""The Guttmacher Institute says that most malformations and fetal problems are caused from a man whose sperm is infected or dulled down from drugs/alcohol/smoking. "
That's bad too. Not relevant though." - Don't tell me it's not relevant when the far by greater chance of the fetus catching a disease or being harmed is from the man's messed up sperm. Stated by the Guttmacher Institute. This still shows your one-sidedness to this entire ordeal.
"No, not for raising a family, for taking actions that will knowingly put their childrens lives, health, and well being at risk for selfish desires." - Oh by far, the woman is MORE at risk than the poor wittle fetus.
"What causes people to kill people? What causes people to steal? What causes people to break the law? Should murderers be held responsible for their actions? Should anyone be responsible for their actions, or can we just blame it all on their environment, and on society?" - This is all irrelevant to the choice of irresponsible sex. I'll ask AGAIN. What causes people to make irresponsible choices in the first place?
"Yes it does. Nobody should be getting welfare, period. The whole program should be incrementally removed as quickly as possible." - Expect a lot of women and the poor to be hurt. It's not cool to play around with women's lives and poor people's lives.
"Sure. And they support gun control, the gun registry, the drug war, NSA spying, etc as well. If you are sick of this, then vote libertarian." - Too many people bitch about gun control. They should know there's more than one amendment. Or maybe they are just obsessed with fire power.
"I never said we should do that. Furthermore, many of the people in congress want to fix our government. I think we should just vote out all the liberals, and vote in libertarians. Take people off the dole, and give em back their personal freedoms." - LMAO. The effin Republicans/Neo-Cons are sure screwing things up more than the Dems. The entire effin government should be cleaned out, then replaced with Libertarians-Utilitarians.
""- I'm talking about when the child is already here. If the man didn't want to become the father of a child and pay child support he wouldn't have acted 'irresponsible.' "
Wrong. It is not the responsibility of the male to keep women from getting pregnant. This effects them, not men. If women don't want to get pregnant, they need to take responsibility and make sure contraceptives are used." - Child support sure the hell does affect men. If they didn't want to become a father and pay child support they should've played their part in taking responsibility. Here's your one-sidedness again. Sex is a two-way street. You are always in favor of men and fetuses.
"I never said this. I have no issue with responsibility. You are trying to push the responsibility nature gives to women onto men, however." - Right...nature created child support laws. Right right right.
"Says she who thinks women should be allowed to use force and violence to violate the rights of employers to their property? I think yours is the fucked up attitude." - I haven't advocated violence and force for this matter. Your attitude is by far more fucked up for your assumptions and blatant common sense to most issues.
"I didn't refer to *all* women as irresponsible bitches. I said women who do 'insert irresonsible bitchy activity here' are irresponsible bitches. You are took what I said entirely out of context. Way to go!" - Notice that I never said 'all' to begin. You took what I said way out of context and stretched it. -claps- Stop defeating yourself already.
"Those men are right, more or less." - Chauvenist pig.
"Actually, there is. Its called child support laws." - Now you finally wake up to child support laws. If the man didn't want to pay child support, he wouldn't have acted irresponsible. He helped create that child just as much as the woman.
""But responsibilty is a violation against male human rights, right?"
I never said this." - By the way you're speaking, you'd like men to be void of any responsibility.
""What about the 'irresponsible' men whose condomless cocked helped create that pregnancy."
What about the women who let them put their condomless cocks inside their vagina? Did they not know that they would be spewing out babies in another 9 months if they didn't use contraception?" - Believe it or not, it is more the man's decision than the woman's. A lot of men try coercing women into having unprotected sex with threats such as, "If you don't have sex with me I'll leave you! Prove to me that you really love me."
"lol. Give me an example of how men are legislating vaginas." - Banning abortion, making contraceptives more expensive and more scarce, denying sterilization to women whom want it, pharmacists' malpractice of denying legal prescriptions of Plan B from their beliefs (they shouldn't be pharmacists if they're gonna let their beliefs rule over them), laws allowing insurance companies to not cover contraceptives and sterilization procedures for women, the gag rule, forcing Abstinence-only education (which highly fails), taking out comprehensive sex-ed, enforcing gender stereotyping and gender roles to make women subserviant as back in the 50's, etc.
