debt ceiling

it really boggles my mind that something like 60% of polled americans are opposed to raiseing the debt ceiling, and also that a plurality of voters view obama as to blame for this debt ceiling crisis.

so i am curious not so much as to your opinion on what is going to happen, but as to your opinion on how the american people, or people across the world will percive it? do you think that americans are really stupid enough to fall for the republicans destroying the economy to make obama look bad?

People are retards op. They'll believe anything as long as it is repeated ad nauseam

The state will fall, raising it will only delay the inevitable.

>>3
So there's no reason to not raise it then right?

>>2
what this anon said. sadly enough, American people are on average, easily swayed by what they see on television. it saddens me that this is what we are now: cattle and sheep

I think Obama did a great job fucking up the economy on his own. It's funny how the liberal controlled news media is suddenly described as a proxie of the far right when the narrative no longer agrees with their opinions. 

It sucks when shit starts to add up and cheesy slogans like "Hope and Change" aren't enough to mislead the sheeple anymore.

the liberal controlled news media is suddenly described as a proxie of the far right
Keep up the good fight conservatard. Beat those liberal strawmen down!

You should only take out loans when returns on your investment exceed interest payments in the long term.

>>8
Indeed. And if we could just predict the future, it would be so easy!

The problem with raising the debt ceiling is that it doesn't deal with the real problem -- we're broke and we keep spending like paris hilton.  And what the debt ceiling does is simply allow us to spend even more money we don't have.  As it stands we're $14 trillion in debt -- and that number is growing by the second.  there is no way that we can pay off the debt NOW, let alone afford to spend even more money.  I think the aver age family of four' share of the debt is $40+ thousand, which is impossible.  even if we took everyone's money -- all of everyone's money -- we'd still owe shittons of money. 

The only good thing to come out of this debt ceiling debate is that the republicans are demanding huge spending cuts.  I just pray they have the balls to call obama's bluff, or we'll default.

>>10
Huge spending cuts are great but don't raise taxes on the wealthy. Got it.

>>10
Because cutting spending right now wouldbt endanger a fragile recovery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_federal_budget
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_United_States_federal_budget

If you take a brief look, you'll see Unemployment benefits just skyrocketting, while tax revenue plunging.

Deficits are normal in recession. They're automatically supposed to be created.

In order to solve this debt crisis, we first need to get our country out of high unemployment and on a normal growth rate. Flat growth in GDP, unemployment, and rock bottom inflation and interest rates suggest we're becoming like Japan.

Once we get the economy fixed, we can start talking about our long term budget problems. We should let the Bush tax cuts expire, and enact more Health Care reform so costs are lowered. That really solves a huge chunk of the deficit.

I can't speak about wars. We're already in it. I think strategy and our national security should be handled by the people who know best, and not be based on our financial situation.

Somehow, some where along the last decade or so. I feel as if America has made some cardinal sin against democracy - as electing a leader that wasn't even voted in; everything just snowballed from there. 9/11, Iraq, the Recession, rising oil prices, etc.

I feel that is Gore was elected in 2000, none of this would happened and America would be enjoying a healthy future. Sure, I'm beating the dead horse here, but it's something to think about - this chain of bullshit was preventable.

>>14
While I doubt that democracy is sentient or has a will against those who disobey it, I do think that once you open the floodgates to rogue ideas that harm the system, it's impossible to get rid of them.

>>14
Economically, we'd still be in the same boat. We might not have invaded Iraq. 9/11 would have still happen.

>>12
So feeding the cancer makes more sense. If you're spending money you know you can't afford to ever pay back, you have problems a lot bigger than a recession.

There is a difference between using a credit card in desperate times and trying to live like a millionaire by maxing out other peoples credit cards and then lying about it.

>>9
We do have some capacity to predict the future, it's called "risk assessment", and if taking a loan is too risky we shouldn't do it. Also there is a dynamic at work here, at a certain point paying off the loan to reduce interest is more profitable than investing in the economy, also I question the need for the government to decide to take loans and make investments on our behalf (even through lowering taxes as opposed to white elephant schemes like "cash for clunkers") in the first place.

Do I have to do all the thinking for you?

>>17
Your analogy is false. The US economy is not a cancer. If anything it's the healthy cells we want to protect from cancer.

