Lets face it, public schools are made of total fail, and we spend more on education than the entire budgets of some countries. Lets stop the massive fail and get some real solutions like Educational Freedom/School Choice.
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Anonymous2008-03-20 4:18
The reason why most American school are kinda bad compare to other schools is pretty easy to see. Its goverment run and funded.
Comparing to other school in other countries is because
1.like business, there is competation and rep they must up hold
2. other countries, YOU HAVE TO PAY YOU EDUCATION.
3. Entrance exams
4. USA Education has a General idea.
5. American tend to lower the bar due to comfort levels.
6. USA kids dont take advantage of the free education that they are taking for granted.
But AMerican schools have a freedom to express their ideals. just that its not well enforced to open-ideals and becoming like a brain-washing ideal. Its really up to the desire of each person.
that doesn't stop a kid from going to a hight rep school.
This is really closing the gap of less-educated to the higher educated people. ITs a big difference who makes what money. also
to the countries future.
I went to an excellent public high school. The way to fix it is not to privatize the whole thing; I think the private sector should stay, mostly, out of basic needs.
What needs to be done is to emulate the systems they have elsewhere around the world. I attended a public school with the IB program, and was forced to compete with students globally. Right now, there's a huge fuckin' host of problems, from teacher pay and training, to facilities, to the retarded, retarded textbooks we use.
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Anonymous2008-03-21 11:29
I went to an excellent public high school. The way to fix it is not to privatize the whole thing; I think the private sector should stay, mostly, out of basic needs.
What needs to be done is to emulate the systems they have elsewhere around the world. I attended a public school with the IB program, and was forced to compete with students globally. Right now, there's a huge fuckin' host of problems, from teacher pay and training, to facilities, to the retarded, retarded textbooks we use.
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Anonymous2008-03-21 11:36
-Teacher's Union: Get rid of it.
-Problematic students should be removed from public education. They're a HUGE distraction for students who are trying to do well. It would cost a lot to set them up with special help, but in the long run everyone would be better for it.
-Better health/physical education. Not just some half-assed gym class. Kids should be getting a lot of exercise AND they need to be taught how to take care of their bodies.
In New Zealand, children over 6 and under 16 must attend school by law. This sucks because children who want to learn are stopped by children who just annoy.
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Anonymous2008-03-24 2:25
Off topic but I inferred from Obama's speech that suburban white families are forced to have their kids bussed to inner city negro schools? Is this true?
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Anonymous2008-03-24 5:51
lol @ those smug white Belgian kids talking to the reporters in their second language. Enjoy your black and brown people dragging you down America.
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Anonymous2008-03-26 15:44
What we need is Educational Freedom/School Choice. If someone is going to a failing public school they should have the freedom to go to a private school at the government's expense. The idea behind this is that then schools will need to COMPETE for students like they don't have to now, and then they will actually be accountable and have an incentive to produce a better result.
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Anonymous2008-03-26 17:12
>>10
Yep. In an effort to create "diversity" white kids are being bussed to more "urban" schools, and minorities are being bussed into suburban schools so they have an equal chance at fucking everything up in a school that has more money.
Little does anyone realize:
-It's a HUGE inconvenience for all families involved
-Schools with more money =/= better education
-Kids being sent to urban schools are going to be hurt a lot and kids being sent to suburban schools aren't going to do much better if they aren't dragging everyone else down. Everyone loses.
-Next generation of voters will be dumber than the last. Carrot Top will be a president within 3 decades.
>Schools with more money =/= better education
Institut Le Rosey, lol
but yeah, merkins have unsalvageable education.
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Anonymous2008-03-26 20:40
The reason why America's educational system is flawed is because we continue to pursue flawed policies. I would put the teachers' unions very high on the list of causes for why education is such a sinkhole for funding.
I would also attribute a large amount of the failures to people being stupid. There are many stupid people in the nation, quite simply. There isn't much we can do about stupid people, so we may as well stop stealing tax payers (read, smart people)'s money and funneling it into the school system. Tie for the government, state and federal, to own up to their bungling of the educational system.
>>13
Also, the "diversity" stuff is completely irrational and anti-market. Market forces should be one of the most important things we take into account when we make decisions, and the government shouldn't interfere with how people have chosen to situate themselves (ie, prosperous people largely fleeing from "colored" urban centers.)
Finally, choosing to live in different areas may be construed as racist or discriminatory, but no amount of legislation or appeals to white guilt will ever force the general public to deal with the idiocy of big city government. In short, blame the idiots down at town hall or the State House for messing up the educational system.
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Anonymous of College Park,MD2008-03-26 20:45
It is not the proper role of government to give welfare. That is my answer for all such questions. The government is often ineffective at giving aid, so thus they shouldn't do it.
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Anonymous2008-03-27 12:04
>EJUKASHON IZ ANTI MARKET HURRR DURRRR
Ahh, retarded Americans. They think having more of what makes their education system fail will actually improve it. I wonder how you would react if you knew anything about the Finnish education system - butthurt denial, maybe?
>>21
Public funding should also be connected to public control of the thing being funded. That just doesn't happen in the USA. Here, we're expected to pony up more and more taxes for failing schools, but the instant we start demanding change and accountability for all this horrible mis-spending and failure, we're locked out of school board meetings and hounded by the media (who take in a lot of school advertising -- coincidentally, I'm sure!).
The public schools in the USA are such appalling failures that PRIVATIZING them is the rational thing to do at this point. The entrenched unions that control those school districts won't allow us to do anything else ... so we must OUTFLANK them.
>>21
No, I'm saying public schools are doing poorly because they don't need to compete. A school voucher system that would force schools to compete and work harder for students would help alleviate this problem.
There is little or no competitive pressure currently placed on most of America's schools so far, and the only times voucher programs have been implemented have seen positive results. Doesn't it seem reasonable that we experiment with a voucher system for a little bit? We've given the teacher unions and the libfags like 50 years to fuck up our education system now... and we spend an utterly obnoxious amount of money on education for the shoddy product/service we receive. The only reasonable thing to do at this point is to implement this reasonable change.
COMMON LIBFAGS, I KNOW YOU GET ALL HORNY OVER THE WORD "CHANGE," SO LETS "CHANGE" THE EDUCATION SYSTEM...