"Men don't have a responsibility for unwanted pregnancies." - Yeah they do, if they didn't want to become a father in the first place. Men goad women into having abortions since they didn't want to be a father and take care of the child. "Please have an abortion! I'm not ready to be a father!"
"100% of those against abortionists will never become pregnant? I doubt that." - So you're saying men are able to become pregnant? LOL. Can't you comprehend what I just said?! LOL. 90% of anti-abortionists are men, 100% of them will never become pregnant. Notice the focus on the men?
"No it isn't. Women should not have the right to murder other human lives." - Here we go again with the same crap. Abortion isn't murder. It's a part of taking responsibility.
"Redundant. The baby grows inside her, and comes out of her. If she doesn't want this to happen, due to the fact that it is her body, she has to use contraceptives or abstain." - Redundant, if he didn't want the pregnancy to happen, he would've be responsible.
"Yeah - a baby in *her* body, not his. It is not the man's responsibility to prevent an unwanted pregnancy from growing within the woman. It is the *woman's* responsibility to prevent this occurrence in *her* body." - It is his responsibility if he didn't want the woman to become pregnant.
"Saying the man is responsible for a baby that comes out of her body when she voluntarilly takes in his sperm by not using contraceptives is like saying the food industry is responsible for shit we poop out after voluntarilly eating their food." - Very bad analogy, comparing babies to poop. LOL.
"We have no natural responsibility to kids that grow in women's bodies, thus we aren't evading responsibility, since there was never one to be evaded." - But you do have responsibility to prevent an unwanted pregnancy if you don't want to be a father.
>>464
Finally.
>>466
"Legislating equality is not liberty." - It is liberty, give me a reason it wouldn't be.
"If it is his baby, and he must help care for it, then she is not allowed to abort it without his consent." - Then again, it's inside the woman's body, not his.
"Elaborate. 'Support the carrier'?" - He means the pregnant woman. Durr.
"But women are responsible for -accepting- his fluids. It is then her fluids once she possesses it, not him. Her property then, not his, which would be quite a crucial difference." - And the man knew that his fluids would cause a pregnancy. There should be a contract for this 'acceptance' crap if you want to make sperm property. Hell, then sperm can be used as collateral!
"Good point. Again, if it is partly the man's child, then the woman cannot abort without mutual consent, since the child is both of theirs, as everyone loves to say." - The woman has more say than the man since it is growing inside her body and not his'.
>>469
"But women are responsible for -accepting- his fluids." And men are responsible for accepting her egg." - Win win win!
>>470
"Employers have the right to hire or fire whomever they please for whatever reason they please." - That's only if they are doing it on their property, and not their superior's.
"No, because the right to life is more significant than the right to kill fetuses, again, provided we are talking about your hypothetical example, in which it is all or nothing." - Redundant. Women are more important than fetuses.
""And men are responsible for accepting her egg."
Men don't accept her egg.. it is the reverse, women are accepting the semen." - The man really is accepting her egg and what happens when his sperm and semen join.
""Mind you, 90% of anti-abortionists are male, but get this, 100% of them will never become pregnant."
>>474
""Whether it does or it doesn't doesn't matter. Employers have the right to hire or fire whomever they please for whatever reason they please. There's no such thing as a right to a job. Jobs are something given to people by employers, agreed upon by mutual consent, and unless there is some sort of binding contract, can be revoked at ANY time for ANY reason." Well, if a culture makes people less worthy because of their phenotype or natal conditions, that culture may have to be changed through arbitrary means." Honest truth, hot damn.
""Possession of the semen is being transferred from the man, to the woman. The egg is not being transferred from the woman to the man." The fact that you started with making the holy procedure of consensual procreation of the species into a sort of competition is telling of how extreme one has to go to belittle women here. This is not possesion, here." - Thank you.
