Socialized Medicine

We can't afford it.  Some people like Michael Moore say that we should just divert funding for the war toward Socialized Medicine, but the fact of the matter is is that we can't afford the war either.  We are already borrowing money to finance a lot of the dumb programs already in place.  Government spending is out of control, and we need to exercise budget restraint now, not consider new areas to increase spending.

Thanks for stating the obvious?

>>1
You apparently missed the fact that american medicine is the worlds most expensive as it is. Socializing it may actually make it cheaper as there are places on this earth with socialized medicine that are cheaper (%GNP/capita) and has higher quality (measured with WHO indexes).

#1, part of what you say makes sense.  Yes, just because a billion a week is misallocated to "Bush's Little War", doesn't mean that the money should be spent elsewhere.  However, when it comes to affording, we can't afford our current system either.  The USA is #1 in per-capita healthcare spending.  Yet, we're #37 in healthcare service.  That means that 36 other nations deliver better healthcare for less per-capita expense.  Who was the "best country on Earth", again?

We can't afford to CONTINUE using the current system, that's for sure.  That may not mean adopting socialized medicine as perhaps Canada does it, but it does mean regulating the insurance companies to put a stop to their predatory profiteering.

Socialized medicine. Next comes Two Minutes Hate. What a glorious thing to be a prole! Would I were a prole.

#5, you're surrounded with a lot of proles already.  The difference from the world of "1984" is that your culture steadily ignores their existence until riots happen.

P.S.  Despite the Hypersocialist vision of "1984", Britain still hasn't become Oceania to be always at war with Eastasia!  If there's a "next" for socialized medicine in the USA, it would have appeared in Europe by now.  Darn it, I know these points are never explored on Rush Limbaugh, but could you at least come up with something that I can't destroy in less than 30 seconds?

Rush Limbaugh? You always entertain, Redcream. Whichever Redcream you are. And hey, don't leave Eurasia out of the equation. Now I'll skip the sarcasm and get to something more fun.

What could you not destroy in thirty seconds...that's tough. I'll concede ground this time. The first Redcream I came across would crush me in a debate, and I know when it is prudent to accept tactical defeat to ensure strategic victory. There's nothing wrong with the Fabian policy.

Have a good'n.  

{tip o' the hat}

>>8
Quoi?

I've never understood why people think socialised medical services will be helpful. Insurance is not actually beneficial, the more capacity you have to pay, the more capacity the doctors have to charge. The medical system would actually be much better off if insurance and health care didn't exist all together.

Medicine would also be cheaper if the government would stop their price controls. I know a guy who goes two states over to get his prescriptions, because the same prescription is 400 dollars more in his state, where there are price controls.

I know a guy who goes two states over to get his prescriptions, because the same prescription is 400 dollars more in his state, where there are price controls.
How do I cherry-pick examples?

Typical Yank. The US is the world!

>>6
You should reread 1984 as you have clearly confused some of its message. Oceania is not socialist, its what Orwell (who was an ardent socialist) thought stalinism would lead to. Yet there were no other types of societies, america had also become a big brother state as Oceania, meaning that stalinism is not the only system that can lead to 1984, in Orwells opinion. Stop raping him, it makes it hard for him to sleep.

#12, you fail it, since the militarized world envisioned by Orwell is EXACTLY where all that Neo-Liberalism leads to.  You say Oceania is not Socialist?  Well, it sure as hell ended up where modern Socialism and Capitalism want to go.  If anything, THAT was Orwell's point.

Your 11th grade English teacher couldn't admit anything like that, I'm sure.  Look up the "Wiemar Republic"; your public-school teachers sure as FUCK didn't want you understanding where the American Republic was going to end up.

>>11
Being as how I can no longer differentiate sarcasm from honest sentiment on these boards I am going to assume you mean what you say.  As such, how else are we supposed to make decisions on policy apart from our personal experiences with the outcomes?  Are you saying that if everyone gets together and believes really hard the outcome will be any different?

In regards to my first comment I think there is a case for this politics board to be considered a form of high art.   So many confused angry and strong opinions all at odds with one another.  You can't even tell someone you agree with from someone you don't in the anonymous setting.  It's truly bewildering.

>>14
Because personal experiences -- aka anecdotal evidence -- is worth diddle shit. I can prove the US never went to the moon with anecdotal evidence if I wanted to.

See, thanks to your wonderous bullshit conclusion based on only one observation, I can trivially disprove you sweeping conclusion: http://www.house.gov/cummings/pdf/intl.pdf  <-- Took me five seconds to find that! Hard!

tl;dr: come up with more robust empirical observations, kthx dumb Yank.

>>13
Orwell was a socialist, you idiot. He did not mean socialism leads to 1984. You are trying to make him a mouthpiece for your agenda, but you would do better by using Ayn Rand or whoever else libertards like to read. Again, after me, George Orwell was a socialist, he did not mean socialism would lead to 1984.

>>13
So Orwell the Socialist writes a book about what Socialism leads to and ends up with 1984? A book that's clearly NOT a suggestion but a WARNING? Hmm.

>>17
As I said, its not a warning about socialism but stalinism AND capitalism. Orwell had encountered stalinism in spain while fighting with POUM and he had been scared of it. Read Homage to Catalunya to understand.

stalinism = socialism
You fail, good day sir.

>>19
Not in Orwells head. Which should be self evident.

Stalinism is not socialism.  Also, aside from Homage to Catalunya, you should read The Road To Wigan Pier, which quite clearly outlines Orwell's thoughts on Socialism.

Orwell was a socialist. 

the fact that the US is borrowing money is just a signal of where they are on the trad cycle
the loans are likely on a low interest rate and it is unlikely that the US would default on any loans it takes
social healthcare is well within the reach of the US government it only costs the UK $80 billion out of the tax budget to provide health care to its 75 million citizens

>>19
socialism = public ownership of some things...  that's why america has a "socialized" postal service and "socialized" police and fire departments.  Fire departments used to be private enterprized, eh?  You'd have the logo for the department on your own that you subscribed to, and if it was there and you weren't late on your payments, they would put it out.  If you didn't or you weren't, they would let it burn down.  AWESOME eh?

Stalinism: single party control of freakin' everything.  Stalin engineered famines and had his political revivals killed, he didn't try to sit down and figure out how to make things work.