>>27
Yes, but when the Liberals say "change", it's only to get a Blackman into the Presidency. They still want to keep the schools integrated and under the thumb of the Liberals.
Real change can take place when people have their own liberty and naturally choose to congregate with their own people. Normal people will leave the public-school system, and the Blackmen will remain in it.
HÖÖÖÖRRRRRR DÖÖÖÖÖRRRRRRRRR LUK AT US, VEE ARE STUPID AMERIKANS, ACSHUALLY VEE ARE SO RETARDED VEE THINK PRIVATIZING PUBLIC SCHOOLS VILL IMPROVE EDUCATION AND VEE CRY ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE EVEN IN COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT SUBJECTS HÖRRRRRRRR
>>29
Well, continuing to throw money (taken from normal folks) at Blackmen in run-down public schools isn't working either. Education will be improved by each sector of the population seeking their own level. The normal folks will get education from private sources, which are of high quality. Blackmen will get their education from the public schools, which have been as devolved as they are, hence meeting their low level of performance.
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Anonymous2008-03-31 14:26
>>30
I think one post exposing your retardation and butthurt feelings was enough, but thanks anyway for this repetition.
>>31
It's still true that the Blackmen were not suitably challenged and uplifted by the involvement of overfunding the public schools. Retardation is best left as a useful description of the Blackmen in the public schools. There's no rational reason why money taken from use normal folks should be used to support a culture of mental retardation. That's why we have near-condemned buildings, meat and milk past the expiration date, and a lack of city services in areas frequented by the Blackman. The shoe does seem to fit, so it must be worn. I really can't make this any clearer.
>>33
There's nothing wrong with my spelling and grammar. You must have confused me with a Blackman.
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Anonymous2008-04-01 14:37
>>34
Your ironic exposure of your idiocy and repetition of BLACKMAN BLACKMAN HURRR actually leads me to believe that you're a troll, and not actually a genuine butthurt retard, but for overall effor however you do deserve a 6/10
What's too obvious is that American schools fucking suck.
Really, you should let your failures FAIL. None of this No Child Left Behind bullshit. If the retards and morons can't keep up then leave them behind so they aren't slowing everyone else down.
Don't be too quick to dismiss the NCLB Act. It demanded that school systems improve or lose funding. Predictably, the unionized labor that infects the public schools complained that the Act came along with no funding to get it done. That's funny, since the Act says "improve or lose funding or close" ... so where do these Union Goons think money is needed for? That reaction shows everything that's primarily wrong with the public schools in the US -- they won't do their jobs and only want more money no matter what happens.
The NCLB Act is not enough, since by now the public school system in the USA would have been dismantled due to its horrid performance. The urban schools themselves should have been privatized summarily.
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Anonymous2008-04-03 13:20
>>41
no private schools here are actually pretty good, and some of the universities in the U.S. are the best in the world.
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Anonymous2008-04-03 17:09
>>43
There are some very good universities in the U.S. I'll give you that.
But failure IS and option in universities and last I checked they do screen all prospective students and only allow non-retarded ones in. It's the idiots that are allowed to advance through school despite demonstrating that they're unwilling to learn and adament about preventing anyone else from learning as well.
Hold students back if they're learning too slowly, segregate them if they have some sort of underlying issue that keeps them from learning in a normal class, or kick them out if they simply think being smart is "uncool".
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Anonymous2008-04-03 22:21
>>44
Yeah i can agree with that
i remember when i was still in highschool some of the people I knew were actually illiterate, Don't know how they managed to get past elementary but they did.
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Anonymous2008-04-04 1:51
>>44 >>45
The trouble is the majority of students are like this until college when students finally have the choice to go to a college/university/community college, a slacker's college or start work. If they were all punished like that there would be too many BAAAWWing parents to deal with. Incompetent parents make up the majority and they want to force their fuck up kids on the sane kids, this is a democracy ergo state education will go right ahead and comply with their demands. Libfags whine about homeschooling and bible camps, but they provide a better education than their socialist utopia faggotry could ever hope for.
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Anonymous2008-04-12 0:15
>>46
So true. And how the hell are we going to compete with China when we have libfags and teacher's unions ensuring we have a subpar education system?
>>47
This retard clearly is a product of the failed American education system. See >>18
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Anonymous2008-04-12 7:31
>>47
Clearly what is required is a more authoritarian anti-democratic regime that recognises that minorities do not just include whining ethnic minorities but the minority rich and religious cliques that do not want to have to support the rest of the country. This is America, the land of the free, it is time to end the tyranny of the majority.
>>50
Everything I have said is 100% correct. Sorry your most heartfelt ideals were all bullshit.
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Anonymous2008-04-12 14:37
>>51
Of course, when you proclaim your bullshit is correct, it is correct. Enjoy your AMERIKAH LAND OF DA FREEE HURR DURRRR
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Anonymous2008-04-12 15:20
FUCK AMERICA. I'M SICK OF IGNORANT FAGS I WENT TO SCHOOL WITH GOING OFF TO COLLEGES AND "BECOMING SOMEONE" WHILE I GET SHIT ON. I KNOW WAY MORE THAN THEM.
>>52
Sorry but there comes a point where plebs can't make the right decisions and democracy must be limited, our policies concerning education at least are well beyond this point with shitty parents from the projects forcing their fuck up kids on the sane kids and dragging down the best and brightest this country has to offer. We need more seperations and divisions.
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Anonymous2008-04-12 16:48
HURRR DURR AMERIKAN DRIIIM HURRRR I'M A COMPLETE RETARD WITH NO EDUCATION BUT I'LL KEEP THINKING I AM SOMEONE, FUCKING EUROFAGS ARE JUST JEALOUS DURRRR
I have discovered an amazing site. Turn the volume for your computer ON, and go to http://blocked.on.nimp.org with Internet Explorer. After going there with Internet Explorer, go there with Mozilla Firefox.
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Ubernostrom2008-04-18 19:00
I find it fairly remarkable that after 60 posts nobody once has brought up the topic of parents and their responsibility in this matter. I come from a household of teachers, and while I this obviously biases me, a few notions:
-Teachers unions are shit, and not just because they call for more money or cover for bad teachers. These unions toss money to whichever arbitrary candidates promise them the most, allow school administrators huge bonuses in order to recieve 1.5% raises, and generally do not represent the best solutions.
