Return Styles: Pseud0ch, Terminal, Valhalla, NES, Geocities, Blue Moon. Entire thread

Strategy Game Collaboration

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 0:46

Experimental RTS/Space sim Collaborative Coding Project.
The goal is to design a game with structure/settings/balance of Starcraft and scale of Eve Online(i.e. huge space battles, space empires,etc).
Though this wouldn't stop anyone from contributing code/feedback/criticism, i'll be coordinating the project.
All code/ideas should be posted in this and subsequent threads which i'll start as needed.
step #1: We will collaboratively create a name for our project.
Each suggestion must explain why this name fits the project and why its better then any other generic name.

Name: > 2009-07-19 3:42

Name: RADIANCE
Reason: The name directly implies a sci-fi setting (i.e. a stars radiance). It also implies power and expansion, the essence of RTS games.

On a side note, I think this project idea is awesome!

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 3:51

>>31 Good name. Seems not copyrighted. Space-related.
Only mention http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiance_%28software%29 is a ray-tracer(which is also Open-source so this wouldn't ever be a copyright problem).



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I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 3:53

Hmm... how about, Void Sanctum. In honor of the project's manager.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 3:54

If there are no other suggestions, Radiance would become the project name.


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Once a man has changed the relationship between himself and his environment, he cannot return to the blissful ignorance he left.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 3:56

>>33
I loled. I think I prefer >>31-chan's.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 3:57

>>33 Void Sanctum seems disconnected from each in both terms: void is generic emptiness, sanctum is specific holy place.
Regardless http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctum_sanctorum is religious term and unsuitable for a game.


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Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 4:11

I'm sure some would like to suggest a better name later as this is not a very fast forum, but we can
continue to step 2+ as of now.
step #2 Choosing a language. A programming language will be the basis of this game and has to be :
1.Capable of 3-D rendering. 2-D and text games are not popular today.
2.Fast enough to multiplayer games. Performance of about 20FPS is minimum.
3.Support for libraries & graphics toolkits. Having a complete game engine is a plus.



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A different conception of society, very different from that which now prevails, is in process of formation.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 4:15

These are the minimum requirements only. Some languages may be less suitable for game design(like JavaScript/Canvas) due performance issues. We'll collaborative decide which language is best for the task.
I'm not biased against LISP or Haskell being the language of choice, provided you supply some arguments for their worth.



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Why do you insist that the human genetic code is "sacred" or "taboo"? It is a chemical process and nothing more. For that matter -we- are chemical processes and nothing more. If you deny yourself a useful tool simply because it reminds you uncomfortably of your mortality, you have uselessly and pointlessly crippled yourself.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 4:29

>>38
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JASS. Jass, it's around your skill level.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 4:33

>>39 The ingame scripting language would be more user-friendly then JASS.
Something based on BASIC or JavaScript. This would be added at step #6+ for maps and in #8 for  individual units scripts(non-hardcoded and scenario-based).



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A free press is not a privilege but an organic necessity in a great society. Without criticism and reliable and intelligent reporting, the government cannot govern. For there is no adequate way in which it can keep itself informed about what the people of the country are thinking and doing and wanting.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 4:36

>>36
Call it Buddha on the Cross

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 4:38

>>40
Seriously make your game a mod of warcraft III.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 4:44

>>41 as previously mentioned religious terms shouldn't be prominent in the game. Its about science fiction settings.
>>42 The game would not be mod or fork of another game. If your game has desirable qualities you should point out these qualities and post suggestions on how to incorporate them into the game. All such suggestions would have to be reworked to be compatible with game engine and general codebase(if they are deemed to be useful/interesting for the game).


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Writing is not a profession but a vocation of unhappiness. I don't think an artist can ever be happy.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 4:46

>>43
Saint Mary and 5 pillars of Trinity Ganesha

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 4:51

Space Raiders

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 4:52

>>44 You should rework these into suitable names like: Pillars of Trilithium Gates
which could incorporated easily into game setting(as e.g. some scenario-only imperial base structure). 



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The great moral question of the twenty-first century is this: if all knowing, all culture, all art, all useful information can be costlessly given to everyone at the same price that it is given to anyone; if everyone can have everything, anywhere, all the time, why is it ever moral to exclude anyone?

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 4:54

>>45 Multiple copyright issues http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Raiders_%28disambiguation%29
Name is unsuitable to the game as it would not center on pirates or space piracy.


