Socialized Medicine

We can't afford it.  Some people like Michael Moore say that we should just divert funding for the war toward Socialized Medicine, but the fact of the matter is is that we can't afford the war either.  We are already borrowing money to finance a lot of the dumb programs already in place.  Government spending is out of control, and we need to exercise budget restraint now, not consider new areas to increase spending.

Thanks for stating the obvious?

>>1
You apparently missed the fact that american medicine is the worlds most expensive as it is. Socializing it may actually make it cheaper as there are places on this earth with socialized medicine that are cheaper (%GNP/capita) and has higher quality (measured with WHO indexes).

#1, part of what you say makes sense.  Yes, just because a billion a week is misallocated to "Bush's Little War", doesn't mean that the money should be spent elsewhere.  However, when it comes to affording, we can't afford our current system either.  The USA is #1 in per-capita healthcare spending.  Yet, we're #37 in healthcare service.  That means that 36 other nations deliver better healthcare for less per-capita expense.  Who was the "best country on Earth", again?

We can't afford to CONTINUE using the current system, that's for sure.  That may not mean adopting socialized medicine as perhaps Canada does it, but it does mean regulating the insurance companies to put a stop to their predatory profiteering.

Socialized medicine. Next comes Two Minutes Hate. What a glorious thing to be a prole! Would I were a prole.

#5, you're surrounded with a lot of proles already.  The difference from the world of "1984" is that your culture steadily ignores their existence until riots happen.

P.S.  Despite the Hypersocialist vision of "1984", Britain still hasn't become Oceania to be always at war with Eastasia!  If there's a "next" for socialized medicine in the USA, it would have appeared in Europe by now.  Darn it, I know these points are never explored on Rush Limbaugh, but could you at least come up with something that I can't destroy in less than 30 seconds?

Rush Limbaugh? You always entertain, Redcream. Whichever Redcream you are. And hey, don't leave Eurasia out of the equation. Now I'll skip the sarcasm and get to something more fun.

What could you not destroy in thirty seconds...that's tough. I'll concede ground this time. The first Redcream I came across would crush me in a debate, and I know when it is prudent to accept tactical defeat to ensure strategic victory. There's nothing wrong with the Fabian policy.

Have a good'n.  

{tip o' the hat}

>>8
Quoi?

I've never understood why people think socialised medical services will be helpful. Insurance is not actually beneficial, the more capacity you have to pay, the more capacity the doctors have to charge. The medical system would actually be much better off if insurance and health care didn't exist all together.

Medicine would also be cheaper if the government would stop their price controls. I know a guy who goes two states over to get his prescriptions, because the same prescription is 400 dollars more in his state, where there are price controls.

I know a guy who goes two states over to get his prescriptions, because the same prescription is 400 dollars more in his state, where there are price controls.
How do I cherry-pick examples?

Typical Yank. The US is the world!

>>6
You should reread 1984 as you have clearly confused some of its message. Oceania is not socialist, its what Orwell (who was an ardent socialist) thought stalinism would lead to. Yet there were no other types of societies, america had also become a big brother state as Oceania, meaning that stalinism is not the only system that can lead to 1984, in Orwells opinion. Stop raping him, it makes it hard for him to sleep.

#12, you fail it, since the militarized world envisioned by Orwell is EXACTLY where all that Neo-Liberalism leads to.  You say Oceania is not Socialist?  Well, it sure as hell ended up where modern Socialism and Capitalism want to go.  If anything, THAT was Orwell's point.

Your 11th grade English teacher couldn't admit anything like that, I'm sure.  Look up the "Wiemar Republic"; your public-school teachers sure as FUCK didn't want you understanding where the American Republic was going to end up.

>>11
Being as how I can no longer differentiate sarcasm from honest sentiment on these boards I am going to assume you mean what you say.  As such, how else are we supposed to make decisions on policy apart from our personal experiences with the outcomes?  Are you saying that if everyone gets together and believes really hard the outcome will be any different?

In regards to my first comment I think there is a case for this politics board to be considered a form of high art.   So many confused angry and strong opinions all at odds with one another.  You can't even tell someone you agree with from someone you don't in the anonymous setting.  It's truly bewildering.

>>14
Because personal experiences -- aka anecdotal evidence -- is worth diddle shit. I can prove the US never went to the moon with anecdotal evidence if I wanted to.

See, thanks to your wonderous bullshit conclusion based on only one observation, I can trivially disprove you sweeping conclusion: http://www.house.gov/cummings/pdf/intl.pdf  <-- Took me five seconds to find that! Hard!

tl;dr: come up with more robust empirical observations, kthx dumb Yank.