-If the parent is fucked, the child is generally fucked as well. Entirely too many children are shuffled to school as a form of free daycare so that their parents can work to support their over-budget lifestyle; my sister works in the poorest area of town here, yet more than half of her student's parents own Escalades or oversized Chevy's they probably can't afford. There is no personal responsibility brought to bear on these fools, because their highschool-dropout asses still managed to register to vote when they got their driver's licenses.
-NCLB does not work the way it is supposed to. It can ferret out bad teachers, but still punishes good teachers with bad students. Running with my previous point, most of the students my sister teaches have no support at home to read or write, much less even know English if they're Hispanic. If we have strict standards that must be met, virtually all classtime can be spent making up for the neglect the children get at home, which overwhelms bad teachers and points them out, but drags down competant ones as well.
- When we as a society spend more money on prisons than education, we as a society have fucked up and need to actually adress the real causes instead of making blanket statements.
- Bad teachers exist, much like bad priests, bad politicians, bad unions, and bad trolls. So, what the fuck are YOU going to do about any of this? Bitch and feel superior?
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Anonymous2008-04-19 0:50
"-If the parent is fucked, the child is generally fucked as well. Entirely too many children are shuffled to school as a form of free daycare so that their parents can work to support their over-budget lifestyle; my sister works in the poorest area of town here, yet more than half of her student's parents own Escalades or oversized Chevy's they probably can't afford. There is no personal responsibility brought to bear on these fools, because their highschool-dropout asses still managed to register to vote when they got their driver's licenses."
They're future recipients of government democrats and loyal democrat voters.
"most of the students my sister teaches have no support at home to read or write, much less even know English if they're Hispanic."
Guess liberals should quit calling conservatives racist and shut the damn border.
"- Bad teachers exist, much like bad priests, bad politicians, bad unions, and bad trolls. So, what the fuck are YOU going to do about any of this? Bitch and feel superior?"
I'm going to support candidates who will support common sense laws that expand educational freedom and allow families to send their kids to the school of their choice so they can leave failing school systems and send their children to get a quality education from COMPETENT teachers at a private school.
"- When we as a society spend more money on prisons than education, we as a society have fucked up and need to actually adress the real causes instead of making blanket statements."
The problem isn't the amount of MONEY that is spent on education. We already spend WAY too much money on education. See >>1.
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Anonymous2008-04-19 1:48
They're future recipients of government HANDOUTS*** (I meant to say) democrats and loyal democrat voters.
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Ubernostrom2008-04-19 2:25
I agree with a good portion of what you say, except the idea of being able to shuffle children from school to school, preferably to private schools. Assuming that is brought to (what I see) its inevitable end, poorer children and minorities still get left behind to suffer at failing institutions, which doesn't solve the problem so much as subvert it from those rich enough to avoid it.
I'd ideally like to see the money given to schools be audited randomly, administrators have their salaries capped, relax curriculum while offering more after-school options, have forcible mainstreaming classes for foriegn students, punish negligent parents (perhaps by denying them tax breaks), remove the retarded from regular class, blacklist incompetant and cheating teachers, and place education and rehabilitation back into prisons instead of making more prisons.
Honestly, parents and teachers both need to be brought to task, and for the system itself to learn what works from other places and integrate it. The first step would be for people at large to actually get angry at the way things are run and actually elect competant people into office, which is difficult when people are so easily placated by tax breaks, fearmongering, and consumerism. Sort of a cruel feedback loop, is it not?
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Anonymous2008-04-19 3:18
School choice is the only solution to the massive fail of non-competitive government schools. Beyond that, what can you do about urban areas being full of people who are shitty parents? HINT: its this bullshit 'hip-hop' culture that doesn't value education. We need more cultural CONSERVATISM in America.
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Ubernostrom2008-04-19 4:17
The idea of school vouchers gets tossed around a bit from time to time to encourage schools, whether it works or not seems subject to change dependant on who is funding the study and what agenda they have. Unless convinced otherwards, I really do not trust the advantages of competitive schools; truly shitty parents likely wouldn't take advantage of the better schools, which leads me to think that we should simply cut out the middle man and send them to trade school or jail.
As it stands, I think it would be quite nice to punish parents who waste money on uncessesary excess by denying them tax breaks on their dependants, and placing the funds into a saving account to distribute scholarships to children who fail less. The biggest hurdle to that is that given the recession from the housing boom, the tax breaks are meant to keep people buying new HDTV's, not books for their bastards.
I quite agree we need to be more culturally conservative: parents should be parents, not their kids' friends, bad parents should be shamed as such, bad children should not be excused or coddled, and we need less easy outs via blaming the system or circumstance.
This thread is proof that American public schooling sucks. I mean, look at the "solutions" you retards, who clearly were out of them, formulated. A good example is >>66
The entire public school system is based upon the idea that a teacher is punished by having students that need instruction, and is rewarded by having students that are self-actualized. In other words, the system runs on the idea that effort is bad. THAT is why it all needs to be privatized.
In the private sector, when work needs to get done, you fucking do it or you're fired. In the union-coddled public-school sector, teachers flee needed work constantly, and then expect to get great benefits packages and steady COLAs. So, no wonder the public schools produce shit!
>>69
I've reread that first statement four times and I've yet to find a glimmer of reason or realistic thought. Explain yourself.
Perhaps I've been raised much differently than you; I've somehow found that the public school system is strangely based on the idea of having teachers teach and students learn. The government throws money to it on the basis that an educated populace is a more productive one, and the unwashed masses can get at it practically for free. If the students going into this system have deficiencies, even the best teachers will struggle to educate them, if they even can.
Honestly, perhaps privatizing 6-12th grade might be a solution, but the main impact happens by the time these little bastards turn 10. Saying to privatize all public school seems fairly tantamount to saying "Screw the poor kids, the urban kids, and immigrant kids. If they wanted good education in this life they should have chosen richer parents."
>>70
The USA. You lose. What, you think that the failed model of the US's collapsed public-school system is somehow going to be fixed by implementing more of the same? How many more billions have to be wasted on a do-nothing to do-little class of entitled shits like city teachers, before you finally admit that money can't fix it, and in fact money is exactly the problem?