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Free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 5:34

Lets discuss which language platform are not suitable in principle for this project.
In my opinion .Net/Java/scripting languages are not sufficient.
 A native code compiler which produces optimized x86 assembly(or any other assembly which would be a bonus if the game would be ported) is essential. 



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The plot thickens.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 6:33

Galactic Anus Haxers!

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 6:40

>>49 Any sexual context/term/innuendo is inappropriate as a title. You can be a founder of an ingame clan with this name if you wish however.


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Bureaucracy destroys initiative. There is little that bureaucrats hate more than innovation, especially innovation that produces better results than the old routines. Improvements always make those at the top of the heap look inept.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 6:52

>>50
ingame clan

IHBT

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 7:26

Jesus Fucks Mary

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 8:11

I'm only seeing about a third of the posts here, can someone fill me in without being completely earnest?

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 8:18

>>53
! wants to make a 3D RTS game that's set in space.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 8:50

>>54
NO THANK YOU

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 8:59

>>55
He actually wants /prog/ to write it or help him write/design it. I bet ANONIX would be complete before he manages to reach his goal, but I won't stand in his way.

I doubt this project could succeed if it were started by a random, more experienced /prog/rider, much less by Mr. Void.

There could be a chance of success if someone experienced starts doing major work on the project, and gets other people to help as he goes, but in this case, it will probably be as effective as his compression algorithms, which is considerably much less coding work* than writing a full-fledged game.

* - Theoretical/formal analysis work not included.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 9:03

>>56
Mrs. Void
I agree though, asking /prog/ to help with anything to do with programming is like talking to a blind man about Monet. It's better for one to go it alone and ask about the odd thing one gets stuck on, instead of `Hey let\'s us all do this'.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 9:07

>>57
When was the nuptials?

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 9:39

So, #1 is mostly settled. Name of the project is Radiance.
#2 choosing a Language/Library platform from which we will code the project.



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While the easiest way in metaphysics is to condemn all metaphysics as nonsense, the easiest way in morals is to elevate the common practice of the community into a moral absolute.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 9:48

Javascript

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 9:57

>>58
Oh you.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 10:02

C#

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 10:13

>>60,62 Both are interpreted languages. We need something that generates native assembly.



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Better than a thousand hollow words

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 10:34

>>63
You masturbate over Sepples so much, stop asking /prog/ to say things until you get the one you want and just come out with it straight away instead of pseudopatronising us.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 10:44

>>64 But 'until you get the one you want' could be any language which fits the criteria.
You just need reasons to justify its use. Simply shouting C#,c#,C# isn't going to convince anyone.



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A different conception of society, very different from that which now prevails, is in process of formation.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 10:48

>>65
Fine. I'll do point 2 so we can let this thread die quicker:

Sepples.
OpenGL for graphics (or OpenGL-based engine, see Wikipedia for a list and pick one yourself).

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 10:50

>>66 Any reason to justify its use?

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Go with your fate, but not beyond. Beyond leads to dark places.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 10:53

>>67 Quit toying with me.

Sepples for its known wide usage in professional games programming. OpenGL because it's 3D and supported on a wide range of hardware. Also, both are platform-independent.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 10:55

Clearly it should be written in D.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 11:00

>>68 wide usage Popularity doesn't mean anything.
OpenGL isn't exclusive to C++ see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL#Bindings
OpenGL  because it's 3D It has to be 3D, otherwise its not qualifies.
supported on a wide range of hardware. with varying degrees of support : my video card support less then half of those new OpenGL functions.
I don't see any valid argument here.

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Knowledge or Power are not Wisdom

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 11:01

>>69 present your arguments and reasons in favor.



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What Djisktra thinks of machines that could think is as relevant today as Algol Programmer's Guides

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 11:09

>>70
Quit being a cunt, remember this is /prog/ helping you achieve your goals. I'm not seeing your posts any more.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 11:16

>>70
Actually I'd say that popularity inside of a massive industry does count for something. You're like a creationist saying that the adoption of evolution by 99.84% of the American Scientific community counts for nothing.

There are a lot of software developers who understand how to code and they choose to use C++ above all else. C++ has been amazingly well documented, has incredible libraries and support just for game development alone. Because other language can use a certain hardware toolkit it doesn't mean it's up to the task of being a competitor to C++ for game development. Fuck, I'm sure someone has made OpenGL support for brainfuck.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 11:18

>>72 You don't present any valid argument.
Example for valid argument:
1.language X has fast learning curve and would be easy for most of /prog/ to learn.
2.language Z has little memory overhead and will not ruin game's performance.
3.language Y has very expressive syntax which can be used to construct game components (example of practical use). 

