The topic titles gets asked more then it should in /v/, and people miss previous threads as to why mmorpgs in their current state are garbage.
I know this thread won't be able to cover everything, but it should shed some reality on the situation.
(Incomming copy pasta)
World of Warcraft Is not the best mmo.
If you think people bash WoW because they can't afford it or the whole "mainstream" or "overrated" or "social" you're an idiot.
Supporting WoW supports the stagnation of the MMORPG genre. Supporting FFXI, L2, and any other Everquest-clone supports the stagnation of the MMORPG genre.
WoW introduced a whole new populace into the virtual world community. But Blizzard did it with what can be considered a 10+ year old game.
So entire new generations of mmorpg players have to "Burn out" from the same old game we've had for years and years prior to WoWs release. Since WoW is just another carbon copy of Everquest with Quest-grinding.
Every mmorpg which isn't UO or EVE has just been lost potential. Because all these other mmorpgs are just "Space Invaders" clones with "lewt".
Because the entire point of these Everquest failure mmorpgs is to be a character simulator, while you watch as the game plays itself for you in autocombat by grinding exp off random mobs.
And the people making these MMOs know that alot of people who would play such a game don't know any better. Because the devs for these Everquest-type mmos (like WoW, FFXI, L2, etc) can take potentially "fun" content which was available in previous mmos. And instead of developing some fun way to access them, or instead of providing them or creating some interesting way to access them. They make you grind for such things. And they use grinding exp as a lazy substitute for lack of content. Because grinding equals guaranteed playtime.
Enjoy your stagnation.
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Pretty much every mmo currently available could be replicated and provide the same "gameplay" experience (if you think it deserves being called a gameplay experience lol) in a game designed like guildwars.
MMOs contain "massive" worlds, and that's what makes them supposedly different from guildwars.
But do they ever do anything that can only be done in a massive world?
Not really. I have yet to see an MMORPG do something that can only be done in a massive world.
Games like FFXI or WoW are stagnant, never changing. Three years from now, some level 4 newb will be doing the same quest you did on your level 6 newb in WoW. Because you can't physically alter the world or change things.
Such games could be replicated with instanced worlds like guildwars.
So basically if you play an mmo you're paying monthly for guildwars with a feature that goes to waste. That feature being the first "M" in MMORPGs. Since they haven't really changed for 10 years. lol Everquest.
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Anonymous2006-11-18 20:48
Dunno.
I like WoW 'cause I play it with a lot of cool people.
If I didn't have bunch of friend who were also into it, I'd probably think it sucked hard.
I think that's really the main draw for ANY MMO game.
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Anonymous2006-11-19 0:27
Why do people on /v/ hate WoW?
Well, people on /v/ aren't smart enough to bash WoW because it's formulaic, and too mob-minded to realize that that's precisely WoW's appeal.
Blizzard has never done anything original. They've taken formulas that've proven successful (the RTS, the dungeon-crawler, the MMORPG), and boiled them down to what most basically appeals about them. Thus the success of every title they've published.
The problem with WoW is the fact that it's accessibility doesn't save it from the usual MMORPG problems. Namely, you need a steady group of friends on to make it worthwhile, and it's still largely a treadmill of levels with sparse story content throughout with an endgame that is largely repetitive.
WoW's success is something that's probably assured for at least another three or four years. Imitators (such as Vanguard) are bound to fall by the wayside. Sooner or later some big-name will put out something that does it differently, and success will be had.
Until then, WoW will remain fun for those who maintain steady ties with other players, and can be safely ignored by people who don't care for MMORPGs.
this post further reasoned my cause to quit the game
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Anonymous2006-11-19 13:24
These changes are miniscule, however, compared to what has happened in quite a few other people's lives. Some background... Blizzard created a game that you simply can not win. Not only that, the only way to "get better" is to play more and more. In order to progress, you have to farm your little heart out in one way or another: either weeks at a time PvPing to make your rank or weeks at a time getting materials for and "conquering" raid instances, or dungeons where you get "epic loot" (pixilated things that increase your abilities, therefore making you "better"). And what do you do after these mighty dungeons fall before you and your friend's wrath? Go back the next week (not sooner, Blizzard made sure you can only raid the best instances once a week) and do it again (imagine if Alexander the Great had to push across the Middle East every damn week).