>>13
Orwell was a socialist, you idiot. He did not mean socialism leads to 1984. You are trying to make him a mouthpiece for your agenda, but you would do better by using Ayn Rand or whoever else libertards like to read. Again, after me, George Orwell was a socialist, he did not mean socialism would lead to 1984.

>>13
So Orwell the Socialist writes a book about what Socialism leads to and ends up with 1984? A book that's clearly NOT a suggestion but a WARNING? Hmm.

>>17
As I said, its not a warning about socialism but stalinism AND capitalism. Orwell had encountered stalinism in spain while fighting with POUM and he had been scared of it. Read Homage to Catalunya to understand.

stalinism = socialism
You fail, good day sir.

>>19
Not in Orwells head. Which should be self evident.

Stalinism is not socialism.  Also, aside from Homage to Catalunya, you should read The Road To Wigan Pier, which quite clearly outlines Orwell's thoughts on Socialism.

Orwell was a socialist. 

the fact that the US is borrowing money is just a signal of where they are on the trad cycle
the loans are likely on a low interest rate and it is unlikely that the US would default on any loans it takes
social healthcare is well within the reach of the US government it only costs the UK $80 billion out of the tax budget to provide health care to its 75 million citizens

>>19
socialism = public ownership of some things...  that's why america has a "socialized" postal service and "socialized" police and fire departments.  Fire departments used to be private enterprized, eh?  You'd have the logo for the department on your own that you subscribed to, and if it was there and you weren't late on your payments, they would put it out.  If you didn't or you weren't, they would let it burn down.  AWESOME eh?

Stalinism: single party control of freakin' everything.  Stalin engineered famines and had his political revivals killed, he didn't try to sit down and figure out how to make things work.

And that's what socialism really is...  sitting down with everything you know and have access to and trying to figure out how to make a nation, as a system, function towards certain goals.  You want everyone to be able to see a doctor if they're sick?  You find money for it and you do it.  You want to build a massive highway system that will make it so people can drive around and move things?  You figure it out and find the money somewhere.  Notice how GM and Ford don't pay for the upkeep of the highways, your tax dollars do?  You're already driving on socialized roads, dummie.

If stalinism = socialism then capital = fascism and anarchy = care bear count down five four Three Two ONE!!!!!!!!!!!

Clearly, what you said is nonsense

>>23
How do I wrote incoherent bullshit?

>>24

Um. That was extremely coherent. Well...at least I understood it. Maybe you should re-read and rebut?

>>1 - >>25
faggotry.

We can't afford health care whether it's socialized or not.  The United States is filled with lard-asses who don't care about their health until it's too late.  Our medical system will never be worth 2 shits until we change our culture and focus on preventative measures and education.

Also, no one cared about this bull shit until a bunch of loud-mouthed assholes started screaming it from the rooftops.  Don't act like you care about "health care for everyone" if you weren't even thinking about 10 years ago.

I'm in kanada, buddy... people are fat asses here too.  Moore's movie was way off when it came to hospital wait times...  45 minutes to an hour... that's just bullshit, you're going to wait at least an hour or two during the day, and it can get insane at night.  My friend's appendix was going to burst and he waited in agony in the hospital waiting room for 5 hours before we could get help for him.  But you know what?  The care we eventually got was great, took care of everything, and didn't cost us a dime... and our economy sucks compared to yours.

In a developed country, there's no excuse for health care to be denied to anyone, and the US is the only developed nation in the world that would think to deny.  Crazy bullshit cowboy mentality is just making a bunch of rich guys laugh at you.

Socialized healthcare is the first step to regulated lifestyle.
You won't be allowed to smoke anymore because chemotherapy costs too much.
Same goes for drinking. Hamburgers are bad, too, so no more fast food.
Those stupid eurofags bitching about fat americans is a preview of the future.
You eat a steak - you go to jail.

>>28
DRINKING WATER IS THE FIRST STEP TO BECOMING A HEAVY ALCOHOLIC GUYZ!

Slipper-slope arguments are for morons.

>>29

Oh hey, lets look at Europe.
Advertisement for cigarettes is banned. All manufacturers must print SMOKING IS BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH on each package.
Also cigarettes are heavily taxed.
Isaiah Berlin foretold this when distinguishing between positive and negative liberty.
But you welcome a communist nannystate, don't you?

