Strategy Game Collaboration

Experimental RTS/Space sim Collaborative Coding Project.
The goal is to design a game with structure/settings/balance of Starcraft and scale of Eve Online(i.e. huge space battles, space empires,etc).
Though this wouldn't stop anyone from contributing code/feedback/criticism, i'll be coordinating the project.
All code/ideas should be posted in this and subsequent threads which i'll start as needed.
step #1: We will collaboratively create a name for our project.
Each suggestion must explain why this name fits the project and why its better then any other generic name.

>>120
No, fuck you. Ten seconds is not a noteworthy quantum of time when it comes to rocket science, and you wasted about as much by writing your post, you clueless anus.

>>119
Can you provide an example? Valgrind certainly does detect buffer overflows, memory leaks, race conditions, and a few other things I can't remember at the moment.

And you're confusing "can't" with "won't".

>>98 Scheme compiles to native code:
Some compilers don't, some do. Scheme compilers which produce bytecode or interpret scripts are disqualified.
>>100 Python is interpreted.
>>112 "which means it's impossible, or at least very hard, to fuck up so bad that the entire project has to be scrapped."
this is dependent on developers. /prog/ could do it easily. C/C++ has plenty of methods to shoot yourself in the foot.
>>113 I suppose you have some insight here. C/C++ is notoriously difficult and time consuming to debug(especially with amateur programmers). Scheme wins here.
>>114 "Since games don't need to be written to run for a very long time " memory leaks don't need such long time to cripple the game, they could be exponential.


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The opportunity to prove yourself a hero is long gone.

I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS THREAD

IS HE FOR REAL

>>123
I'm too unskilled to use a language that can actually do the job, so I'll limit my contributorsself to one that I can pretend to be making progress with for a few weeks/months until I admit this to myself and give up.

This is just insanity. Don't you ever wonder why there are so few open source games out there? It's because they cost *millions of dollars* to make. A publisher pays a team of developers to work 50 hours a week for two years to crank out a game. You're talking dozens of man-years of work. And this is often starting by licensing a $500k engine.

But for some reason, guys like you seem to think that 90% of this time is spent 'designing' and 'polishing', the former of which you think will happen magically during development, and the latter of which you think doesn't need to be done because 'it's open source'.

Do you plan to have a job while this project is going on? How many hours a week can you honestly invest in this on an ongoing basis?

It is possible to make an open source game, but you can't be so crazy ambitious. You want to remake Starcraft? Are you daft? Blizzard is remaking Starcraft right now; they've spent roughly 30*5*~50000 = 7.5 million so far and there's no end in sight. Try something MUCH, MUCH simpler, and work your way up.

If you are actually serious about a SIMPLE open source game, having worked as a game developer for 1.5 years and failed at countless open source game projects myself, I can tell you that the most important thing to worry about right now is getting content. You need artists. You need free, freelance art right now. You can't even have a playable prototype without it, and you can't keep anybody interested in the project without it. For every artist you find you can get dozens of programmers, so don't even bother recruiting a development team yet. Just get content. Unfortunately no artist is stupid enough to work for free, so this project has failed before it's begun.

>>122
It doesn't detect them until they happen. Why is this hard to grasp?

>>126 Any commercial software is disqualified from use in this project.
I'm not paying anyone. This project is completely volunteer and everyone can copy the code for his own projects.
Art: at early stages we'll employ low polygonal models (demo,pre-alpha) later we will adoptsteal other games  media content(with the provision that anyone who does this already owns the game:such content would not be posted on /prog/).


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The substructure of the universe regresses infinitely towards smaller and smaller components. Behind atoms we find electrons, and behind electrons, quarks. Each layer unraveled reveals new secrets, but also new mysteries.

>>123
There is so much wrong here... why did I get into this thread?

Python is interpreted.
Who cares whether it's interpreted? You really don't need cutting edge graphics; pure python can easily drive something with the graphics of a Playstation game on modern hardware. It's a space game, so you don't need much more than that.

You'd have to be insane not to write the whole thing in a high-level language; you'd be bloating your development time by orders of magnitude, just for some fancy graphics. Also, check out Google's "unladen swallow"; Python will hopefully soon be running at speeds comparable to Java.

Python easily mixes with C, so why not just start by writing it in python, and replacing the small critical bits with C when you want some extra performance?


Some compilers don't, some do. Scheme compilers which produce bytecode or interpret scripts are disqualified.
Many (most?) Scheme compilers compile directly to C. You can do whatever you want with it at that point.

You don't even seem to understand what interpreted means though. For instance GCJ can compile Java code directly to native bytecode. Does this somehow fit your criteria? Because all its really doing is rolling up the 'interpreter' code directly into your app. Almost all languages do this to some degree, including - wait for it - C++. Do you think that stack unwinding happens magically?


C/C++ is notoriously difficult and time consuming to debug(especially with amateur programmers). Scheme wins here.