>>18
This too is a false analogy. Government spending is different than a typical investment. Risk assessment on investing in things like war, education or making medical care more affordable is damn near impossible and clouded by politics.

>>20
Risk assessment on education and medical care is clouded by politics? At least try not to look like a retarded Tea Party crony and admit that a skilled and healthy labor force which is mostly paid for by ITSELF is a good thing for any corporation.

Those 1917 Russians seemed pretty legit for a couple decades there, wouldn't you agree, comrades?

>>21

Strike that, posted in the wrong thread.

>>20
I agree with you on your examples. But it's difficult to even quantify risk and reward on the overall wellness of a society. Everyone has a different idea of what a better America would look like. So explain to me how that doesn't make the issue clouded by politics? Just try telling a Tea Partier that Obamacare will reduce the defecit and you'll see!

>>19
Actually, the deficit is the cancer. You can eliminate it simply by controlling spending. The analogy is true.

The government is by far outspending more than it can bring in.

>>24
Fine. Then severe spending cuts are chemo, worse than the disease.

I don't get it. Are Americans so stupid that the Republicans will vote down any plan and then point their fingers at Obama for the shit that happens from defaulting?

>>26

yes

>>27

but i am curious,  do you think most people will fall for it?

Republicans are offering bill's, 5 total so far, and all of them have been vetoed by Obama. Republicans are now calling for Obama to release his plan, but he has not answered this plea for the last 3 days. Obama continues to blame bush for all of his problems. Yes bush is partly to blame, but really it is the American trend in spending that we have allowed to occur in the last 40 years. Also, it is the democrats in the senate that announced yesterday that they would not allow any bill from the house that didn't raise taxes to pass. Here lies the problem of federalism, checks and balances produce major gridlock.

>>26
What plan? Obama has no plan. The Democrats in the senate dropped the ball and ran away from their responsibility as fast as they could. They don't want to take the heat for the cuts that will have to happen anyway. They'd rather exploit it.

Seriously, you've described the exact opposite of the situation. Do you even watch the news?

Even Jon Stewart admits Obama isn’t taking his own advice. Obama seems lost and confused.

>>30
>>29
>>31

>_> Obama, Reid, Senate Democrats, and Biden have all submitted detailed plans.  Wtf are you guys smoking?

>>30



from tpm:


It is not partisan or spin to say that the Democrats have repeatedly offered compromises. The real driver of the debate is that the fact that Republican majority in the House can't agree to win. Even Fred Thompson is urging Republicans to declare victory and get out. But that's the point. Their leaders cannot control their caucuses. The real problem at the moment isn't that neither side's caucus can accept the other side's 'plan'. The real issue is that Speaker Boehner doesn't have the votes in his caucus for his own 'plan'.

Do you even watch the news?
What news network do you typically watch?

obamay is stoopid and needs to stfu

>>32
source please

I like Obama's idea of compromise: give me what I want or nothing gets done because I and I alone know what's right and you're wrong by default if you disagree.


....................all while ignoring the fact that the stupid asshole's wild spending like there's no tomorrow in his first two years in office only to ultimately not help the economy and instead make wall street richer at the expense of making America poorer is what led to this situation with the US being bankrupt.

Actually, Obama and Democrats haven't actually pushed real budgets. They simply waited for the Republican's plan and went on the attack instead. Even the lefty news media admits this.

The liberal progressives in the Democrats have shown us that they really can't handle simple things.

The Dems have the Senate and the WH. I don't understand why they sit there doing nothing everyday.

It's sweet to see America crumble. You elected Bush not only ONCE, but TWICE, so you burn in hell. I'll bring hotdogs to roast.

I like Republicans' idea of compromise: give us what we want or nothing gets done because we and we alone know what's right and you're wrong by default if you disagree.


....................all while ignoring the fact that the stupid assholes' wild taxs cuts for the rich and two wars with an imaginary enemy only to ultimately not help make us safer and instead make wall street richer at the expense of making America poorer is what led to this situation with the US being bankrupt.

The republicans compromised. They went from refusing to raise the debt ceiling at all to a short-term raise to it because they're smart enough to know that you don't get us out of debt by borrowing more money, so we need to limit taking on more debt before America becomes FUBAR.


Obama and his henchmen haven't given an inch, and they'll drag the country to ruins before they give in because they're fucking arrogant and think they're absolutely right and everyone else is wrong. And in case if you ahven't paid any attention to the news, the democrats have made it clear to the media and in letters to republicans that they're not compromising at all. It's their way or bye-bye America.

