Strategy Game Collaboration

Experimental RTS/Space sim Collaborative Coding Project.
The goal is to design a game with structure/settings/balance of Starcraft and scale of Eve Online(i.e. huge space battles, space empires,etc).
Though this wouldn't stop anyone from contributing code/feedback/criticism, i'll be coordinating the project.
All code/ideas should be posted in this and subsequent threads which i'll start as needed.
step #1: We will collaboratively create a name for our project.
Each suggestion must explain why this name fits the project and why its better then any other generic name.

>>353
What does a world image contain?
Some metadata which describes the objects in the image, and
The objects: compiled functions(which contain native code), and data such as objects used by that code.
What does an executable contain?
Some metadata which describes the sections and some of the objects in the image, and the actual objects:
- a code section, which contains all compiled functions/code
- data sections which contains the data used by that code.

The real difference is just the format used and amount of metadata available (which is also present in the form of debug info in gcc compiled executables, unless stripped). When the code is loaded into memory, it executes natively, and it makes no real difference how it was stored originally.

There is another difference here that world images can be saved live, while the code is running. This can also be done on compiled code, by dumping the code's memory, but it requires restoring of things which were lost upon loading the image into memory(such as imports), or adding new code which reinitializes temporary resources.

>>361 The real difference is Firefox.exe(or its analogues) is required and cannot be removed.
Tell me what file all "compiled" Lisp programs have to include and you found your Firefox.exe



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http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
We hold life to be sacred, but we also know the foundation of life consists in a stream of codes not so different from the successive frames of a watchvid. Why then cannot we cut one code short here, and start another there? Is life so fragile that it can withstand no tampering? Does the sacred brook no improvement?

>>360
back to /\w?/, please.

All right.  Let's use C.  FrozenVoid's the only one against it, and he's not going to use it.

It's decided.

frozen chef makes me come back time and again

>>355
There are many practical issues in doing that, and why would you need firefox?
I'm not familiar at all with Javascript, but in a theoretical scenario, you could make a standalone TraceMonkey version which compiled each individial function to native code, then generated an executable which contains metadata of the functions and the actual function code.

Oh, i feel i found the suspect, its this file called 'sbcl.core' alright?
This is what your "world" is based on?

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http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
Leave no stone unturned.

>>362 The real difference is Windows(or its analogues) is required and cannot be removed.
Tell me what file all "compiled" C programs have to include and you found your rundll32.exe

>>367
sbcl.exe is merely something which maps the core(world) image into memory. It can't be compared to Firefox, it's nothing more than a simple loader. It wouldn't be hard to integrate the core image and loader into one executable, if that bothers you.

I love how FV has got so hung up on all this compiler bullshit when there are more pressing issues to consider, like, say, the actual project..

>>368 It cannot be compared because no one ever did such things with Firefox memory.
sbcl.core.exe+lispscript=firefox.exe+javascript
The difference you can't create memory snapshots of Firefox in user-friendly way without including useless code and data.


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http://xs135.xs.to/xs135/09042/av922.jpg
No great idea in its beginning can ever be within the law. How can it be within the law? The law is stationary. The law is fixed. The law is a chariot wheel which binds us all regardless of conditions or place or time.

>>368 It cunnut be-a cumpered becoose-a nu oone-a ifer deed sooch theengs veet Fureffux memury. Bork Bork Bork!
sbcl.cure-a.ixe-a+leespscript=fureffux.ixe-a+jefescreept
Zee deefffference-a yuoo cun't creete-a memury snepshuts ooff Fureffux in user-freeendly vey veethuoot incloodeeng useless cude-a und deta. Bork Bork Bork!


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Nu greet idea in its begeenning cun ifer be-a veethin zee lev. Bork Bork Bork! Hoo cun it be-a veethin zee lev? Bork Bork Bork! Zee lev is steshunery. Bork Bork Bork! Zee lev is feexed. Bork Bork Bork! Zee lev is a chereeut vheel vheech beends us ell regerdless ooff cundeeshuns oor plece-a oor teeme-a.

>>370
Do you think he even knows what a storyboard is?

