Return Styles: Pseud0ch, Terminal, Valhalla, NES, Geocities, Blue Moon. Entire thread

Strategy Game Collaboration

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 0:46

Experimental RTS/Space sim Collaborative Coding Project.
The goal is to design a game with structure/settings/balance of Starcraft and scale of Eve Online(i.e. huge space battles, space empires,etc).
Though this wouldn't stop anyone from contributing code/feedback/criticism, i'll be coordinating the project.
All code/ideas should be posted in this and subsequent threads which i'll start as needed.
step #1: We will collaboratively create a name for our project.
Each suggestion must explain why this name fits the project and why its better then any other generic name.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 15:25

>>476 Thees is Furtooel Mecheene-a, type-a 2, reed >>470



_____________________________________________
http://xs141.xs.to/xs141/09303/av992393.jpg
Cumpeeler: A prugrem vheech prudooces ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Roonteeme-a:A prugrem vheech lueds unuzeer prugrem es tup ixecooshun leyer
Furtooel mecheene-a:A prugrem vheech ixecootes bytecude-a
Interpreter:A Furtooel Mecheene-a vheech roons screepts
JIT:A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
Strunded in thees meell toon reeelrued yerd vheele-a zee vhule-a vurld ves cunfergeeng ilsoohere-a, ve-a seemed tu be-a nutheeng boot cheeldree pleyeeng emung herueec mee.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 15:26

>>477
By running SBCL.exe i get into interpreter.
Ha, what an idiot. Does SBCL even have an interpreter built in yet? For a long time it didn't, but I know somebody was working on adding one, since sometimes it's faster to interpret.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 15:26

Every piece of software has a runtime. A runtime is simply the sum of facilities offered by linked libraries and the VM it is run on(I'll include the operating system as a subset of the VM)

FV is simply equating light weight runtimes (such as those required by C/C++) with compiled, and heavy weight runtimes (such as those required by Java/C-octothorpe/Dynamic languages) with the actual word runtime/VM. FV is simply an idiot who's content with redefining common CS terms. How does this require several dozen posts to argue?

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 15:28

>>477
Do you know what intereptation is?
It means analyzing some source code and then executing the Abstract Syntax Tree which you parsed.
There is a huge difference between that and just loading some code in memory and just running it directly, which is what SBCL does.

By your incorrect definition of interpretation, all I have to do to make something interpreted is to take the program and run it through a packer(like UPX). The packer would write the executable code in a non-standard format and generate an executable from that. When you run the executable, the packer loader would unpack the code and load it into memory, and run it directly, with no speed loss.

Manually mapping code into memory is very fast and has nothing to do with interpreting code.

IHBTE

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 15:31

>>479
>>These are called Emulators.
>No, they're not. An emulator is a virtual machine that replicates or attempts to replicate the behavior or real hardware. >A virtual machine, such as the JVM, doesn't replicate any real hardware.
virtual machines that run machine code. JVM runs bytecode.

>>Its in the definition. I don't see how you can interpret it otherwise:
>>A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
>Right. If your definition of "compiler" is "a program that generates executables", then "to compile" must be "to >generate executables". Therefore, a JIT compiler , by your definition, "generates in-memory executables", as opposed >to a mere compiler, which writes them to a medium.
compiles to memory, what is hard to understand? it should be describe translates chunks of program to native code
 until the program resides in memory. Its a VM with the bytecode translation step removed.


_____________________________________________
http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 15:31

>>479
>>Zeese-a ere-a celled Imooleturs. Bork Bork Bork!
>Nu, zeey're-a nut. Bork Bork Bork! Un imooletur is a furtooel mecheene-a thet repleecetes oor ettempts tu repleecete-a zee behefeeur oor reel herdvere-a. Bork Bork Bork! >A furtooel mecheene-a, sooch es zee JFM, duesn't repleecete-a uny reel herdvere-a. Bork Bork Bork!
furtooel mecheenes thet roon mecheene-a cude-a. Bork Bork Bork! JFM roons bytecude-a. Bork Bork Bork!

