to block out all of /prog/s' posts.
that's just the kind of guy he is
I have changed my mind on some project management decisions:
I'm opening a forum for express purpose of game development, because of much interest in subject of the game.
You can register here(registration is optional,guest posting is enabled) http://etastrum.lefora.com
I don't think I could continue to live after seeing someone genuinely act like that.
I'll have to post some videos of some girls I know who do genuinely act like that.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-25 15:41
>>793
Go right ahead. It not like I'll watch them or anything.
import random
#This is as far as development will ever get
print'FV RTS GAME\nV 0.2\n'
print'Okay. So you have 3 military units, 2 production units, and 700 elemental matrices.\nWhat do you do?'
done = 0
while not done:
c = raw_input('[A]ttack, [M]ove, or [B]uild\n?').lower()
if c=='a':
print'PEW PEW PEW'
elif c=='m':
print'you travel many days and nights'
if random.randrange(5)==4:
print'AMBUSH OH SHIT'
c = raw_input('[R]un or [G]un!?!?\n?')
if c=='r':
print'you didn\'t get away fast enough'
elif c=='g':
print'you don\'t have a gun'
else:
print'you didn\'t act fast enough'
print'you fucking lose'
done = 1
elif c=='b':
print'insufficient elemental matrices. \naggregate elemental matrices.\n'
The project will have multiple languages and toolkits.
There will will be no forced choices. So if you like to program in Lisp and Python its accepted.
Game design will be reviewed by everyone and you can suggest new design features.
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Velox Et Astrum gamedev forum: http://etastrum.phpbb3now.com
When you're wrong, you're wrong. When you're confused, you're confused. You cannot have a conclusive debate when there is confusion in the premises or logic.
Ive never understood why people get angry after watching Boxxy's videos. I mean she's obviously just putting on an act. I don't find it particularly interesting, and I'm surprised that she gets any more of a reaction than a weak yawn. I mean, I've got a daughter who acts like that whenever she's in a goofy mood.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-25 19:43
>>807 I've got a daughter who acts like that whenever she's in a goofy mood.
Then you're surely planning to either fuck your daughter or kill her. Stop lying to yourself, buddy.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-25 20:14
>>807 I've got a daughter who acts like that whenever she's in a goofy mood.
Nothing that can't be solved by a closed fist applied repeatedly and vigorously to the face.
Ive never understood why people get angry after watching Boxxy's videos. I mean she's obviously just putting on an act. I don't find it particularly interesting, and I'm surprised that she gets any more of a reaction than a weak yawn.
Agree 100%
What a goofy, stupid cunt
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-25 20:48
>>808
ಠ_ಠ Uhh, not quite I just ignore her when shes doing it.
>>813
seconded. it's not like i'm going to link this thread on /b/ once it's closed or anything...
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-25 21:16
wasnt this originally about a game?
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-25 21:18
>>813
Thirded. Also, how old is she? I hope she's 17 or younger because anyone viewing this thread is thus essentially downloading child pornography and I can finally get the Feds to shut down /prog/
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-25 21:21
>>815
No, it's been about shitty /b/ memes from the beginning.
>>816 There are no pictures or videos in this thread. Not even any ASSKEY art. Good luck with that.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-25 21:24
>>817
ASCII prawn of a minor? SOUNDS LIKE THOUGHTCRIME TO ME!!
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-25 21:25
>>817,816 /prog/, where the rumor of a female existing = pornography.
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Velox Et Astrum gamedev forum: http://etastrum.phpbb3now.com
We are subjects of law's empire, liegemen to its methods and ideals, bound in spirit while we debate what we must therefore do.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-26 1:52
>>827
Velox can also mean navy. And 'et' can mean 'and' or it could be used to join two words to form a new concept. Therefore Velox et Astrum could mean 'Starnavy' or 'Starfleet'. or I guess speedystar
Maybe we should just call it thermonucleardiarrhea.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-26 2:36
>>829 >>830 >>831
Ok, Latin-fag here. I see whats confusing everyone. Speed and fleet are synonyms, so because of this, Velox et Astrum literally could mean Starfleet. However, it would be the wrong definition of fleet... lol. I guess it doesn't really matter though, because 'Speed and Star' is still kinda cool.
