Return Styles: Pseud0ch, Terminal, Valhalla, NES, Geocities, Blue Moon. Entire thread

Strategy Game Collaboration

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-19 0:46

Experimental RTS/Space sim Collaborative Coding Project.
The goal is to design a game with structure/settings/balance of Starcraft and scale of Eve Online(i.e. huge space battles, space empires,etc).
Though this wouldn't stop anyone from contributing code/feedback/criticism, i'll be coordinating the project.
All code/ideas should be posted in this and subsequent threads which i'll start as needed.
step #1: We will collaboratively create a name for our project.
Each suggestion must explain why this name fits the project and why its better then any other generic name.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 12:35

>>399 excellent page btw, let me quote it:
A run-time system relieves programmers from the burden of writing code for mundane tasks such as drawing text on the screen or making an Internet connection. It also provides an abstraction layer that hides the complexity or variations in the services offered by the operating system. In the limit, the run-time system may be a P-code machine or virtual machine, that hides even the processor's instruction set. This is the approach followed by many interpreted languages such as Lisp and Awk , and some languages like Java that are meant to be compiled into some machine-independent pseudo-code ("bytecode"). This arrangement greatly simplifies the task of language implementation and its adaptation to different machines, and allows sophisticated language features such as reflection (computing). It also allows the same program to be executed on any machine without recompilation, a feature that has become very important since after the diffusion of the World Wide Web.

It says in this paragraph directly what your runtime system is. With Lisp and Java as examples. 


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There never was a good war, or a bad peace.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 12:35

>>400
488.8 MiB.
Still, pretty large, considering a compiler like MinGW is only 57.5 MiB.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 12:36

>>400
Cool story bro

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 12:38

>>394
No you can access only functions from its interface(or more accurately remove functions from the VM).
You can list, create, delete packages. Packages contain symbols, which link to everything else. You can inspect, modify, redefine, make them unbound, undefine, and so on, any symbol, and you can save the new state of the world ( this is usually used when standalone executable are wanted ). You can access private symbols of packages too, for example
cl:car would point to the CAR symbol, which is functionally bound:


CAR
--------------------
The object is a SYMBOL. ..
Name: "CAR"
Package: #<PACKAGE "COMMON-LISP">
Value: #:INSPECT-UNBOUND-OBJECT-581
Function: #<FUNCTION CAR>
Plist: NIL


Let's say i want to look at some internal part of the image, i can do that:


#<PACKAGE "SB-THREAD">
--------------------
The object is a STRUCTURE-OBJECT of type PACKAGE. ..
%NAME: "SB-THREAD"
%NICKNAMES: NIL
%USE-LIST: (#<PACKAGE "SB-KERNEL"> #<PACKAGE "SB-SYS"> #<PACKAGE "SB-INT"> ..)
TABLES: (NIL #<SB-IMPL::PACKAGE-HASHTABLE :SIZE 1425 :FREE 475 :DELETED 0> ..)
%USED-BY-LIST: NIL
INTERNAL-SYMBOLS: #<SB-IMPL::PACKAGE-HASHTABLE :SIZE 188 :FREE 64 :DELETED 0>
EXTERNAL-SYMBOLS: #<SB-IMPL::PACKAGE-HASHTABLE :SIZE 62 :FREE 22 :DELETED 0>
%SHADOWING-SYMBOLS: NIL
DOC-STRING: "public (but low-level): native thread support"
LOCK: T
%IMPLEMENTATION-PACKAGES: NIL
SOURCE-LOCATION: NIL


I can then examine the internal symbols in the package

#<(SIMPLE-VECTOR 251) {223CF917}>
--------------------
Dimensions: (251)
Element type: T
Total size: 251
Adjustable: NIL
Fill pointer: NIL
Contents:
0: SB-THREAD::CALL-WITH-RECURSIVE-SYSTEM-SPINLOCK
1: SB-THREAD::COPY-SESSION
2: 0
3: 0
4: SB-THREAD::MAKE-SESSION
5: SB-THREAD::CALL-WITH-RECURSIVE-SYSTEM-SPINLOCK/WITHOUT-GCING
6: 0
7: SB-THREAD::WITH-SYSTEM-SPINLOCK
8: 0
9: SB-THREAD::FORMS
10: SB-THREAD::SEMAPHORE-P
11: 0
12: SB-THREAD::SET-MUTEX-VALUE
13: SB-THREAD::CALL-WITH-SPINLOCK
...
247: SB-THREAD::WAIT-P
248: SB-THREAD::CALL-WITH-SYSTEM-MUTEX
249: SB-THREAD::NEW-SESSION
250: SB-THREAD::WITH-SPINLOCK

Note that :: which clearly states that the symbol is internal, but if you were to use :: to access it instead of :, it would work.