Obama caused this mess with his gross spending in his first two years. Small and mid-sized businesses employ more Americans than large corporations do, yet Obama threw them under the bus while giving massive bailouts to the very fuckers who caused the meltdown in the first place. Now he stands stupid with wondering why no jobs are being created and the economy goes to shit while Wall Street keeps on getting richer when the answer is fucking obvious. In case people are are too stupid to remember, remember 2 years ago when they were bailing out the financial giants, how half the small local banks in this country were forced into closure? And in case you never go outside, millions of small businesses all over America folded. That's what happens when you throw the real backbone of the American economy under the bus to focus on the giants who caused this mess in the first place.

Obama is doing this on purpose. He wants to break America so he can force it into such a state of poverty that the government has "no choice" but to rob and steal from everyone who has anything.

This is why anyone who voted for Hope and Change needs to be kicked in the cunt. They wrote a blank check to an effeminate negro who was part of the corrupt Chicago political machine. He never had a real job.

You'll be luck if any of us have real jobs by next year. Thanks liberals!

>>40

If you want the American government to burn in hell, awesome.  If you want the American PEOPLE to burn in hell, that includes innocent bystanders and starving children in trailer homes, I think there's some kind of man riding a nuclear warhead waving his cowboy hat who may in fact be you.

Debt ceilings are one thing, tuning in to the great media machine and pretending they're always right is a whole different load of shit.  Lose the conformist attitude, cut the cable, spamguard news websites and burn the newspaper to exorcise those evil news demons, then get an Xbox360 and play Halo: Reach.  IT'S GOOD FOR YOU!!!

Btw I think I smell a diarrheic fart coming from your ass... *BBBBBBBFFFFFFFFFFFFFOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*  PHEW WHAT A FUCKING STINK!!!!!

>>1
I enjoy the way the Tea Party raping the Republican party over the budget issue. Boehner almost sold us out.

It's nice to see people standing up for a balanced budget. That's all the people want. I think we're all sick of Obama's scams.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt5OE3_3zvM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_LQtXytLTQ

Real conservatives would want to raise the debt ceiling. Real conservatives are against radicalism, are against chaos.

Real conservatives are people like Edmund Burke, Otto von Bismarck, and John Maynard Keynes.

People who blame Obama and the Dems for the delays on the raising of the debt ceiling are being shown how silly that is, as the GOP won't even vote on their own plan as they do not have the votes--this is because the GOP has gone full retard and is splintered over what is essentially a pretty mundane task that has been accomplished many time before.

I sure hope everyone eats crow and just signs off on something, but either way i'd expect this to hurt the GOPs chances of holding any House or branch of the gov't come 2012.

>>48
It's also silly in the fact you don't even consider the President or the Democrat controlled senate to have any responsibility in the budget crisis. For how long have we been operating in the red under Dems rule?

It's always a blame game with you guys and the second that someone tries to fix the crap you created, you suddenly go on the attack.

All these Dems and not a one trying to balance the budget.

Doing the right thing means that you might have to do things that make cost you. Balancing the budget and trying to fix the problem isn't going to be a pretty sight. Politically, anyone who tries is committing suicide.  Yet, doing nothing means that the nation is doomed.

Obama and the Dems have no reason to fix the problem. They are parasites that feed off our misfortune.

since Reagan it's been a wall street guvmint

Writing in his autobiography, An American Life, Reagan said, “I don’t think that we’ll solve the problem of the deficit until three things happen: We need more discipline on spending in Congress. We need a Constitutional Amendment requiring Congress to balance the budget. And we need to give our presidents a line item veto.”

Reagan tried to get a balanced budget Amendment. Democrats voted it down. The Cut, Cap, and Balance plan was his idea.

Maybe I'm just totally ignorant about this stuff, but I literally don't understand why congress isn't raising the debt limit. I keep hearing that the debate is over spending, but the debt limit is the debt limit, it isn't the budget. If the Republicans want to cut government spending, then why don't they just pass legislation that cuts spending? Raise the debt limit so that the government doesn't default, and then once that is accomplished, cut spending.

Raising the debt limit allows the government to borrow more money, yes, but that doesn't mean that you actually have to legislate more spending. If they don't want to do that, then why don't they just, you know, NOT do that?