>>371 see >>369
firefox.exe = sbcl.core + webpage rendering + user interface + other crap useless for the interpretation of scripts.

>>370
The project is about trolling /prog/ exponentially. 370 Posts full of trolling on every language.

>>375
At least the project is 37.6% complete.

>>376
377 get

>>364,370 Some programmers want to code it in Lisp and other interpreted/VM languages
and i cannot refuse this option without explaining their true nature.(and incompatibility with goals: which is harder to demonstrate because you can write a game in such language, but it will be obviously slower, more memory-hungry, and require runtime to be installed, compared to native code).



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Only the dead have seen the end of war.

>>364,370 Sume-a prugremmers vunt tu cude-a it in Leesp und oozeer interpreted/FM lungooeges
und i cunnut reffoose-a thees oopshun veethuoot ixpleeening zeeur trooe-a netoore-a.(und incumpeteebility veet guels: vheech is herder tu demunstrete-a becoose-a yuoo cun vreete a geme-a in sooch lungooege-a, boot it veell be-a oobfeeuoosly slooer, mure-a memury-hoongry, und reqooure-a roonteeme-a tu be-a instelled, cumpered tu neteefe-a cude-a). Bork Bork Bork!



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Oonly zee deed hefe-a seee zee ind ooff ver.

frozen void, post more, I want to read frozen chef.

>>378
Except Lisp and Factor are not interepted unless you want them to be. The code is loaded into memory and executes straight away, there's no JIT involved ( you can do something like JIT for scripting, if you want to, if you include the entire LISP implementation (somewhat large - 5-20MB), you could compile code at runtime, and run it right away. ). It's not memory hungry unless you make it memory hungry:
1)You want code which allocs(conses) less? Sure, you can do that. If you're so hung up about memory usage, you could make entirely cons-less code, but don't forget that modern games are very resource hungry, much more than any Lisp implementation is.
2)You want a small executable: tree shake the image, and you can get it very small, some people have gotten small tools to be under 50-100KB. This is usually done only for deployment, it's slightly less work to just distribute compiled packages as FASL's.

but it will be obviously slower
How many times was it mentioned that functions are compiled to native code? It will be slower than C, unless you plan on optimizing everything, but this speed loss is not important except on time sensitive code, which can be optimized or even written in C if needed.
and require runtime to be installed
What runtime? Your game will need to include dll's/libraries anyway, for sound/graphics/movies/compression/... Runtimes are not installed in the user's system, they're just bundled files along with everything else. You could of course pack everything up in one executable which runs out of the box, but why do such a thing?

>compared to native code
This is already natively compiled, the only addional cost is manually loading code into memory, as opposed to the OS doing it for you. Do you know that using an executable packer such as UPX on your code, would make it manually load the code into memory? It's no greater cost than that.

>>380 I have no special concern for post volume. I can express myself in whatever time i wish.
Its not like we're running out of paper. Now, I'd like to check those competitors to >>364:
Haskell,Forth and Scheme( C++ compilers are mostly C compatible).
1.Are they VMs/Interpreters/runtime systems?
2.Can we produce code easily in them, without having to debug each line?
3.Is the process of installing compiler,copying code from /prog/, compiling and testing it cumbersome for chosen compiler/
toolkit system? (ideally this should be usable in half-hour for anyone browsing here, and without manual installation routines)

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...and that if one steps back into abstracted considerations derived without respect to such concerns, an understanding of the qualities of musical uniqueness will continue to be suppressed in favor of generalizations, which at best evoke a vague sense of what a piece may be doing, perhaps in common with some other pieces, but not what one piece is doing, all by itself.