Some linguists make a distinction between slangisms (slang words) and colloquialisms. According to Ghil'ad Zuckermann, "slang refers to informal (and often transient) lexical items used by a specific social group, for instance teenagers, soldiers, prisoners and thieves. Slang is not the same as colloquial (speech), which is informal, relaxed speech used on occasion by any speaker; this might include contractions such as 'you’re,' as well as colloquialisms. A colloquialism is a lexical item used in informal speech; whilst the broadest sense of the term ‘colloquialism’ might include slangism, its narrow sense does not. Slangisms are often used in colloquial speech but not all colloquialisms are slangisms. One method of distinguishing between a slangism and a colloquialism is to ask whether most native speakers know the word (and use it); if they do, it is a colloquialism. However, the problem is that this is not a discrete, quantized system but a continuum. Although the majority of slangisms are ephemeral and often supplanted by new ones, some gain non-slang colloquial status (e.g. English silly – cf. German selig ‘blessed’, Middle High German sælde ‘bliss, luck’ and Zelda, a Jewish female first name) and even formal status (e.g. English mob)."[5]
>>845
I don't get your point. That pages makes a reference to jargon. I think that applies more correctly to professional usage of latin in today's society as opposed to describing such usage as slang.
>>846 Usage of Latin in medicine is like animu fans usage of Japanese.
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Velox Et Astrum gamedev forum: http://etastrum.phpbb3now.com
Ladies and gentlemen, distinguished colleagues, after extensive biological and anatomical testing, I regret to announce that the evidence we have is inconclusive. This thing may or may not be human.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-26 11:48
I think you people are confusing slang with jargon.
And no, a doctor couldn't go back in time to Imperial Rome and communicate (mainly because they don't actually speak Latin, they just use phrases to name things) any more than an Englishman could travel back in time a thousand years and make himself understood.
Also, a dead tongue is one that has no more native speakers, not one that has no more speakers at all.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-26 11:53
>>848
But the Bible was written in English??? 20000 thousand years ago?????
>>848 Could they just use normal standard English and not Latin?
I bet the reaction would be the same if you asked /a/ to use cute instead of kawaii
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Velox Et Astrum gamedev forum: http://etastrum.phpbb3now.com
Stranded in this mill town railroad yard while the whole world was converging elsewhere, we seemed to be nothing but children playing among heroic men.
>>850
If medical professionals used English, it would sound like they were speaking Newspeak. That's doubleplusungood if all you care about is curing your throatswell.
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Velox Et Astrum gamedev forum: http://etastrum.phpbb3now.com
The fact that we are I don't know how many millions of people, yet communication, complete communication, is completely impossible between two of those people, is to me one of the biggest tragic themes in the world.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-26 12:24
>>853
Uh, no. Medical terms aren't confusing because they're Latinish; they're confusing because you're not a doctor.
>>854 Being "not a doctor" isn't an excuse to use cryptic slang.
Isn't the purpose of doctors,lawyers,scientist to be understood by common people or not?
Why would you think people need to invent secretive subcultures of "professionals" who segregate into "doctors" and "non-doctors" ?
________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Velox Et Astrum gamedev forum: http://etastrum.phpbb3now.com
When you look at the whole life of the planet, we - you know, man - has only been around for a few blinks of an eye. So if the infection wipes us all out... that is a return to normality.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-26 12:41
>>847 Usage of Latin in medicine is like animu fans usage of Japanese.
It's called anime, dad.
>>857
Hmmm... I hadn't pegged you for a tinfoil, Fro.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-26 13:20
>>857
I know you don't have sufficient expertise in anything to understand the state of being an expert (witness your abuses of computer science), but doctors are experts who have devoted many years of study to medicine. And you think the reason you don't understand them is because they don't use familiar word roots? What's your next project, some sort of universal character and philosophical language the definition of every word in which will be evident from its construction?
import random
matrices = 700
militaryunits = 3
productionunits = 2
print'Velox et Astrum\nV 0.201\n'
print'Okay. So you have',militaryunits,'military units,',productionunits,'production units, and',matrices,'elemental matrices.\nWhat do you do?'
