I'm sure you've got this question many times before, but afaik there's no way to search the threads, so here we go again.
I'm about to be done with Genki II, now what? People seem to be less than loving of "an integrated course to intermediate japanese". It's also my understanding that there's no answer key to the workbook, which is a big no-no since I'm teaching myself here.
Oh and, The Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary for kanji? I'll be done with "kanji look and learn" which teaches 512 kanji when I'm done with Genki II. I've also heard good things about "A Dictionary of Japanese Particles", would it be premature to get that one now?
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Anonymous2012-02-24 5:14
Hey, I'm going to jump right to the point.
I've been studying Japanese on-and-off, from about 2003.
During the 0-10 school year I took actual Japanese courses at my college (Japan 1-summer 9 Japan 2-fall 09 Japan 3 spring 2012). Since then I haven't really practiced much.
I did import and play Pokemon Black in the fall of 2010, but after a while of carefully translating and looking up every sentence and making sure I understood everything half-way through the game it got tiresome. I started skimming , then button mashing, then not paying attention at all.
Now, I've met a couple of legit Japanese people in some of my current courses, and I'd like to converse with them fluently, but I can barely remember shit.
I want to not only regain what I lost, but continue to improve.
What do?
For Japanese 1-2 I used "Nakama 1", and for Japanese 3 I used the first half of "Genki 2"
I also have "Yookoso!"
>>2 the particle book is quite helpful for looking things up.
Memorizing everything doesn't work very well.
Wikipedia has a pretty decent particle list as well.
>>2
IJ isn't exactly a good book, and half of it is basically repetition of what you've already learned in Genki 2. There really aren't a lot of good choices on the intermediate level, so you need to find a new focus for your study after getting through Genki.
You could, for instance, use the A Dictionary of Japanese Grammar books as a reference for new grammar points, and work on vocabulary using Anki and the core 2k deck, while doing RTK or <your_favorite_kanji_study_method> and hopefully using Anki for that as well (does your "kanji look and learn" course overlap Genki's own set of kanji?).
In addition to the above it's pretty smart to start consuming a variety of native media to speed up things. Right after finishing Genki, books are too much of a hassle to be any fun, but manga are great because you get visual clues along with the sentences. Watch TV dramas, variety shows and news for listening practice. The latter two will also expose you to a lot of kanji, so they might be helpful for reading as well.
The easy way out is to just set focus toward JLPT N3 and go through study material made for that, but it's a lot less fun.
Also, you can search by opening the full old threads and using Ctrl+F.
>>3
Don't expect to be able to converse fluently without even having finished Genki 2. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to converse with people, though. Read through the grammar points and dialogue texts again, then make sure to get some more input like dramas/talk shows. To improve, see >>4 after finishing Genki 2.
You might also want to do some writing practice to make sure you can express your ideas in a somewhat consistent way. If you make an account on lang-8, there are many Japanese people who'll be willing to correct your writings if you do the same for them.
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Anonymous2012-02-24 7:59
>>4
Thanks for the advice! Yeah I kinda came to the conclution that I will need to disover a new method of studying. I might pick up manga even though it doesn't interest me very much, I've heard people say good things about it for this purpose. I would love to watch movies as well, but they're difficult for me to find and I won't tread on anime teritory.
I might go for that JLPT N3 thing you mention, since I don't care much for "fun" when learning. I just want progress, and I'm afraid I won't feel the progress if I read manga etc and thereby lose motivation.
All in all though, you would not reocmmend me getting the IJ book? Better go with A Dictionary of Japanese Grammar or some such?
I tried core 2k for anki, but the cards were just painfully bad. Core 6k may be more up my speed now, but I'm not sure if that's how I'd like to learn kanji (which in turn gives me vocabulary). I've been looking into RTK as you mention instead. And yes, kanji look and learn overlaps completely with the 300 or so from genki. It covers all kanji "up to JLPT2" (I think they mean all for JLPT3, then starting on those required for JLPT2)
Lengthy reply got lengthy. Thanks again for the advice!
>>6
>I don't care much for "fun" when learning
You know, you could just pick up any thick book on a subject that interests you then and dig in. Now, if you're completely uninterested in neither books, nor manga, nor anime, nor their normal TV, well, you got a problem.