>>380 I hefe-a nu speceeel cuncern fur pust fuloome-a. Bork Bork Bork! I cun ixpress myselff in vhetefer teeme-a i veesh. Bork Bork Bork!
Its nut leeke-a ve're-a roonneeng oooot ooff peper. Bork Bork Bork! Noo, I'd leeke-a tu check thuse-a cumpeteeturs tu >>364:
Heskell,Furt und Scheme-a( C++ cumpeelers ere-a mustly C cumpeteeble-a). Bork Bork Bork!
1.Ere-a zeey FMs/Interpreters/roonteeme-a systems? Bork Bork Bork!
2.Cun ve-a prudooce-a cude-a ieseely in zeem, veethuoot hefeeng tu deboog iech leene-a? Bork Bork Bork!
3.Is zee prucess ooff instelleeng cumpeeler,cupyeeng cude-a frum /prug/, cumpeeling und testeeng it coombersume-a fur chusee cumpeeler/
tuulkeet system? Bork Bork Bork! (ideelly thees shuoold be-a useble-a in helff-huoor fur unyune-a brooseeng here-a, und veethuoot munooel instelleshun ruooteenes)

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...und thet iff oone-a steps beck intu ebstrected cunseedereshuns dereefed veethuoot respect tu sooch cuncerns, un understundeeng ooff zee qooeleeties ooff mooseecel uneeqooeness veell cunteenooe-a tu be-a sooppressed in fefur ooff genereleezeshuns, vheech et best ifuke-a a fegooe-a sense-a ooff vhet a peeece-a mey be-a dueeng, perheps in cummun veet sume-a oozeer peeeces, boot nut vhet oone-a peeece-a is dueeng, ell by itselff.

>>382
3. Is the process of installing compiler,copying code from /prog/, compiling and testing it cumbersome for chosen compiler/
toolkit system? (ideally this should be usable in half-hour for anyone browsing here, and without manual installation routines)

Do you realize that someone has to know the language before they code in it? If someone already knows the language, they already have it setup, or could have it setup easily if they wanted to contribute. No language can be disqualified over such trivial issues.

You can't expect someone who has never used a language to produce any good code in it.

What you should be worried about is not how many minutes it takes for someone to get a development environment setup, but how many skilled coders are there in /prog/ that know the language and are willing to contribute to your project. Do you think /prog/ is filled with programmers who know Haskell, Scheme, Lisp, Factor well enough  and are willing to contribute?

>>381
1)You want code which allocs(conses) less? Sure, you can do that. If you're so hung up about memory usage, you could make entirely cons-less code, but don't forget that modern games are very resource hungry, much more than any Lisp implementation is.
I want language which doesn't introduce any inefficiency which would be hard to get rid of.

2)You want a small executable: tree shake the image, and you can get it very small, some people have gotten small tools to be under 50-100KB. This is usually done only for deployment, it's slightly less work to just distribute compiled packages as FASL's.
Size of the game doesn't matter as long its productive code. "tree-shaken" is VM stripped of functions which aren't called by the lisp scripts. Its not a real executable: its like if one distributed firefox memory dumps inside a loader which would recreate some scripts on startup. The layers of sbcl.core seem inaccessible for programmer: its like a blackbox(as firefox.exe is inaccessible beyond its interface). Deployment is strong word: we're not an enterprise,
Game distributed as executable files(e.g. .exe), source remains on /prog/ threads and can be reviewed or copied later.


but it will be obviously slower How many times was it mentioned that functions are compiled to native code? It will be slower than C, unless you plan on optimizing everything, but this speed loss is not important except on time sensitive code, which can be optimized or even written in C if needed.
Functions which are compiled to native code? Tracemonkey compiles functions to native code as well. Its not a valid compiler tough. "even written in C" It could be written in C from the start?
 
and require runtime to be installed What runtime? Your game will need to include dll's/libraries anyway, for sound/graphics/movies/compression/... Runtimes are not installed in the user's system, they're just bundled files along with everything else. You could of course pack everything up in one executable which runs out of the box, but why do such a thing?

You confuse game files with external runtimes. Lisp bundles the VM.
I don't want to install 50 Mb .Net runtime to play minesweeper.Net. Many players as well.
These things like Java runtime,slowdown the entire system, do questionable things in the background and are resource hogs.



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The primitive mentality is a condition of the human mind, and not a stage in its historical development.

>>381
1)Yuoo vunt cude-a vheech ellucs(cunses) less? Bork Bork Bork! Soore-a, yuoo cun du thet. Bork Bork Bork! Iff yuoo're-a su hoong up ebuoot memury usege-a, yuoo cuoold meke-a inturely cuns-less cude-a, boot dun't furget thet mudern gemes ere-a fery resuoorce-a hoongry, mooch mure-a thun uny Leesp implementeshun is.
I vunt lungooege-a vheech duesn't intrudooce-a uny ineffffeeciency vheech vuoold be-a herd tu get reed ooff. Bork Bork Bork!