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One has not only a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 11:21

>>73 Wide usage in the industry is NOT equivalent to wide usage on /prog/.
Forget about industry,enterprise and "BEST PRACTICES" for a moment.


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The genius of culture is to create an ontological system so compelling that what is inside and outside of a person are viewed as of a piece, no seams and patches noticeable.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 11:26

The natural choice is SICP Algorithmic Programming Language or SAPL for short.
 Its fast(proven by science), very easy to learn(proven by MIT), and above all it has all the features of LITHP syntax and none of security risks of sepples.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 11:30

>>76 I suppose you have some valid points. Security risks of C++ are well known and Scheme is geared for beginners.
Contender #1 Scheme, accepted.
Any other suggestions?

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Why do you insist that the human genetic code is "sacred" or "taboo"? It is a chemical process and nothing more. For that matter -we- are chemical processes and nothing more. If you deny yourself a useful tool simply because it reminds you uncomfortably of your mortality, you have uselessly and pointlessly crippled yourself.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 11:46

Scheme seems to have OpenGL support.
http://practical-scheme.net/

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 11:49

>>78 Yes, i noticed this on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL#Bindings
Language choice is however a serious matter and i'm waiting for more suggestions on languages.


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When despotism has established itself for ages in a country, as in France, it is not in the person of the king only that it resides. It has the appearance of being so in show, and in nominal authority; but it is not so in practice and in fact. It has its standard everywhere. Every office and department has its despotism, founded upon custom and usage. Every place has its Bastille, and every Bastille its despot. The original hereditary despotism resident in the person of the king, divides and sub-divides itself into a thousand shapes and forms, till at last the whole of it is acted by deputation. This was the case in France; and against this species of despotism, proceeding on through an endless labyrinth of office till the source of it is scarcely perceptible, there is no mode of redress. It strengthens itself by assuming the appearance of duty, and tyrannises under the pretence of obeying.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 12:27

I'd suggest Java or C# but seeing as the majority here adopted the hate for languages that don't ask you to reinvent the wheel by providing time-proven API's I'm not sure that's something /prog/ would appreciate me doing.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 12:38

>>80 Thats the point: any wheel can be reinvented. Its ``experimental'(aka hacking) coding project. Not ``Enterprise' "time-proven" "industry-standard" "widely-used" project which leverages synergies and skillesets and other bullshit.

Well, as for current arguments for any language. it seems /prog/ doesn't have anything better to offer then Scheme.
next : Choosing a compiler and accompanying graphics library/engine.


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When you look at the whole life of the planet, we - you know, man - has only been around for a few blinks of an eye. So if the infection wipes us all out... that is a return to normality.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 12:42

Notes: Compiler must be freely distributable. No commercial software.



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These tests will have no effect on your grades. They merely determine your future social status and financial success...

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 12:43

>>81

ah sorry, I thought you actually wanted a project that wont die of inactivity 1/10th way through

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 12:47

>>83
Dude, this is ! we're talking about here. ! can be quite persistant.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 12:52

Guys, if we waste anymore time on 'strategy game collaberation', we'll be bankrupt by the end of the month!

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 12:54

>>85

no worries boss, i was a shoplifter/rapist before starting programming

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 13:06

>>84

hey are you that japanese guy (l?) that was making a bank with php a while back?

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 13:31

>>87
I am not that person. I use ! to represent a character that will not be mentioned. Another name for this character is "/prog/'s greatest contributor ever".

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 14:13

You guys are debating the language choice?

Just go with C like every other project or enjoy being the only one able to read the code.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 14:24

Stop seeing his posts!

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 14:44

>>89 Not quite. The choice is which Scheme compiler to use.
No valid arguments for any other languages were presented in this thread.

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The genius of culture is to create an ontological system so compelling that what is inside and outside of a person are viewed as of a piece, no seams and patches noticeable.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 15:03

Will you be licencing this game under the creative commons attribution licence 2.0 ?

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 15:05

>>92 Its can be licensed with whatever license you pick. The code will be posted on /prog/.



