Astounding Govt Debts!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-24-retiree-taxpayers_x.htm

I need a good country to move to.

Don't move, fix this one. 

http://www.lp.org/

And that bill was just going through the congress to step up foreign aid by another 20 BILLION DOLLARS! 

It would seem to be a good question... why are we giving away so much money? We clearly can't afford it. 

>>4

Foreign aid is probly one of the more useless of them, but there are a lot of other programs that should be slashed.  Corporate subsidies and welfare of all forms (including corporate) should be next.

australia has no govt debts

welfare of all forms

A better idea is to reform the system so that it pushes people back into the workforce. Completely removing welfare is a disaster waiting to happen.

welfare=stealing

>>7

When I said welfare of all forms, the way I worded it, I meant for it to include corporate welfare as well.  Removing all welfare wouldn't be a disaster waiting to happen.  If people want money, they'll work for it.  If not, just because they are poor is no justification to take from those who aren't, and do work. 

>>1

Socialism collapsing. 

I'd like to believe that the majority of able-bodied people would be ashamed to be on welfare, having to pay for their food using stamps and such. Being on welfare is not something that most people are proud of. I live in a relatively rich neighborhood, but having been in markets in poorer areas (sometimes they carry things that you can't seem to find in regular stores) I see people all the time paying in food stamps, and they truly look ashamed to be doing it.

Having said that, there are a lot of people on welfare that truly need it. Most of its detractors (especially on this board) are the kind of people that haven't had to work for a thing in their lives and haven't even experienced having to pay the very taxes that they say are being wasted on programs like these.

It must be nice when your parent's buy you everything, right? Welfare sure is a bitch, right?

>>11
That's why I hate welfare and all this time I thought I was a chemical and process engineer and that I worked a 45 hour week only to pay extra tax to unneccesarily fund a horrifically innefficient socialist bureacratic morass, when in fact I was a lazy bum and all that money came from my parents. Thanks for setting me straight, I'm going to quit work (since it's all an illusion) and become a noble welfare recipient immediately!

You can be anything you want to be, Anonymous.  Did you work for Vandelay Industries?

I can't believe that there are actually people out there that think that the United States is a socialist government. Wasn't one of the first things you learned in basic econ. class the fact that the U.S. economy runs on capitalism?

>>14
That might be what drives the economy, but look at all the bloated and inefficient government programs? We are certainly not 'capitalist.'  I'd say we are more of a mixed-economy than 'socialist.'

Though economically we might be more free than other nations, we are certainly not a "Capitalist" nation anymore. 

Welfare is a socialist based idea. And there is no such thing as true capitalism.

>>16
There isn't.  That doesn't mean there couldn't be.

>>14
although it's true that the usa is perhaps the most capitalist economy, it still remains a modified one as it has obligations to look after the needy and public enterprises.

>>17
aslong as people have morals and there are old people there won't be.

>>18

"aslong as people have morals and there are old people there won't be."

There is nothing immoral about Capitalism.  People should have the right to live for their own sake, without supporting others, or taking responsibility for the stupid, irresponsible choices other people decide to make. 

I don't want to have to pay into bullshit govt programs that will take care of a paralyzed citizen if he was paralyzed because of his own negligence/irresponsibility. 

I don't want to have to pay into any kind of nationalized health care programs so that dumbasses can have a breakfast consisting of cigarettes, beer, and bacon, without having to worry about their health bills, since they'll be forcing it on me, and the rest of the community.

>>11
So the fuck what? Welfare is stealing.  Stealing is wrong, period.  It doesn't take a genius to figure this out.  It doesn't matter whether you have worked a single day, or 10 years.  It doesn't change the fact that stealing is stealing.  The only difference in the case of welfare and food stamps is that it is done by the government, giving it an illusory shroud of legitimacy.

>>19
You are just saying that because it is other people's money you want to spend, not just your own.  In capitalism, if you want to support those kinds of things through voluntary charity, you can do that--with YOUR money.  If other people want to, they can... with THEIR money.  Why should this issue be brought to the government? Since when was capitalism and property rights an issue in the United States? What about rights to life, liberty, and property?