2)Yuoo vunt a smell ixecooteble-a: tree-a sheke-a zee imege-a, und yuoo cun get it fery smell, sume-a peuple-a hefe-a guttee smell tuuls tu be-a under 50-100KB. Bork Bork Bork! Thees is usooelly dune-a oonly fur depluyment, it's sleeghtly less vurk tu joost deestriboote-a cumpeeled peckeges es FESL's.
Seeze-a ooff zee geme-a duesn't metter es lung its prudoocteefe cude-a. Bork Bork Bork! "tree-a-shekee" is FM streepped ooff fooncshuns vheech eren't celled by zee leesp screepts. Bork Bork Bork! Its nut a reel ixecooteble-a: its leeke-a iff oone-a deestribooted fureffux memury doomps inseede-a a lueder vheech vuoold recreete-a sume-a screepts oon stertoop. Bork Bork Bork! Zee leyers ooff sbcl.cure-a seem ineccesseeble-a fur prugremmer: its leeke-a a bleckbux(es fureffux.ixe-a is ineccesseeble-a beyund its interffece-a). Bork Bork Bork! Depluyment is strung vurd: ve're-a nut un interpreese-a,
Geme-a deestribooted es ixecooteble-a feeles(i.g. Bork Bork Bork! .ixe-a), suoorce-a remeeens oon /prug/ threeds und cun be-a refeeooed oor cupeeed leter. Bork Bork Bork!


boot it veell be-a oobfeeuoosly slooer Hoo muny teemes ves it menshuned thet fooncshuns ere-a cumpeeled tu neteefe-a cude-a? Bork Bork Bork! It veell be-a slooer thun C, unless yuoo plun oon oopteemizing iferytheeng, boot thees speed luss is nut impurtunt ixcept oon teeme-a senseetife-a cude-a, vheech cun be-a oopteemized oor ifee vreettee in C iff needed.
Fooncshuns vheech ere-a cumpeeled tu neteefe-a cude-a? Bork Bork Bork! Trecemunkey cumpeeles fooncshuns tu neteefe-a cude-a es vell. Bork Bork Bork! Its nut a feleed cumpeeler tuoogh. Bork Bork Bork! "ifee vreettee in C" It cuoold be-a vreettee in C frum zee stert? Bork Bork Bork!
 
und reqooure-a roonteeme-a tu be-a instelled Vhet roonteeme-a? Bork Bork Bork! Yuoor geme-a veell need tu incloode-a dll's/leebreries unyvey, fur suoond/grepheecs/mufeees/cumpresseeun/... Bork Bork Bork! Roonteemes ere-a nut instelled in zee user's system, zeey're-a joost boondled feeles elung veet iferytheeng ilse-a. Bork Bork Bork! Yuoo cuoold ooff cuoorse-a peck iferytheeng up in oone-a ixecooteble-a vheech roons oooot ooff zee bux, boot vhy du sooch a theeng?

Yuoo cunffoose-a geme-a feeles veet ixternel roonteemes. Bork Bork Bork! Leesp boondles zee FM. Bork Bork Bork!
I dun't vunt tu instell 50 Mb .Net roonteeme-a tu pley meenesveeper.Net. Bork Bork Bork! Muny pleyers es vell. Bork Bork Bork!
Zeese-a theengs leeke-a Jefa roonteeme-a,sloodoon zee inture-a system, du qooesshuneble-a theengs in zee beckgruoond und ere-a resuoorce-a hugs. Bork Bork Bork!



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http://xs141.xs.to/xs141/09303/av992393.jpg
Zee preemitife-a menteleety is a cundeeshun ooff zee hoomun meend, und nut a stege-a in its heesturicel defelupment.