>>28
France and the UK has socialized health care, people drink, smoke, do drugs, and rebel against their governments like crazy.  I live in Canada, we have socialized health care, I smoke half a pack a day and I'm 6'4 and 300lbs, more than 100 of it I could stand to loose.  That's right....  over 1/3 of me is cheddar cheese and mayonaisse, and I'm a free man, bound only by my petty vices.

PRIVATIZED health care is the first and only step towards a profit driven health care system.

Sicko: hey, why are my insurance rates going up?
HMO: oh, well, we know we can charge you more because the free market says you can't get a better price for the same coverage some where else
Sicko: oh... so you're going to use that money to help more people?
HMO: what?  no, we're keeping it.
Sicko: keeping it... in case there's a health crisis?
HMO: no, we want to have lots of money.
Sicko: well... I need this treatment or I'm going to die.
HMO: that's great, but you're not covered for that.
Sicko: oh... well I want to live some more, can I have it anyway?
HMO: No.
Sicko: But I'm going to die.
HMO: yeah, but saving your life would cost us money, and we want to keep the money, so unless there's some kind of contract that forces us into helping you, we're not going to.  That way we get more money:D

You want to rebut?  Rebut this: PROFITS = LOSS

The excess money HMO's have at the end of the year?  It just disappears, they keep it.  It's not an institution designed to help people and get them to live longer, it's an institution designed to make money, as much as possible.  They have a legal obligation to their shareholders to make decisions that will maximize the amount of money that just disappears into profits.  If the CEO of an HMO decided to start giving people treatments they weren't covered for, he'd be fired, and maybe sued.

Canada (land where we have the exact same fucking fast food restaurants you guys do...  your filthy culture seeps across the border like pus) has socialized medicine and fat people the same!! And all the freedoms that the lack of a PATRIOT ACT entitles!!

Sicko:  hey, I gotz teh cancers
Comrade Nurse: got your OHIP card? XD
Sicko: Oh, the Ontario Health Insurance Plan card, that every citizen in the province has?
Comrade Nurse: Da, sickozsky!
Sicko: I sure do ^_^  Can you give me expensive treatments?  I have no money...
Comrade Nurse: hahaha, having no money doesn't mean you deserve to fucking DIE!!  What do you think this is, AMERICA?!?!
Sicko: HAHAHAA
Comrade Nurse: HAHAHAHAH
WHOLE FUCKING WORLD: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAA

>>31

Oh boy, dumb examples and faulty logic.
You, sir, are a true master of asshattery!

>>30
Cigarettes?!  Heavily taxed/!??!  Omg I bet they spend the money on vodka and big stupid furry hats!!!!

Oh wait, no, it goes to cover the health care costs of smokers...  so it's almost as if you're paying for your health care... with taxes....  and when you get lung cancer, you get taken care of... BAFFLING

We have the same smoking laws in Canada... and oooooh, it is truly anguishing to not be advertised to by tobacco companies (which actually helps the companies... those advertisements don't convince people to smoke, they're targeted at smokers of rival brands.  So the tobacco industry gets to save millions upon millions each year but not having to compete with each other through advertisements).  And the packages don't say SMOKING IS BAD FOR YOU, they say DON'T SMOKE AROUND YOUR KIDS, DON'T SMOKE WHEN YOU'RE PREGNANT, OMG LOOK AT THESE GROSS CIGARETTE TEETH, and so forth...  that's a nannystate?  I'm smoking right now and life is good, bitch...

And if the eurofags are under such a horrible nannystate regime, how come they have way more relaxed drug laws than you bible thumpers?  and if Europe is communist, how come more billionaires live in London than any other city in the world?

Freedom? oh freedom... that's just some people talkin'.  Your prison is walkin' through this world all alone.

>>32
what, pray tell, are these faulty logics, good sir?   what is it you're having trouble getting your mind around?  "pfft, NO" is actually not a rebuttal.  If you disagree for any other reason than ronald reagan told you to, let's hear it coward.

>>33
dontcha FEET GET COLD IN THE WINTER TIIIIIME
Your sky wont snow and your sun wont shiiiine
It's hard to tell the night time from the daaaaaaaaay

You're boozin' all your highs and lows
Aint it funny how the feeling goes... awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay?

Come back when you acquired some experience in politics, underage troll.

>>36
ad hominem fallacy

GTFO nigger

>>38
this is why you're the laughing stock of the world.  you're all trapped in the belly of that horrible machine you call a nation, and the machine is bleeding to death.

GTFO nigger