done = 0
while not done:
c = raw_input('[A]ttack, [M]ove, [Q]uarry, [T]rain, view [S]tatistics, or [B]uild\n?').lower()
if c=='a':
print'PEW PEW PEW'
elif c=='m':
print'you travel many days and nights'
if random.randrange(5)==4:
print'AMBUSH OH SHIT'
c = raw_input('[R]un or [G]un!?!?\n?')
if c=='r':
print'you didn\'t get away fast enough'
elif c=='g':
print'you don\'t have a gun'
else:
print'you didn\'t act fast enough'
print'you fucking lose'
done = 1
elif c=='b':
if matrices != 'sufficient elemental matrices':
print'. . . INSUFFICIENT ELEMENTAL MATRICES'
if random.randrange(2)==0:
print'You ignorantly allocated elemental matrices for building. They\'re now gone.'
matrices = 0
elif c=='q':
rmat = random.randint(1234,5678)
matrices = matrices + rmat
print'you\'ve mined',rmat,'elemental matrices from a KLYGZOFTSY-class maxteroid.'
print'you\'ve got',matrices,'elemental matrices.'
elif c=='t':
print'your hamfisted attempts at training local aliens to serve as mercinaries has FAILED!\n'
elif c=='s':
print'#'*25
print'You have',militaryunits,'miliary units.'
print'You have',productionunits,'production units.'
print'You have',matrices,'matrices.'
print'You don\'t have anywhere to build anything!'
print'#'*25
__________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Velox Et Astrum gamedev forum: http://etastrum.phpbb3now.com
our array warning sensors can help us, for the mind worms infiltrate through every crevice and chew through anything softer than plasma-steel.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-26 13:35
>>868
Nope. But it's not like I'm trying or anything. How about you, bro?
>>867 Rabid elitism
This is what cranks actually believe. Fivs, the fact of the matter is that some people study hard and become experts on a subject. You are an expert on nothing, and assume that your grab bag of mistaken assumptions and misunderstood facts is equivalent to being one. Nope. You may actually be less of an expert than Xah Lee.
#
# Velox et Astrum
# version 0.202
#
# version 0.202 includes:
# - rudimentary save/load capabilities using *.dat file.
# customizable savefile name for simultaneous games.
# - advanced unit training
# - extended asteroidal mining capabilities
# - moving command display to separate 'help' command, in order to facilitate command expansion
# without degrading the user interface
# - the introduction of 'civilian' units
# - reduction of bloat within 'random' calls
# - addition of 'quit' command
#
from random import randint, randrange
matrices = 700
militaryunits = 3
productionunits = 2
civilians = 1000
roid = ['KLYGZOFTSKY', 'AENTORGIAN', 'FENGLIFTOG', 'ORTESTRIAN', 'HAGROSCOR', 'DENQUIG']
print"+"*25+'\n| Velox et Astrum |\n| V 0.202 |\n'+'+'*25
print'You got',str(militaryunits),'military units,',str(productionunits),'production units',str(civilians),'civilains, and',str(matrices),'elemental matrices.'
print'What do you do?'
done = 0
while not done:
c = raw_input('[H]elp is available.\n>>').lower()
if c=='a':
print'PEW PEW PEW'
elif c=='m':
print'you travel many days and nights'
if randrange(5)==4:
print'AMBUSH OH SHIT'
c = raw_input('[R]un or [G]un!?!?\n?')
if c=='r':
print'you didn\'t get away fast enough'
elif c=='g':
print'you don\'t have a gun'
else:
print'you didn\'t act fast enough'
print'you fucking lose'
done = 1
elif c=='b':
if matrices != 'sufficient elemental matrices':
print'. . . INSUFFICIENT ELEMENTAL MATRICES'
if randrange(2)==0:
print'You ignorantly allocated elemental matrices for building. They\'re now gone.'
matrices = 0
elif c=='q':
rmat = randint(1234,5678)
matrices = matrices + rmat
print'you\'ve mined',str(rmat),'elemental matrices from some '+roid[randint(0,len(roid)-1)]+'-class maxteroids.'
print'you\'ve got',str(matrices),'elemental matrices.'
elif c=='t':
if randrange(6)==2:
civilians = civilians - 1
militaryunits = militaryunits+1
print'you have trained 1 extra military unit.'