WTF? You honestly think you will have an easier time debugging Scheme? You think there are better tools for debugging SCHEME than C?

>>123
When I say "fuck up" I don't mean in design. I mean in efficiency. You have to really try to write a game in C/++ that is so horridly slow overall that has to be scrapped completely.
The worst case scenario is that one or two modules are using a less-than-ideal algorithm (e.g. pathfinding) and need to be redesigned.

Any memory leak sizable enough to cripple a program in a short period can be measured by a system monitor and tracked down by seeing at which point the memory should be freed but isn't.

As an example, a game that leaks memory at around 300-600 bytes per second (a little over 1-2 MiB per hour) but has a memory footprint of 100 MiB is perfectly acceptable.

>>126
This anon speaks the truth, although there are some artists willing to spend time in OSS development.

A more reasonable objective would be writing an RTS engine, I think.

>>127
And when they happen, you see where they happen and you fix them. Why is this so hard to grasp? Do you test software by staring at the code or do you actually run it?

This is getting too big, I think we need to start a new Radiance thread. The first post should outline out progress so far.

>>129 "Who cares whether it's interpreted?" Anyone who plays a slow interpreted game which requires installation of Python runtime plus all the programmers who dislike Python indentation style and would refuse to code in it.
Python is disqualified on all counts.

"You'd have to be insane not to write the whole thing in a high-level language" It will be written in language determined to be most for for the task. Anything which doesn't produce x86 assembly .EXE files is not an option.

"Python easily mixes with C" Many languages do. This argument doesn't count.
" GCJ can compile Java code directly to native bytecode." native bytecode.

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When the rich wage war, it is the poor who die

>>130 A game which crashes isn't viable. C/C++ programs can be debugged for hours and crashes would happen still.
>>131 We're writing the engine first. The game mechanics are written later and the engine in modified in the process to expand features/capabilities.
>>132 Its not yet 1000 replies. new Radiance thread would be started after current one is closed.


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Once a man has changed the relationship between himself and his environment, he cannot return to the blissful ignorance he left.

>>126
This shit has been all over reddit -
AI War: How one guy created a sophisticated RTS game with a formidable AI in only seven months
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/92gxc/ai_war_how_one_guy_created_a_sophisticated_rts/

We should write this in java + eclipse and then for speed once we have it working, copy paste the code into DEVC++ and convert it to C.

>>131
And when they happen, you see where they happen and you fix them. Why is this so hard to grasp? Do you test software by staring at the code or do you actually run it?
No, you nut. They happen to your poor customers who trusted you not to throw a wrench in your own development process. And maybe you issue a patch after a couple months. Maybe you don't.

If you want to promote C/C++ as game design language you have to prepare valid arguments(how language X is fit for game development more then Y) and not parrot "time-proven" "industry-standard" "wide-usage" claims which all reduce to simple fallacies.



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A different conception of society, very different from that which now prevails, is in process of formation.

>>134
You do know that memory leaks only crash a program if they become serious enough, right? For example, allocation in 32-bit Windows XP fails when the program has allocated 2 GiB. Following my previous example, a program with a 100 MiB memory footprint leaking 600 bytes per second would take 20 days and 16 hours to crash. The leaked memory would be more likely to remain in virtual memory so this would be true even for a system with less than 2 GiB of RAM.

>>137
Okay, let's go over this again.
1. You suspect your program has memory leaks.
2. You run your program through Valgrind to find these memory leaks.
3. If your program is clean go to step 7, otherwise go to step 4.
4. See Valgrind's report to find where the leaks are.
5. Fix the leaks.
6. Go to step 2.
7. Done!

Your post makes me suspect you don't even test software. I pity your users.

>>136 Language is chosen before the project begins coding. Your example is hiding inherent incompatibility of languages which would require line-by-line porting(which would result in the game rewritten anyway).
>>139 "this program will not leak more then 600bytes" is wishful thinking. Stop living in fantasies.
Crashes can happens due poor design which memory leaks is one symptom of.
C/C++ is not geared towards beginners.
I don't see anything which would be convincing argument to start developing the game in C/C++.






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In the end, advertising rests upon the fact that consumers are a fickle and …superstitious mob, incapable of any real judgment as to what it wants or how it is to …get what it thinks it likes.

>>140
Get real.
1. You know your program has memory leaks, since it's written in C.
2. Valgrind.
3. Since you haven't encountered any problems, you figure it's good enough.
4. You ship.
5. Some poor sap who trusted you runs a code path you didn't hit while Valgrinding, and it all goes to shit on him.

It's like you think bugs queue up on their own to be discovered. PROGTIP: no.

I want to explain two common misconceptions:
1.the game would not be created by professional developers. Its would be created by /prog/ volunteers collaborating over extended periods of time.
2.the game is not about one persons vision. I merely coordinate the project. Everything suggested is reviewed and critiqued. If everyone agrees, its incorporated into the project. Otherwise its discussed to reach agreement between all participators.