The problem in the USA is horribly apparent. The public nature of the school systems is at fault. The public obviously doesn't want to fix it, and prefers to ignore it, and pay taxes to just forget about it ... while sending their own kids to PRIVATE SCHOOLS all the while this goes on. It's a travesty, and it's doubly expensive. OBVIOUSLY, the thing to do is progressively scrap the system and start over, from private organizations that can use the efficiency of the profit motive to achieve at least the same results for a much cheaper cost. I mean, you can ONLY and SANELY agree that the same result for less cost is the first goal? OR are you a tax-and-spend Liberal piece of fucking city shit?
>>71
I did explain myself. You just can't accept the cold logic that determines that result from the facts as they stand. Re-reading only shows that YOU have suffered from the same failure of your school system to (1) educate you, and most importantly (2) train you to accept facts and conclusions despite your partisan feelings otherwise.
The sad facts of the matter are as I described. Through Democrat and Liberal administrations ruling urban areas, unionized teachers have progressively destroyed this "teaching" thing they used to do, and have accepted a modified and bullshit-covered form of BABYSITTING.
The further sad fact of the matter is that the more failing school systems are, the more expensive they are, and that just creates a political cushion of cronies around them, which forms a protective barrier. THAT is the bullshit that needs to be militantly changed. Hence, privatization. Privatization is efficient ... and that's what's missing from the system: The effectiveness that follows from efficiency.
You have to accept these sad facts, before you end up taxing yourself to death to provide for a teacher class that works 4 hours a day, 4 days a week, for 6 months out of the year, to largely babysit pre-criminals. Those teachers will become your middle class, while you will just be the working poor, and those pre-criminals will turn into literal, ravaging hordes of real criminals, who will vandalize and rape your life while you work yourself to death for privileged classes that don't earn their pay.
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Anonymous2008-04-20 5:02
>>73
Your ability to dispense illogical and unreasonable thought while at the same time brushing off any notions to the contrary is almost staggering. You truly belong here, if more cogent people were around more to shout you down from your perch you'd lose interest and the world at large would have to suffer your vitriol.
Your appeals are in the right place, liberal coddling of impoverished areas to guarantee votes has strip-mined what little responsibility left to parents and teachers, the feedback loop of pouring more money into these schools while generally expecting less, and the role of many teachers as glorified babysitters. Fine, I agree to those problems, and also believe that they should be fixed. Your solution, however, is terribly narrow and unworkable in the long term.
You clamor that private schools are inherently more efficient, but why wouldn't they be at this point? Mostly, these privileged classes who do not earn their pay are the customers for this service; they already have invested in their children to succeed, have the options available to shop around for the best school, and one infers, have provided these children with the groundwork to actually learn. It is quite easy to be efficient and effective when you can lure away the best teachers from public institutions and simply replace them when they disappoint.
Honestly, take your solution to its natural end. Private schools now are in direct competition for the most qualified and effective teachers, and students are in direct competition for the best private schools. Those students whose families cannot afford this have to settle for the lower-end opportunities, and the poorest still would have to make do with whatever stripped down public school system still available, if they even pursue an education. Why should they, if their available options still end with untrained labor? Go a step further, what private organization would even bother to open a school in a urban area filled with, as you say, pre-criminals? What profit is to be made in it, unless it travels to absurdity and your education is simply brought to you by Pepsi Co.?
If I am asked to accept cold logic, wouldn't the most logical path be to repeal 100 years of child-labor laws, strap these wastrel children next to their parents in a textile factory/prison along with their teachers and union reps? Could we throw in those bleeding-hearts too? Or wouldn't it be more reasonable to try and punish the parents for their terrible parenting, force the government to tell us where our taxes are going, offer the best education we can to as many as are willing to better themselves, and have someone in this godforsaken country hold a mirror to it?
Congratulations on not understanding a very simple and unfortunately irrefutable example due to your butthurt reactionary delusions. Privatization fucks up your schools, not the contrary, however you may proceed with ignoring the facts because you never leave your basement and don't know shit about the rest of the planet.
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Anonymous2008-04-20 12:19
The problem with American schools is the niggers. Their average IQ is around 75 and the government and educational establishment collude to dumb down the curriculum in order to minimize the inevitable differences in performance between apes and humans.
If you are white, the public schools, the NEA, and the government are out to do a "Harrison Bergeron" on your ass, just to keep the niggers from noticing that you're brighter than they are.
This is VERY true. Isn't it sad we ridicule creationists who are homeschooled yet they constantly score higher on standardized tests then public schoolers?
The US public school system is broken and needs to be redone in a less unaccountable, lack of choice type of way.
The good thing with vouchers is the money goes with the student meaning poor kids can go to private school, you can go to the rich people's public school instead of the ghetto one, if your retarded it pays for a tutor or a retard school.
Good schools grow and bad schools are absorbed by the good schools aand fixed.
>>80
And market forces like competition will gradually improve the quality of the education that children receive, unlike in this shitty government school monopoly we have right now that the leftists/democrats/teacher's unions have foisted on the public now.
>>82
You're wasting your time explaining that. The schoolfags here will never admit their unionized and government-coddled educational elite are at fault for the singular mega FAIL that is public education today. Since they will never hear what you're saying, it's long since time to stop talking and start acting. Take your own kids out of their Liberal-destroyed school system and find alternatives for educating them. Leave the Liberals to scream even more shrilly in the great emptiness of their collapsing fund models.
The time for discussing this matter is over. Competition is here regardless of what the schoolfags think.
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Anonymous2008-04-23 3:13
>>83
The liberals seem to be wanting to make that harder and harder. Look at that court decision out of California - no homeschooling without a license or whatever. Fucking liberal fascists.
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Anonymous2008-04-23 5:30
LIBRAL FASCISTS, I WANT KOMPETISHUON IN MAH SKOOLZ EVEN THOUGH THE BEST PROVEN SCHOOL SYSTEMS IN THE WORLD DON'T WORK LIKE THAT AND I CAN'T GET IT THROUGH MY THICK SKULL
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Anonymous2008-04-23 12:22
lol retarded americans are still at it
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Anonymous2008-04-23 13:29
>>86
NO WE'RE NOT!! WE ARE NOT STILL AT IT!! WE ARE AT SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT NOW!!
>>84
That's why we derisively call it the People's Socialist Republic of California.