""100% of abortion advocates have never had to put up with the experiance of being aborted." First, a minute portion of fetuses "Experience" jack, and 100 % of pro-choicers also happen to have not experienced that. " - Win win win.
""Men don't accept her egg.. it is the reverse, women are accepting the semen." This is not about what occurs where, it is about cause and effect and as such men are equally responsible." - Thanks again.
>>475
"If I am giving out cookies on a streetcorner, and I own said cookies, and someone I just plain don't like for whatever reason comes up and wants one, I can refuse to give it to her. (hello, they are *MY* cookies.)" - Lol sexist. You'd be a bad cookie seller. Your job is selling cookies, not discriminating on phenotypes.
"That 'minute portion' is a portion of a whole so large that that 'minute portion' happens to be around 15,500 *per year*. Doesn't sound so fucking 'minute' any more, does it?" - It is minute compared to over 1.5mil. per year. And since those 15,500 per year are done out of medical reasons, I see no problem to it.
"My position *is* consistent. I am not doing it 'to hang onto an argument', I am doing it because I think this is what is right." - Well, what you think is wrong.
"It is about a transfer of ownership.. if the man is transferring ownership and possession of the semen to the woman, then it is no longer his, and thus the child won't be his either - it would be the woman's. (Yes, obviously it would be his genes, but that doesn't make it his property, since ownership was transferred via sex, in my view.)" - Umm, half of it is still his property, especially after 9 months when it is jettisoned from the woman, where it then would no longer be inside her. There's just a brief time lapse there.
"Since it is then the woman's property, what develops of it and of her body is also her property *up until* it becomes a human life, at which point it gains rights to both life and self-ownership... and becomes a seperate entity." - It's still half his property even up until then. His actions led up to what happened.
>>476
"Well I AInt damn ready to damn let an entire damn culture mistreat a damn half of its population damn." - Neither am I! Fight for what's right! -shadow boxes-
""That 'minute portion' is a portion of a whole so large that that 'minute portion' happens to be around 15,500 *per year*. Doesn't sound so fucking 'minute' any more, does it? Sept. 11th was what, 2-3 thousand dead? I forget, something like that. Well this is over 5 times that sum. Considering that Sept.11th warranted various bits of legislation to be passed, I think it is *easy* to say that the same should be done for this 15,500, which is *far* from a 'minute' number, unlike 9/11." I wonder how amny women there are in South Dakota..." - Extreme burn.
"LIfe is redundant and useless without the liberties that follow *in time*." - True.. Quality of life is really important.
"And the limit of life is at the point where a unique expression of humanity has developed, which comes kinda late. Since most pro-lifers are retards, unlike you, I'll battle them until I am dead, and will resort to arms to defend my fellow female citizens." True again. Let's fight together! To arms to arms! Oh believe me, if this was the other way around, I'd fight for men as well. Hell, even men these days need help to destroy gender stereotypes and gender roles. To arms I say!
>>477
Wha-hey. Win win win win. Thank you. -passes cookies out to anti and Xel-
>>478
Extreme fail. There is no need of a contract. The man already authorized the woman to use his fluids when he ejaculated inside her. It's his fault there. If he didn't want the woman to use his fluids then he would've been responsible and used a condom and other contraceptives.
>>479
LMAO. To arms! Xel!
>>481
"15,500 live human beings being denied their right to live is far worse an offense than women not being allowed to make smoothies out of unborn children, *especially* considering that it was the woman's actions that put them in the position they are in anyway." - See above.
"The lack of the right to make smoothies out of fetuses and embryos is something we can live without. The right to life is not." - Umm. I've never seen the fetus smoothie flavor..have you?
"But you wouldn't do so to defend the unborn, whether they are alive or not. How compassionate of you." - But you never defend half the population of the US. How compassionate of you.
>>483
"Where they meet is not what is relevant. What is relevant is whose strands they are. Who owns said strands? Since they are both owned, and possessed by the woman, it is obviously hers." - It's still half the man's responsibility. It's just like a man parking his car is someone else's garage. It's still his property.