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Anonymous2006-11-19 13:25
What does this mean? Well, to our average "serious" player this equates to anywhere between 12 hours (for the casual and usually "useless" player) to honestly 10 hours a day, seven days a week for those "hardcore" gamers. During my stint, I was playing about 30 hours a week (and still finding it hard to keep up with my farming) and logging on during my work day in order to keep up with all the guild happenings and to do my scheduling and tracking for the raids. A lot of time went into the development of new policies which took our friendly and family-oriented guild further and further away from its roots but closer to the end goal. Honestly, what that end goal is I'm not totally sure - there is truly no end to the game and every time you feel like you're satisfied with your progress, another aspect of the game is revealed and, well, you just aren't as cool as you can be again.
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Anonymous2006-11-19 13:26
There are three problems that arise from WoW: the time it requires to do anything "important" is astounding, it gives people a false sense of accomplishment, and when you're a leader, and get wrapped up in it, no matter how much you care or want people to care, you're doing the wrong thing.
First off, let's go back to the time it takes to accomplish anything in the game. To really be successful, you need to at least invest 12 hours a week, and that is bare minimum. From a leadership perspective, that 12 hours would be laughed at. That's the guy who comes unprepared to raid and has to leave half way through because he has work in the morning or is going out or some other thing that shows "lack of commitment". To the extreme there is the guildie who is always on and ready to help. The "good guildie" who plays about 10 hours a day and seven days a week. Yes, that's almost two full-time jobs. Funny, no one ever asks any questions, though.
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Anonymous2006-11-19 16:22
I'm selling my World of Warcraft: Collector's Edition for 100$ a piece, anyone intrested?
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Anonymous2006-11-19 17:14
OP here, I totally agree WoW takes too much time.
I'm in a NAX guild myself, but I find myself only doing BWL and NAX on sundays/mondays and wednesdays. We've gotten 8 bosses down so far. Luckily my guild puts more weight on player skill and not how much time you spend (or ebay) farming for pots and consumeables. We'll never be the absolute best this way, but we're still having fun :)
Luckily, in the expansion, there won't be any more 40man raids, or extreme grinding because of the ranking system.
Which, at that point I will leave my guild and create a small guild with all my friends so we can level and explore to level 70 :)
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Anonymous2006-11-19 17:28
If WoW isn't the best MMO, what is?
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Anonymous2006-11-19 18:46
Frankly, I've never found /v/'s 'consensus' opinion on anything to be worth shit.
Quit fucking cutting / pasting from that guy's blog.
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Anonymous2006-11-20 18:39
>>13
Guildwars perhaps, but not so much of a character simulator if you're looking for one, it leans towards the competitive aspects more than the standard grinding MMO type of gameplay. And thanks to that it keeps the immature kids away.
Besides, if there's any other decent MMO which you don't have to pay a fee and dedicate your entire life to it just to be any competitive please tell me now.
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Anonymous2006-11-20 21:17
I bought a king sized Curse-X Lifetime Membership and now I feel like a king.
Im haxxing with it right now, and I dont think I will ever leave this server because its just soooo private area of haxx ;)
Its called playing a single player RPG and chatting with your friends through AIM and/or the phone.
That's about as close as it'll ever get for a no-monthly fee rpg that you can accomplish stuff in w/o dedicating your life to it.
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Anonymous2006-11-21 11:21
>>14
True. People from /v/ are just a bunch of self-hating weeaboo console-warring adolescent faggots.
Their opinion IS worth next to shit.