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Necessity is the step-mother of invention.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 15:36

>>91
Valid arguments...? Do you really know that little about programming languages to not be able to make a rational judgement as to which (from a choice presented to you by /prog/) to use? Are you actually seriously basing your choices on who presents the ``most valid'' argument?

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 15:44

>>94 Who presents most convincing arguments to his languages/compilers/code/ideas worth decides. Simple and logical.



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There are periods in the life of human society when revolution becomes an imperative necessity, when it proclaims itself as inevitable.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 16:20

>>94 Here is summary:
>>60 No arguments.
>>62 No arguments.
>>66 No arguments.
>>68 C++ "wide usage" OpenGL "because its 3D" "wide range of hardware" "platform-independent"
"wide usage" is "its good because its popular" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
"because its 3D" A graphics library is required to be 3d (game is 3d). Its not a feature or argument
"wide range of hardware" As well as any OpenGL wrapper library. Who would use libraries without hardware support?
 "platform-independent" Many languages are, though this isn't not critical as 90% of intended audience uses Windows.
>>69 No arguments.
>>73 "a lot of software developers " -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
"C++ has been amazingly well documented" I'd won't touch undocumented languages. Its not really a "feature".
"incredible libraries" subjective. C++ require specific compilers and settings to use well, and arcane build process.
"support" this isn't tech support issue. Documentation is what we need.
>>76 "natural choice" subjective.
"fast" partially. If compiled via C to asm.
"very easy to learn" valid argument: used in education of non-programmers.-> Short learning curve
"all the features of LITHP" debatable, though partilyl correct since Scheme is Lisp dialect.
"none of security risks of sepples" valid argument: C++ code is prone to memory leaks, buffer overruns and other exploits.
>>78 "OpenGL support" same as >>68. No valid arguments in favor of OpenGL.
>>80 "time-proven API'" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition
>>89 "enjoy being the only one able to read the code. "  If Scheme has short learning curve /prog/ would be capable of reading the code and thus negating this. otherwise post implies  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition



 

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On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit. And you then go for this limit and you touch this limit, and you think, 'Okay, this is the limit.' As soon as you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 16:34

Stop seeing his posts you retards.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 16:51

>>96
You said you wanted ``experimental/hacking'' language.  Scheme isn't being experimental, it's beating a dead horse.  Scheme has existed nearly as long as C, and is widely known, but nothing much ever came of it.  Let it rest in peace.

You also rejected C♯ and Java for speed reasons, because they don't compile to native code.  Of course, Scheme doesn't compile to native code either, and is in fact slow as fuck.

And of course ``easy to learn'' has nothing to do with usefulness over a long-term project, but then Scheme is really no easier than any other scripting language.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 16:55

There really are no other options besides C and C++ dude.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 17:05

Python combines remarkable power with very clear syntax. It has a lot libraries. Python supports multiple programming paradigms.

/thread

Name: !3LrT5NRVks 2009-07-19 17:05

Fuck You frozen void.  You are nothing but a wanker.
Get a fucking hobby.  Also, serious ban request.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 17:07

>>100
Python ... power
0/360

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 17:53

>>102
Not a troll, this is just what pythons programmers really believe.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 17:57

>>103
I assumed that being a Python programmer was itself an act of trolling.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 18:19

>>104
No, but not saging this thread is now a slappable offence.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 18:30

>>105
*takes off glove*
*slaps*
I CHALLENGE YOU TO A DUEL

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 20:38

>>104
it is.
nobody seriously uses Python, you would have to be completely fucking insane to do so.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 21:16

>>107
Oh wow. I'd better let Google know that they're completely fucking insane for using Python in their system. I'll quote anonymous of /prog/ for this marvellous insight.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 21:19

>>108
YHBT.
Also, please leave, it's obvious that you're new here if you fall for something so obvious.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 21:30

* >>110 slaps >>105 around a bit with a large trout

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 21:39

>>109
Cool story bro

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-19 23:15

I'm convinced FV didn't have any other goal than trolling when s/he created this thread.
Still, I feel like answering that last post of his/her.

The main two characteristics of games are these: they are a lot of code, and their results have to be visible in real time or not at all, which means they have to be reasonably efficient.
Sure, you can go and write it in Scheme or whatever else you want, and it will probably be okay, at least for a while. Just keep in mind that if any slowdowns caused by the code exist, they will only appear once the codebase becomes large enough. At that point you'll very likely be well beyond the point of no return and have only two choices: optimize or scrap. If you can't optimize or you've optimized as much as possible and it's still not enough then that's it. The time you spent on the code is a total loss and you have to start over in a different language.
Professional game developers don't write in C and C++ because it's cool or anything like that. They do it because both languages were designed with efficiency in mind, which means it's impossible, or at least very hard, to fuck up so bad that the entire project has to be scrapped.