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Anonymous2012-02-24 14:54
>>10
Well yes, but that wouldn't be particularly pedagogic. But I guess I'll have to do something like that. I guess I'll try to find some reasonable manga and movies, then use something like that grammar dictionary book that was mentioned.
>>6
As >>10 wrote, it would become a problem if you don't have interests in any media, because avoiding those would be a barrier to reinforcing what you've learned. I didn't mean to make it sound like you should just read comics and leave at that, but rather to complement your studies with native input. If you find something you enjoy reading, watching or listening to, all the better! Then you'll be able to reinforce your learning outside of the actual "study time".
The JLPT is a rather useless certification, but as a goal to work towards it comes in handy. Probably a lot better than working with the core decks, I probably shouldn't have mentioned those as I never used them myself... Anyway, if you have the patience and motivation required, I think it'd be wise to get going with daily Anki sessions as soon as possible. I never did use it long-term, and as a result there's a mental barrier growing thicker and thicker, preventing me from making the commitment.
It's been years since I used IJ, and I don't have my copy around or I would've checked it again, but from what I can remember it was pretty shitty. If you don't want to make the jump away from Genki-style text book studying just yet, or are able to find a copy for cheap, it might be worth getting. If not, there are lots of better study aids to spend money on. The Dictionary of Japanese Grammar books have amazingly detailed grammar explanations with examples, and English translations that actually express the meaning of the original sentence instead of just trying to sound "hip". I've been through a lot of grammar material, both English and Japanese-only, but nothing else comes close. I'm bummed I didn't learn about these earlier, because they would've made things a lot easier earlier on.
>>9
Interesting site, thanks for the link. It seems like there are some people on there who actually know their shit.
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Anonymous2012-02-25 0:37
>>11
>that wouldn't be particularly pedagogic
Keep in mind that most (if not all) of pedagogic is about instilling competence in people who lack motivation, discipline and perseverance. Usually the people in question are very young children, teenagers whose parents dropped them in a language course they don't really care about or overworked adults who think it'll be cool to... but don't really have the energy to put in the grunt work.
Assuming you're neither of the above, the relevant questions are: 1) Can you pull it off? 2) Does it help? Obviously reading/listening to real world media helps so that leaves 1).
I'm not saying you should intentionally steer away from good textbooks but there's only so few of those.
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Anonymous2012-02-25 2:11
>>15
I'm not sure if I agree entirely with your view of what pedagogics is good for. Of course one can pull it off without good material if one has the motivation, but still I think a good book would help even those who have motivation.
Anyhow, taking what you all have said into consideration, I'm considering the following:
* Try to pick up some manga, and try to find some decent movies (heard good things about some Satoshi Kon guy, though I'm generally not into anime), though not really basing my learning on any of these.
* The Dictionary of Japanese Grammar for grammar (might be dry since it calls itself a "dictionary", but people say good things about it even for initial learning and I guess this is where that motivation comes in)
* Remembering the Kanji for well, kanji. Possibly The Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary as well.
* A Dictionary of Japanese Particles for the lulz
* Maybe add that anki core 6000 thing after all if the vocab from the kanji's are not enough.
Sounds good? Thanks ya'll
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Anonymous2012-02-26 4:44
Is it bothering anyone else that the line between verbs and adjectives (and even nouns to a certain extent) is an incredibly fuzzy one?
汚れている implies that the book was once clean (i.e. pristine, or unsullied), but is now unclean because of dirt, poop, etc.
汚い simply means it is not only unclean at that particular moment or perpetually (in the physical sense), but can also mean unwholesome, vulgar, or poorly organized.
The resolution is too low for me to make out the last character. What's the source?
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Anonymous2012-02-27 2:39
>>5
Ok, I can do that. Do you know of any good resources for workbook type exercises? Writing & listen stuff that has an answer key.
Also, do you know if the Genki I & II workbooks are available online? I'd like to know before I go searching.
Also, Kanji.
How should I go about (re)memorizing them and which ones/how to move forward?
I see you guys discussing "anki" what is that?
>>24
They are. There's a huge torrent on TBP with a bunch of textbooks and workbooks.
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Anonymous2012-02-27 6:06
>>24
There's no one correct way to learn kanji, you have to find your own way.