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Anonymous2006-11-21 13:33
>>20
There are three problems that arise from WoW: the time it requires to do anything "important" is astounding, it gives people a false sense of accomplishment, and when you're a leader, and get wrapped up in it, no matter how much you care or want people to care, you're doing the wrong thing.
First off, let's go back to the time it takes to accomplish anything in the game. To really be successful, you need to at least invest 12 hours a week, and that is bare minimum. From a leadership perspective, that 12 hours would be laughed at. That's the guy who comes unprepared to raid and has to leave half way through because he has work in the morning or is going out or some other thing that shows "lack of commitment". To the extreme there is the guildie who is always on and ready to help. The "good guildie" who plays about 10 hours a day and seven days a week. Yes, that's almost two full-time jobs. Funny, no one ever asks any questions, though.
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Anonymous2006-11-22 12:16
>Because all these other mmorpgs are just "Space Invaders" clones with "lewt".
That is a fucking insult to space invaders, how dare he and you, compare it to something shittier and not a shooter please, please remember the difference between the two types of games, one has gameplay, the other doesn't.
Not entirely true re: Guild Wars. It's just that accomplishment in Guild Wars involves developing some real player skills: the ability to get along with your party, to adapt to the strategies of other people, and to LISTEN. The fact that it's impossible to becoming overwhelmingly powerful in Guild Wars requires that one becomes instead increasingly sensitive and perceptive.
What turns people off is that they're required to actually interact instead of just jamming the same attack/skill button over and over again.
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Anonymous2006-11-25 5:07
Medieval themed RPG's aren't my thing. That's why I consider Guild Wars and WoW almost nothing to me.
I prefer futuristic enviroments where you have full control of your player - not click this with MOUSE1, then press MOUSE2 over and over and over.
The best game I can think of that appeals to me is the near-death Phantasy Star Online: Blue Burst and Phantasy Star Universe.
As a smart person once said, "Don't like it? Fuck off".
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Anonymous2006-11-25 12:17
25
There was a time when every mmorpg was not a carbon copy of everquest. People who like the concept of mmorpgs might not like the current state of mmorpgs. They're not just going to "fuck off".
When you go out to a fine restaurant, and you are a paying customer. Do you need to be a chef in order to know if the food is bad? No you don't.
You don't need to be the chef in order to know if the food is good or bad.
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Anonymous2006-11-27 0:09
>>29
What >>27 meant to say is that you shouldn't criticize other people's work if you yourself are not capable of doing what they do.
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Anonymous2006-11-27 0:10
Wouldn't it be stupid for a fat person to tell a marathon runner that they suck at running?
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Anonymous2006-11-27 0:27
>>31
no if the fat person has watched a lot of marathons and athetles,like when you watch football games you know that a player sucks by watching a lot of games and comparing him with other players
Right, and instead of sitting there and bitching to the waiter about the crappy food that you got served, you could go into the kitchen and whip up something that better suits your pallet.
Oh no, wait... you can't. You're paying these people to provide something for you that you either cannot or willnot do for yourself.
Don't like what one company has to offer? Go become a customer of a different one. Don't like what any one of them is serving up? Start your own company and make one that you like.
Don't have the means to do that yourself? S.T.F.U. then.
Companies who run these MMOs are in it for the profit, and they profit as long as they're keeping the majority of their customers happy. If YOU know what would make MMOs so much better, go impliment them in your own game and make yourself a fortune. Otherwise, just go away and stop the emo-bitching and whining about how the MMO gaming world isn't revolving around your perception of what it ought to be.
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Anonymous2006-11-27 10:54
WoW character designs are by the same people who made the Burger King.
You know, guys with beards and big cheesy grins that, visually, shout out "I'm not bragging, but my horses cock really IS that huge!"
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Anonymous2006-11-27 12:14
>>30 What >>27 meant to say is that you shouldn't criticize other people's work if you yourself are not capable of doing what they do.
Hahaha oh wow. "Other peoples work"? I suppose that's why Every mmorpg besides UO and EVE has been Everquest.