elif randrange(7)==2:
civilians = civilians - 1
productionunits = productionunits + 1
print'you have trained 1 extra production unit.'
else:
print'your hamfisted attempts at training local aliens to serve you has FAILED!'
if randrange(5)==0:
print'the cretinous beast destroyed many matrices and killed many men'
matrices = 0
if civilians > 0:
civilians = civilians - randint(10,50)
else:
'the beast makes its home in the ruins of your former civilian population. this bothers your troops.'
elif c=='s':
print'#'*25
print'You have',militaryunits,'miliary units.'
print'You have',productionunits,'production units.'
print'You have',civilians,'civilians in your care.'
print'You have',matrices,'matrices.'
print'You don\'t have anywhere to build anything!'
print'#'*25
elif c=='h':
print'#'*34
print"'A' is used to attack\n'M' is used to move\n'Q' is used to mine elemental matrices"
print"'T' is used to train miliary units\n'S' is used to view player statistics\n'B' is used to build structures."
print"\n'Save' is used to save a file.\n'Load' is used to load a saved game."
print"'Quit' is used to quit the game and close the program."
print'#'*34
elif c=='load':
filename = raw_input('name of savefile: ')
savefile = open(filename+'.dat', 'r').read()
matrices,militaryunits,productionunits,civilians = savefile.split("|")
int(matrices)
int(militaryunits)
int(productionunits)
int(civilians)
elif c=='save':
filename = raw_input('filename to save as: ')
savefile = open(filename+'.dat', 'w')
savefile.write(str(matrices)+"|"+str(militaryunits)+"|"+str(productionunits)+"|"+str(civilians))
savefile.close()
elif c=='quit':
print "-"*10+"Goodbye!"+"-"*10
done = 1
A few days ago I had a dream about the 1000 get post on this thread to be mine. I've been waiting and hoping for it to come and its almost finally here! Tomorrow! I bet it will happen tomorrow. I'm gonna go to sleep now, but before I do I'm gonna wish with all my heart that I get it. I wish you all good luck tomorrow, GLORY TO THE GET!!
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-28 2:08
>>917
Not sure if troll, but im gonna assume its a troll. If it isn't id have to shoot myself immoderately.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-28 2:18
>>917
How exactly are you going to get the 1000th post when Shiichan will get it? Generally the fight is up for the 999th post instead.
Game Design
All aspects of game design Subforums: Maps and missions, Multiplayer Maps, Planets and Asteroids, Stars, StarShip design, Ship Classes, Cargo Ships, Fighter Ships, Fregate Ships, Battlecruiser Ships, Motherships, Unique, Non-Weapon Modules, StarBase design, Buildings, Game Weapons, Superweapons, Ingame scripts, Combat mechanics, Warp and travel, Background Story, Game Technology, Game Races, Terrans, Setolians, Mirnaesi, Velori, Semaron, Replays and game saves, Units AI and control, Multiplayer, Multiplayer Chat, Trading, Teams, Alliance system, Names and Locations, Resources
I IHBT'd.
>>921
>There is no emoticon to express what I am feeling.
Use an image macro and upload to http://Imgur.com
>ban this raging fgt again
Banning makes us stronger. (and more productive i have to add, i code more when /prog/ is off the table)
>>928 You have a blind eye for all the arrogance of "Expert Programmers" who post here, but i'm a more convenient target isn't?
_________________________________________________ http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Velox Et Astrum gamedev forum: http://etastrum.phpbb3now.com
The genius of culture is to create an ontological system so compelling that what is inside and outside of a person are viewed as of a piece, no seams and patches noticeable.
The earliest forms of cigarettes have been attested in Central America around the 9th century in the form of reeds and smoking tubes. The Maya, and later the Aztecs, smoked tobacco and various psychoactive drugs in religious rituals and frequently depicted priests and deities smoking on pottery and temple engravings. The cigarette, and the cigar, were the most common method of smoking in the Caribbean, Mexico and Central and South America until recent times.[5]
The South and Central American cigarette used various plant wrappers; when it was brought back to Spain, maize wrappers were introduced, and by the seventeenth century, fine paper. The resulting product was called papelate and is documented Goya's paintings La Cometa, La Merienda en el Manzanares, and El juego de la pelota a pala (18th century).[6]
By 1830, the cigarette had crossed into France, where it received the name cigarette; and in 1845, the French state tobacco monopoly began manufacturing them.[6]
In the George Bizet opera Carmen, which was set in Spain in the 1830s, the title character Carmen was at first a worker in a cigarette factory.