CL-USER> (fboundp 'SB-THREAD::NEW-SESSION)
T
CL-USER> (disassemble 'SB-THREAD::NEW-SESSION)
; disassembly for SB-THREAD::NEW-SESSION
; 230C9E3E:       8B05089E0C23     MOV EAX, [#x230C9E08]      ; 'SB-THREAD:*CURRENT-THREAD*
                                                              ; no-arg-parsing entry point
;       44:       8B48FD           MOV ECX, [EAX-3]
;       47:       83F94A           CMP ECX, 74
;       4A:       7453             JEQ L0
;       4C:       E8BC6CF3FE       CALL #x22000B0D            ; ALLOCATE-CONS-TO-EAX
;       51:       8948FD           MOV [EAX-3], ECX
;       54:       C740010B001022   MOV DWORD PTR [EAX+1], 571473931
;       5B:       8B0D089E0C23     MOV ECX, [#x230C9E08]      ; 'SB-THREAD:*CURRENT-THREAD*
;       61:       8B51FD           MOV EDX, [ECX-3]
;       64:       83FA4A           CMP EDX, 74
;       67:       743B             JEQ L1
;       69:       E8686CF3FE       CALL #x22000AD6            ; ALLOCATE-CONS-TO-ECX
;       6E:       8951FD           MOV [ECX-3], EDX
;       71:       C741010B001022   MOV DWORD PTR [ECX+1], 571473931
;       78:       8B150C9E0C23     MOV EDX, [#x230C9E0C]      ; :THREADS
;       7E:       8BF8             MOV EDI, EAX
;       80:       8B35109E0C23     MOV ESI, [#x230C9E10]      ; :INTERACTIVE-THREADS
;       86:       894DF8           MOV [EBP-8], ECX
;       89:       8B05149E0C23     MOV EAX, [#x230C9E14]      ; #<FDEFINITION object for SB-THREAD::MAKE-SESSION>
;       8F:       B910000000       MOV ECX, 16
;       94:       FF7504           PUSH DWORD PTR [EBP+4]
;       97:       FF6005           JMP DWORD PTR [EAX+5]
;       9A:       CC0A             BREAK 10                   ; error trap
;       9C:       02               BYTE #X02
;       9D:       18               BYTE #X18                  ; INVALID-ARG-COUNT-ERROR
;       9E:       4D               BYTE #X4D                  ; ECX
;       9F: L0:   CC0A             BREAK 10                   ; error trap
;       A1:       02               BYTE #X02
;       A2:       1A               BYTE #X1A                  ; UNBOUND-SYMBOL-ERROR
;       A3:       0E               BYTE #X0E                  ; EAX
;       A4: L1:   CC0A             BREAK 10                   ; error trap
;       A6:       02               BYTE #X02
;       A7:       1A               BYTE #X1A                  ; UNBOUND-SYMBOL-ERROR
;       A8:       4E               BYTE #X4E                  ; ECX
NIL

No native code right?
I could just as well, redefine the function if I wanted, but there's no need:


CL-USER> (setf (symbol-function 'SB-THREAD::NEW-SESSION) #'(lambda (...) (...)))

#<FUNCTION (LAMBDA (X)) {24AEF27D}>


I should really stop arguing with you, do some research first.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 12:38

>>402
Compare the standard library functions bro. I believe that GHC offers more as compared to a standard C library install.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 12:38

>>401
You read just what you want to don't you?

>In C and later languages that supported dynamic memory allocation, the runtime also included a library that managed the program's memory pool.

Here is, for example, a runtime library for binaries compiled by Visual C/C++ 2008:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9b2da534-3e03-4391-8a4d-074b9f2bc1bf&displaylang=en

Just because you don't know bout it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The only thing worse than an ignorant is an arrogant ignorant.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 12:40

>>405
Yes, no doubt, but it's still pretty fucking large.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 12:41

>>400
Quite big, even MinGw which has like a huge compiler pack(GCC,Java,ADA,G++,Fortran,Objective-C) is merely 210 mb.