Really, all those Everquest clones have worked so so hard in creating their own games. /sarcasm
Read what I typed in reply to >>27. The thing is, so many people have been conditioned to Everquest clones that not only would it be difficult to come up with something even remotely "good" for these people. It would be difficult to be even remotely successful with it.
Success usually depends on the number of subs you have. And what some might consider to be a "good" game, others might not.
The majority is not always right, and I'll give an example why.
Something people agree upon is usually something they consider to be "good" or "right".
Something people disagree upon is usually something they consider to be "bad" or "wrong".
When a majority agrees upon something, does that automatically make it right? No.
Does that make it wrong? No.
That makes it subjective.
Someone could make an online game with alot of potentially "good" features. This does not guarantee success if the majority of players are stupid enough to enjoy something like WoW. They will look for something to complain about. This has happened in the past. They will even want previous features from past mmos, in this new game, as nostalgia would cloud their judgement. This has also happened in the past.
From a business standing point. WoW's success cannot be repeated any time soon. WoW breaks down into the lowest common denominator. You can't always make everyone happy but. WoW seems to be decent at making those happy who just want to grind off random mobs all day while watching numbers increase. (A similar scenario with Everquest btw which ruined Ultima Online lol. Because back in the day, more people wanted to grind off random mobs all day while watching numbers increase, instead of having a real virtual world and a game world.)
You don't always have to change a good thing but. Change can be scary to those who (7 mil wow players lol) just like to let their minds turn to mush, and be scratched behind the ears like a bunny rabbit. While they run in circles chewing grass all day, chasing carrots and counting how much grass they have chewed.
Point you lost in your own post is that speaking strictly from a business point of view, what the majority agress upon as being good -is- good business.
They're a company who have invenstors to answer to. Quality is secondary to profitability. Fortunately for us, profitability usually only comes with at least some level of quality.
Besides, you did a pretty large argument about how its all subjective... so why're you here saying these games that millions of people apparently enjoy are crap? No one's twisting your arm to make you play any of these games.
My old point still stands. If you don't like how things are done currently, do it yourself, or just be quiet. There really is no third option. If you want the MMO genere to "improve" and fall more in line with what you think the genere ought to be, all you have to do is produce a working MMO which offers all of what you think would work.
IF people agree with your conceptions of the perfect MMO, you'll no doubt draw customers and the attention of gaming companies who would want to imitate your success.
Otherwise, you're just wanting other people to conform and cater to your particular tastes... which is just a tad too egocentric to make a valid argument with.
Something "good" for business, isn't always good for the consumer.
It's like every high-speed internet provider grouping together to create a monopoly. And even when it's possible to allow a much faster service for cheaper. They'll instead charge triple and provide their customers with high-speed internet which is 20x as slower then it could be. Because their customers don't know any better.
That's how the mmorpg genre is in it's current state. And the players have been conitioned to it.
You know how there will be people who will always want to be right no matter what? They'll argue almost any point which they're involved with, and even start making up shit and lieing about shit just so long as they sound right and other people will think they're right?
Yeah, that's how alot of people who play WoW tend to be.
So even if you provided them with a "different" type of mmorpg which might possibly offer a more immersive and compelling experience. They would still resort to thinking that, playing WoW is "right".
When you say something like, "IF people agree with your conceptions of the perfect MMO, you'll no doubt draw customers and the attention of gaming companies who would want to imitate your success."
This will not happen. Take a look at the condition of the mmorpg genre.
dikuMUD is essentially the term for the game design of Everquest. (ie, kill random mobs, watch numbers increase, grind, character simulator, walking simulator, etc)
Everquest is essentially the model mmorpg which almost every company uses. Because practically every mmo which hasn't been UO or EVE has been diku.
It is easy to copy Everquest. Why would every gaming company want to imitate someone else when they can just continue to copy everquest? They've done it for almost 10 years now. Because they know they can get away with it. And the work is already done for them.