>>19
>clouded by politics
That's the problem, both parties benefit from inflated government spending so neither are willing to quantify the benefits of providing all these services to ignorant poor people, for instance education spending has continued to increase even though grades haven't improved since the 70s and there is little correlation between spending and grades between states. If I were tasked with increasing the nations's IQ I wouldn't increase education funding, I'd only let university graduates, asians and whites immigrate to the country and fire teachers if any of their students fail literacy or numeracy tests at the end of the year.

For how long have we been operating in the red under Dems rule?
Two years. And they had the largest recession since the great depression to deal with. The Bush tax cuts and war got us into this. You're delusional if you think otherwise.

>>54
You have a good point in that simply spending on education won't fix the problem but your solutions are retarded.

>>42
The dems compromised too. They went from not wanting to make cuts at all to agreeing to cut more than republicans demanded.

>>53

then why don't they just pass legislation that cuts spending?
Because they can't on their own. They're using the debt ceiling as a bargaining chip. That's been the plan all along.

>>49
>>56
>>56


why do you think we need to keep the debt ceiling low? gw kush raised the debt ceiling like 19 times, that is what really is mystifieing to me, is how anyone can think that it is more important to keep the debt ceiling low, then to end the recession. economic growth is tangible, the debt ceiling is a meaningless abstract. the only reason you have to pay off your debt is becuase you will oneday die, but the federal goverment can keep extending that debt forever, it is not bound by the same concepts of budget as a private individual.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

Why is it that Bush was to blame when he was president, and now that Obama is president, Bush is to blame again?  Something tells me that the person to blame is the last Republican president in office for you dems..  Turn your brains off autopilot for a sec, would ya?  We're heading towards a mountain.

>>60
Why? Because he really did start this mess.

>>45
The majority of the american people voted for Bush, and those who didn't, and who can't move out of the country before it's too late, I consider sacrifices for a good cause.

>>60
I'm guessing you're too you to have really experienced bushes presidency. A lit of our problems can be directly traced back to bush.  After our country was put into surplus bush enacted major tax cuts (creating a deficit in peacetime for the sole purpose of relieving taxes which predominately affect the wealthy). Started two wars of choice, created Medicare part D and no child left behind.  He cut taxes a lot and ramped up spending a lot.  He doubled our national debt while simultaneously enacting policies which would lead to the financial collapse.

>>60
Bush nationalized banks.

this mess is a long time coming, as well as more in the future. americans have lived beyond their means for a long time

dont forget about the wall street bailout.. AIG  etc. how much did that cost??? and who scared congress into it? BUSH

and who scared congress into a war with IRAQ? BUSH
how much is that still fucking costing us???

>>66
Who is keeping us in Iraq and Afghanistan for years despite implying we'd leave? OBAMA!

Who illegally attacked Libya without OUR permission? OBAMA!

Who supported and voted for the bailouts? Who's administration oversaw, implemented, and fucked up the bailouts? Who keeps wasting money on stimulus packages that conveniently went to his political allies? Who wasted 3 years ignoring real problems while he played golf? Who fucked up our health care? Who was supposed to fix Bush's problems? 

Seriously, Bush was an angel to the corrupt negro we have now. It's 2011 retard. Obama failed.

So who all here think that Dems are going to fuck us over and pull another fast one on us again?

>>67
Hmm, final Iraqi troops coming home at the end of the year, drawdown in Iraq to pre-obama levels by next summer with a continued drawdown

Bush, stimulus is considered a success, everyone takes occasional breaks, Obama has been particularly productive as president.  Also 99% of the healthcare bill hasn't even gone into effect so I don't know why you say Obama "fucked up" our healthcare system when it was already broken and the fix that you so despise hasn't been implemented yet.

The ignorance is strong with this one.

Oh and he didn't illegaly attack Libya. it was all well within presidential powers.

Let the muthafucka burn.

>>69
Doh, draedoen in Afghanistan to contingency through his presidency*

America's goin' down.  I personally blame our disgusting sympathies to caretake to the needs of the lazy rather than reward the deserving.  Obama's not too cool either, but neither was Bush, Clinton was an idiot playboy, Bush Sr. was the role-model for his baby boy, and so forth down the line.