>>85
The public schools in the nation refuse to be fixed and are only insisting on being very well paid for it. That's the real issue that you're ignoring. It's not about following other models from across the world. It's about fixing ours, no matter what. I bet that all those other models DON'T tolerate the extreme levels of FAIL which fill American schools. American public schools test out poorly in comparison to the rest of the civilized world.
Since they have a monopoly and that monopoly refuses to let itself be fixed, there's no model that can be applied except the one for COMPETITION. Deal with it, Mr. Apologist.
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Anonymous2008-04-23 16:20
>>88
More denial, more crying. Keep up the good work, cocksucker. Do it the AMERIKAHN WAY and do the polar opposite of the proven working system. This is the same bullshit retarded libertarian kids try to justify with your aids-ridden healthcare system. You may keep crying, but it doesn't change the fact that your mixed system which heavily contains KOMPETISHON is utterly raped by the functioning socialized systems of Western Europe, yet instead of complete socialization, somehow your minds which were shaped by that pathetic excuse for schooling suggest the opposite.
Also, apologist? You have a knack for producing tragic irony...
>>89
You're in denial, yourself. If a European type of system can succeed IN AMERICA, then competition will provide a version of it that works.
BUT ... keeping the same, overpaid, unionized, political-crony, public-school system is no longer an option. People are making their choices, and when they can afford to, they flee such a system with great speed. The problem isn't that your beloved European system isn't being adopted. The problem is that the public schools in America just SUCK.
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Anonymous2008-04-24 4:27
>>90
Oh, of course AMERIKA is in another planet, inhabited by Homo Retardicus like yourself, therefore any proven system will not work, and the opposite of the functioning system should be tried defying all logic and sense, because that is the AMERIKAHN WAY, right? I said that in the preceding post, why did you feel the need to repeat your incessant whining?
What's wrong with competition? What is wrong with accountability?
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Anonymous2008-04-24 11:17
Privatise everything.
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Anonymous2008-04-24 12:08
>>93 >>94
More products of the retard-oriented American public schooling system.
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Anonymous2008-04-24 12:23
>>95
My uncle on my mother's side, my dad and his brother, my grandfather and 2 of my cousins have networths in the top 1%. Can you blame me for following in their foot steps?
>>104
You started with "HURRR DURR PROOV ME RONG" bullshit with no factual basis, so actually it was your turn to back your delusions up (which, of course, is not possible) from the beginning, butthurt retard.
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Anonymous2008-04-26 8:22
>>96
Yet you spend your time on 4chan /newpol/, of course...
Did I say "fucking americans" before in this thread?
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Anonymous2008-04-26 21:32
>>105
Actually it began with my statement that we should privatise the school system. This cannot be proven wrong since it is correct, I guess that's why you're crying.
>>108
This is how retarded libertarians think. WE SHUD PRIVATIZE DA SKOOL SISTEM AND YOU KANT PROOV ME RONG BEKUZ IT IZ KORREKT, CONTRADICTING EVIDENCE IS IRRELEVANT BECAUSE MY BRAIN DOES NOT DEAL WITH INFORMATION, ONLY WHAT MY MASTERS TELL ME
I'm glad I live in finland with the proven best education system, which doesn't churn out epically retarded organisms like this retard.
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Anonymous2008-04-28 2:09
>>109
If it is so easy to disprove you should be able to disprove it.
The problem with the "Finland Fellator" posting here is that Finland's model can't be exported to the USA. The problem is that in the USA, teachers and administrators in the public school system just won't educate children. The teachers and administrators just like to collect their paychecks and benefits off the sweat rolling off the ballsacks of the taxpayers. They aren't held to any rational standard of evaluation, since children are rolling off their production line in various states of being unable to read, calculate and overall THINK in any critical fashion.
Since the public school system in the USA is definably broken while still operating on a daily basis, the only sensible and sane answer is to force it to compete. If we open the school systems to competitive bidding, then the paycheck-collectors currently staffing the public schools will at least have to accept lower compensation. After all, if the children won't be educated by these worthless professionals, then we may as well just have this mis-education happen for a lower cost.
Now, let's hear more of:
DERP DERP DERP FINLAND DERP DERP DERP MODEL DERP DERP DERP
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Anonymous2008-04-28 12:43
No one wants to be held accountable for being a shitty teacher/parent. Back in the day if you were a shitty parent your kids will either choose not to support you when you are old or be too poor to do so and if you were a shitty teacher you would only be able to find work as an agricultural labourer, jacking off pigs and harvesting potatoes 14 hours a day. We need to restore these traditional values.
>>112
So, you retards fail because they only want money, yet privatization is going to fix it by magically reverting their attention back to education, even though now they're explicitly fucking for money.
I know you Americans are generally retarded, but seriously, it isn't opposite land, I'm sure with some effort even your thick skulls could accommodate a proven and working system. Unfortunately however, the current generation who was churned out of the failsystem clearly don't have the capability to make sound judgments, if retards like you are any indication, which would lead America to an infinite cycle of fail, with every modification the system would be getting worse, because with every generation the product would be even more retarded, and making even more retarded decisions.
>>114
No, you're incorrect. The retards are people like YOU, by your expecting the public school system in the US to fix itself by adopting an even more Socialist model from other nations with markedly different demographics and socio-economic makeup.
The fact remains that the public schools in the USA are failing and failing heavily, while costing greatly just to feed a class of unionized LOSERS (teachers and administrators). Each and every attempt to "reform" them only involves the same class of unionized LOSERS, and predictably they elect not to change their compensation or how they fail to educate.
The only remaining answer that remains is to REMOVE the authority of the unionized LOSERS from the school system. This authority is removed by removing the MONOPOLY the public system has. After that, market forces MUST force changes ... even if it's just to force failing public schools to close down and re-open as cheaper ones (failing or not, since they're CHEAPER, you fuckwit!).
To reiterate: If Finland's system uses "educational professionals" to run a public school system, then that SAME MODEL is already operating (i.e. failing to educate) in the USA. We've thrown MORE MONEY and MORE PROFESSIONALS at the same problem in the USA for decades. It's not working and Finland has nothing to teach us since it has nothing to export. What has NOT been tried is what worked a long time ago: COMPETITION.
You're just afraid to adopt educational competition (i.e. privatization) since it opposes your Socialist upbringing. Well, FUCK your Socialist background. You're so head-deep in Socialist asshole that you can't even see that your methods HAVEN'T worked in the USA and likely will NEVER work.