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The genius of culture is to create an ontological system so compelling that what is inside and outside of a person are viewed as of a piece, no seams and patches noticeable.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 12:41

>>400
Qooeete-a beeg, ifee MeenGv vheech hes leeke-a a hooge-a cumpeeler peck(GCC,Jefa,EDA,G++,Furtrun,Oobjecteefe-a-C) is merely 210 mb. Bork Bork Bork!



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Zee geneeoos ooff cooltoore-a is tu creete-a un oontulugeecel system su cumpelleeng thet vhet is inseede-a und ooootseede-a ooff a persun ere-a feeooed es ooff a peeece-a, nu seems und petches nuteeceeble-a.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 12:44

>>406 I've had to install this runtime to run several programs. MSVC++ is disqualified.



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When you can give the right answer, even though your past road was one of death, you open up a new road of life.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 12:48

>>410
Are you fucking retarded or AIBT?
What the fuck do you think libc is? Just because the OS installs it for you, it doesn't make it any less of a runtime library. Why do you think Linux binaries have so many compatibility problems between different distros?

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 12:56

A C program does straightforward thing:It start executing code,loading variables.
Lisp would have to: setup its VM and load the "worldscript" image,then run the image.

Anyway, if you can use SBCL to work by scheme in >>323
and willing to explain how its done, it will be accepted again for consideration.

A lisp file is compiled to a fasl(native code at this point), a fasl can be loaded into the core image(symbols/code/data from the fasl are now inside the core image memory), then you dump the core/wrold image, maybe tree-shake it if you want first, and get a new core file, which contains just your code and the needed functions from the implementation. This yields a small loader exe and the .core image which contains the code of the game and whatever is needed from the libraries. If you truly require one single exe, you could combine the main exe with the core image, which would only change the place from where the exe loads the compiled functions/data.

1.A batch file is run with this command inside: compiler -flags main.program
2.It produces  Main.exe (in other platforms other formats)
3.Main.exe runs, standalone and without any further requirements.

Building in CL is usually done using ASDF, but it can be done by calling COMPILE manually too, so everything is done from LISP, all you have to do is execute something like (compile "file.lisp") or (asdf:oos :load-op :system-name). If you want to save the system image you will have to look up your implementation's documentation to find the command for doing that. It was save-lisp-and-die for SBCL(on Windows, this command needs a bit more preparation if you have external imports from other libraries, but it's nothing hard to automate.)

If you require a bat for doing this, all you have to do is just run sbcl with the proper command line which loads a script which loads/builds/prepares image/tree shakes and saves the core, and you would get a new image. If you want it all in one executable, go get the SBCL source code and modify the loader so it would load the core from resources or from the executable's overlay, then build it.

THESE ARE ALL TRIVIAL MATTERS.
IHBTE

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 12:58

>>410
Cygwin comes with runtime libraries too. Mingw uses Windows' libraries AFAIR, the same libraries used by MSVC++. The only thing that doesn't have a runtime is code which runs on the bare metal, without an OS.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 13:04

>>413
Cygwin does use a runtime. A DLL called cygwin.dll or something like that.
MinGW, however, doesn't. It statically links code to the executable. This is why a simple Hello World compiled by MinGW can be 500 KiB if it includes <iostream>.

It's possible to not use runtimes (I think), but you'll have to write in unportable code and manage dynamic allocation (i.e. implement malloc()) and I/O yourself using system calls.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 13:06

>>411  If library comes with the OS and player don't have to download and install it, its fine.
I'm not "blindly opposed" to runtimes. There features which i hate, and wouldn't allow inside a project.
>>412 describe a batch file which compiles hypothethical testprogram.lisp and describe what it does to get result.exe
>>413 "the same libraries used by MSVC++" Bullshit, what about the zillions of program which run on my computer all these years and only a week ago i had to Install MSVC++ runtime because of your shitty programs?