>>Its in zee deffeenishun. Bork Bork Bork! I dun't see-a hoo yuoo cun interpret it oozeerveese-a:
>>A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
>Reeght. Bork Bork Bork! Iff yuoor deffeenishun ooff "cumpeeler" is "a prugrem thet generetes ixecootebles", zeen "tu cumpeele-a" moost be-a "tu >generete-a ixecootebles". Bork Bork Bork! Zeereffure-a, a JIT cumpeeler , by yuoor deffeenishun, "generetes in-memury ixecootebles", es ooppused >tu a mere-a cumpeeler, vheech vreetes zeem tu a medeeoom. Bork Bork Bork!
cumpeeles tu memury, vhet is herd tu understund? Bork Bork Bork! it shuoold be-a descreebe-a trunsletes choonks ooff prugrem tu neteefe-a cude-a
 unteel zee prugrem reseedes in memury. Bork Bork Bork! Its a FM veet zee bytecude-a trunsleshun step remufed. Bork Bork Bork!


_____________________________________________
http://xs141.xs.to/xs141/09303/av992393.jpg
Cumpeeler: A prugrem vheech prudooces ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Roonteeme-a:A prugrem vheech lueds unuzeer prugrem es tup ixecooshun leyer
Furtooel mecheene-a:A prugrem vheech ixecootes bytecude-a
Interpreter:A Furtooel Mecheene-a vheech roons screepts
JIT:A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
Iff oooor suceeety seems mure-a neehilistic thun thet ooff prefeeuoos ires, perheps thees is seemply a seegn ooff oooor metooreety es a senteeent speceees.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 15:32

>>483
>FV is simply an idiot who's content with redefining common CS terms. How does this require several dozen posts to argue?
Personally, I'm just trying to make him realize how stupid it is to try to redefine any of these terms. Defining even one creates a cascade and you end up redefining everything.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 15:33

Hmm, seems FrozenVoid is spinning off his original, not-a-true-assembler troll. When he argued that any assembly language which is not x86 is not a true assembly language.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 15:39

>>485
>virtual machines that run machine code. JVM runs bytecode.
The JVM was an example of a general VM? You want an example of VM that runs machine and isn't an emulator? Fine.
I write a virtual stack machine. I design the instruction set from scratch. I feed it machine code.
Is it an emulator? No.
Does it run bytecode? No.

>compiles to memory, what is hard to understand? it should be describe translates chunks of program to native code
until the program resides in memory. Its a VM with the bytecode translation step removed.
Look, you're the one trying to write Frozen Void's Dictionary of Computer Science. I'm just going by your own definitions:

JIT: A program which runs scripts and temporary *compiles* them into memory
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
To compile (Derivation): to use a program to produce executables.
JIT (Expansion): A program which runs scripts and temporary produces executables from them into memory

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 15:40

>>486
Am I a bad person for kind of liking Swedish Void?

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 15:40

>>487
Personally, I'm just trying to make him realize how stupid it is to try to redefine any of these terms.
Stop, just stop, you are the one that's stupid.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 15:41

>>484 UPX is just a self-extracting archive which extracts to memory.
It has nothing to do with VM,Runtimes,JIT or anything mentioned(its like a prog.exe.zip which loads into memory as prog.exe).
 

Decompression

UPX supports two mechanisms for decompression - an in-place technique and extraction to temporary file.

The in-place technique, which decompresses the executable into memory, is not possible on all supported platforms. The rest use extraction to temporary file. This procedure involves additional overhead and other disadvantages; however, it allows any executable file format to be packed. The executable is extracted to a temporary location, and then open() is used to obtain a file descriptor.

____________________________________________
http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
A different conception of society, very different from that which now prevails, is in process of formation.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 15:42

>>484 UPX is joost a selff-ixtrecteeng ercheefe vheech ixtrects tu memury. Bork Bork Bork!
It hes nutheeng tu du veet FM,Roonteemes,JIT oor unytheeng menshuned(its leeke-a a prug.ixe-a.zeep vheech lueds intu memury es prug.ixe-a). Bork Bork Bork!
 

Decumpresseeun

UPX sooppurts tvu mechuneesms fur decumpresseeun - un in-plece-a techneeqooe-a und ixtrecshun tu tempurery feele-a. Bork Bork Bork!