And that's what socialism really is...  sitting down with everything you know and have access to and trying to figure out how to make a nation, as a system, function towards certain goals.  You want everyone to be able to see a doctor if they're sick?  You find money for it and you do it.  You want to build a massive highway system that will make it so people can drive around and move things?  You figure it out and find the money somewhere.  Notice how GM and Ford don't pay for the upkeep of the highways, your tax dollars do?  You're already driving on socialized roads, dummie.

If stalinism = socialism then capital = fascism and anarchy = care bear count down five four Three Two ONE!!!!!!!!!!!

Clearly, what you said is nonsense

>>23
How do I wrote incoherent bullshit?

>>24

Um. That was extremely coherent. Well...at least I understood it. Maybe you should re-read and rebut?

>>1 - >>25
faggotry.

We can't afford health care whether it's socialized or not.  The United States is filled with lard-asses who don't care about their health until it's too late.  Our medical system will never be worth 2 shits until we change our culture and focus on preventative measures and education.

Also, no one cared about this bull shit until a bunch of loud-mouthed assholes started screaming it from the rooftops.  Don't act like you care about "health care for everyone" if you weren't even thinking about 10 years ago.

I'm in kanada, buddy... people are fat asses here too.  Moore's movie was way off when it came to hospital wait times...  45 minutes to an hour... that's just bullshit, you're going to wait at least an hour or two during the day, and it can get insane at night.  My friend's appendix was going to burst and he waited in agony in the hospital waiting room for 5 hours before we could get help for him.  But you know what?  The care we eventually got was great, took care of everything, and didn't cost us a dime... and our economy sucks compared to yours.

In a developed country, there's no excuse for health care to be denied to anyone, and the US is the only developed nation in the world that would think to deny.  Crazy bullshit cowboy mentality is just making a bunch of rich guys laugh at you.

Socialized healthcare is the first step to regulated lifestyle.
You won't be allowed to smoke anymore because chemotherapy costs too much.
Same goes for drinking. Hamburgers are bad, too, so no more fast food.
Those stupid eurofags bitching about fat americans is a preview of the future.
You eat a steak - you go to jail.

>>28
DRINKING WATER IS THE FIRST STEP TO BECOMING A HEAVY ALCOHOLIC GUYZ!

Slipper-slope arguments are for morons.

>>29

Oh hey, lets look at Europe.
Advertisement for cigarettes is banned. All manufacturers must print SMOKING IS BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH on each package.
Also cigarettes are heavily taxed.
Isaiah Berlin foretold this when distinguishing between positive and negative liberty.
But you welcome a communist nannystate, don't you?

>>28
France and the UK has socialized health care, people drink, smoke, do drugs, and rebel against their governments like crazy.  I live in Canada, we have socialized health care, I smoke half a pack a day and I'm 6'4 and 300lbs, more than 100 of it I could stand to loose.  That's right....  over 1/3 of me is cheddar cheese and mayonaisse, and I'm a free man, bound only by my petty vices.

PRIVATIZED health care is the first and only step towards a profit driven health care system.

Sicko: hey, why are my insurance rates going up?
HMO: oh, well, we know we can charge you more because the free market says you can't get a better price for the same coverage some where else
Sicko: oh... so you're going to use that money to help more people?
HMO: what?  no, we're keeping it.
Sicko: keeping it... in case there's a health crisis?
HMO: no, we want to have lots of money.
Sicko: well... I need this treatment or I'm going to die.
HMO: that's great, but you're not covered for that.
Sicko: oh... well I want to live some more, can I have it anyway?
HMO: No.
Sicko: But I'm going to die.
HMO: yeah, but saving your life would cost us money, and we want to keep the money, so unless there's some kind of contract that forces us into helping you, we're not going to.  That way we get more money:D

You want to rebut?  Rebut this: PROFITS = LOSS

The excess money HMO's have at the end of the year?  It just disappears, they keep it.  It's not an institution designed to help people and get them to live longer, it's an institution designed to make money, as much as possible.  They have a legal obligation to their shareholders to make decisions that will maximize the amount of money that just disappears into profits.  If the CEO of an HMO decided to start giving people treatments they weren't covered for, he'd be fired, and maybe sued.

Canada (land where we have the exact same fucking fast food restaurants you guys do...  your filthy culture seeps across the border like pus) has socialized medicine and fat people the same!! And all the freedoms that the lack of a PATRIOT ACT entitles!!

Sicko:  hey, I gotz teh cancers
Comrade Nurse: got your OHIP card? XD
Sicko: Oh, the Ontario Health Insurance Plan card, that every citizen in the province has?
Comrade Nurse: Da, sickozsky!
Sicko: I sure do ^_^  Can you give me expensive treatments?  I have no money...
Comrade Nurse: hahaha, having no money doesn't mean you deserve to fucking DIE!!  What do you think this is, AMERICA?!?!
Sicko: HAHAHAA
Comrade Nurse: HAHAHAHAH
WHOLE FUCKING WORLD: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAA

>>31

Oh boy, dumb examples and faulty logic.
You, sir, are a true master of asshattery!

>>30
Cigarettes?!  Heavily taxed/!??!  Omg I bet they spend the money on vodka and big stupid furry hats!!!!

Oh wait, no, it goes to cover the health care costs of smokers...  so it's almost as if you're paying for your health care... with taxes....  and when you get lung cancer, you get taken care of... BAFFLING

We have the same smoking laws in Canada... and oooooh, it is truly anguishing to not be advertised to by tobacco companies (which actually helps the companies... those advertisements don't convince people to smoke, they're targeted at smokers of rival brands.  So the tobacco industry gets to save millions upon millions each year but not having to compete with each other through advertisements).  And the packages don't say SMOKING IS BAD FOR YOU, they say DON'T SMOKE AROUND YOUR KIDS, DON'T SMOKE WHEN YOU'RE PREGNANT, OMG LOOK AT THESE GROSS CIGARETTE TEETH, and so forth...  that's a nannystate?  I'm smoking right now and life is good, bitch...

And if the eurofags are under such a horrible nannystate regime, how come they have way more relaxed drug laws than you bible thumpers?  and if Europe is communist, how come more billionaires live in London than any other city in the world?

Freedom? oh freedom... that's just some people talkin'.  Your prison is walkin' through this world all alone.