Someone figure out how to get Nixon back in the game.  If America's circling the drain, might as well have an ugly dude be responsible.  Shit, that's how elections work now anyway.

lazy
Sure, because that's the only reason possible that someone could be at a disadvantage.

I'm not American and the fact that 60% of people don't want to raise the debt ceiling tells me americans are not stupid, at least not in principle.

They want what anyone else wants, to end with corruption and overspending. They also see that if the debt doesn't stop piling on, they will face higher taxes. It's the only way the government will pay anything, levying taxes.

Not american here. As far as I see from here, your main problem with money are ongoing wars.
Can't you just leave from Afganistan and Iraq? You probably won't even need to borrow money anymore.

where do you get these poll numbers from?

We are never going to pay china back. I'm not sure we ever intended to. Good.

Most polls indicate that very few people have any interest in raising taxes with our taxes already being high as they are. 

Obama should have went after tax loopholes and tax shelters that allow the wealthy to dodge taxes. Raising taxes on the private sector is simply going to stagnate job growth and benefits.

Case in point, the medical equipment tax that fucked medical companies and everyone else. We lost a lot of jobs for no fucking reason because liberals got greedy and stupid.

>>78
Don't worry. We're sending all of our jobs there and buying all of their crappy products.

>>76
The wars actually are a drop in the bucket. It's the entitlements that are sinking the boat. The wars didn't help. In the end, the government has become massive in size and scope. Our economy is shrinking while the government is growing infinitely.

Anyone who tries to address the problem gets attacked as a right-wing terrorist.

I don't get why you guys even have a debt ceiling in the first place.  As far as I'm aware, everywhere else just issues bonds, and their debt is limited by the market's willingness to buy them.

Also
>taxes high
>top marginal rate 37%

My money's on this situation being resolves in the same stupid way as every other stand-off with the current Republican grouping - the government will cave into their demands *again*.  Personally I'd have preferred Obama to simply raise the ceiling to some stupid figure by EO and let people fight it out in the courts after the fact meanwhile the government can actually get on with fixing things.

>>81
>wars
>single biggest increase in expenditure in the Bush years
>drop in the bucket
Sure is derp in here

News coming through now.  By the looks of the limited information on the deal we've got so far, it appears that what's happened is that the Democrats have fucking bottled it AGAIN, and given the Republicans almost everything they wanted, including the deal ending before the election, and reducing the numbers involved to $1tr, even though the Democratic proposal would have meant MORE cuts, which is what the Republicans wanted in the first place.

Fucking idiots.

Republicans and Tea Party fags are completely opposed to any taxes, social security, and paying the troops. They want everything to be controlled by private monopolies who are accountable to nobody. Blame them, not the Democrats.

30% flat tax for people over poverty level.
End wars and downsize military to a domestic defense force.
Tax religion.
End corporate socialism, especially bailouts.
????
Profit.

>>86

Not profit, but you could go down to a 20% flat tax, probably.

>>40
I never elected Bush. The American people don't even technically elect our presidents. Thanks for the vitriol though.

I want to erase our debt and create an emergency fund. And buy China.

>>86
30% flat tax for people over poverty level
Partial agreement, the 30% sum is a bit arbitrary though I agree with the idea that some people shouldn't be taxed, if you're going to put that much effort into enforcing minimum wage, benefits and welfare it doesn't make sense to then tax them. It's like digging a hole and filling it in again.

End wars and downsize military to a domestic defense force
Partial agreement, we don't need 20 aircraft carriers but pacifism is for retards.

Tax religion
Partial. Only regular taxes everyone else has to pay and they should be treated like a business if they charge a fee to enter the place of worship. Any charity they conduct should be tax deductible.

End corporate socialism, especially bailouts
100% agreement. Enough said.

????
?

Profit.
Nothing wrong with a bit of profit on the side.

>>90
nothing wrong with a bit of profit on the side.

I beg to differ. There may be a lot wrong with it.

>>90
|Nothing wrong with a bit of profit on the side.

According to the liberal progressives, you just committed an act of terrorism, racism and stealing from the poor somehow at the same time by saying that.

The profit thing was just a joke. Somehow people read "politics" but think "invitation to jackassery."

>>90


i disagree with the idea of taxing people who are at 110% of the poverty level the same as people who are 10,000% above the poverty level.

i agree that people whoa re in poverty should not be taxes, however, i think the poverty level should be raised.

for example, i made something like 25 last year, and had to pay taxes, i think i should legally be poor.