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A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 13:06

>>414 again.
Oh, and MinGW is the *only* compiler I know of that doesn't use runtimes. Everything else, including GCC in all its flavors, use some form of library linked at run time.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 13:06

>>411  Iff leebrery cumes veet zee OoS und pleyer dun't hefe-a tu doonlued und instell it, its feene-a. Bork Bork Bork!
I'm nut "bleendly ooppused" tu roonteemes. Bork Bork Bork! Zeere-a feetoores vheech i hete-a, und vuooldn't elloo inseede-a a pruject. Bork Bork Bork!
>>412 descreebe-a a betch feele-a vheech cumpeeles hypuzeetheecel testprugrem.leesp und descreebe-a vhet it dues tu get resoolt.ixe-a
>>413 "zee seme-a leebreries used by MSFC++" Boollsheet, vhet ebuoot zee zeelliuns ooff prugrem vheech roon oon my cumpooter ell zeese-a yeers und oonly a veek egu i hed tu Instell MSFC++ roonteeme-a becoose-a ooff yuoor sheetty prugrems? Bork Bork Bork!


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http://xs141.xs.to/xs141/09303/av992393.jpg
A theeng is nut necessereely trooe-a becoose-a a mun deees fur it.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 13:10

>>416 Interesting.What about Digital Mars C and Pelles C?


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When you look at the whole life of the planet, we - you know, man - has only been around for a few blinks of an eye. So if the infection wipes us all out... that is a return to normality.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 13:10

>>416 Interesteeng.Vhet ebuoot Deegitel Mers C und Pelles C? Bork Bork Bork!


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Vhee yuoo luuk et zee vhule-a leeffe-a ooff zee plunet, ve-a - yuoo knoo, mun - hes oonly beee eruoond fur a foo bleenks ooff un iye-a. Bork Bork Bork! Su iff zee inffecshun veepes us ell oooot... Bork Bork Bork! thet is a retoorn tu nurmeleety.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 13:13

>>415
I've said it before, but you promptly ignored me as the faggot you are.
An automated installer can handle installing a runtime for the user. Any program that requires you to manually install a library is not providing a good installation method.

>Bullshit, what about the zillions of program which run on my computer all these years and only  a week ago i had to Install MSVC++ runtime because of your shitty programs?
The MSVC++ runtime has been around since around 2005. You've probably used many programs that linked to it without even realizing it. Those programs had a good installation method.

The entire runtime is only a couple of DLLs. You just need to put them in the same directory as the binary and you're done.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 13:21

>>420 Three programs in entire d:\program files tree use *msvc*files.
 The program i had to install last week,
GHC and MingGW(both in form of lib.a file, not actual .dll).


"An automated installer can handle installing a runtime for the user. Any program that requires you to manually install a library is not providing a good installation method." These libraries should be statically linked.


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http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
What makes you think human beings are sentient and aware? There's no evidence for it. Human beings never think for themselves, they find it too uncomfortable. For the most part, members of our species simply repeat what they are told-and become upset if they are exposed to any different view. The characteristic human trait is not awareness but conformity, and the characteristic result is religious warfare. Other animals fight for territory or food; but, uniquely in the animal kingdom, human beings fight for their 'beliefs.' The reason is that beliefs guide behavior which has evolutionary importance among human beings. But at a time when our behavior may well lead us to extinction, I see no reason to assume we have any awareness at all. We are stubborn, self-destructive conformists. Any other view of our species is just a self-congratulatory delusion. Next question.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 13:21

>>418
Are they free and not shit?

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 13:26

>>422 Both are free. DMC is not in development though.

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Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 13:27

>>422 But ere-a free-a. Bork Bork Bork! DMC is nut in defelupment thuoogh. Bork Bork Bork!

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Peece-a cunnut be-a echeeefed by furce-a, oonly by understundeeng.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 13:30

>>423
But are they not shit? As reference, anything worse than MinGW is already too shitty.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 13:30

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:C_compilers Plenty more compilers. Some could be alternatives to GCC.
Especially recommended TCC(TinyC) and DMC(DigitalMarsC).



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http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Well, a blockaded bishop is of little value, but I think you're referring to a pawn.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 13:32

>>415
Something of this sort:
sbcl --script "(progn (compile-file \"testprogram.lisp\")(load \"testprogram.lisp\") (save-lisp-and-die "result.core" ...other options for compilation go here...)" You can then run that core as opposed directly like loader.exe --core result.core , or make the loader contain the core by itself. No tree-shaking is included in that example, and you would probably have much more complicated build cycles for real games, which is why you shouldn't use that, but use ASDF instead which builds and loads systems for you. Also, this is not how most developers would compile code, they would just load the system through asdf in their environment, and run the game dynamically. This would only be done when you distribute the game.