>>32
what, pray tell, are these faulty logics, good sir?   what is it you're having trouble getting your mind around?  "pfft, NO" is actually not a rebuttal.  If you disagree for any other reason than ronald reagan told you to, let's hear it coward.

>>33
dontcha FEET GET COLD IN THE WINTER TIIIIIME
Your sky wont snow and your sun wont shiiiine
It's hard to tell the night time from the daaaaaaaaay

You're boozin' all your highs and lows
Aint it funny how the feeling goes... awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay?

Come back when you acquired some experience in politics, underage troll.

>>36
ad hominem fallacy

GTFO nigger

>>38
this is why you're the laughing stock of the world.  you're all trapped in the belly of that horrible machine you call a nation, and the machine is bleeding to death.

GTFO nigger

>>40
"A fallacy is a component of an argument that is demonstrably flawed in its logic or form, thus rendering the argument invalid in whole."

"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the person", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.  It is most commonly deply by retards."

sorry dude... PWND

GTFO nigger

>>42
I am a good deal smarter than you

GTFO nigger

>>44
sniveling coward.. the whole world's already on fire and you just think the smoke is pretty.  american's final century is upon you and you're too blind to see it.  repeat yourself all you like, good practice for when you're hiding under your bed...  the future belongs to us

GTFO nigger

If you're really going to bitch and piss and moan about you're right to smoke then you deserve to be unhealthy.

Seriously, it's fucking childish to say that your right to do unhealthy things is more important than establishing a culture that values life and living it well.

>>47
Dude... people have a right to health and unhealth alike

>>48
but that right exist if it (collectively) impacts the rest of the nation?

>>49
yeah, you're right... probably should be some way of place the burden on the individual for the choices that they're making while still not taking away their universal public health care...  hey wait, how about a kingsize 25 pack of good smokes costing $10 in Canada?  I hear in Virginia, it's like.... $2.50.

Besides, what're you going to do, make smoking illegal?  People already get reserve smokes from the native reservations for $10 a carton, you'd just drive it underground, make criminals rich, and lose tax money while still paying for the health costs.

We don't have to FORCE people to stop smoking.  We a culture that values its health so that the fewest number of people possible want to smoke/be fat/etc.
Yes it's idealistic, but it's the only way we'll ever have a health care system that isn't constantly burdened with preventable illnesses.

>>51
>>we NEED a culture....

>>51
so...  what is it you're suggesting, exactly? 

>>51
yeah well, get to work on that... I don't think that universal health care coverage should be kept from people because of an "unhealthy culture".  Unhealthy people have a right to medical care as much as healthy people do... would be rather silly otherwise.  Would shoo away a person from a public hospital because she had skin cancer from not using the right sunblock and sun bathing too much?  Oh, you wouldn't?  Then how is this line of thought relevant to whether or not socialized health care is good or not?

>>39
If it's bleeding to death, it's been injured. So there really is a way out! Let me just slip into the blood stream...

>>37
This ain't rhetoric 101.

But I have a grand idea. Let's not just throw out our grand ideas about socialism/capitalism/socio-capitalism/socio-communism/ad absurdum. Why not go out and do some research, look shit up in reliable sources of information (not teh internets)(unless it's from a respectable souce)(which means you can't reference Congress.) and figure out how much socialized medicine would cost in America. And then figure which part of the budget is going to get slashed. God forbid we lose the Department of Education. Or worse, how much the taxes will be to pay for it.

Now with that information, figure out how horrendous or wonderful it will be. I don't want your opinions.

If I wanted child-like rants and tantrums, I'd go to myspace.

>>55
yeah, because the food in your stomach escapes when you loose a leg.

No, this isn't LOGIC 101, it's GTFO nigger-town, and how I react to that is up to me.

Don't assume that just because you don't know what you're talking about, neither does anyone else.  All I've never known is socialized medicine, same thing with everyone in my family and all my friends.  I don't see the grand theory in me saying "it works fine and I'm glad I'll never have to mortgage my house if I get cancer".

If you don't want child-like rants and tantrums, avoid people in general.

>>56
Note the "slip into the bloodstream part." And if that don't work, I'll still get shat out.

Logic 101 or rhetoric 101? GTFO? lolz.

I think you have trouble reading, or perhaps I find the worst possible ways to express and idea. I wasn't coming down on one side of the argument or the other. Quite to the contrary.

What I am trying to do is get people to realize that even if they state something in all caps, it doesn't make it true. Let me give you an example, just so we're clear: you like buttsex with livestock. Now is that a true statement? Probably not. But if I really believe it is...and I believe very hard...nope, still not true. Clear?

Which is all this thread has amounted to. Anon says "Socialized medicine won't work because it is teh suxorz." To which Anon says, "Big corporations are buttsexing you, cause socialized medicine does work." And then Anon relates anecdotal proof, which is just as quickly rebutted by Anon with his own, roxorz anecdotal proof. See?

I'm not expecting to see meaningful, productive intercourse ("hehe lolz") but informed banter would be nice. What would be really awesome and would fill my heart with rainbows and puppy dogs and koala bears is people saying, "it won't work because, according to these data, expenditure would exceed revenue," to which Anon replies "With socialized medicine, there's no need for the medicare program and a host of other redundant systems..."

Now come here and give me a hug!

>>54
Firstly I didn't say anything about denying health care to anyone.  I was saying that our society will be much better off if people treasure their well being and make an effort to keep themselves healthy (by eating right, exercising, being informed, etc.).

Next, you're not looking at the long-term picture.  What good is a universal health care system if half our population is overweight and suffering from diabetes and other weight related conditions.  Sure their symptoms can be treated, but in the long run people won't be any happier.  Taxes will be higher because unnecessary illnesses (read: preventable) will have be treated.  And outside of the health care system people are going to be less productive for society.

So, tell me, is there a single reason why we as a society shouldn't strive to be healthy; to prevent illness before it happens?  Is there something wrong with educating people so maybe they don't catch and spread STDs?  Do you find something inherently bad about teaching people proper eating habits?

If our society doesn't make an effort to improve its condition it'll literally be crushed under its own weight.  Some quick fix like socialized medicine isn't going to make everything all right.  If large numbers of people continue with unhealthy lifestyles the system will eventually fail because there will be too many people to care for.  people who potentially didn't have to become ill.