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Finnish Socialist Faggot2008-04-28 17:11
DERP DERP DERP PUBLIC SCHOOLS DERP DERP DERP OUR MODEL DERP DERP DERP ANYONE CAN DO IT DERP DERP DERP
>>118 >>119
Thanks for proving my claims that the retards churned out by the retarded system now will always advocate worse systems due to their incapability due to reasoning. Enjoy your education and medicine done for money, that's working soo good, right?
If the fully functional finnish system wouldn't work, it would be due to one and one only reason - your retardation.
>>120
You have ZERO evidence that a competitive environment is "worse" in the USA. Since such a system will be at least cheaper while delivering about the same results in the mean time, GUARANTEES that the system will be better on average. Since you obviously don't care about system cost, as a Finnish Socialist Faggot, then you don't understand that in the first place.
Go back to your "DERP DERP DERP" since that made more sense and had a truthful name to it.
P.S. YOU made the erroneous assumption that the education and medical systems were linked. Obviously they are not. The medical care system has the opposite problem in the US, in that there's too much emphasis on profit and not enough on outright care. But you don't want to hear those points since you use America's problematic medical care system as the reason to hate the entire nation. What, Finns don't have socio-economic problems? Bullshit.
clearly your education doesn't allow you to make out the simple links. Your medicine sucks because there is too much emphasis on profit - what the fuck do you think will happen if you make education all about making money, idiot?
Not to mention, I'm astounded by how your retarded mind makes up guarantees while ignoring contradicting evidence. I guess that is again due to your failing all-american schooling
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Anonymous2008-04-29 15:00
>>118
Oh man, look at how the Finnish education fails
...err disregard that, clearly gaylibfagcommunist wikipedia is vandalized by stupid finn trolls. They only don't change the system because socialist communist finns are afraid of change, they're scared of educational competition. It is an absolute wreck, proven by competitive international tests. It is clear that Finns with socialist upbringing are denying this obvious failure while free-thinking Americans who are in no way fed retarded misinformation are showing them the truth. Oh, wait...
>>122
Clearly you have a reading disability. The public school system in the USA is STARTING from a bad and monopolistic condition. Introducing competition is a possible fix. It can't be MORE EXPENSIVE, so even if it doesn't deliver better education, it will still be a BETTER system since it will be CHEAPER.
Once again, you being a Finnish Socialist Faggot, you just don't understand the concept of measuring results by their COSTS.
In privatizing (as American education was in the 1800s), I'm taking the CHANCE that educational results will be greater. But we know to the nth degree about what does NOT work in the USA anymore, and that's a public school system. The professionals and politicians running the system can't be used to FIX IT. Hence, we have to get RID OF THEM. Getting rid of the entrenched and unionized LOSERS only means that we have to privatize.
This privatization can happen in steps, too, with measurable results along the way. No doubt your Socialist Faggotry doesn't accept that way, either. But regardless of how anyone feels about it, increased personal choice in the USA is coming. More and more parents are finding other options than the minority-filled uneducational institutions that the failing cities still operate as cash cows for themselves. This is going to get worse for the minorities before it gets better, but we have to try a fix that has at least a CHANCE of working. Using the same unionized LOSERS to fix it has NOT worked. Charlotte Iserbyt showed clearly how that didn't work.
So I say PRIVATIZE. Kick those unionized LOSERS to the fucking curb and let the profit motive come up with possible educational systems that work. If not? Well, 20 years from now, we'll know and arrive at a different solution. But after a good 20 years of trying to keep the same unionized LOSERS in charge, we know for a FACT that that choice DOES NOT WORK.
>>124
I see that you're still being a short-sighted idiot and ignoring the source of the problem, not to mention still ignoring evidence and thinking the united states is some sort of bizzaro-land where liberals are regarded as left wi-oh wait... Keep it up.
>>125
Considering an alternate fix for 20 years of solid "false-fixing" behavior is the very definition of being LONG-sighted. Using public-school paradigms for fixing the failing public school system in the USA has ONLY produced MOAR FAIL. That's the definition of insanity, right? Doing the same thing after failing to produce results the first time? Since fixing the system WITHIN the system is a clear, failing method, then something else must be tried. That "something else" is PRIVATIZATION.
If there's anyone where ignoring evidence, it's YOU, as a Finnish Socialist Faggot. Your Finnish system works in Finland. Finland doesn't have the minorities and wealth-distribution and transportation problems that the USA have. But that's typical Socialist behavior, to assume that their state-centric system works in all cases. Well, the heavily-Socialist system in the USA is PURE FAIL. Any other view of it is delusional and ... well, Finnish in nature.
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Ubernostrom2008-04-29 22:59
I've had just about enough of this.
Red, I would love to know the name of the teacher or teachers who failed you (possibly rightly) that you've taken such a jaundiced look at them. You honestly seem to believe that the whole of the public school system is full of people who went to school for at least two years on the pure basis that they can entrench themselves, get a paycheck, never do their job and never get called for it. Your argument fails on too many reactionary levels to call out without being tl;dr-worthy, none the least of which is your unsaid assertion that minorities should shut the fuck up and march directly into prison, and stop taking up desk space.
Finnish-person: Calling Red out with the virtues of your opinion doesn't work, nor does trying to defend them against his willful ignorance. Also, when you catch him, he ignores you and moves to the next person who can't defend himself. Being an internet tough guy appears to be the only joy left to him, capitalizing words when he gets upset is like getting a new puppy to him. Now, explain how you would modify and implement the system you claim to have firsthand experience with in America or hold your peace. Feel free to mention the methods that Finland uses to place education as being important, I doubt anyone else read those articles.
>>127
You must be referencing statistics about public schools in the USA that are made up by some unionized think tank. The sad reality is that I'M RIGHT, which only means you're living in denial. You can try to play the falsehood that what I'm saying is some emotionally based conclusion, but the real problem here is that your denial about public-school problems is the true emotional tie.
Talk to some of these unionized losers and find out EXACTLY how little they want to be held responsible for the legions of children who leave their classrooms being unable to read, perform arithmetic, construct a rational essay, or even think with any critical ability. All this lack of performance is not defended; no, these unionized LOSERS just claim none of it is their responsibility, and oh yeh, they need another 4% COLA this year along with their great health-care plans.