In the English-speaking world, the use of tobacco in cigarette form became increasingly popular during and after the Crimean War, when British soldiers began emulating their Ottoman Turkish and Russian comrades.[6] This was helped by the development of tobaccos that are suitable for cigarette use, and by the development of the Egyptian cigarette export industry.
The widespread smoking of cigarettes in the Western world is largely a 20th Century phenomenon - at the start of the century the per capita annual consumption in the USA was 54 cigarettes (equivalent to less than 0.5% of the population smoking more than 100 cigarettes per year), and consumption there peaked at 4,259 per capita in 1965. At that time about 50% of men and 33% of women smoked (defined as smoking more than 100 cigarettes per year)[7]. By 2000, consumption had fallen to 2,092 per capita, corresponding to about 30% of men and 22% of women smoking more than 100 cigarettes per year, and by 2006 per capita consumption had declined to 1,691[8]; implying that about 21% of the population smoked 100 cigarettes or more per year.
During World War I and World War II, cigarettes were rationed to soldiers. During the second half of the 20th century, the adverse health effects of cigarettes started to become widely known and text-only health warnings became commonplace on cigarette packets. The United States has not yet implemented graphical cigarette warning labels, which are considered a more effective method to communicate to the public the dangers of cigarette smoking.[9] Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, however, have both textual warnings and graphic visual images displaying, among other things, the damaging effects tobacco use has on the human body.
The cigarette has evolved much since its conception; for example, the thin bands that travel transverse to the "axis of smoking" (thus forming circles along the length of the cigarette) are alternate sections of thin and thick paper to facilitate effective burning when being drawn, and retard burning when at rest. Synthetic particulate filters remove some of the tar before it reaches the smoker.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-28 7:29
The process of blending, like the blending of scotch and cognac, gives the end product a consistent taste from batches of tobacco grown in different areas of a country that may change in flavour profile from year to year due to different environmental conditions.[18]
Modern cigarettes produced after the 1950s, although composed mainly of shredded tobacco leaf, use a significant quantity of tobacco processing by-products in the blend. Each cigarette's tobacco blend is made mainly from the leaves of flue-cured brightleaf, burley tobacco, and oriental tobacco. These leaves are selected, processed, and aged prior to blending and filling. The processing of brightleaf and burley tobaccos for tobacco leaf "strips" produces several by-products such as leaf stems, tobacco dust, and tobacco leaf pieces ("small laminate").[18] To improve the economics of producing cigarettes, these by-products are processed separately into forms where they can then be possibly added back into the cigarette blend without an apparent or marked change in the cigarette's quality. The most common tobacco by-products include:
* Blended leaf (BL) sheet: a thin, dry sheet cast from a paste made with tobacco dust collected from tobacco stemming, finely milled burley-leaf stem, and pectin.[19]
* Reconstituted leaf (RL) sheet: a paper-like material made from recycled tobacco fines, tobacco stems and "class tobacco", which consists of tobacco particles less than 30 mesh in size (~0.599 mm) that are collected at any stage of tobacco processing.[20] RL is made by extracting the soluble chemicals in the tobacco by-products, processing the leftover tobacco fibres from the extraction into a paper, and then reapplying the extracted materials in concentrated form onto the paper in a fashion similar to what is done in paper sizing. At this stage ammonium additives are applied to make reconstituted tobacco an effective nicotine delivery system.[1]
* Expanded (ES) or improved stems (IS): ES are rolled, flattened, and shredded leaf stems that are expanded by being soaked in water and rapidly heated. Improved stems follow the same process but are simply steamed after shredding. Both products are then dried. These two products look similar in appearance but are different in taste.[18]
Whole tobacco can also be processed into a product called expanded tobacco. The tobacco is "puffed", or expanded, by saturating it with supercritical carbon dioxide and heating the CO2 saturated tobacco to quickly evaporate the CO2. This quick change of physical state by the CO2 causes the tobacco to expand in a similar fashion as polystyrene foam. This is used to produce light cigarettes ("Lights") by reducing the density of the tobacco and thus maintain the size of a cigarette while reducing the amount of tobacco used in each cigarette.[18]
A recipe-specified combination of brightleaf, burley-leaf and oriental-leaf tobacco will be mixed with humectants such as propylene glycol or glycerol, as well as flavouring products and enhancers such as cocoa, licorice, tobacco extracts, and various sugars, which are known collectively as "casings". The leaf tobacco will then be shredded, along with a specified amount of small laminate, expanded tobacco, BL, RL, ES and IS. A perfume-like flavour/fragrance, called the "topping" or "toppings", which is most often formulated by flavor companies, will then be blended into the tobacco mixture to improve the consistency in flavour and taste of the cigarettes associated with a certain brand name.[18] As well, they replace lost flavours due to the repeated wetting and drying used in processing the tobacco. Finally the tobacco mixture will be filled into cigarettes tubes and packaged.