The drugs in the states are just too farking expensive. Medicine in Thailand is only a fraction of the US price.
What's the excuse for that?

All manufacturers must print SMOKING IS BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH on each package.
OH MY GOD, IT'S THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD! QUICK, CALL AYN RAND!!1!!1!1!!

As I said, slippery-slope arguments are for morons.

>>58
might I remind you that this is the "socialized medicine" threat and not the "prancing about being gay" thread

>>58
the funny thing about a lack of socialized medicine is that a lot of people who miss out aren't necessarily unhealthy, they're just poor.  It doesn't seem to matter that places like Canada and the UK, which also have fat people and smokers, manage to figure it out...  ooooh, but you can't afford it?  a week's worth of fighting in iraq money would do it, and you seem to pretend you can afford that...  except instead of flushing the money down the desert, you're recharging your labour force to be able to get back to wort.

No one has yet been able to counter the profits = losses phenomena

I did watch Mr Moores film and as a Brit i found it quite shocking. I knew americans don't have national health care but i assumed if they couldn't pay the government puts up the cash. Also i knew how good cuba was for healthcare too but moore didn't mention cubas difficulty of importing medication due to the american embargo.

Im glad to live in a country with socialized medical care, education to University level, social services, housing and so forth. Americans seem to think these things are a drain on a country, slow progress and make people poorer. It is quite the opposite, they are jewels we have worked hard for and allow us to do great things.

Any child in this or many other European nations who wants to say be an architect, is guaranteed to have everything provided for them to achieve that, food, shelter, care and education. If they get sick everything possible in modern medicine will be done to ensure their recovery and one day they will be another working adult as a part of that society. When they retire, the society they have helped prosper will ensure their needs are met. Thats what socialism is gentlemen, thats what Europe is all about basically, just trying to find a better way for people to live, be happy and avoid the death and destruction of the past.

everyone who wants to provide health care for everyone should first become doctors and actually provide health care before they "armchair politic" for socialized medicine.

>>64
anyone who wants to complain about socialized health care should invade all the countries that already have it and take it away from them, before they "armchair politic" for people to stop talking about a good idea that works in every other developed country.

#62 makes a good point.  I happen to have ego enough to expand upon it in my own way.  Insurance-dominated healthcare in America really didn't happen until the labor shortages around WWII.  Employer-covered healthcare was one of the benefits which companies added since they were largely not allowed to offer larger wages or salaries due to government price controls.  Hence, what was America really like before that?  A living hell?  Certainly not.  America wasn't a living hell before air conditioning and weekly trash pickups, either, yet yuppie fucks somehow think that it was.

As the presence of Hypercapitalist insurance companies continue to distort healthcare in America beyond all recognition, perhaps it's time to stop subscribing to the idea that healthcare is a necessary item for a large percentage of the population.  That same percentage could help that along by eating right and actually exercising for once ... what with individual responsibility being so allegedly important in America and all.

Remember, the REAL heart to "pro choice" is at the time when legs are spread to receive some whigger's cock.  Similarly, the REAL heart to healthcare in America is keeping yourself fit for most of your life.  That might require less posting to 4chan, alas, but that's the price we all must pay.

perhaps it's time to stop subscribing to the idea that healthcare is a necessary item for a large percentage of the population.
How are you planning to halt infections, heredity, or accidents?

How were "infections, heredity, or accidents" halted in the past?  Answer:  They weren't.  How are they stopped today.  Answer:  The still aren't.  The infection thing is even more poignant, since on top of everything else, we're in a "calm before the storm" phase of healthcare where we're going to have a monstrous resistance-inspired plague run across America.  Today's arrangements aren't any better than before; we just have better PR.

I can only maintain that if we don't control the costs of for-profit healthcare, that we will be FORCED to make healthcare highly optional for Americans within 20 years.  It only behooves people to anticipate that and act accordingly and personally.

We can afford it if we stop being an interventionalist superpower.

Ding! Ding! Ding!  #69 wins the prize for having issued the CORRECT answer.  Actually, the answer card says:

"The USA would be able to afford to provide socialized medicine if it used the excess capital currently being wasted maintaining metastable supremacy over other nations."

The judges decided #69's answer is sufficient.

For his prize, #69 gets an all-expenses paid trip to beautiful Baghdad!  He'll also receive a complimentary vest of body armor!  He'll be able to bask in the warm Middle Eastern sun, while being served poisoned sodas by an Iraqi boy/insurgent.

>>69
We could afford it if the anti-american axis of evil stopped persecuting us and threatenning us with terrorism.*

fix'd

>>66
I'm very, VERY curious as to what part of my point you think you expanded upon...  I said that unhealthy, even WILLINGLY unhealthy, people exist in abundance in countries other than the United States, and those countries still provide free medical care to everyone who needs it.

You said that people used to get by without social medicare, and people are fat, so go fuck yourselves.

Tell me... before WWII, how much did kemo-therapy cost?  Or cancer medication?  Before WWII, was it possible to encure medical expenses upwards of the inflation adjusted $500,000 it can cost you today in america after a head injury?

I think if you walked into an american hospital before WWII with a severed finger in a coffee cup, no insurance or employee benefits, and no inflation adjusted $60,000 at your disposal, the doctor would still help you.

And if he didn't then, just because it was before WWII, doesn't make it right or wrong.  If, for whatever reason, there were people who didn't have access to medical care in america before WWII, for ANY reason, be it their financial circumstances or the condemnation of their choices concerning free time and fatty foods by the pussy skinheads that frequent 4chan from time to time, it would still be as much as a travesty then as it is now.

#71, there's no serious threat to the USA from terrorism.  If people had done their fucking jobs leading up to 911, it quite simply would not have happened.  The people learning to fly (but not land) planes would have been investigated.  Most likely, some would have been deported once their visas expired and they remained in the US.  Further, their buying up of tickets to de-populate the target planes would also have triggered an investigation.  Further, once the planes seriously departed their flight plans, interceptor jets would have scrambled in the regions they were over, and would have stopped them once it became obvious they were aimed at cities.

The 911 report was FULL of these examples if individual and institutional incompetence, but the American people and their leaders completely glossed over that fact and marched onward as if such weakness didn't need to be addressed.