Zee in-plece-a techneeqooe-a, vheech decumpresses zee ixecooteble-a intu memury, is nut pusseeble-a oon ell sooppurted pletffurms. Bork Bork Bork! Zee rest use-a ixtrecshun tu tempurery feele-a. Bork Bork Bork! Thees prucedoore-a infulfes eddeeshunel ooferheed und oozeer deesedfunteges; hooefer, it elloos uny ixecooteble-a feele-a furmet tu be-a pecked. Bork Bork Bork! Zee ixecooteble-a is ixtrected tu a tempurery luceshun, und zeen oopee() is used tu oobteeen a feele-a descreeptur. Bork Bork Bork!

____________________________________________
http://xs141.xs.to/xs141/09303/av992393.jpg
Cumpeeler: A prugrem vheech prudooces ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Roonteeme-a:A prugrem vheech lueds unuzeer prugrem es tup ixecooshun leyer
Furtooel mecheene-a:A prugrem vheech ixecootes bytecude-a
Interpreter:A Furtooel Mecheene-a vheech roons screepts
JIT:A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
A deefffferent cuncepshun ooff suceeety, fery deefffferent frum thet vheech noo prefeeels, is in prucess ooff furmeshun.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 15:44

>>492
Actually it does, UPX unpacks code it has within itself and maps it into memory to be executed.
SBCL maps code it has within itself into memory to be executed.

Code runs directly afterwards in both cases.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 15:54

>>494 UPX doesn't write the UPX packer into the result program memory and neither the result program depends on UPX.
 Its just serves as shell. you can't unpack SBCL bundled with prog.bin and remove SBCL.exe, because then your program would not run. read >>470 2.vm.exe is bundled with prog.bin in same file and configured to execute prog.bin on startup



_______________________________
http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
He often argued that human intelligence was more trouble than it was worth. It was more destructive than creative, more confusing than revealing, more discouraging than satisfying, more spiteful than charitable.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 15:55

>>494 UPX duesn't vreete-a zee UPX pecker intu zee resoolt prugrem memury und neeezeer zee resoolt prugrem depends oon UPX. Bork Bork Bork!
 Its joost serfes es shell. Bork Bork Bork! yuoo cun't unpeck SBCL boondled veet prug.been und remufe-a SBCL.ixe-a, becoose-a zeen yuoor prugrem vuoold nut roon. Bork Bork Bork! reed >>470 2.fm.ixe-a is boondled veet prug.been in seme-a feele-a und cunffeegoored tu ixecoote-a prug.been oon stertoop



_______________________________
http://xs141.xs.to/xs141/09303/av992393.jpg
Cumpeeler: A prugrem vheech prudooces ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Roonteeme-a:A prugrem vheech lueds unuzeer prugrem es tup ixecooshun leyer
Furtooel mecheene-a:A prugrem vheech ixecootes bytecude-a
Interpreter:A Furtooel Mecheene-a vheech roons screepts
JIT:A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
He-a oofftee ergooed thet hoomun intelleegence-a ves mure-a truooble-a thun it ves vurt. Bork Bork Bork! It ves mure-a destroocteefe-a thun creeteefe-a, mure-a cunffooseeng thun refeeleeng, mure-a deescuooreging thun seteesffying, mure-a speeteffool thun chereeteble-a.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 16:02

Clear distinction:
You can unpack UPX packed .exe files and run them.
You can't "unpack" any .exe from the VM bundle.


________________________________
http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
The crucial and monumental development in the art music of our century has been the qualitative change in the foundational premises of our musical language--the change from a highly chromaticized tonality whose principle functions and operations are still based on a limited selection, the seven notes of the diatonic scale, from the universal set of twelve pitch classes to a scale that comprehends the total pitch-class content of that universal set. We can point to the moment of that change with some precision. It occurs most obviously in the music of Scriabin and the Vienna circle, Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg, in 1909-1910, and very soon afterwards, though less obviously, in the music of Bartok and Stravinsky. I think it is safe to say that nothing of comparable signifigance for music has ever occurred, because the closing of the circle of fifths gives us a symmetrical collection of all twelve pitch classes that eliminates the special structural function of the perfect fifth itself, which has been the basis of every real musical system that we have hitherto known.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 16:03

Cleer deestincshun:
Yuoo cun unpeck UPX pecked .ixe-a feeles und roon zeem. Bork Bork Bork!
Yuoo cun't "unpeck" uny .ixe-a frum zee FM boondle-a. Bork Bork Bork!