In recent years, the manufacturers' pursuit of maximum profits has led to the practice of using not just the leaves, but also recycled tobacco offal[1] and the plant stem.[21] The stem is first crushed and cut to resemble the leaf before being merged or blended into the cut leaf.[22]
Before the Second World War many manufacturers gave away collectible cards, one in each packet of cigarettes. This practice was discontinued to save paper during the war and was never generally reintroduced, though for a number of years Natural American Spirit cigarettes included "vignette" cards depicting endangered animals and American historical events; this series was discontinued in 2003. On April 1, 1970 President Richard Nixon signed the Public Health Cigarette Smoking Act into law, banning cigarette advertisements on television in the United States starting on January 2, 1971. However, some tobacco companies attempted to circumvent the ban by marketing new brands of cigarettes as "little cigars"; examples included Tijuana Smalls, which came out almost immediately after the ban took effect, and Backwoods Smokes, which reached the market in the winter of 1973–1974 and whose ads used the slogan, "How can anything that looks so wild taste so mild."
In many parts of the world tobacco advertising and even sponsorship of sporting events has been outlawed. The ban on tobacco advertising and sponsorship in the EU in 2005 has prompted Formula One Management to look for races in areas that allow the tobacco sponsored teams to display their livery. As of 2007, only the Scuderia Ferrari retains tobacco sponsorship, continuing their relationship with Marlboro until 2011.
In some jurisdictions, such as the Canadian provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta, the retail store display of cigarettes is completely prohibited if persons under the legal age of consumption have access to the premises.[26] In Ontario, Canada, Manitoba, Canada, and Quebec, Canada the display of tobacco is prohibited for everyone, regardless of age, as of 2008. This includes non-cigarette products such as cigars and blunt wraps.[27] [28]
Typical pictogram indicating that smoking is permitted
Purchase restrictions
Beginning on April 1, 1998, the sale of cigarettes and other tobacco products to people under 18 has been prohibited by law in all fifty states of the United States. The legal age of purchase has been additionally raised to 19 in Alabama, Alaska, New Jersey, Utah, and Nassau, Suffolk, and Onondaga Counties in New York.[29] The intended effect of this is to prevent upper class high school students from purchasing cigarettes for their younger peers. Legislation was pending as of 2004 in some other states. In Massachusetts[30] and Virginia[citation needed], parents and guardians are allowed to give cigarettes to minors, but sales to minors are prohibited.
Similar laws exist in many other countries. In Canada, most of the provinces require smokers to be 19 years of age to purchase cigarettes (except for Quebec, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta, where the age is 18). However, the minimum age only concerns the purchase of tobacco, not use. Alberta, however, does have a law which prohibits the possession or use of tobacco products by all persons under 18, punishable by a $100 fine. Australia, New Zealand and Pakistan have a nationwide ban on the selling of all tobacco products to people under the age of 18.