>>93
joke
DUH

>>92
According to the liberal progressives, you just committed an act of terrorism, racism and stealing from the poor somehow at the same time by saying that.
[rem]
liberal progressives
What exactly is a "liberal progressive"? A social democrat? A Green Party voter? A democratic socialist? If you're thinking of the typical Democratic Party voter, that more often than not doesn't apply. The Democratic Party (minus a few actual leftists) is generally a center-right party (when scaled on a sane left-right political scale).

>>96
A liberal progressive is a liberal who claims to be a 'progressive' because the word liberal has slowly become a dirty word over the years. They imply that they are going forward mentally somehow, and as such, are always right and never wrong...because they are progressive. In other words, you can't disagree with them because you're admitting you want to live in the dark ages or something like that. I'm not making this up.

Please note, that the literal meanings of the terms have little to do with the political realities of the groups and sub-groups they represent.

The Democrats are to the left. The Blue Dogs center left. Liberals are the far left. Obama isn't anything other than an empty suit surrounded by a Chicago born political machine that is corrupt beyond human imagination. He's a political chameleon that will do whatever gets him the votes and power. I stopped caring when I realized he was Bush 2.0.

>>94

I agree in theory, but in practice, trying to make a taxation more progressive usually results in smart accounting finding loopholes for the superrich. How about we remove the need for accountants and lawyers to pay taxes?

Also, we're dealing with percentages, not amounts. Perhaps raise the poverty level to account for inflation

>>97
A liberal progressive is a liberal who claims to be a 'progressive' because the word liberal has slowly become a dirty word over the years. They imply that they are going forward mentally somehow, and as such, are always right and never wrong...because they are progressive. In other words, you can't disagree with them because you're admitting you want to live in the dark ages or something like that. I'm not making this up.
You have a source to back this up?
Please note, that the literal meanings of the terms have little to do with the political realities of the groups and sub-groups they represent.
Okay.
The Democrats are to the left. The Blue Dogs center left. Liberals are the far left.
In the shitty American left-right political spectrum that makes absolutely no sense to the rest of the planet, yes. In reality, the majority of the Democratic Party is center-right, as I mentioned before, it's largely a right-wing party. You do have your exceptions, mostly notably Dennis Kucinich, who would be a social democrat in most European countries, and Bernie Sanders, the senator from Vermont is also an actual leftist and there are probably a few members who are center at best.
Obama isn't anything other than an empty suit surrounded by a Chicago born political machine that is corrupt beyond human imagination. He's a political chameleon that will do whatever gets him the votes and power.
Sounds a lot like your typical right-wing politician.
I stopped caring when I realized he was Bush 2.0
Agreed. I'll probably end up voting third party come 2012 and the GOP isn't a fucking option by any stretch.

|Sounds a lot like your typical right-wing politician.

And they get flushed out every few years because of that. Democrats get rewarded for doing the same, but this is politics. The Republican party is pretty crappy right now. The Tea party is disorganized but slowly scaring the the fuck out of the old Republican guard. Democrats can't seem to fix anything without making everything even worse. Ron Paul is still a joke.

Also, Liberals = Left. Republicans = Right. Independents = Center. Europe has a completely different type of political spectrum.

Europe has a completely different type of political spectrum.
Which is what I go by since it's also a much more accurate one. When you think in terms that both the Democrats and GOP are right-wing, it's no wonder why that for the large part, they're both shit parties. Also, Independent is almost just as meaningless an affiliation as "Tea Party" is. So-called "Independents" are just Democrats who lean centrist to center-left (not many out there, of course).

>>100
The Republican party is pretty crappy right now.
When have they haven't been? It's been pretty evident since the "Southern Strategy" days and possibly a decade or two prior.

>>91
>>92
>>93
If there is a lot wrong with it the good ultimately outweighs the bad. Take one look at this Milton Friedman video, there is something complete and final about his response, as though he was allowing the presenter to lift up the nirvana fallacy only so he could get a clean shot.

youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A

This is what liberals fail to understand. The drive for profit, to quantify the real world so we can maximize the use of our intelligence in managing economic activity, without it we would not be able to lower costs, maximimize resource usage, intensify exploitation and optimize efficiency and not just to produce higher quality/quantity goods and services but also to reveal the value of things that we did not see and make things possible we could not have dreamed of before.
>>94
Ideally people should pay for what they use from the government, since the poorest in society don't owe the government anything I guess that makes sense.