You apologists are rife. Your dismissals of our criticisms are calculated and empty. ADDRESS MY POINTS OR ADMIT YOU'RE A PROPAGANDIST.
Fuckball.
P.S. The Finnish Socialist Faggot will NOT mention any Finnish methods of instruction since he can't bring those up without my destroying them. Finland has a different society, and doesn't suffer minority-dominance in urban school systems which are nonetheless ringed by vicious Whites who are only looking to finally put up walls to "keep the Blacks in". That's what a public school in America actually is: A pre-prison, just to get the minority children used to being institutionalized. Obviously, the White Liberals who run these pre-prisons have to be FIRED FIRED FIRED before actual walls are put up for the ultimate in segregation.
And how do we do that? BY PRIVATIZING.
If some suburban school is producing children who can read, write, calculate and overall THINK, then those schools have nothing to fear. But overall, the average public school is sinkhole for unionized LOSERS who are just babysitting minorities who have no real homes anyway. There's a cheaper way to serve the ultimate CUSTOMER of the schools: the TAXPAYER. And that cheaper way is PRIVATIZATION. Fire the unions and then ban them from the privatization scheme. Link performance and pay. So if the performance isn't there like it isn't there NOW, then at least it will be cheaper, hence it will better serve the CUSTOMER: the TAXPAYER.
I realize that in Finland, the taxpayer is a just a rube who has to pay and STFU. I bet you propagandists think that sounds like fucking HEAVEN, doesn't it? Fortunately, liberty has a larger following in the USA than in Finland, and we have more choices for avoiding unionized LOSERS who only want to keep their paychecks rolling.
Yeh, so I'm going to sit back and wait for the Finnish Socialist Faggot to actually discuss METHODS. I won't hold my breath, since I'll lose consciousness. His native methods are not applicable to America and he KNOWS IT.
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Ubernostrom2008-04-30 3:33
>>128
I've adressed your points before, you vacous waste of flesh, go read >>74 and actually respond.
I've agreed with you that the teacher's union is absolute shit, and should be quietly disbanded or brought to task by the government actually holding them accountable. That aspect of NCLB would be great, if not for the fact that the only method that system has for catching teachers is a sink-or-swim mentality, which leaves the children to founder as well. The best credence I'll give to the Finnish is that their government uses their (relatively) enormous tax income to actually push education as being important, and the prevalence of trade schools prepares people far better than a shitty liberal-arts degree. Past that, our societies are too different to merely transplant one system whole into the other.
Before you presume to characterize me as some fool who spouts what the unions feed to the public, I shall remind you that I have firsthand knowledge of the shit that goes on. Not every goddamned public school is a bars-on-windows pre-prison, merely a good portion of ones in severe urban areas. Not every teacher is there for paychecks and tenure, some would actually like to teach, despite the children coming in fucked-up.
My overall objection to your simplification of "public schools fail, the only other option is privitization, agree or you're a libfag socialist" is that you have no basis in realistic practice. To reiterate: Private institutions work because they have enough money to lure away the best teachers, and the money comes from parents who care enough about their children to make an actual effort to invest in their future. With the 'magic' of your competition you will get what experts call a clusterfuck; parents scrambling to get their children into the 'good' school, less affluent parents forced to settle, and a bidding war for the best teachers. Where do the poor belong in this, then? What guarantee does your plan have against teachers blatantly cheating to ensure their new jobs? Who is going to run these private institutions, and who guarantees the curriculum?
You have adressed none of my questions posed thus far, indulge my curiousity. Also, an open dare: Answer my questions without making a caricature of my position or myself, and actually think your notions through to their end results. Do this and I might just stop considering you to be nothing more than a parasite stealing my oxygen.
Shortly, congrats on ignoring the reason behind the fail which causes people not knowing your language running around your nation, and of course I'm sure privatizing schools would help with wealth distribution. Nice way to prove your mental myopia.
>>129
JUDAS PRIEST, can you even HEAR YOURSELF talk?!?!
Where do the fucking poor belong? THE POOR ARE SCREWED NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS!
Either we keep them in a public school system where they earn a PhD in "learned helplessness" and other aspects of Communist/welfare thought, OR they are herded into leftover private institutions that fail equally to teach them. The poor are fucked no matter what ... SINCE THE US IS RUN BY PEOPLE WHO VALUE MONEY OVER EVERYTHING ELSE.
What the FUCK do you think education in the USA really is FOR, anyway? It's not to make people better persons. It's not for advancing the knowledge of Humanity. No, motherfucker, all education in the USA is geared towards MAKING MORE MONEY.
All my reasoning is based upon this basic assumption, which I've tried to reveal TIME AND TIME AGAIN by emphasizing that "private schools can still fail in the same fashion but will be cheaper". I've said that MANY TIMES. But you Socialist Faggots are unable to hear the siren song of MONEY. That's why you're SOCIALISTS.
And Socialism isn't that much of a bad thing, as long as you actually accomplish gaining in HUMAN RESOURCES what you set out to gain. Of course, even "Socialists" in the US are largely Corporate-Socialists under a thin veneer of Cultural-Socialists. They only care about MONEY, too. They only value Human resources as long as more of the same yuppie Socialists are created to support the Empire. That's why I'm calling you a bunch of fags. Most of you pretend to be oh-so-concerned about people, and then you run 110% in favor of MONEY MONEY MONEY in everything you do. Boil you down, and what's left over is GREED.
So at least I'm HONEST about what's important in a Western-styled school system. What's important is to get it done AT LEAST COST. That delivers the most value to the CUSTOMER, who is the TAXPAYER. In Socialism, the taxpayer has no rights and is summarily ignored. In Socialism, the customer is the WHITE ELITES (largely Jews) WHO RUN THE SYSTEM AS ADMINISTRATOR-GODS.
P.S. I am taking this oxygen as I desire and you have no power to stop me. Brag and strut all you want. You're powerless.
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Ubernostrom2008-05-01 2:00
>>131
Frankly, I can't hear myself talk when I'm typing silently. However, you have proven one very important thing: you are paranoid and quite possibly moderately delusional on several levels.
You have yet to explain anything or adress anything in a cogent manner, merely passing personal opinion as god-given fact. You are sound and fury, signifying nothing; I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions, or to even explain how your system would work.