(And you know what?  The chief barrier to another hijacking in the US is the PASSENGERS.  They've finally acted (as they should have done ALL ALONG, 911 and before) several times to stop threatening passengers.)

But what was the Chief Incompetent (i.e. GWB) doing in the months leading up to 911?  Yes, he was fucking around with making plans to INVADE IRAQ.  Once again, he demonstrated that playing a Fascist general was more the aim of a national leader than actually protecting American lives.

EVEN NOW, your beloved warhawks and chickenhawks refuse to secure the borders of the USA.  Like them, you're just busy selling the Imperial Model of the West to the subjects (NOT citizens) of the same area.  So, eat shit, fuckbrain!

#72, I'd be more than happy to 'splain.

Your subsequent examples are filled with financial fail.  Chemo?  No, you just died.  However, you died without invoking tens of thousands of dollars in average treatment costs.  Cancer survival rates are still terrible.  Obviously, a lot of people are spending a lot of money and just end up dead (or dead soon enough) anyway.  How exactly is THAT a better system of healthcare?

If you get cancer and it's late stage, just go home and die with dignity.  Don't run up (by then) a good $100K in bills just so you can have 2 years of terrible treatments just so you can linger for 2 more years and then die of the same causes anyway.

Look, what I'm saying is that we CAN and MUST get by without socialized medicine in the USA.

CAN = We used to keep ourselves healthy with eating right and exercising.  That's most of the healthcare battle, right there.  Past that point, you can buy "catastrophic health" insurance.

MUST = The Hypercapitalists are in solid control of the nation and there's going to be no sharing of that power with the general public without resolution by civil war.  Barring the war, it's not going to get better.  The prudent man would conclude that common healthcare is going to continue being priced out of his ability to pay.  The prudent man would then plan accordingly; that means paying a lot more attention to your personal, preventative actions.

>>74
faggot

What part of 300 million people do you idiots not understand.  Just because someoine is paying taxes does not mean they are not putting more than they are taking out.  Unlike many of those european countries, we have areas of permanent burdens known here as Ghettos.  You will see the money quickly drain when gangsters with no job keep getting shot and treated.  If your solution is to not treat them, then your statement that it helps everyone is false.

That's a fairly good point, #76, but if you're that cognizant of gangsters, then you must be fairly well informed of all the gangsters in the insurance, care and elder-housing industries who routinely rape Medicare with overcharges.  I guess my point is that "leeches" and "cost centers" upon the system will always be a problem, which auditing and control are always charged to stop.

>>76
when was the last time your ghettos spilled over with rage and tens of thousands of cars were set on fire?

When those riots were going on, I asked my Paris friend how she felt about the situation...  she told me this was just the first time the american news had picked up on it.  It happens ALL the time, not that big, but there's a sustained civil war going on in France between the police and those ghettos.  Over 2,400 police officers wounded every year.  Yet somehow, France still manages to provide excellent health care to everyone and be ranked #1 in health care in the whole of the world, with a higher productivity rating than the united states of fail.

>>74
CAN = do the same fucking thing that less prosperous nations do with their health care system, with burdens and drains and sorrows all their own.

MUST = overcome this bullshit cowboy pioneer mentality from days of settlers and gunfights.  No longer can all the societal ills of the day be smothered up from the promised riches of just pushing a little further West.  You're no longer a settler people, you're a settled people, and it's time to grow up, sit down, and try to figure out how to make this whole "nation" thing work.

Some would call that socialism.  I call it necessity.

#78, #76's point was a bit more hidden.  He just doesn't want to provide "free" healthcare for the niggers he so despises that just cramming their Black asses into ghettos is insufficient to what he really wants to do with them.  Since a lot of racism in America is dressed up in nicer phrasing, he couldn't actually say that, however.

I'm darned curious, however:  are the ghettos in France large users of healthcare?  You might be able to tell from hospitals.  With exceptions, hospitals in America tend to be much nicer for White and wealthy folk, and are either missing or shitty in the Black/poor areas.  Some overlap with urban areas masks this trend.  What real healthcare is provided in the French ghettos (which from the reports are filled with Algerians and Pakistanis and other North African and Middle Eastern second-class citizens)?

Furthermore, #78, I get the feeling that you just didn't HEAR ME.  Hypercapitalists are in firm control of the USA and there's no real way to dislodge their vicious hold upon the national mechanism without resorting to outright civil war.  Americans are far too complacent with (even accepting of) the Imperial Model to ever fight back, regardless of how armed they are.  There's still plenty of food, gasoline, electricity and entertainments of all kinds.  We have a good 50 years of distraction before enough millions of Americans finally wake up poor, half-dead or full-dead, before Americans finally snap and start the shooting in earnest.

Since the Jews and WASPs with all the money have nearly complete control of the nation, there's not going to be any of your CAN/MUST wishful-thinking bullshit.  What WILL happen is all of my CAN/MUST plans.  Your insurance company is not going to cover your pre-existing condition, guy.  Michael Moore can vomit up 1 "Sicko" movie each year and that's not going to change.

What MUST change is that you either change your lifestyle or you fucking die.  If you don't fucking learn, then your death will cause your brother to learn; if HE doesn't learn, then HIS death will be a lesson for somebody else.  We've about 300 million people in the USA ... we can lose a few tens of millions to an UNhealthcare industry without people causing any significant fuss.

There's no getting around it ... and there's no great Cultural Revolution waiting in the wings to make your fairy-tale wishes become reality.

>>79
Recieving health care is France requires only French citizenship.  Because of the imperial chapter of their heritage, Algerians have a fast track to citizenship that many take advantage of.  Many people living in the French ghettos are not official citizens, compounded so by any attempts by French police forces to remove someone from the ghettos is accompanied by people bursting from any apartment building within view of a parked cop car, tearing the suspect back from their clutches.

These are the hallmarks of an underclass, and these are severe social calamities, but many, many Algerians have taken advantage of the citizenship available to them, and in turn taking advantage of the health care provided by France to every citizen.

I can't speak to the plight of the Pakistani or African immigrants from beyond the Algers...  but I suspect their circumstances do not defer much from any displaced people.

A difference, I think, between the situation in France and the situation in America is that France is struggling over the question of what to provide to these new citizens, rather than an underclass that was imported 400 years ago and ignored ever since.