>>98
Tax loopholes are only a problem if you insist on legislating in linear time.  UK master race doesn't worry about tax loopholes, because they can just erase the loophole from history.  "This amendment is treated as always having had effect."

nigger president = bad idea

>>105
I never thought much about it at first until well into his tenure, I found myself saying "he's nigger rigging the economy" and it was then I really started taking notice of his swarthy complexion. It seems self-evident to me.

>>103
Milton Friedman does a pretty good job of destroying logical fallacies of the Left. We need more people like that right now.

>>103

Damn this guys good

>>108
Did he right books? I'll have to research this guy.

>>98
God damn it how can you be so stupid.

Now >>73 is spot on!

>>45
EAT MY DICK FAG!

>>109
write*

You should read more books.

I think we call all agree that the Left has failed us on the economy. The "spend your way out of debt" theory isn't holding much water with the tax payers.

Milton Friedman had it right.

>>112

Uh no we can't all agree on that because it's not true.

“Excuse me, Mr. Nick!” It was Pearl Fey. She looked very small behind the tall oak defendant’s stand.Phoenix heard Franziska von Karma, the prosecutor, babbling something about her perfection, and decided that he could spare his attention. “What is it, Pearls?” He whispered out of the corner of his mouth. The girl stared up at him with her large brown eyes. Her silky brown hair was braided into two circles behind her head that bounced up and down when she was surprised or excited. And to top it off she wore the standard light purple channeler’s robe with a pink sash, only in miniature. “Mr. Nick, I have to go potty, bad!” “I’m sorry, Pearls, but you’ll have to hold it a little longer. The judge doesn’t look ready to call a recess yet.” “Oh…” “Don’t worry, we’ll get you to a bathroom. Just hang in there, okay?” “Okay!” said Pearl, breaking into a grin. Phoenix couldn’t help but smile back. He didn’t like kids, but Pearl never caused any trouble. “Mr. Wright! I would advise you to pay attention to your own client’s trial!” “Y-yes, your honor!” Phoenix stammered. The judge continued. “Ms. Von Karma was just about to call the next witness to the stand…” It was Lotta Hart, the nosy photographer who almost always managed to show up in time to witness the crime scene. They began the cross examination. Phoenix listened carefully to the entire testimony, and Pearl waited patiently. He kept reviewing all the evidence, looking frantically for contradictions, but the story seemed airtight. He could tell the judge was getting impatient, and his window of opportunity was closing. This looked like it could be the end… “Need some help?” A familiar voice came from right next to him, and Phoenix glanced over in astonishment. “Pearls? What…” His heart almost stopped. There stood Mia Fey, his dead mentor. He’d always had something of a crush on her, and now she looked more beautiful than ever before. Now, her hair was brown, and braided up in the back just like Pearl’s. He realized that the young spirit medium must be channeling Mia. “Hmmm…these clothes are a little small though.” Phoenix blushed as he realized just how short the eight-year-old’s skirt was on the fully grown Mia. It barely covered her crotch! And now Mia, who had always had a large bust, was quite literally almost popping out of the minuscule channeling robes. She must have noticed Phoenix staring. “Get it together, Phoenix! You’ve got a case to win!” He nodded and turned back to the witness stand. Mia continued. “Now, start trying to press the witness for-urk!” She suddenly felt an intense pressure in her abdomen. That little girl was working on quite a load! “Are you okay, Mia?” “Y-yeah…I’m fine…” she reassured him, although she was beginning to sweat. I’m not sure how much longer I can hold it. “Ms. Hart, isn’t it true you took more than one photo of the crime scene?” “Well, yeah! You reckon I’d let a story this big go by with just one pitcher to show for it?” “Would you mind presenting those additional pictures to the court?” “The prosecution has deemed the additional photograph to be irrelevant.” Phoenix pointed in his trademark gesture. “I think that’s for the people of this court to decide!” “I’m sorry, Ms. Von Karma, but I must agree with the defense on this – YOW!” Franziska cracked her whip viciously at the old man. “Very well! If you wish to waste this court’s time, I will present the other photo.” “Hmmm… what could this mean…?” Phoenix pored over the newly submitted picture for any discrepancies. “T-there, a contradiction! Think about the evidence you have and compare it to the picture you just got!” counseled Mia in a rather strained