>>384
"Do you think /prog/ is filled with programmers who know Haskell, Scheme, Lisp, Factor well enough  and are willing to contribute?" Actually not. That a weak point of languages.
 The premise is if the language is easy to learn and setup, someone with minimal skills and desire to learn the language could start contributing in the project(in the least helping to debug and test the code).
The ideal language would be fast and easy to develop in, but i'll have to settle with C as >>364 suggested if no alternatives develop.



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A State is absolute in the sense which I have in mind when it claims the right to a monopoly of all the force within the community, to make war, to make peace, to conscript life, to tax, to establish and dis-establish property, to define crime, to punish disobedience, to control education, to supervise the family, to regulate personal habits, and to censor opinions. The modern State claims all of these powers, and, in the matter of theory, there is no real difference in the size of the claim between communists, fascists, and democrats.

>>384
"Du yuoo theenk /prug/ is feelled veet prugremmers vhu knoo Heskell, Scheme-a, Leesp, Fectur vell inuoogh  und ere-a veelling tu cuntreeboote-a?" Ectooelly nut. Bork Bork Bork! Thet a veek pueent ooff lungooeges. Bork Bork Bork!
 Zee premeese-a is iff zee lungooege-a is iesy tu leern und setoop, sumeune-a veet meenimel skeells und desure-a tu leern zee lungooege-a cuoold stert cuntreebooting in zee pruject(in zee leest helpeeng tu deboog und test zee cude-a). Bork Bork Bork!
Zee ideel lungooege-a vuoold be-a fest und iesy tu defelup in, boot i'll hefe-a tu settle-a veet C es >>364 sooggested iff nu elterneteefes defelup. Bork Bork Bork!



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A Stete-a is ebsuloote-a in zee sense-a vheech I hefe-a in meend vhee it cleeems zee reeght tu a munupuly ooff ell zee furce-a veethin zee cummooneety, tu meke-a ver, tu meke-a peece-a, tu cunscreept leeffe-a, tu tex, tu istebleesh und dees-istebleesh pruperty, tu deffeene-a creeme-a, tu pooneesh deesubedience-a, tu cuntrul idooceshun, tu sooperfeese-a zee femeely, tu regoolete-a persunel hebeets, und tu censur oopeeniuns. Bork Bork Bork! Zee mudern Stete-a cleeems ell ooff zeese-a pooers, und, in zee metter ooff zeeury, zeere-a is nu reel deefffference-a in zee seeze-a ooff zee cleeem betveee cummooneests, fesceests, und demucrets.

>>385
I want language which doesn't introduce any inefficiency which would be hard to get rid of.
Code in C then.
The whole point of Lisp is that you can prototype rapidly then optimize later. C doesn't give you this option, you'll have to work an year or two on it, before you get a good working prototype.
The layers of sbcl.core seem inaccessible for programmer: its like a blackbox(as firefox.exe is inaccessible beyond its interface).
Completely wrong, you can access EVERYTHING in sbcl.core, you can inspect every detail in it, modify it, redefine it, whatever. You don't seem to know much about Lisp and its implementation. Get a good Lisp book, read it, then try saying the same again.
Tracemonkey compiles functions to native code as well.
Tracemonkey is tied to the environment, you could probably make a compiler out of it with some effort, but it's not the case right now.

You confuse game files with external runtimes. Lisp bundles the VM.
There is no VM.
It's just an image with compiled functions. An image which you can change as you wish. If you tree shake it and get a 2MB core for your game (in the end), it will contain both parts of the  lisp implementation and the game. Do you know that for compiled C code, LIBC is linked into the executable? If you don't like it, you load the external runtimes provided by the OS, or required to be installed by the user, a lot of games do this. Some C compilers remove unused parts of libraries to reduce code size when statically linking, this is the same idea as tree shaking.


I don't want to install 50 Mb .Net runtime to play minesweeper.Net. Many players as well.
Again, you don't install anything, it's just a static module containg the functions of your game and the implementation's library.

These things like Java runtime,slowdown the entire system, do questionable things in the background and are resource hogs.
NO exernal processes are ran, no entries are added to the registry, no files are added to your windows\* windows\system32\* or anyplace else than the game directory.

Please learn more about how OSes work and how Lisp implementations work, I'm getting tired about arguing about trivial, mostly well-known matters.