Culturally, France is in much better shape to cope with the realities of a dynamic and changing world landscape.  The free flow of capital you've previously mentioned is indeed calamitous and vile, but money changing hands remains money.  Cultures flowing into places that can receive their vibrance and be duly invigorated.  That's what Renaissances are made of.  Algerians who do gain citizenship work hard, as hard as any immigrant who feels the nation around them is a place of opportunity that they've had to struggle to reach, rather than a place of opportunity one is born into and bored by because it is so very entitled to by birth... leading so many (4chan) to desperately distract themselves from life until they can finally die.

French literature, music, fashion, and business flourishes from this influx of energy and is all the stronger from it.  Try actually talking to someone from France...  or Europe in general.  If they've made it as far as where ever you're standing, chances are they're alive in ways you've never dared imagine.

>>80
That's funny, because I get the feeling you don't HEAR ME.  Hypercapitalists wish to commodify everything, do they not?  What more basic of a commodity would they seek then, if not human life?  When you commodify something, it's a simple matter of assigning a money value to it.  Not saving someone's life because it's not "worth it", or because they've brought those economic downturns upon themselves and you can't risk the terrifying prospect of it spreading across the rest of the Machine...  I honestly can't think of a example of your Hypercapitalism.

And as for a social revolution...  well, I suppose an american feels very revolutionary indeed when they actually start using the treadmill they bought off the TV 6 years ago and haven't used since... so I guess people actually demanding things from their democratic government and voting for the people who will comply, voting them out when they stray, and running for office themselves when they do not materialize...  You've had that big ol' treadmill gathering dust for quiet a while now, and it's sitting right there...

What's more fanciful?  An image of the Happy Meal generation erupting into a population of power walkers and aqua-yoga instructors, or people voting en masse for the representatives that wont let their children die?

You know, #81, it just occurred to me to notice that the previous assertion of "don't want to pay the hospital bills for ghetto wars" was not true.  I don't know why I missed it before.  We pay for ghetto shootings NOW.  Shots fired and people down in an American ghetto almost always results in the appearance of an ambulance.

That realization brings me back to what I've said before about American healthcare:  generally, we have a dishonest and underhanded form of socialized medicine.  This form is exercised in the emergency room at every hospital in the US.  With rare exceptions, those admitted with life-threatening wounds are treated, regardless of their ability to pay.  Eventually these stranded costs are passed onto other patients in the form of higher charges, or onto the taxpayer via government programs and tax-based adjustments.  If pursued for the costs of their care, the poor can just ignore the charges, and if better off they can just bankrupt (since care costs are so huge, they easily qualify the bankruptcy).

I know a man personally who ran up those kinds of bills.  That $180K worth of care was not paid by him; not dime one.  So, who paid it?  The state paid it, and hospital tax write-offs placed the further burden on state and national taxpayers.

Of course, there are many ways of adapting within such a system.  An emergency room is a great place to kill a nigger without being held responsible for it.  Just understaff, undertrain, overqualify ("just fill out these forms while we've stopped the bleeding for now"), and underequip.  A larger fraction of incoming patients will die on the table.

#82, where on Earth did you start thinking that Human life had such value in the West?  White folk have invented the most astounding and "conlific" forms of mass murder ever devised.  Underneath all those court battles, the cultural statement is clear:  who gives a fuck if you live or die.

Cultivating Human capital is just a concept around here.  Hidden again within it is the concept of CLASS.  Sure, the Human capital that's White, has the right last name, has lots of money and connections ... yeh, THAT GUY is deemed valuable and worth saving no matter what happens to him.  But start accumulating worthless characteristics like Blackness, poorness, and familial disenfranchisement, and you end up in the Human trash heap.

You really aren't addressing your comment to me.  Try instead talking to one of these fucking Hypercapitalists with your notions of "Human capital".  They'll probably regale you with carefully constructed stories about using overseas labor.  Once you start talking about the domestic natives, his smile will disappear and he'll place a quick call to building security to get your "pinko commie union leftie" ass out of his sight.  Those won't be my words, BTW; those will be his.  That's what his class of person thinks about the "rest of us".  99.9% of us are just scum to guys like that.

{snort}  Human capital.  What a laugh.

As for the treadmill ... clearly you've unwarrantedly discounted the fact that using a treadmill is work.  That is sits there does bother you, but that feeling can be suppressed with another beer and a night of football on the boob tube.

>>83
If people in power harboured such attitudes towards you and yours, wouldn't you be filled with a seething bloodlust from time to time?

>>84
I certainly hope the stories I'd be regaled with would be a bit more consistent than yours...  and perhaps mildly less absurd.

You start talking about human capital, when I was talking about human life, then finish off by snorting at human capital?  You're a deranged, prancing strawman without a brain.  I think it's high time you should be off to see the Wizard...  or have you already, but got lost along the way and ended up in front of the Grand Wizard?

As for the treadmill...  first you recommend a mass lifestyle change as the only solution, then deride it as impossible?  I still asserted that people voting for politicians that will oppose Hypercapitalism is far more realistic, as I do now, but you just grazed over that.

As for where I got the notion that Human Life means a damn in the West...  I guess I got distracted by every developed nation therein except the States, the ones with socialized health care, ya know?  Xenocentricity has, at its dark heart, Egocentricity, and therein you will find the heart of your Hypercapitalism Beast.  I'm sure the Thing appreciates your efforts here.

#86, Human life and capital are the same to the class of ruler that we're probably both discussing.  You seem to have a hard time accepting it.  I relate the attitudes of this ruling class and you assume that I hold my fellow man in the same contempt.  Relating a story is not the same as believing it or subscribing to its morality.

What is the mental problem you have with the difference between a recommendation, and the selfsame recognition that that recommendation is very likely going to be ignored?  Yes, people should be voting for more Humanistic politicians ... but THEY DON'T.  In America, the political system is essentially ruled by one party -- the Corporate War Party.  When it comes to the IMPORTANT things like "foreign relations" and "domestic economy", the Dems and Repubs are EXACTLY the same.  Anyone who tries to vote 3rd and other parties is swiftly classified as a loon ... hence they remain 99% marginalized in all elections at all levels of government.  The system is completely failsome and it's hard to put a stop to anything that's wrong, even evil.