Name:
Anonymous2009-07-28 7:35
Since 1 October 2007, it has been illegal for retailers to sell tobacco in all forms to people under the age of 18 in three of the UK's four constituent countries (England, Wales and Scotland) (rising from 16). It is also illegal to sell lighters, rolling papers and all other tobacco-associated items to people under 18. It is not illegal for people under 18 to buy or smoke tobacco, just as it was not previously for people under 16; it is only illegal for the said retailer to sell the item. The age increase from 16 to 18 came into force in Northern Ireland on 1 September 2008. In the Republic of Ireland, bans on the sale of the smaller ten-packs and confectionery that resembles tobacco products came into force on May 31, 2007 in a bid to cut underaged smoking. The UK Department of Health plans to follow suit with the ten-pack ban.
Most countries in the world have a legal smoking age of 18. Five exceptions are Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Portugal, and the Netherlands, where the age is 16. Since January 1, 2007, all cigarette machines in public places in Germany must attempt to verify a customer's age by requiring the insertion of a debit card. Turkey, which has one of the highest percentage of smokers in its population,[31] has a legal age of 18. Another curiosity is Japan, one of the highest tobacco-consuming nations, which requires purchasers to be 20 years of age (suffrage in Japan is 20 years old).[32]. Beginning in July 2008, Japan will enforce this age limit at cigarette vending machines through use of the taspo smart card. In other countries, such as Egypt, it is legal to use and purchase tobacco products regardless of age. Germany raised the purchase age from 16 to 18 on the 1 September 2007.
Some police departments in the United States occasionally send an underaged teenager into a store where cigarettes are sold, and have the teen attempt to purchase cigarettes, with their own or no ID. If the vendor then completes the sale, the store is issued a fine.[33] Similar enforcement practices are regularly performed by Trading Standards Officers in the UK and the Gardaí Siochana, the police force of the Republic of Ireland.[34]
Consumption
Approximately 5.5 trillion cigarettes are produced globally each year and are smoked by over 1.1 billion people or greater than one-sixth of the world population. While smoking rates have leveled off or declined in developed nations, they continue to rise in developing parts of the world. Smoking rates in the United States have dropped by half from 1965 to 2006 falling from 42% to 20.8% of adults.[2] In the developing world, tobacco consumption is rising by 3.4% per year.[3]
Smoking prevalence by gender Percent smoking
Region Men Women
Africa 29 4
United States 35 22
Eastern Mediterranean 35 4
Europe 46 26
Southeast Asia 44 4
Western Pacific 60 8
Source: World Health Organization estimates, 2000
Leading consumers of cigarettes in 1998[35] Country Population
(millions) Cigarettes consumed
(billions) Cigarettes consumed
(per capita)
China 1248 1643 1320
USA 270 451 1670
Japan 126 328 2600
Russia 146 258 1760
Indonesia 200 215 1070
The examples and perspective in this table may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. Please improve this article and discuss the issue on the talk page.
Smoking prevalence in the U.S. (2006)[36] Rank State % Rank State % Rank State % Rank State %
1 KY 28.6 14 SC 22.3 27 KS 20.0 40 AZ 18.1
2 WV 25.7 15 NV 22.2 28 GA 20.0 41 VT 18.0
3 OK 25.1 16 NC 22.1 29 ND 19.6 42 DC 17.9
4 MS 25.1 17 DE 21.7 30 VA 19.3 43 CO 17.9
5 AK 24.2 18 WY 21.6 31 RI 19.3 44 MA 17.8
6 IN 24.1 19 PA 21.5 32 MT 19.0 45 MD 17.8
7 AR 23.7 20 IA 21.5 33 NH 18.7 46 HI 17.5
8 LA 23.4 21 FL 21.0 34 NE 18.6 47 WA 17.1
9 MO 23.3 22 ME 20.9 35 OR 18.5 48 CT 17.0
10 AL 23.3 23 WI 20.8 36 NY 18.3 49 ID 16.8
11 TN 22.6 24 IL 20.5 37 MN 18.3 50 CA 14.9
12 OH 22.5 25 SD 20.4 38 TX 18.1 51 UT 9.8
13 MI 22.4 26 NM 20.2 39 NJ 18.1
Graphics on cigarette packets
Main article: Tobacco packaging warning messages
Some countries require cigarette packs to contain warnings about health. The United States was one of the first. Other countries include Canada, most of Europe, Australia and in Asia (e.g. Hong Kong)
Smoking bans
Many governments impose restrictions on smoking tobacco, especially in public areas. The primary justification has been the negative health effects of secondhand smoke.[37] Laws vary by country and locality. See:
* Smoking bans
* Smoking bans by country
Cigarette butt
See also: Cigarette filter
A discarded cigarette butt, lying on dirty snow.