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Knowledge or Power are not Wisdom

Currently we agree on:
#1 Name: Radiance
#2 Language: No consensus reached yet.



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How do ideas come? What a question! If they come of their own accord, they are apt to arrive at the most unexpected time and place. For the most part the place is out of doors, for up in this northern wilderness when nature puts on a show it is an inspiring one. There seem to be magic days once in a while, with some rare quality of light that hold a body spellbound: In sub-zero weather there will be a burst of unbelievable color when the mountain turns a deep purple, a thing it refuses to do in summer. Then comes the hard part: how to plan a picture so as to give to others what has happened to you. To render in paint an experience, to suggest the sense of light and color, air and space, there is no such thing as sitting down outside and trying to make a “portrait” of it. It lasts for only a minute, for one thing, and it isn’t an inspiration that can be copied on the spot...

>>143
2.the game is not about one persons vision.
Then it's fucked. DBC = DNW.

>>145 I can assure you the game wouldn't going anywhere without my supervision. I just don't believe in micromanagement.
For example, if 90% of /prog/ wants naked amazons as playable spacefaring race they would be in the game.
If 90% of /prog/ wants to develop the game in C/Java/C++/Haskell it would be in it, i wouldn't stop it.
If 90% of /prog/ doesn't agree with some game design choice it will be changed to choice which has consensus inside /prog/.

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Christmas is cancelled.

Why choosing a language is important?
1.It has to be approachable/easy by generic /prog/ user standards (short learning curve).
2.It has to be common language(consensus language).
3.It has to answer typical game needs(performance) and need no runtimes(standalone game).


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You're always a little disappointing in person because you can't be the edited essence of yourself.

>>146
Christmas is cancelled.

;_;

>>147 Note on runtimes:
Runtimes require every player to install them. They are also slower then compiled languages.
e.g. Python has Python interpreter. Java has JRE. C# requires .Net. JavaScript requires browser(often only specific browsers).



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More laws can't make us safe from the tragedies that are the inevitable result of freedom, and of living around other people. Life is real, life is uncertain, life is inevitably unsafe. Measures to make it safe at all costs come with dangers of their own.

I want my Javascript. Even with its interpreted implementations.

>>150 JavaScript requires a runtime, and isn't yet a language most of posters agree on.


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Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.

I wish the 4chan extension worked on textboard so I could hide this

WHY DO YOU PEOPLE STILL SEE HIS POSTS?

s/textboard/textboards/

This should like this for anyone reading the thread.
1. /prog/ visitor views thread.
2. /prog/ visitor downloads compiler.
3./prog/ visitor  installs it without any difficulty.
4./prog/ visitor start coding a chunk of code from thread.
6. It compiles to executable file without any problems and source is modified further.
7. Modified source is posted on /prog/ and reviewed. The process repeats itself.

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When you're wrong, you're wrong. When you're confused, you're confused. You cannot have a conclusive debate when there is confusion in the premises or logic.

I propose to rename the project to "Frozen Void", to honour the brilliant mind and driving power behind it. It's a space sim, and space is mostly empty (=void) and usually cold (=frozen), so the name matches perfectly.

>>139
It's not wishful thinking. It's an example to show that memory leaks are highly unlikely to crash a program. Like I said before, a considerable memory leak can be detected and fixed faster than a small memory leak. A small memory leak can be safely ignored.

>>142
If your testing is flawed then you'll have bugs no matter what language you use or how many tools you test your code with.

>>149
>They are also slower then compiled languages.
You obviously don't know what a runtime is. What makes you even think you're in any position of deciding what a valid argument is for choosing one language or library over another? I'm also certain you've never written a single line of neither Scheme nor C.
What's so wrong about runtimes, anyway? An automated installer can take care of installing any necessary libraries. You'll have to install *some* library, anyway, so I don't see what so wrong about it.

>>154
this should look like this for the player:
1.Player download executable from rapidshare/megaupload/sourceforge for his platform.
2.It plays without any additional software.


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Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be attained through understanding.

>>155
IAWTC

inb4 samefag

>>156 ". A small memory leak can be safely ignored." "if your testing is flawed" 
"What's so wrong about runtimes, anyway?" 3/10.




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We hold life to be sacred, but we also know the foundation of life consists in a stream of codes not so different from the successive frames of a watchvid. Why then cannot we cut one code short here, and start another there? Is life so fragile that it can withstand no tampering? Does the sacred brook no improvement?

>>155 name shouldn't reference living or dead people.

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There are two kinds of scientific progress: the methodical experimentation and categorization which gradually extend the boundaries of knowledge, and the revolutionary leap of genius which redefines and transcends those boundaries. Acknowledging our debt to the former, we yearn, nonetheless, for the latter.