I can only continue to insist that by the violence commonly expressed in the USA and the UK -- both within and aboard -- that Human life in those cultures has little value on average.  I already explained (as being self-evident) that the wealthy are the valued lives, whereas everyone else can take a snootful of some toxic pollutant and just die.  The masses can die under the Imperial bootheel and the media, academics, rules and "rube class" just won't care.  True, the "Rest of the West" (Franco-German Europe) does place more value on Human life, given their social programs ... with important exceptions like the darkies they import to perform nigger labor.  But millions more live in a brightly-lit Orwellian culture.

>>87
Seeing as how neither of us are the, I presume, in the ruling class, when I discuss human life, I find it out that you insist on viewing it in the terms of the ruling class and evaluating the right or wrongness of a thing on their terms.  I would once again request that you keep in mind we are discussing socialized medicine, and if we're talking about the "worth" of Human Life in regards to socialized medicine, then we can see how much value a nation places on said human life by how much the country is willing to spend to maintain and improve it through said health care... not grudgingly, like with your emergency room scenario, but WILLINGLY.

the UK has nationalized health insurance, so if a poor, fat, lazy, black citizen gets hit by a car, they are willing to spend whatever it takes to get him the appropriate care.  This means that the country is placing value on human life in general and keeping market interests at bay.  The same is true in every other developed European nation that seems to be off your radar, but remain fantastic places to live, from Sweden to Switzerland, Denmark and Belgium, Greece, Spain, Finland, WHATEVER.

I know you're just aching for idiotic excuses to toss around Orwellian terms and judge all these places you've never seen, where people are happy, healthy, strong and free, and that's just fine...  4chan isn't a place to acquire credibility, so naturally it doesn't matter losing it here either.

"I relate the attitudes of this ruling class and you assume that I hold my fellow man in the same contempt."
(pssst...  ruling class = racist)
(insert countless quotes here of your race hate)
RedCream = 99% fail, 1% lulz
Anon FTW

tl;dr: 

I DONT WANT TO HAVE SOCIALIZED MEDICARE BECAUSE I HATE BLACK PEOPLE

Well, #88, wouldn't it be nice if Americans suddenly stopped demonizing socialized medicine (or at least stop tolerating how their media and leaders demonize it) and actually expressed interest in the broad quality of Human life for once?  By "broad quality" I mean "not just defined by money".

There must be some sort of disconnect in our conversation since I have no doubt about the value of Human life as you repeatly point out.  But it's not up to me.  My political votes are worthless since all political choices are narrowed down to two anti-socialized-medicine candidates.  My monetary votes are also and already corrupted.  There are no "socialized medicine" hospitals that I could join, to underraise the revolution.

The environment of monetary and political force here is 99.9% monopolized by the Hypercapitalists who have big plans for the United States, but nowhere in those plans is there socialized medicine.  I don't know why you're pretending that that's not only a force to be reckoned with, but it's the ONLY FORCE in American socio-economics today.

Even worse, these Big Plans involve FURTHER privatization of American healthcare.  Note well from the Massachusetts model that they're doing the usual propaganda and distraction technique of making it look like they're implementing socialized medicine, but they're really only turning more and more of our wealth to the insurance companies (and other healthcare system elements) who own the politicians involved.

You continue to harp on what's going on in Europe, but that doesn't matter.  It doesn't matter how some vagrant is treated in Britain after an auto accident.  It doesn't matter if some Swiss citizen feels a pain in his abdomen, he goes to the local hospital immediately, finds he has an early-stage cancer node, and he's successfully treated within 30 days.  NONE OF THAT MATTERS ... since in America, their lives are nothing compared to the profits to be had in the current system of healthcare.  In America, it continues to be the truth that the vagrant is patched up and then turned back to the streets as soon as some profit-minded hospital administrator contrives some new excuse to do so.  In America, the abdomen-pain citizen does nothing since he can't afford to miss work for a little pain, or he can't afford to go to a clinic due to the fees; hence, his cancer worsens until it becomes obvious there's a real problem, and by that time the cancer is late-stage and he just dies anyway regardless of treatment.

#88, I'm only REPORTING the bad news -- I didn't make the news, I didn't create the circumstances of profits-over-lives, and I certainly don't support them.  But other than spend my time shooting insurance executives (which is an unworkable irony since I value Human life), what do you really expect me to do?  Shall I pull a $100B healthcare system out of my ass?  Shall I pull a floating nation out of my ass so I can finally enact sensible and Humanistic laws in that new society?  I don't have anything like those in my ass!

Well, how about emigrating?  Yes, that's what I'm personally planning on doing, for the long term.  It'll be very tough, but I plan on dying a SWISS citizen, not an American one.  (Becoming a Canadian is also an option, but Canucks obscenely don't like guns, and that's a huge problem for me.)

P.S.  You should pay strict attention to #89's comment since THAT sentiment is a significant factor in American life.  Lots of Whites don't want to pay for anything for Blacks since "nigger" is always just a breath away on their thin lips.  Again, I don't make that news; I'm just reporting it.  Learn the difference, willya?

>>90
If you could post pictures on here, I'd have one from the Sin City Marv vs Kevin fight, when he slaps the cuffs on him, and caption being "I gotcha ya little freak, let's see ya hop around now"

Have you only been reporting the news of your own incredible racist sentiments all over 4chan, namefag?  Reporting the news on how americans think Europe is all being thought controlled?  You've attacked socialized medicine over and over and over, and now you're saying that you're not attacking it, you're just pointing out how other forces are attacking it...  wow, I, and everyone else, totally didn't know that.  You bring such vital insight to these conversations.  Whatever would we do without you?

Sometimes it seemed as though you might have had a point you were getting across, but you just can't stick to anything before leaping away as soon as anyone gets close to pointing out you're wrong.

Fucking troll.

BTW, Sin City was a great series of comics and I greatly identify with that scene you mentioned ... just for other reasons.  Thanks for the visual, anyway.

I'm not attacking socialized medicine no matter how many times you accuse me of doing so.  My votes are used to wipe the asses of the elite who are very connected to the current way of delivering health care in America.  I find it shameful that the leading industrialized nation in the world leaves folks to die and suffer since it makes a few corporations more money that way.