The common name for the remains of a cigarette after smoking is a "(cigarette) butt". The butt typically comprises about 30% of the cigarette's original length. It consists of a tissue tube which holds a filter and some remains of tobacco mixed with ash. In extreme cases the filter is slightly burned. Cigarette butts are one source of tobacco for minors and low income people. The shape of a butt hinges on the manner of stubbing out. The intensely pressed butt possesses irregular shape at the end and wrinkled tissue. Cigarette butts may be a subject of studies over popularity of brands producing cigarettes.
∧＿∧
∧＿∧ （´<_｀ ） But seriously, when are you going
（ ´_ゝ`） / ⌒i to leave these poor faggots alone?
／ ＼ | |
/ /￣￣￣￣/ |
＿_(__ﾆつ/ F V / .| .|＿＿＿＿
＼/＿＿＿＿/ （u ⊃
The most important way for the stay-at-home dad to become an acceptable practice in life, is to see it communicated worldwide through media and role models. The following section provides examples from film, radio, literature and television, in which the stay-at-home dad is portrayed. These appearances in entertainment also play in to some of the stereotypes associated with the role of stay-at-home dad.
[edit] Movies
Mr. Mom
The Michael Keaton movie Mr. Mom (1983) features one of the more famous portrayals of a stay-at-home dad. Many stay-at-home dads dislike being labeled Mr. Mom largely due to the bumbling nature of the title character, the implication that stay-at-home dads are maternal rather than paternal, and the general emasculating tone of such terminology. Many fathers feel that their contributions are as fathers, equal yet distinct from mothers' contributions.[citation needed]
Daddy Day Care
The 2003 Movie Daddy Day Care starring Eddie Murphy, Jeff Garlin, and Steve Zahn, humorously chronicles the lives of two men who get laid off, cannot find new jobs and are forced to become stay-at-home dads. With no future employment on the horizon, they decide to begin a daycare business, demonstrating their unconventional child care techniques.[18]
Mighty Ducks
A film not known for its stay-at-home dad message carries many undertones that meet the requirements. Gordon Bombay (Emilio Estevez)loses his job and is forced into community service, where he ends up coaching a peewee hockey team. Though not the actual father of any of the children on the team he becomes a father figure to many of the players, most notably the character Charlie Conway (Joshua Jackson). Conway's father is no longer involved in his life and his mother works full time to support them. Bombay becomes his stay-at-home dad. As he is not working (he does not get paid for coaching), he spends his time outside of coaching the team helping Charlie with the daily obstacles that occur in a young boys life. Bombay clearly cares about Charlie and spends the film shaping him into a leader and a good man. This is seen throughout the trilogy of films. Most importantly though Bombay's character displays ways in which you can still be seen as a man in society without being the breadwinner. The clearest example is through coaching and being involved in the child's athletic life. This shows examples of how a father can be the care giver without it meaning that he is home washing dishes and knitting, or whatever other stereotypical thoughts accompany being a stay-at-home dad in today's society. This is briefly touched upon in the Blue-ray commentary of the movie.
[edit] Music
Lonestar
In 2004 country music group Lonestar released a song titled "Mr. Mom" which was a humorous take on the duties of a stay-at-home dad. Initially, the father was excited to live the "life of luxury," taking long naps and watching tv. He soon learns that when he is not caring for the infant by watching repeat Barney episodes and up extremely early for feedings, that he is responsible for rides to and from practices, attending the Boy Scout and PTA meetings, and also cooking dinner. By the end of his first week at home, the dad is in bed, reading classifieds in hopes of getting back to work immediately.[citation needed]
So, what's stopping the mods from effectively banning FV? Can't they just ban his IP, or his ISP's IPs, or all the fucking IPs from fucking Israel? I mean, Israel is tiny, banning it entirely wouldn't make a significative difference anyway (except for ridding us from this faggot).
>>958
Proxies don't go unbanned for a long time at 4chan. Besides, he doesn't even have to resort to proxies if his IP is dynamic. Ban his fucking ISP and i should be enough.