You'd be hard pressed to to make the case that all of the companies who produce MMORPGs are in some kind of multi-national gaming alliance to hinder the development of the genre (thanks for the correction, 37). Unlike ISPs who may or maynot posess a monopoly over services provided in an area, Online gaming is pretty much a free for all.
Neither you nor I have any right to say what is good and what is bad for anyone else to play. If they want to spend their $15/mo on WoW, its within their every right to do so.
The best part about a free market, though, is that if you do indeed create a vastly superior MMORPG, they're free to wander over to your MMO too. (WoW is doomed to die a not-so-pleasant death imo, but that's a different topic)
Of course its easier to continue on with the established fantasy setting and create yet another RPG with trolls and goblins and dragons. But if your "perfect" MMO uses an orginal and/or different gaming concept/world, why wouldn't other companies try to imitate you? Every successful thing has had its share of imitators.
What it boils down to is, again, for you to go make that perfect MMO... because if you can't or won't, then all of this cheap talk is moot.
MMOS ARE FUCKING BORING. GET IN WITH THE TIMES AND PLAY FPS'ES
THE FPS GAMES ARE WHAT REQUIRE SKILL.
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Anonymous2006-12-03 1:35
>>45
Move out of your mom's basement and get a job. It'll be good for you.
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Anonymous2006-12-03 8:04
when you master the art of hit scan, fps gets boring.
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Patlabor2006-12-07 21:40
Holy Belfs! Space Shamans go PEW PEW!!!!!!!!!
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Anonymous2006-12-07 23:44
Battletoads
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Anonymous2006-12-10 23:07
I agree absolutely with 49.
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Anonymous2006-12-10 23:47
I once played a MUD (text based MMO, basically, for the uninitiated) with 200ish players logged in 24/7. It was fully pk/rp; if you didn't pk you got pked, and if you didn't rp you got banned by the admins, period.
The point was competition, the reward was better PvP with a character who had a limited supply of lives and with enemies you could PERMANENTLY KILL. This is ideal; however any MMO with this model is doomed to failure and will eventually die.
Basically the point of the game was to rank up and kill players. The point of ranking up was getting new skills and having a slightly different experience with a slightly different group of people. The time spent leveling was the investment, and killing a player, looting their corpse of all their items, and bringing them one step closer to permanent character death (yes, 50 deaths and their character was DEAD PERMANENTLY) invalidated the time they spent playing and validated yours.
The game was great until a strange phenomenon started happening. People began to realize that it wasn't DYING that made them lose, but the FEELING of LOSS they experienced as a result. This realization gave birth to "trash" characters, who basically acted like the population of /b/. I.E. they trolled hard: they would die 10 times and delete just to take some of your equipment and destroy it. These people were often very succeptible to their own methods, and a rise of better players who trashed HARDER than even THEY did rose up to destroy them. I was among this group.
Unfortunately the ten or so people who did this basically mastered the game and proceeded to troll the rest of the game so hard that an entirely new group of people was created: the "carebears" or "RP-Nazis". These players came up with the absurd idea that PK and RP were polar opposites; that PK equaled the absense of RP and that players with huge kill-counts were breaking the rules.
A carebear eventually inherited the game from the retiring owner and mutilated it, now there are 12 characters online at peak hours.
Thanks for reading my TL;DR post, made to explain how the only way to make an MMO good is intense PvP competition and that even the best MMO is doomed to failure via the 4chan element: being trolled REALLY REALLY HARD.
Been playing WoW over a year.
Not ruining my life, not doing a damn thing but being another game to play.
If it ruins someone's life, it's that person's fault for being a dumbass about it.
And who the hell plays an MMORPG with the idea that they'll never have to grind anything?
Might as well complain that video games are "just interactive videos" that are all boring because they require "some sort of movement".
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Anonymous2007-03-12 4:03 ID:lmckx0cb
I know many people who play wow and it dose take a degree of skill to spec your char and it takes skill to PvP thats all ima say.