BUT THERE'S NO SOLUTION IN AMERICA.  Anyone who suggests implementing REAL single-payer socialized medicine is as demonized as anyone is who dares to suggest we stop paying Israel.  As soon as say "socialized medicine", even the otherwise sane and well behaved folks start screaming "SOCIALIST PINKO COMMIE".  You can't make any headway since Americans value profits over Human life.  That's "Americans" -- people from all walks of life here in the US believe that the profit motive has supremacy over social decency.

Again, you keep thinking that reporting a fact is advocacy for that fact.  That's wrong as is so self evident.

The movement for healthcare in America is twofold:

1. More profiteering from ignoring the problem and enforcing a profit-aligned status quo, thus more death and suffering.  Within that environment, a tiny minority gets among the best healthcare to be found in the world.

2. More profiteering from implementing a Massachusetts Model of fooling the people with propaganda that only LOOKS LIKE socialized medicine.  In reality, the state aligns completely with the insurance companies and some real rape of the payer occurs.

AGAIN, I'm only reporting the news.  I don't want this form of healthcare for America.  I'm only 1 of a few million Americans who truly want single-payer, government-run, socialized medicine!  I'm OUTVOTED on this issue by a factor of 50 to 1.  So, what do you think I ought to do, Sparky?  Shoot the other 49?

>>92
yeah, I bet you're just dying for your tax dollars to go towards patching up niggers, hypocrite strawman fuck

Jackassfuckhole #93, the US Constitution recognizes a live birth as a citizen of the United States.  Nowhere in the amended version is there a specification for whether these citizens are niggers or not.  You're "projecting" ... projecting your virulent hatred of all things Negro.  A flaming Black cybercock should therefore enter your anus, and eject into your flashed-to-vapor guts about 12 pints of molten sodium (fresh from a reactor core's main cooling loop).

Hey Red, maybe >>93 is recognizing the Constitution's statements. He just feels that 2/5ths of these blacks should not be treated, as these parts simply do not count as citizens.

Plus, a cybercock doing that just isn't fun, you've essentially eliminated any chance of personal shame at being violated in such a way will register before death. Sloppy thinking, but I know you can do better.

Firstly, #95, I said "the amended version", which locks out that silly 5-count-as-3 specification.  I certainly saw that criticism coming, and I had no desire to take the sticky slap of it across MY chops, let me tell you.

The cybercock thing might be a good criticism.  Yet, there are details of which you are unaware.  Would it help if I told you that the cybercock was not autonomous, and there there was a live operator behind it?  Would you also accept as probable that the operator would be any ol' lil' nigger kid in an arcade, using the cybercock interface to enact the goatse-ing, while under the impression that Rape Whitey 2000™ was just a game?  A simple webcam pipes the operator's gleeful Blackface to a monitor setup especially for Jackassfuckhole #93 to enjoy ... well, before the molten salts convert his internal organs to dirty steam.

Not that I care to forcibly stick that argument in your craw, I am merely feeling like being especially pithy at the moment. I appreciate someone who, while I do not entirely condone your position, is capable of covering their ass in preparation for just such statements. Good show.

Speaking of asses and either the covering or vulnerability thereof, what type of restraining device is installed to say, prevent the victim from any number of cowardly acts of self-destruction to avoid a messy alkali death? Would there be a mechanical apparatus in place or does your plan call for hulking, dark men of Africa pinning #93 down, possibly with stun prods to forestall abovementioned self-destructive acts?

Well, that there's a bit of a problem, #97.  The cybercock is a highly technical piece of industrial apparatus, and due to the delivery medium, it is licensed as well.  It requires a specificity of care that's completely unknown to the ghettochimp.  Hence, a minimum of restraints is required, since no Black man is ever found near a piece of productive tech.  This has been the rule as I've observed it in my years of doing all kinds of tech work across America.  Tech belongs to the pasty white.

Once the restraints are in place (using a certified Physical Security Specialist), the finely-tuned cybercock uses a network of sensors to engage a set of 3D servomotors and actuators in order to line up with -- and mercilessly smash through -- the victim's tender rosebud.  I'm sure the victim would LIKE to choke down his own tongue to avoid such a fate, but the PSS requires about 6 months of training in restraints, so there's little risk of that happening.

While this does appear to be a truly miraculous piece of 21st century and finely crafted engineering, I pause to wonder; Is there a necessity to be aligned prior to the most unwelcome of intrusions? Save for the possibility of striking a nerve and rendering the victim incohate at best, unconscious at worst, I imagine that should any further implement of rectal rampage leading towards death fail, that simple septic shock from a ruptured colon would be acceptable. So long as the desired humiliation and not-so-gentle reminder of human mortality effect comes to be, smiles and handshakes should be given freely.

Merely an observation. Further queries are as follows: Has this device obtained its patent? Do you believe that this method of death should be used for capital offenses? What other caustic fluids would be acceptable, should sufficient amounts of molten sodium be lacking? Finally, have we shown enough distain to the opinions and halfhearted ramblings of those before us to allow this thread to die of terminal disinterest?

Actually, I think the device in question is a spinoff from another device used in the medical industry for colonic inspections.  Since death-by-lava-enema is an extremely restricted market, I don't believe a patent was accomplished.

There are similar instances of low-tech approaches to similar solutions throughout history.  One Roman soldier, for his punishment for some crime, was forced to imbibe molten silver ... which as you can imagine, killed him.  In fact, making prisoners drink molten metal has happened more than once, to wit:

http://www.folger.edu/html/newimages/INS0072.jpg

And introductory text for it:

"The widely circulated woodcut first published in Theodor de Bry's America Pars Quarta (1594), is surely the boldest restatement of the topos. In this strikingly graphic representation, probably crafted by the Huguenot artist Jacques Le Moyne de Mourges, vindictive Amerindians lay exemplary punishment upon captured Spanish soldiers, forcing them to drink the molten gold they so shamelessly coveted, literalizing their appetite for the precious metal in such a way as to provide the Iberians their poetical just deserts."

>>100
I really like how you can hold off on your blatant racism for one or two posts, but no more than that...  even in the face of your most favourite distraction, homo-erotic fancy involving gentlemen of colour.

Is this fine chan to believe that this can of reckless nonsense spews from someone who gives a damn about anything other than his vulgar, petty indulgences?  The same that feed all trolls...

You can't take sides in arguments which is why you never stick to a point.  Just another namefag

That you ever took any of that seriously, #101, shows that you fail.  Even a Jedi Youngling could whip your ass on that basis.