tone of voice. At that very moment she was forcing back an intense urge to use the bathroom by any means necessary. I’ve got to focus on the trial…she chided herself. But she could feel her concentration slipping. As her protégé raised an objection, she gripped the defendant’s stand with white knuckles. She shifted nervously in her uncomfortably tight clothing. She couldn’t really blame Phoenix for staring, after all, she was sporting some truly eye popping cleavage. “Are you really alright, chief? You don’t look so good.” Phoenix asked. He seemed genuinely concerned, as Mia’s face had blanched and she was now sweating noticeably. The air around her was beginning to waver and bend almost imperceptibly. “Don’t worry about me, you need to think of the client!” Ugh...this is the worst I’ve ever had to go in my whole life. I can feel my connection to Pearl waning… Mia quickly began to understand the bottom line: if she didn’t find relief soon, she would go back to the spirit world and leave Phoenix on his own. As the fight between Phoenix and Franziska dragged on, Mia’s eyes widened in desperation. An airy fart squeezed itself out of her, and the very tip of a hard turd emerged from between her cheeks. She needed a toilet, now. Her lips parted as an almost inaudible moan escaped them. She clutched her backside tightly and hopped up and down to distract herself. She stopped and doubled over as she farted again, louder. The sheer volume of feces inside her astounded Mia. She fought hard to hold it in, but it was a losing battle. The whole room started to narrow to tunnel vision, and the sound of Phoenix and Franziska arguing at the top of their lungs faded to a dull roar. This is it…she thought. It’s now or never. She relaxed her sphincter, and a large volume of gas escaped her. “Ohhh…” She ceased to perceive anything else in the room, except the blissful release she was feeling. She gave her body a push to help things along, and just like that she was defecating. Her eyes were closed, and beneath her slightly upturned nose her mouth was formed into an ‘O’ of pure bliss. The enormous turd that had been bothering her slid smoothly out of her rectum and rested against her panties for a moment, before another push from Mia caused them to bulge out easily with a soft crackle. The poop kept coming and began to pile into a mound. Even though everyone in the courtroom was watching Mia awkwardly, all she could feel was the warm, gooey sensation on her behind. If I had known how much pleasure you get from soiling yourself, I would have done this while I was alive! When that piece was finished, she could feel more lining up for exit. This one was wider, so she spread her legs and bent over the stand, revealing more cleavage. Her brow furrowed and she bit her lower lip out of exertion. Oh, my, this one is huge! What on earth did that little girl eat? She was so lost in concentration that Mia’s bladder released, causing a fountain of urine to cascade from between her legs. A puddle formed underneath her, splashing onto the floor. As she strained, Mia released a big fart into Pearl’s loaded panties. “Nnnnngh!” With the noise she was making, everyone in the courtroom was looking at her. “What’s going on?” “Mommy, is the lady going poo-poo?” If there was any doubt before, it was now clear that Mia was going poo-poo, as she began to push in earnest on the big lump of excrement inside her. Mia’s anus began to widen further and further, and gradually, her bowel movement began to slide out with a soft, crackling. “Nnnh…nnh…oh!” Her sphincter was stretched to its limit.Finally, the widest part passed through and began to slide easily into her heavy panties. “Ahhhhhhh…” Mia as the football shaped BM smushed at last into Pearl’s undies, which were adorned with bumblebees and flowers. The panties sagged considerably beneath her short skirt, revealing the crack of her bum, which was smeared brown. Mia stood up. Every man, woman and child in the court room was staring at her open mouthed after witnessing her display. Mia barely noticed. That was the thing about being a spirit, she thought. You don’t have to worry about the opinions of others. After a moment of silence, Mia cleared her throat. “If the court is ready, may we continue with the…oh! Ungh…mmmph…” She closed one of her eyes and grimaced. She pushed on her tummy with a slender hand and finally voided the last of her bowels. A thin log slithered out of her  and rested on top of the enormous pile in her panties. “Hang on…there’s more…” After an audible fart she grunted again, releasing a mushy mass of hot slop that coated her production. She nodded. “Your honor…?” “Well, I must say that in all my years I have never seen someone take a case so seriously."