________________________________
http://xs141.xs.to/xs141/09303/av992393.jpg
Cumpeeler: A prugrem vheech prudooces ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Roonteeme-a:A prugrem vheech lueds unuzeer prugrem es tup ixecooshun leyer
Furtooel mecheene-a:A prugrem vheech ixecootes bytecude-a
Interpreter:A Furtooel Mecheene-a vheech roons screepts
JIT:A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
Zee crooceeel und munoomentel defelupment in zee ert mooseec ooff oooor centoory hes beee zee qooeleetetife-a chunge-a in zee fuoondeshunel premeeses ooff oooor mooseecel lungooege-a--zee chunge-a frum a heeghly chrumeteecized tuneleety vhuse-a preenciple-a fooncshuns und oopereshuns ere-a steell besed oon a leemited selecshun, zee sefee nutes ooff zee deeetunic scele-a, frum zee uneefersel set ooff tvelfe-a peetch clesses tu a scele-a thet cumprehends zee tutel peetch-cless cuntent ooff thet uneefersel set. Bork Bork Bork! Ve-a cun pueent tu zee mument ooff thet chunge-a veet sume-a preceesiun. Bork Bork Bork! It ooccoors must oobfeeuoosly in zee mooseec ooff Screeebin und zee Feeenna curcle-a, Schuenberg, Vebern, und Berg, in 1909-1910, und fery suun effterverds, thuoogh less oobfeeuoosly, in zee mooseec ooff Bertuk und Strefeensky. Bork Bork Bork! I theenk it is seffe-a tu sey thet nutheeng ooff cumpereble-a seegniffigunce-a fur mooseec hes ifer ooccoorred, becoose-a zee cluseeng ooff zee curcle-a ooff feeffths geefes us a symmetreecel cullecshun ooff ell tvelfe-a peetch clesses thet ileeminetes zee speceeel strooctoorel fooncshun ooff zee perffect feefft itselff, vheech hes beee zee besees ooff ifery reel mooseecel system thet ve-a hefe-a heezeertu knoon.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 16:04

>>495
The UPX loader does remain in memory (Section UPX1), and the program does not depend on it.

SBCL.exe itself is a loader ( about 90KB if you strip debug symbols (easy 2 minute task), the official build is 2MB only because is includes the debug symbols ), it loads the core into memory and provides Garbage Collection, and some exception handling code. It would be possible to move the GC and Exception handling part into the image, but it's nothing that important. You keep forgetting that the .core file contains native code too, and the code is ran directly after loading.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 16:07

>>497
But Fivs, your definition of a compiler is completely wrong! A compiler is just a translator, and has nothing to do with producing executable files. If anything, that's the linker's job!

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 16:23

>>499 Its just more steps in the VM("provides Garbage Collection, and some exception handling code")
1.vm.exe loads core.bin
2.vm.exe executes core.bin
3.core.bin translates file.lisp to file.bin
4.vm.exe is bundled with file.bin instead of core.bin
>>500 see >>467



____________________________________________
http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 16:23

>>499 Its joost mure-a steps in zee FM("prufeedes Gerbege-a Cullecshun, und sume-a ixcepshun hundleeng cude-a")
1.fm.ixe-a lueds cure-a.been
2.fm.ixe-a ixecootes cure-a.been
3.cure-a.been trunsletes feele-a.leesp tu feele-a.been
4.fm.ixe-a is boondled veet feele-a.been insteed ooff cure-a.been
>>500 see-a >>467



____________________________________________
http://xs141.xs.to/xs141/09303/av992393.jpg
Cumpeeler: A prugrem vheech prudooces ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Roonteeme-a:A prugrem vheech lueds unuzeer prugrem es tup ixecooshun leyer
Furtooel mecheene-a:A prugrem vheech ixecootes bytecude-a
Interpreter:A Furtooel Mecheene-a vheech roons screepts
JIT:A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
Peece-a cunnut be-a echeeefed by furce-a, oonly by understundeeng.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 16:42

>>501
Sure, but there is no need for core.bin to translate file.lisp to file.bin, if you tree-shake the core file, it will only contain the functions your application needs. If such functionality is similar to what you would require of a libc, there is no need for this file to be large at all.