When you are quite done trying to be the lead douchebag, try again, and do it right. Take all the oxygen you need in the meantime, I cannot help but pity someone whose brain has apparently been denied it for this long.
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Anonymous2008-05-01 3:59
>>131
The amount of self-contradiction in the post hilarious. Enjoy.
>>132
You still haven't explained how the poor are somehow taken care of in the current system. They aren't. No matter WHAT system you enact in the USA, the culture of MONEY MONEY MONEY will inevitably put the poor in the least-service category.
If Finland wants to help out, they can pay for shipping America's poor to Finland where they can magically get the same or similar educational services that the Whiter or richer set get. Of course, Finland will do no such thing, since they will make the same money decision.
REDCREAM WINS AGAIN. Being unable to address RedCream's facts and opinions, his opponents retreat behind blather and ad hominem, which neatly cover their failure to address ANY of his points.
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Anonymous2008-05-01 9:19
>>134
Of course, when you declare yourself your retarded misconceptions as true, you prove them!
I don't know how many times do I have to repeat for it to go through your thick skull: you are moving the wrong way, in a very short-sighted manner.
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Ubernostrom2008-05-01 12:52
>>134
What facts do you have? It is hard to adress and deconstruct an argument when it is made of circular logic wrapped around pure fantasy. Every time you simply state "I win" is another testament to your delusions of mediocrity.
Provide facts, evidence, or even someone else's facts and evidence for us to gaze at skeptically. Or, get the hell out of this thread; You have lost.
Ubie, you and your anonyminion are long on denial and short on facts. Let's break it down for you, and you are ONLY allowed to respond to EACH PIECE and not to perform ad hominem attacks or other distraction techniques:
1. Public schools in the USA are failures since on average they produce legions of children who can't read, write, calculate or think, in two ways: (a) in comparison to other nations of the world with organized school systems, and (b) in the absolute sense since they can't perform basic tasks like apply for jobs, balance their checkbooks, or understand a mortgage.
2. The failure of the public schools has been noted, then addressed for well over a generation. All such fix actions have failed since the public schools just got worse. (A "fix" is defined as an act that repairs the damage.)
3. Since the schools are failing and have resisted fixes, they should be radically reformed. This is an obvious medical metaphor; when gentle medicine fails, harsher measures are necessary.
4. Radical reform of public school systems in the USA would involve the single thing that's missing: COMPETITION. Hence, privatization should be tried en masse for the most failsome of the school systems (largely, urban systems).
No, Ubie, I dare you to address those issues. I've attached helpful numbers to each flawless point so you can easily reference what you're talking about when you respond on-topic.
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Ubernostrom2008-05-02 4:44
>>137
Finally, a postulation with cogent points to adress that state your opinion without trying to poison the well or attack me as a person. You've still managed to claim your points as flawless, so you still have some work to do, but I will cede that you've actually made an effort. Now, my take on things:
1.) I agree with you on this point, mostly. The public school system did in fact attempt to adress your (b) statement at one point, but were among the first programs cut to make money and time for hammering the 3R's into the inept. This is a travesty in the sense that you get social retards, you also lose the intangible benefit of having people realize that math and reading skills are actually important, and reinforce past learning.
2.) The failure of public schools has been a series of fixes, yes. However, none of these fixes have ever been anything but a series of stop gap solutions that temporarily fix the symptoms, not the root problem. What you consider to be fixes have been nothing of the sort, just bureaucrats tossing money at something they hope will go away. When those fail, people naturally just lower the bar a bit, hence our downward spiral. I steadfastly believe that if we had enacted the series of incentives NCLB offers, for good or for ill, we might be in a better situation.
3.) Taking note of what I just wrote, the solution is not always taking the harsher method, but the correct one for the situation. Fat people could simply eat less and change their habits, or they can have surgery and staple their stomachs smaller; both solve a problem, only one is actually beneficial in the long run. And the long-term solutions are the only ones I or anyone else should really be considering, if the need is that dire.
4.) Perhaps a trial of expanding private schools could be tried, but you are once again oversimplifying the actual problems to suit your argument. That is what makes your arguments sound delusional and makes nobody take you seriously. Reform of public schools doesn't need competition at this stage so much as it needs competent teachers' unions, teachers, students, and curriculum.
Now, questions for you:
1.) If educating the poor and minorities is a waste of time, what do you propose to do about them?
2.) Who guarantees the curriculum is correct and necessary? Who is to say that rich Jews of the world won't abandon subtlety to teach Zionism to our ignorant youth?
3.) What happens if/when this system becomes too large or insulated to regulate effectively?
4.) Short of complete abandonment and scrapping of the public school system, what actual fixes do you suggest?
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Anonymous2008-05-02 4:49
>>137
1- Ahh, reminds me of "Jack has dandruff - solution? Cut his head off". Just because you and your fellow idiots failed to fix it, presumably because if public schools were any good they couldn't reap the massive profits from private education, doesn't mean it is impossible, and the presence of working public school systems on other places on earth should have made you understand this, but we have denial.
2-see 1
3- again see 1. Hmm it isn't like you do have separate points at all...
4-facepalm.png. Of course. More of what is causing the failure will fix it, I'm sure...
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Anonymous2008-05-08 23:01
School choice is the only sensible option at this point. Anyone who disagrees is obviously a douchebag/libfag.
>>140
Thanks for this awesome post, full of intelligent thought and arguments showing why your idea is correct.
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Anonymous2008-05-09 11:40
American public skoolz will always fail until Brown vs. Board of Education is overturned.
America has within its borders thirty million ineducable IQ-55 African savages, a number approximately equal to the population of Kenya.
As long as Human students are forced to attend classes with African monkeys, and as long as the cirriculum is dumbed down to minimize the inevitable differences in intellectual performance between Humans and apes, American schools will continue to produce epic failure.
I also agree that private schools should be invested in on a massive scale, allowing competition to raise quality and hopefully reach an affordable price for tuition that families would be willing to pay in spite of public education. But investors want to see a profit, and I don't see cheap tuition as something that would make a profit or even pay for most school costs. I'd like to see costs low enough to be worth it to low income parents, but prices will simply shoot up to college levels over time.
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Anonymous2008-05-10 4:16
Privatise all schools and sell them off, use the money earned to pay off the deficit. Market forces will do the rest.