IHBT

You know, I always see this "FrozenVoids" lips flapping like a moron! Must have quite a big mouth, big lips to I presume! Just the right size for cock sucking, am I right FrozenVoid! Were do you live FrozenVoid!

>>390
Shut your anus, you don't belong on this board.

>>391
I think I like anus better than !

making a forum dedicated to this topic is a lot better than posting in /prog/, or some sort of IRC chatroom

>>289 ". C doesn't give you this option, you'll have to work an year or two on it, before you get a good working prototype." Project has no deadlines.
"you can access EVERYTHING in sbcl.core" No you can access only functions from its interface(or more accurately remove functions from the VM).
 

"Do you know that for compiled C code, LIBC is linked into the executable?"
LIBC isn't a runtime. Its library bundled with operating system. Its always installed.
"Some C compilers remove unused parts of libraries to reduce code size when statically linking, this is the same idea as tree shaking." Tree-Shaking is done on base of the VM, not on base of program.
 A C program does straightforward thing:It start executing code,loading variables.
Lisp would have to: setup its VM and load the "worldscript" image,then run the image.

Anyway, if you can use SBCL to work by scheme in >>323
and willing to explain how its done, it will be accepted again for consideration.
 

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Behind every failure is an opportunity somebody wishes they had missed.

>>289 ". Bork Bork Bork! C duesn't geefe-a yuoo thees oopshun, yuoo'll hefe-a tu vurk un yeer oor tvu oon it, beffure-a yuoo get a guud vurkeeng prututype-a." Pruject hes nu deedleenes. Bork Bork Bork!
"yuoo cun eccess IFERYTHING in sbcl.cure-a" Nu yuoo cun eccess oonly fooncshuns frum its interffece-a(oor mure-a eccooretely remufe-a fooncshuns frum zee FM). Bork Bork Bork!
 

"Du yuoo knoo thet fur cumpeeled C cude-a, LIBC is leenked intu zee ixecooteble-a?"
LIBC isn't a roonteeme-a. Bork Bork Bork! Its leebrery boondled veet oopereteeng system. Bork Bork Bork! Its elveys instelled. Bork Bork Bork!
"Sume-a C cumpeelers remufe-a unoosed perts ooff leebreries tu redooce-a cude-a seeze-a vhee steteecelly leenking, thees is zee seme-a idea es tree-a shekeeng." Tree-a-Shekeeng is dune-a oon bese-a ooff zee FM, nut oon bese-a ooff prugrem. Bork Bork Bork!
 A C prugrem dues streeeghtffurverd theeng:It stert ixecooteeng cude-a,luedeeng fereeebles. Bork Bork Bork!
Leesp vuoold hefe-a tu: setoop its FM und lued zee "vurldscreept" imege-a,zeen roon zee imege-a. Bork Bork Bork!

Unyvey, iff yuoo cun use-a SBCL tu vurk by scheme-a in >>323
und veelling tu ixpleeen hoo its dune-a, it veell be-a eccepted egeeen fur cunseedereshun. Bork Bork Bork!
 

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Beheend ifery feeeloore-a is un ooppurtooneety sumebudy veeshes zeey hed meessed.

>>392
That's pretty sad, Mr. Anus isn't even a good troll! How could you like(or hate) him more than  !

>>393 i generally dislike managing forums(i prefer blogs),but when project reaches stage #5-#6 i'll consider that(depending on the volume of contributions).  This /prog/ thread is sufficient right now.



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There's nothing in the world so demoralizing as money.

>>393 i generelly deeslike-a munegeeng furooms(i preffer blugs),boot vhee pruject reeches stege-a #5-#6 i'll cunseeder thet(dependeeng oon zee fuloome-a ooff cuntreebooshuns).  Thees /prug/ threed is sooffffeecient reeght noo. Bork Bork Bork!



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Zeere's nutheeng in zee vurld su demureleezing es muney.

>>394
Every time you open your mouth, it's only to say something stupid and to make me hate you more. What a fucking moron.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-time_system

Haskell binaries are like 10 MB large, for a HELLO WORLD program !!

Also the compiler and shit is 0.6 GB !!