For me, picking off a few each day works fine. I spend some 10-15min on each in total. Say I take 10 of them one day, I may through-out the day just go through them a couple of times with a specific purpose each time. (remembering their meaning, studying stroke order, their uses, writing them from memory, etc) Then of course it's a good idea to return to these some other day to keep them fresh in memory.
Like I said, there's many ways to learn. Perhaps the most successful one is to find something to relate the new knowledge to. Thus it's good to recognize parts of kanji's you've seen before (books such as remembering the kanji may help with this). Another important aspect is repetition. You don't need to write each kanji 500+ times like the nips do in school, but you DO need to write them a couple of times and more importantly, return to the kanji the next day! The next week! Maybe even the next month to make sure that they stick. Just a quick round-up of what you know is good.
Although I haven't tried it myself, I'd bet a successful method might be to try an insane amount at once, and do it ambitiously! Say you take 100 each day. I'd guess the bulk of it would stick after all. With this method it would become extra important to return to the kanji's you've learned a week or two afterwards etc.
Well, didn't this just turn into a wall of text..
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Anonymous2012-02-27 8:49
If I wanted to buy something from a vendor at the comic market, would it be ridiculous to say, "すみません, これが買いたいです" while pointing? Is there a better way of doing it?
Also, is there any way to convey the message "While I appreciate your conspicuous honesty, your money has Arabic numerals on it, and I already verified that the change was correct when you counted it into your hand the first time. There is no need to hold it up and slowly count it out again while speaking the numbers aloud in Japanese"? I tried "いいです", but that didn't seem to get the idea across.
If you're pointing, however, that likely means the object (or futanari doujinshi, in your case) is closer to the listener, in which case you'll want to switch to それ. In any case, being as descriptive as possible is always the best option but if you can't handle anything outside of demonstratives, that'll do. If you'd like to be more a little polite: これを買いたいんですが・・・
失礼ですが、（おつり）を二度と確かめなくてもいいです。
Sorry, but you don't need to confirm the change a second time
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Anonymous2012-02-27 9:44
>>28
が is fine in place of を when the verb is conjugated as たい.
I'd just say これ/それをください. It just sounds silly to me when you explicitly express your wish to buy it.
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Anonymous2012-02-27 9:57
>>29
が is more often used with たいform to express the want of a second party を is more direct and the most appropriate when used with demonstratives.
それを買いたいんですが is common, polite, and essentially the same as saying "I'd like that/this one please", which any English speaker would hardly call silly. これ/それをください is as dry as "That one please". Either of them get the job done though.
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Anonymous2012-02-27 10:07
>>30
No, you must have gotten that one backwards. を exclusively is used when talking about what others want. (たがっている)
Yes well, I'd rather say "this one please" than "I'd like to buy this one", but maybe that's just me. Seems redundant to say the latter.
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Anonymous2012-02-27 10:12
>>31
Maybe I wasn't really clear. を or が can be used with たい form but when the speaker is the first person, を is most commonly used. This isn't a hard rule, just more natural.
たがる, which isn't really たい form, only takes を and is specific to the third person.
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Anonymous2012-02-27 10:27
>>32
Alright, any more insight on why を is more common for first person? I learned this part through Genki, and they kinda suck at telling the underlying reasoning behind things, with their lacking of literal translations etc. I got a feeling I'll have to read through all that old grammar again when I purchase "a dictionary of ___ japanese grammar"..
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Anonymous2012-02-27 10:41
For the above sentence, there's one real reason why wo is slightly more preferential. In reality, either will do, but wo asserts directness of action where ga asserts the object. Which, when using demonstratives (i.e. not wholly identifying what it is you want), wo is a bit stronger. You more normally see ga and tai form together in subordinate clauses, and wo in main clauses, which is pretty important when more complex sentences come up. It's basically splitting hairs though.
>(or futanari doujinshi, in your case)
U.S. Customs and Border Protection being what it is, I'm not about to test my luck carrying anything even slightly risqué across international borders.
Quick question that has been bothering me while doing my exercises just now, how do you say "earlier", "prettier" etc? "more early"? (もっと早い)
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Anonymous2012-02-27 12:11
japs = scum
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Anonymous2012-02-27 13:17
japs = scum
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Anonymous2012-02-27 17:24
>>37
It depends.
When making comparisons, you don't use that type of construct.
Instead, it would be something like ～よりも早い (earlier than~) or ～ほうが早い (~ is earlier).
