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GC is shit

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 9:18

discuss

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 9:19

One word: dynamic typing.
Thread over!

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 9:29

Trolls these days charge 2 beets. Discuss.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 10:35

This thread should be collected by GC.

But it won't since all implementations of GC are shit.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 10:37

Just came here to say that GC is shit and C++ is the best.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 12:13

ONE WORD FORCED COLLECTION OF GARBAGE THREAD OVER

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 12:34

>>4
Like collects like!

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 12:56

It sure is!

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 14:54

Garbage Collection is overly weak and complicated and were conceived in a time when computation was not yet mainstream or accessible.

Manual memory management like malloc and free is a much better attempt at trying to solve the problems Garbage Collectors first ``set'' out to solve.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 15:27

I CAN'T TELL WHICH SIDE IS THE TROLL IN THIS DEBATE

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 15:32

>>10
I can't tell trolls from genuine poster here anymore. Poe's Law applies to the whole board, now.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 16:51

The problem I have with proponents of GC is that they take a very militant stance against manual memory management: as if manual memory management, programming languages which feature manual memory management, and programmers who use such languages must be eradicated from the face of the Earth, as if they were some kind of disease.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 16:56

>>9
kill yourself faggot

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 17:33

>>13
You don't belong here. Quit now before all references to you disappear and you become garbage, insolent construction!

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 18:26

>>14
you do that, lithpfag

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 18:33

>>15
You're so silly that you don't even realize that the one you're replying to probably is a C fan. Instead you recognize patterns of ``awesomeness'' that some Lispers excude (but not exclusively), and thus call everyone who you feel is superior to you names. Oh, such primitive monkey-like social behavior.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 19:15

>>16
Aaaaand yhbt. I didn't even expect it to be so easy, but there it is, seven words is all it took.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 19:35

This thread is [b][i][u]ENTERPRISE[/b][/i][/u] quality!

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 19:53

>>17
Joke's on you, I was only pretending to be retarded!

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 22:00

manual memory management is stupid.
garbage collection is stupid.
non-cyclical semantics with reference counting and no side effects is the master race.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 22:58

>>22
Nice dubz.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 22:58

check 'em

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 22:59

check 'em

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-07 23:00

>>23
YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 6:22

>>19
No, you really are retarded.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 6:32

Actually, the right thing is an hybrid between malloc:free, reference counting, and garbage collection, using one only when the previous becomes too complex.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 8:24

>>26
reference counting
No.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 9:03

>>24
Nevertheless, the mission was accomplished: a shitthread was used for its only worthy purpose, dubz mining, even if it wasn't by me.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 9:16

>>28
What makes this shit thread?

Certainly better than your average /prog/ thread (ok that does not make it non-shit).

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 9:20

>>27
In some rare cases, reference counting is the best way.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 9:40

>>29
There were like two posts which namedropped some tech jargon without making any arguments, and the rest was just either unadultered or meta-shitpostery, just like the rest of /prog/.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 9:50

>>30
In some rare cases, GC is the best way.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 9:54

Can disable GC in lisp/scheme/haskell just for block of code?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 10:07

>>33
You can in D.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 10:12

>>34
>>33 can. But can I?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 10:37

>>35
As far as i can tell /prog/ never required expert english knowlege

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 12:22

>>36
Using the `one' pronoun instead of `you' when referring to a lambda person isn't what I would call expert-level English knowledge.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 13:29

>>32
In some rare cases, manual memory management is thSegmentation fault.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 14:04

>>38
You are incompetent programmer if your manual memory management causes segmentation fault.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 14:07

>>39 is right. The only way a competent programmer can cause segmentation fault is with off-by-one errors and such.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 14:23

>>40
And accidentally freeing memory that is still needed somewhere. But besides this and off-by-one errors and such there's no way a competent programmer could cause segmentation faults with manual memory management.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 14:26

>>37
lambda person

ITWABT!

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 14:35

>>41
What you are describing is incompetence. Competent programmer is disciplined enough to manage memory manually and safely.

Java and Lisp programmers, for example, are almost always incompetent.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 14:47

>>43
Why can't there be a single post on /prog/ that isn't either a lame attempt at trolling or just plain retarded?

Could anyone recommend another forum?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 14:51

>>40
My point is that GC will not protect one from off-by-one errors.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 15:07

>>44
Try reddit or hackernews

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 15:14

>>46
Correct.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 15:27

>>46
I guess I wanted an r/programming with less Python vs. Ruby bickering than Reddit, something in between the current subreddit and Lambda the Ultimate like /prog/was once, it seems. Maybe it's just a matter of signal to noise ratio.

On that same vein, Hacker News mostly produces high-brow sounding noise. The opinions which you find there are rarely more informed than Reddit's, lacking the contributions of actual academics and experts. It's mostly a bunch of over-serious pseudo-nerds in their twenties who want to sound like adults.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 15:46

>>48
It's mostly a bunch of over-serious pseudo-nerds in their twenties who want to sound like adults.
That's the Internet, retard.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 16:16

>>48
Your only chance to find such a place is to go back in time.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 16:18

>>49
But it's stronger on Hacker News, you shit posting faggot fucker.