Ease of learning is not a valid argument. Only the project participants and the compiler need to know the language.
In any case, all of /prog/ knows how to read C.

Security is not the main concern in game development. A game with a few memory errors that runs smoothly is preferable to an airtight game that will run smoothly in ten years.
There are tools to find both buffer overflows and memory leaks in C/++ code, so that's not even a problem.

There are two options (that I know of, anyway) to write 3D applications: OpenGL and Direct3D. There doesn't appear to be any difference in neither performance nor hardware support, so the only real difference is OS support. OpenGL runs on practically anything and Direct3D runs only on MS platforms and sort of runs on Wine. A game that runs on anything is technically superior to a similar game that only runs on the platform X, regardless of the market share of said platform.

This is meant as advice for writing an actual game that will be intended to be played, and not what was presented on >>5, which is just a troll.
If the project is intended to be merely masturbatory, then none of the above applies. The "game" can be written in anything, as much time as possible should be spent reinventing wheels, and the code will try to use the most complicated approach to solve any problem, rather than the most efficient or simple.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 0:25

>>112
At that point you'll very likely be well beyond the point of no return and have only two choices: optimize or scrap.
I'm not a filthy Schemer, but it seems to be that one of the benefits of writing in Scheme would be that optimizing can be done more quickly.

In any case, all of /prog/ knows how to read C.
All of /prog/ knows how to reach Scheme too.

A game with a few memory errors that runs smoothly is preferable to an airtight game that will run smoothly in ten years.
Uh, no. Running without crashes is pretty important.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 0:49

>>113
>I'm not a filthy Schemer, but it seems to be that one of the benefits of writing in Scheme would be that optimizing can be done more quickly.
I can't speak for Scheme, nor was I talking about any one language in particular.

>Uh, no. Running without crashes is pretty important.
But not more important than efficiency. If you can't run the thing at all, whether it crashes or not is irrelevant.
A buffer overflow only makes a program more likely to crash, and a memory leak doesn't affect crash probability.
Since games don't need to be written to run for a very long time (e.g. a single 12 hour session can be considered very long), memory leaks are not a considerable worry. And, like I said, there are tools to catch buffer overflows.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 0:50

>>114
You can't catch things that don't happen on your test system. And then you push a game that just crashes now and then on some poor sucker. Don't do it.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 0:52

>>114
Also, learn to quote FFS. This isn't rocket science.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 1:24

>>115
Valgrind and memory debuggers in general.

>>116
I have better things to do. Learning rocket science could be one of them.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 1:38

>>117
I have better things to do. Learning rocket science could be one of them.
No, you clueless anus, you don't have better things to do. Learning how to quote takes a few seconds, don't give me this ``don't have time'' bullshit. You won't even notice the time spent.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 1:39

>>117
Valgrind and memory debuggers in general don't help you with bugs they haven't seen.
There you go.

I have better things to do. Learning rocket science could be one of them.
Could be, but isn't. Someone who can't manage to quote sure isn't going to get a rocket off the ground.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 1:41

>>118
>Learning how to quote takes a few seconds
A few seconds I will never get back. The classic greater-than style is just as good and I don't need to learn anything new. Fuck your quotes.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 1:43

>>120
No, fuck you. Ten seconds is not a noteworthy quantum of time when it comes to rocket science, and you wasted about as much by writing your post, you clueless anus.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 1:44

>>119
Can you provide an example? Valgrind certainly does detect buffer overflows, memory leaks, race conditions, and a few other things I can't remember at the moment.

And you're confusing "can't" with "won't".

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-20 2:06

>>98 Scheme compiles to native code:
Some compilers don't, some do. Scheme compilers which produce bytecode or interpret scripts are disqualified.
>>100 Python is interpreted.
>>112 "which means it's impossible, or at least very hard, to fuck up so bad that the entire project has to be scrapped."
this is dependent on developers. /prog/ could do it easily. C/C++ has plenty of methods to shoot yourself in the foot.
>>113 I suppose you have some insight here. C/C++ is notoriously difficult and time consuming to debug(especially with amateur programmers). Scheme wins here.
>>114 "Since games don't need to be written to run for a very long time " memory leaks don't need such long time to cripple the game, they could be exponential.