".bin"/.core/.fasl is supposed to be a non-standard object file format (similar to obj or dll) containing native code, which can be mapped into memory and run directly by the CPU/OS.

A VM in a more correct definition, has to execute some sort of bytecode, but in this case, the small loader doesn't execute any bytecode, all it does is map executable native code into memory and just lets the CPU run it.

A better analogy can be made here:
Think of .obj files produced by your C compiler as similar to .fasl or .core.
Think of sbcl.exe as link.exe which write to memory instead of an executable.

The analogy is not technically correct, as the structure of those 2 formats differs widely, however both do contain native executable code which is meant to be ran directly, and link.exe does not provide garbage collection or exception handling, but the general concept still applies.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 16:50

here is side by side comparison from VM/Runtime and Compiler
Step#1: compiling
VM:1.vm.exe or compiler.exe  create prog.bin from prog.txt 
Compiler:1.Compiler.exe creates prog.exe from prog.txt
Step#2:executing
VM :2.vm.exe loads prog.bin, which is then executed. VM.exe can stay in emeory to support multipel prog.bin's or to provide fast startup times(JVM). Many VM's have different options and settings.
2.1. VM which execute text files: these are interpreters, they translate the text into native and run it(in contetx of VM).
2.2. VM which execute bytecode: these are true VMs, which translate bytecode to native code(which is subsequently run).
2.3. VM which execute binary images:These are emulators for hardware or layers above native code(virtualization).
Compiler: 2. prog.exe is executed. There is nothing else. Teh program runs and terminates.
________________________________________
http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
The basic objectives and principles of war do not change.The final objective in war is the destruction of the enemy's capacity and will to fight, and thereby force him to accept the imposition of the victor's will.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 16:50

here-a is seede-a by seede-a cumpereesun frum FM/Roonteeme-a und Cumpeeler
Step#1: cumpeeling
FM:1.fm.ixe-a oor cumpeeler.ixe-a  creete-a prug.been frum prug.txt 
Cumpeeler:1.Cumpeeler.ixe-a creetes prug.ixe-a frum prug.txt
Step#2:ixecooteeng
FM :2.fm.ixe-a lueds prug.been, vheech is zeen ixecooted. Bork Bork Bork! FM.ixe-a cun stey in imeury tu sooppurt moolteepel prug.been's oor tu prufeede-a fest stertoop teemes(JFM). Bork Bork Bork! Muny FM's hefe-a deefffferent oopshuns und setteengs. Bork Bork Bork!
2.1. Bork Bork Bork! FM vheech ixecoote-a text feeles: zeese-a ere-a interpreters, zeey trunslete-a zee text intu neteefe-a und roon it(in cuntetx ooff FM). Bork Bork Bork!
2.2. Bork Bork Bork! FM vheech ixecoote-a bytecude-a: zeese-a ere-a trooe-a FMs, vheech trunslete-a bytecude-a tu neteefe-a cude-a(vheech is soobseqooently roon). Bork Bork Bork!
2.3. Bork Bork Bork! FM vheech ixecoote-a beenery imeges:Zeese-a ere-a imooleturs fur herdvere-a oor leyers ebufe-a neteefe-a cude-a(furtooeleezeshun). Bork Bork Bork!
Cumpeeler: 2. Bork Bork Bork! prug.ixe-a is ixecooted. Bork Bork Bork! Zeere-a is nutheeng ilse-a. Bork Bork Bork! Teh prugrem roons und termeenetes. Bork Bork Bork!
________________________________________
http://xs141.xs.to/xs141/09303/av992393.jpg
Cumpeeler: A prugrem vheech prudooces ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Roonteeme-a:A prugrem vheech lueds unuzeer prugrem es tup ixecooshun leyer
Furtooel mecheene-a:A prugrem vheech ixecootes bytecude-a
Interpreter:A Furtooel Mecheene-a vheech roons screepts
JIT:A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
Zee beseec oobjecteefes und preenciples ooff ver du nut chunge-a.Zee feenel oobjecteefe-a in ver is zee destroocshun ooff zee inemy's cepeceety und veell tu feeght, und zeereby furce-a heem tu eccept zee impuseeshun ooff zee feectur's veell.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 16:58

>>503 I'm not going to argue about which format .core is
If sbcl compiler suite does not translate .core file into .exe files it fails as compiler.
Its like if GCC always stopped at .obj step, isn't this stupid?

small loader doesn't execute any bytecode, all it does is map executable native code into memory and just lets the CPU run it. Why i need this small loader? Why not create .exe from this "executable native code"?