>>21
(I am poster 21)... I directed that post at poster #19 wrongly, I meant to direct it at >>18.

>>19 While I am a Swede, and thus a first-hand experiencee of extreme taxation, that stance ignores environmental determinism. I first thought libertarianism was the best of two worlds, but like most political ideologies, it feels at its coziest in a black n' white world. I'm not implying that you are completely wrong, far from it, but I'm saying that your stance is philosophically and logically flawed.

>>23

Not saying this in a condescending tone or anything, but how is the principle that each individual should have the rights to the product of his effort "philosophically and logically flawed"?

Since the living environment, origin, parentage and phenotype of a citizen has an obvious effect on it's future life, those automatically disadvantaged deserve a degree of indirect gratitude from those with an automatic advantage. The probleem is, of course, that the situation persists due to the mollyfying effect of free money, the poor educational facilities and the self-victimization that persist for various reasons. "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime." - Lao Tse. 

>>25
Sorry, I have to say it.  "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day.  Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

>>25
Those disadvantage do not deserve a degree of gratitude from those with automatic advantage...

Just whom are you implying has "automatic advantage," in a capitalist society? The inheritors of a rich man's personal fortune?

So what do you advocate? Making it so that the rich man can not do with the products of his own individual effort as he pleases?  If he can't use or dispose of the products of his effort as he pleases, but they are to be disposed of by others, against his will, this is blatant slavery, to the degree to which his property is confiscated from him.

If 10% of his property is to be confiscated when he passes his property to an inheritor upon his death, that means that 10% of that work which he did, was not done for himself, but for others, and against his will.  It is stealing, or slavery, whichever you prefer.

In the instance that a rich man decides to leave his fortune somewhere after dieing, or to just give someone some money, it is his rights which are in question, not the rights of the recipient.  Who's property is it? Who is currently in posession of the said property?

Until it is willed to it's recipient, it is still the rich man's property, and because of this simple fact, it is HIS right to give it to the person, not the person's right to recieve it. 

Thus, it is not up to question whether or not it is fair for the person to RECIEVE the products of the rich man's labor, but rather whether or not the rich man has the rights to GIVE him the products of his labor.

In any society with a respect for justice, as much so as is possible within the framework of what is necessary for the preservation of society, the men in question will be able to do with the products of their effort and labor as they please.

It is just that the produce of a man's effort be his.

It's 10% of slavery, or as much percentage of it that is necessary to slightly balance things out. The US can't remove welfare before it is more of a meritocracy, and there are less automatical limitations acting on those born with a certain appearance. If person 'A' (lower middle class) has a tougher time growing up then 'B' (upper middle), and makes less money despite them having the same potential, without welfare 'A's child 'a' would have more of a tough time (lower class) and 'B's child 'b' (upper class would have it slightly easier than the parent. Shit accumulates.

>>12
You'd be a lot more convincing if you could spell, mister "chemical engineer".

>>28

The wealth producing power of Capitalism makes more possible for greater numbers of people.  The lower prices delivered by large corporations benefit the poor, raising their standard of living, and contributing to ending the vicious cycle of poverty.

>>29
LOL SOMEONE MADE A TYOP IS MEAN I WIN ARGUMENT ROFL

>>31
That's more that one "typo", and from a supposed well-educated individual.

I'm God! It's true because I said so!

>>32
omfg

._.'

>>30 And some of those profits are a result of the corporations taking moral, environmental and judicial shortcuts. By taking capitalism as a cornucopian force, we forget its shortcomings, and sometimes even say to those pointing them out that they don't like civilisation or something. We shouldn't have to accept everything.

>>34
That's another reason Capitalism is so great.  You don't have to accept it.  Quit your job, move out into the woods, and hunt for food if you want.  Or, keep living among the civilized world. 