However, there are some instances where もっと is used, such as もっと強くなる (will become stronger).
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Anonymous2012-02-28 1:38
>>40
Right, that first one I knew of and it kinda tripped me up when trying to say "wake up earlier", but I suppose 「もっと早く起きる」 then. Thanks!
UN FORO LLENO DE FRIKIS SUDAKAS
GAYERS LANZAFLECHAS SUDAKAS DE MIERDA
HIJOS DE PUTA ANTI-RIPPERS
GAYERS LANZAFLECHAS SUDAKAS DE MIERDA
GAYERS LANZAFLECHAS SUDAKAS DE MIERDA
HIJOS DE PUTA ANTI-RIPPERS
GAYERS LANZAFLECHAS SUDAKAS DE MIERDA
HIJOS DE PUTA ANTI-RIPPERS
GAYERS LANZAFLECHAS SUDAKAS DE MIERDA
HIJOS DE PUTA ANTI-RIPPERS
GAYERS LANZAFLECHAS SUDAKAS DE MIERDA
BIMBA BIMBA BIMBA EL SONIDO DE MIS WEBOS CONTRA EL CULO DE TU MADRE
BIMBA BIMBA BIMBA EL SONIDO DE MIS WEBOS CONTRA EL CULO DE TU MADRE
BIMBA BIMBA BIMBA EL SONIDO DE MIS WEBOS CONTRA EL CULO DE TU MADRE
HIJOS DE PUTA ANTI-RIPPERS
BIMBA BIMBA BIMBA EL SONIDO DE MIS WEBOS CONTRA EL CULO DE TU MADRE
BIMBA BIMBA BIMBA EL SONIDO DE MIS WEBOS CONTRA EL CULO DE TU MADRE
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Anonymous2012-03-03 8:07
>>42
Barron's grammar book is better in my opinion. 7 bucks too.
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johnson2012-03-03 18:44
hey guys. i messaged a manga author on twitter the other day, using google translate. and then i started wondering if my message made any sense.
here's what i said:
"それは別の偉大な章でした！面白かった智子と母の戦い、。このようなものはアニメ/マンガに頻繁には発生しません、私は思う。"
what i was trying to say:
"the latest chapter was great! it was interesting to see tomoko having an argument with her mother. i don't think you see stuff like that [i was referring to parent/child arguments in general] in anime/manga very often"
did my message make any sense at all? i tried to write it so google would translate it properly. but there's not much i can do about it now that i've sent it. i guess i'm just looking for peace of mind, heh
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Anonymous2012-03-03 19:54
>>46
noooot really. Don't ever use google translate. You can probably find people, even in these threads to translate sentences.
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Anonymous2012-03-03 22:41
>>46
I guarantee that author was thoroughly confused.
>>52
"Now that you mention it, arguments between parents and children aren't very common. Or perhaps, in recent anime, parents don't appear often. They're either dead, or gone overseas, etc..."
I've only been learning Japanese for 2 months so this might not be fully accurate, but I think I got the general meaning right. Hopefully someone with more skills can translate it better.
watashi wa oatmeal desu. watashi no penis wo sexy touch shite kudasai.
what that mean
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Anonymous2012-06-06 6:59
>>58
It means "I snart ett år har de svenska journalisterna
Martin Schibbye och Johan Persson
suttit i fängelse i Etiopien.
De greps när de var i Etiopien för att berätta om hur det svenska företaget Lundin Oil gör när de letar efter olja. Många säger att Lundin Oil behandlar människor i Etiopien och Sudan mycket dåligt. De säger att folk tvingas bort från sina hem för att Lundin ska få tag på olja."
I really want to teach myself Japanese; I've successfully learned both hiragana and katakana. The next step is to obviously learn grammar, vocab, etc. Along with vocab comes kanji. Kanji absolutely terrify me. What are your methods on tackling kanji? Is it as hard as it seems?
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Anonymous2012-08-10 8:55
>>64
No. Just takes time and diligence. Go read Kanjidamage.com
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Anonymous2012-08-10 12:46
>>61
なり after nouns can mean like "etc", similar to など.
I'd recommend getting some sort of text that integrates kanji within each lesson to guide you in the beginning so you can get both a foundation of general characters and understanding of how they work. Once you get to the intermediate level, learning kanji all by yourself isn't nearly as intimidating or challenging.