It's unusual to use a compile and run method for developing lisp code, as lisp can just compile code as you write it, and you can test it live in the REPL.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 13:33

>>425 I can't say "its shit or not" but they are
1.Smaller then GCC, and have less functionality/libs(by default).
2.Produce slower code, in most cases.
3.Have no wide support(Except some commercial compilers) and have incompatibilities with GCC.


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I turned my thoughts to a still more novel mode..to compose pictures on canvas similar to representations on the stage...my picture is my stage,and men and women my players exhibited in a 'dumb' show.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 13:33

>>425 I cun't sey "its sheet oor nut" boot zeey ere-a
1.Smeller zeen GCC, und hefe-a less fooncshuneleety/leebs(by deffoolt). Bork Bork Bork!
2.Prudooce-a slooer cude-a, in must ceses. Bork Bork Bork!
3.Hefe-a nu veede-a sooppurt(Ixcept sume-a cummerceeel cumpeelers) und hefe-a incumpeteebilities veet GCC. Bork Bork Bork!


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I toorned my thuooghts tu a steell mure-a nufel mude-a..tu cumpuse-a peectoores oon cunfes seemiler tu representeshuns oon zee stege-a...my peectoore-a is my stege-a,und mee und vumee my pleyers ixheebited in a 'doomb' shoo.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 13:34

change --script to --eval, sorry.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 13:36

>>428
So, in other words, they *are* shit.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 13:37

>>427 where is the .exe file? 



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In wilderness I sense the miracle of life, and behind it our scientific accomplishments fade to trivia.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 13:37

>>427 vhere-a is zee .ixe-a feele-a? 



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In veelderness I sense-a zee murecle-a ooff leeffe-a, und beheend it oooor sceeentiffic eccumpleeshments fede-a tu treefia.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-22 13:43

A compiler should work like this:
1.A batch file is run with this command inside: compiler -flags main.program
2.It produces  Main.exe (in other platforms other formats)
3.Main.exe runs, standalone and without any further requirements.
Anything which deviates from this form isn't a valid compiler.

I'd want to see
1. Contents of batch file which runs sbcl with parameters on a testprogram.lisp
2. a result executable.
I don't want to see: loaders/vm/runtimes or anything which cannot be distributed as single .exe file.

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There's nothing in the world so demoralizing as money.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==C=H=E=F=*=+= 2009-07-22 13:43

A cumpeeler shuoold vurk leeke-a thees:
1.A betch feele-a is roon veet thees cummund inseede-a: cumpeeler -flegs meeen.prugrem
2.It prudooces  Meeen.ixe-a (in oozeer pletffurms oozeer furmets)
3.Meeen.ixe-a roons, stundelune-a und veethuoot uny foorzeer reqoourements. Bork Bork Bork!
Unytheeng vheech defeeetes frum thees furm isn't a feleed cumpeeler. Bork Bork Bork!

I'd vunt tu see-a
1. Bork Bork Bork! Cuntents ooff betch feele-a vheech roons sbcl veet peremeters oon a testprugrem.leesp
2. Bork Bork Bork! a resoolt ixecooteble-a. Bork Bork Bork!
I dun't vunt tu see-a: lueders/fm/roonteemes oor unytheeng vheech cunnut be-a deestribooted es seengle-a .ixe-a feele-a. Bork Bork Bork!

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Zeere's nutheeng in zee vurld su demureleezing es muney.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 13:43

DirectX is a runtime, OpenGL is a runtime, libc is a runtime. There is no way to make this game without installing runtimes.

You could go bare metal, and start with nothing but the hardware, but all that you will do is reinvent a modern operating system... how many years do you think it will take to get average compatibility with today's hardware?

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 13:49

>>434
I could spend half a day and make something which generates standalone executables, all I would have to do is modify the way it loads .core. I value my time more than to spend half a day of work, just to prove to you how to make a "standalone executable" without a .core file. Just use ECL and compile to C, if you hate core files that much. You'd get your "standalone" that way. Oh wait, I forgot, you don't want to compile ECL yourself.

Good luck with the game, Mr. Void

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 13:49

>>436
In case you didn't know, the point is that it should be convenient. LibC is installed in all Linux systems. DirectX is already installed in Windows systems. For me personally, I want Javascript because of its awesome programming elements.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 13:50

>>438
I've seen many games which needed you to update your DirectX, or want some slightly newer version of one of d3d dll.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-22 13:51

>>434
So, basically, what you're saying is that you'll never produce anything much more complex than a Hello World, right?

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