_____________________________________
http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
More laws can't make us safe from the tragedies that are the inevitable result of freedom, and of living around other people. Life is real, life is uncertain, life is inevitably unsafe. Measures to make it safe at all costs come with dangers of their own.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 16:58

>>503 I'm nut gueeng tu ergooe-a ebuoot vheech furmet .cure-a is
Iff sbcl cumpeeler sooeete-a dues nut trunslete-a .cure-a feele-a intu .ixe-a feeles it feeels es cumpeeler. Bork Bork Bork!
Its leeke-a iff GCC elveys stupped et .oobj step, isn't thees stoopeed? Bork Bork Bork!

smell lueder duesn't ixecoote-a uny bytecude-a, ell it dues is mep ixecooteble-a neteefe-a cude-a intu memury und joost lets zee CPOo roon it. Bork Bork Bork! Vhy i need thees smell lueder? Bork Bork Bork! Vhy nut creete-a .ixe-a frum thees "ixecooteble-a neteefe-a cude-a"? Bork Bork Bork!

_____________________________________
http://xs141.xs.to/xs141/09303/av992393.jpg
Cumpeeler: A prugrem vheech prudooces ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Roonteeme-a:A prugrem vheech lueds unuzeer prugrem es tup ixecooshun leyer
Furtooel mecheene-a:A prugrem vheech ixecootes bytecude-a
Interpreter:A Furtooel Mecheene-a vheech roons screepts
JIT:A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
Mure-a levs cun't meke-a us seffe-a frum zee tregedeees thet ere-a zee inefeeteble-a resoolt ooff freedum, und ooff leefing eruoond oozeer peuple-a. Bork Bork Bork! Leeffe-a is reel, leeffe-a is uncerteeen, leeffe-a is inefeetebly unseffe-a. Bork Bork Bork! Meesoores tu meke-a it seffe-a et ell custs cume-a veet dungers ooff zeeur oovn.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 17:11

>>506
Its like if GCC always stopped at .obj step, isn't this stupid?
gcc does do that.
First it compiles to Assembly, then it calls the assembler, then it calls the linker.
I doubt there's any compiler that generates full executables without calling another program.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 17:14

I would accept a Lisp compiler on these conditions:
It would produce prog.exe from prog.exe by executing LispCompiler.exe -flag prog.txt
Any code which LispCompiler.exe produces must not depend on LispCompiler.exe or any libraries/runtimes which LispCompiler.exe installation program installs, it should be distributable across computers as single prog.exe file.



__________________________________________
http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
There can be no liberty for a community which lacks the means to detect lies.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 17:14

I vuoold eccept a Leesp cumpeeler oon zeese-a cundeeshuns:
It vuoold prudooce-a prug.ixe-a frum prug.ixe-a by ixecooteeng LeespCumpiler.ixe-a -fleg prug.txt
Uny cude-a vheech LeespCumpiler.ixe-a prudooces moost nut depend oon LeespCumpiler.ixe-a oor uny leebreries/roonteemes vheech LeespCumpiler.ixe-a instelleshun prugrem instells, it shuoold be-a deestribooteble-a ecruss cumpooters es seengle-a prug.ixe-a feele-a. Bork Bork Bork!



__________________________________________
http://xs141.xs.to/xs141/09303/av992393.jpg
Cumpeeler: A prugrem vheech prudooces ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Roonteeme-a:A prugrem vheech lueds unuzeer prugrem es tup ixecooshun leyer
Furtooel mecheene-a:A prugrem vheech ixecootes bytecude-a
Interpreter:A Furtooel Mecheene-a vheech roons screepts
JIT:A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
Zeere-a cun be-a nu leeberty fur a cummooneety vheech lecks zee meuns tu detect leees.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 17:15

>>508 TCC which i use daily. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_C_Compiler



___________________________________
http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
He often argued that human intelligence was more trouble than it was worth. It was more destructive than creative, more confusing than revealing, more discouraging than satisfying, more spiteful than charitable.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 17:15