________________________________
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The opportunity to prove yourself a hero is long gone.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 2:09

I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS THREAD

IS HE FOR REAL

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 2:20

>>123
I'm too unskilled to use a language that can actually do the job, so I'll limit my contributorsself to one that I can pretend to be making progress with for a few weeks/months until I admit this to myself and give up.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 2:20

This is just insanity. Don't you ever wonder why there are so few open source games out there? It's because they cost *millions of dollars* to make. A publisher pays a team of developers to work 50 hours a week for two years to crank out a game. You're talking dozens of man-years of work. And this is often starting by licensing a $500k engine.

But for some reason, guys like you seem to think that 90% of this time is spent 'designing' and 'polishing', the former of which you think will happen magically during development, and the latter of which you think doesn't need to be done because 'it's open source'.

Do you plan to have a job while this project is going on? How many hours a week can you honestly invest in this on an ongoing basis?

It is possible to make an open source game, but you can't be so crazy ambitious. You want to remake Starcraft? Are you daft? Blizzard is remaking Starcraft right now; they've spent roughly 30*5*~50000 = 7.5 million so far and there's no end in sight. Try something MUCH, MUCH simpler, and work your way up.

If you are actually serious about a SIMPLE open source game, having worked as a game developer for 1.5 years and failed at countless open source game projects myself, I can tell you that the most important thing to worry about right now is getting content. You need artists. You need free, freelance art right now. You can't even have a playable prototype without it, and you can't keep anybody interested in the project without it. For every artist you find you can get dozens of programmers, so don't even bother recruiting a development team yet. Just get content. Unfortunately no artist is stupid enough to work for free, so this project has failed before it's begun.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 2:28

>>122
It doesn't detect them until they happen. Why is this hard to grasp?

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-20 2:30

>>126 Any commercial software is disqualified from use in this project.
I'm not paying anyone. This project is completely volunteer and everyone can copy the code for his own projects.
Art: at early stages we'll employ low polygonal models (demo,pre-alpha) later we will adoptsteal other games  media content(with the provision that anyone who does this already owns the game:such content would not be posted on /prog/).


_________________________________________
http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
The substructure of the universe regresses infinitely towards smaller and smaller components. Behind atoms we find electrons, and behind electrons, quarks. Each layer unraveled reveals new secrets, but also new mysteries.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 2:32

>>123
There is so much wrong here... why did I get into this thread?

Python is interpreted.
Who cares whether it's interpreted? You really don't need cutting edge graphics; pure python can easily drive something with the graphics of a Playstation game on modern hardware. It's a space game, so you don't need much more than that.

You'd have to be insane not to write the whole thing in a high-level language; you'd be bloating your development time by orders of magnitude, just for some fancy graphics. Also, check out Google's "unladen swallow"; Python will hopefully soon be running at speeds comparable to Java.

Python easily mixes with C, so why not just start by writing it in python, and replacing the small critical bits with C when you want some extra performance?


Some compilers don't, some do. Scheme compilers which produce bytecode or interpret scripts are disqualified.
Many (most?) Scheme compilers compile directly to C. You can do whatever you want with it at that point.

You don't even seem to understand what interpreted means though. For instance GCJ can compile Java code directly to native bytecode. Does this somehow fit your criteria? Because all its really doing is rolling up the 'interpreter' code directly into your app. Almost all languages do this to some degree, including - wait for it - C++. Do you think that stack unwinding happens magically?


C/C++ is notoriously difficult and time consuming to debug(especially with amateur programmers). Scheme wins here.

WTF? You honestly think you will have an easier time debugging Scheme? You think there are better tools for debugging SCHEME than C?

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-20 2:35

>>123
When I say "fuck up" I don't mean in design. I mean in efficiency. You have to really try to write a game in C/++ that is so horridly slow overall that has to be scrapped completely.
The worst case scenario is that one or two modules are using a less-than-ideal algorithm (e.g. pathfinding) and need to be redesigned.

Any memory leak sizable enough to cripple a program in a short period can be measured by a system monitor and tracked down by seeing at which point the memory should be freed but isn't.

As an example, a game that leaks memory at around 300-600 bytes per second (a little over 1-2 MiB per hour) but has a memory footprint of 100 MiB is perfectly acceptable.

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