All Capitalism means, is property is privately owned, and nobody is forced to do anything they don't want to do with themselves, or their property, outside of the MOST MINIMUM amount of taxes necessary... i.e. military, police, courts, roads, etc.

>>35 Great idea. I'll let all the negative side-effects of capitalism accumulate. I'm still not completely made up on the issue of capitalism, but I can assure you that it is not failsafe. I'd rather take responsibility for my planet and my future children, and actively trim the market to perfection.

>>36
The point is that violence to reach these goals is wrong.  Capitalism is good because it gives you an alternative to violence to get what you want--voluntary trade. 

>>37 Sure, while I get wet thinking about blowing the brains out of the board of chairmen at Nike Co., I realize it would only add to the enthropy of the world. But when consumers are as oblivious as they are, I do think a degree of anti-capitalism is still important.

>>38
You are being inconsistant.  I think violence should be barred from all human relationships except in those necessary to the preservation of a free state.

>>39 which is why I said it would be an unnecessary action. Then again, considering what is being done to the constitution I think it may be time for some car bombs at the very least.

>>40
Don't forget all the unconstitutional gun-control Clinton enacted. There's a mountain of it, and it's very likely it will never get entirely repealed again.  Clinton's harm to the constitution will very likely be permanent.

Of course, Clinton didn't ONLY harm the 2nd Amendment, he did a lot more, but that is probly the largest of the evils. 

>>41 I dunno. I look to the stats, or at least the actual effects. The effects of the Clinton presidency are horrible. I feel now that Clinton sucked, and I also understand he was only marginally better than Bush. I wonder if gun-related crime went on the rise due to his gun policies though. 

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>>42
It did.  And, actually, with the expiration of his "Assault Weapons Ban," the crime rate dropped 3.6 percent.

>>44
And people said there'd be "blood in the streets" if the politicians let that one expire...

>>44>>45 That's exactly what I like to know. Thanks muchly. But isn't there a state where you now can shoot people just for being "threatening" or something? Considering it's a decree on the other side of the spectrum, how's that working out? I now it's bad to be so vague but all the news we get in Sweden is about Gaza, swedish politicians, media uproars and Europe.

>>44
      That statistic is unaccurate as you can only really base it's effect on crime as in the rate of crime using assault weapons, and the rate of crime using weapons that the criminals got when assault weapons were unobtainable to them.  You can't judge the sucess of the law by overall crime rate.  And most of the weapons banned by the assault weapons ban were illegal anyways.

>>46
Yeah, there are plenty of states with laws like that.  Those are generally referred to as self-defence rights laws.  I have not heard anything BAD about those laws, and most large organizations support them as an effective method of controlling crime. 

Anyways, private citizens have shown to be five times more accurate in who they are shooting than the actual police themselves.  (I have the source if you don't believe me on this.)

So those laws are probably a good thing. 

There are also some similar laws pertaining to self-defence known as "castle doctrine" laws.  These laws basically state that if you are assaulted, or you think you will be, and you are in a place where you have a legal right to be (such as your home), you don't have the 'duty to retreat.'  You can stay there, hold your ground and your home, and defend it, without fear of prosecution. 

Of course, you won't see the liberals often support measures like this....

>>46  The only news we get in the United States seems to be school shootings and domestic violence.  Yay for corporate anti-gun media!

Okay, I'll give my props to the libertarians, and I hope Bloomberg manages to shake thing up and that he isn't anything like Clinton. In the meantime, the libertarians seem to be a better lot than most; as long as they keep the christians away from my gay fellow humans I'm game. Go Purple!

>>50
Glad to hear it.  Another on the freedom bandwagon.  Here's some great websites for more libertarian/freedom oriented reading(though not necessarilly indicative of the thoughts or beliefs of ALL libertarians): 

http://www.lp.org/

http://www.self-gov.org/

http://www.lewrockwell.com/

And another link to a site with more links for you: 

http://www.theadvocates.org/links.html

Enjoy!

>>50
Oh, and I forgot this one: 

http://www.cato.org/