>>508 TCC vheech i use-a deeely. Bork Bork Bork! http://ee.veekipedia.oorg/veeki/Teeny_C_Cumpeeler



___________________________________
http://xs141.xs.to/xs141/09303/av992393.jpg
Cumpeeler: A prugrem vheech prudooces ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Roonteeme-a:A prugrem vheech lueds unuzeer prugrem es tup ixecooshun leyer
Furtooel mecheene-a:A prugrem vheech ixecootes bytecude-a
Interpreter:A Furtooel Mecheene-a vheech roons screepts
JIT:A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
He-a oofftee ergooed thet hoomun intelleegence-a ves mure-a truooble-a thun it ves vurt. Bork Bork Bork! It ves mure-a destroocteefe-a thun creeteefe-a, mure-a cunffooseeng thun refeeleeng, mure-a deescuooreging thun seteesffying, mure-a speeteffool thun chereeteble-a.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 17:22

>>511
Alright, but that just means the compiler, the assembler, and the linker are all in the same executable.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 17:23

I could argue that these details are completly unimportant when it comes to the speed or inconvience to the user/player, but why would I, you've practically disqualified any languages except raw assembler (without OS dependencies). You should worry less about what language you will use, but in what language people might be interested to code in. How many people in [spoiler]/prog/[spoiler] are willing to contribute to your project and how many know whatever language you will chose and how many are willing to write a game in it. This discussion is pointless unless you consider these matters.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 17:26

>>513 Its not the case with SBCL, which is missing the linker part.



____________________________________________
http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Compiler: A program which produces executables.
Runtime:A program which loads another program as top execution layer
Virtual machine:A program which executes bytecode
Interpreter:A Virtual Machine which runs scripts
JIT:A program which runs scripts and temporary compiles them into memory
The basic objectives and principles of war do not change.The final objective in war is the destruction of the enemy's capacity and will to fight, and thereby force him to accept the imposition of the victor's will.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 17:26

>>513 Its nut zee cese-a veet SBCL, vheech is meessing zee leenker pert. Bork Bork Bork!



____________________________________________
http://xs141.xs.to/xs141/09303/av992393.jpg
Cumpeeler: A prugrem vheech prudooces ixecootebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Roonteeme-a:A prugrem vheech lueds unuzeer prugrem es tup ixecooshun leyer
Furtooel mecheene-a:A prugrem vheech ixecootes bytecude-a
Interpreter:A Furtooel Mecheene-a vheech roons screepts
JIT:A prugrem vheech roons screepts und tempurery cumpeeles zeem intu memury
Zee beseec oobjecteefes und preenciples ooff ver du nut chunge-a.Zee feenel oobjecteefe-a in ver is zee destroocshun ooff zee inemy's cepeceety und veell tu feeght, und zeereby furce-a heem tu eccept zee impuseeshun ooff zee feectur's veell.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 17:31

>>514
SBCL is not programmer-friendly or player-friendly.
 Its not fit for development anyway. Arguments about its not being a VM will reduce to 2 points
1.Its not really a VM, "except this little loader".
2.Its not important that its a VM, its just very good at rapid app development.
Neither points are true. I'm removing compiler/VM definitions:they steal sig space and they only cause additional arguments.

________________________________________________
http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Eternity lies ahead of us, and behind.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 17:31

>>514
SBCL is nut prugremmer-freeendly oor pleyer-freeendly. Bork Bork Bork!
 Its nut feet fur defelupment unyvey. Bork Bork Bork! Ergooments ebuoot its nut beeeng a FM veell redooce-a tu 2 pueents
1.Its nut reelly a FM, "ixcept thees leettle-a lueder". Bork Bork Bork!
2.Its nut impurtunt thet its a FM, its joost fery guud et repeed epp defelupment. Bork Bork Bork!
Neeezeer pueents ere-a trooe-a. Bork Bork Bork! I'm remufeeng cumpeeler/FM deffeenishuns:zeey steel seeg spece-a und zeey oonly coose-a eddeeshunel ergooments. Bork Bork Bork!

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http://xs141.xs.to/xs141/09303/av992393.jpg
Iterneety leees eheed ooff us, und beheend.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 17:39

a
b
c

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 17:43

>>517
Most lisp environments are not meant to be used directly when developing. Go watch that slime.mov that was posted earlier to see how it's supposed to work.
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