Go eat Paul Graham's shit and die.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 16:59

>>51
u be mad nao. clam down b4 u burst, faggot

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 19:39

>>51 is a huge fag

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 19:43

>>52
>>53
ur fagz lol go suk dik for enterprise fagstroms

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 20:03

>>48
You're really not going to find that anywhere anymore, sadly. I would suggest places to you, but this board is too infested with low signal noise for me to tell you publicly.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 20:05

Also, check 'em.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 20:14

>>55
please tell me, i need some new places to shit up

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 20:15

>>57
boards.4chan.org/b/

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 20:19

>>58
already shat it up, are you blind or something?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 20:38

>>59
Ooooh, getting personal.

I just saw that it bothered you. Didn't expect that. But do tell me what I'm missing. I already know that you have been here for long, longer than myself. Not that it would matter.

I think I recall some guy with your writing style some months back saying that he was trying to shitpost /prog/ into catharsis. Well, obviously that didn't work.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 20:58

manual memory management increases complexity, and you blubbing assholes don't even see how.

Having some form of automatic memory management makes it so there is absolutely 0 reason not to share resources. There's no overhead whatsoever to doing things that are "bad design" in C++, and no risks either. The secret is that it's not "bad design." It's just a new technique you can do without fear of OH GOD THE MANUAL REFERENCE COUNTING SYSTEM I MADE CAN'T HANDLE CYCLES AND AH FUCK IT.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-08 23:52

All implementations of GC are slow as hell.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 5:38

RAII (Resource Acquisition Is Initialization) makes manual memory management safe and easy.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 7:28

>>60
I created this thread and it seems to be going pretty well.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 7:47

OP here
>>64 is lying

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 7:55

Check my dubz! It's also dubz both in base 21 and 32, ha ha ha oh my!

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 8:06

>>66
Quintessence of autism.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 8:18

I think we reached the consensus that GC is shit except when there are cyclical references, which are a sign of bad design.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 8:44

unique_ptr is the ultimate solution

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 9:07

FUCKING GAMECUBE

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 9:10

>>70
U wot m8?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 9:15

>>68
Not really. GC is da shit except when object lifetime can reliably be determined in advance, in which case you should use manual memory management unless you want to receive my five dollar footlong up your greasy anus.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 9:21

Guys, guys, listen, guys!

66 is dubz in bases 10 (which itself is dubz in base 4), 21 (which itself is dubz in base 6 and tripz in base 4), and 32 (which itself is dubz in bases 7 (which itself is tripz in base 2) and 15 (which itself is dubz in base 4 and quadz in base 2))!

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 10:46

>>73
You just invented the science of Dubz Analysis. Congratulations, y'oure part of history now.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 12:12

You might be surprised but math autists have an entire system of "special numbers" and "sequences" of which dubz is merely a speck in the number line.
reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Integer_sequences

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 12:20

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 12:21

>>75
They haven't added this discovery of "Dubz Cardinals" so its incomplete.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 12:25

The Dubz Cardinals - sounds like a great band name for a retro rock band

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 12:37

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-09 12:42

>>79
Oh, thats almost like the dubz cardinals but they haven't discovered them..yet.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-10 7:24

So is there any speed benchmarks about garbage collection vs manual memory managment? Is there really so big penalty in using GC?

Or is this thread just trolling?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-10 7:40

>>81
Garbage collection is on par with or better than manual memory management when there are lots of cycles. Otherwise it's much slower.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-10 8:33

>>81

If there weren't significant performance difference, everyone would use garbage collected languages.

However, the difference is so huge that anything that is important (drivers, kernels, etc) is written with the consideration of the lowest level, so using c,c++ and even assembly.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-10 9:11

>>83
implying you can't use garbage collectors in assembly.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-10 9:21

>>84
A language is more than just a tool, it is a mindset. And a programmer with an assembly language mindset would use a garbage collector only in really exceptional circonstances.
Also, some languages implicitly force the implementations to do garbage collection.

P.S. Go back to /g/, ``please''!!

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-10 10:45

check

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-10 10:45

my

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-10 10:45

<---- doubles

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-10 11:20

>>85
A language is more than just a tool, it is a mindset.
For people who have no mindset of their own -- maybe.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-10 11:30

>>89
Like a wise man once said, a Real Programmer can write Fortran programs in any language.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-10 11:40

>>90
I just puked a lot in my mouth.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-10 12:31

>>91
You need to open your mouth, idiot.

Anyways, GC is shit

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-10 12:52

>>92
GC is great. You are shit.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-10 13:00

>>93
GC is jewish. You are mom.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-11 3:03

the stack/heap distinction is useless and distracting.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-12 17:58

GC is shit.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-12 18:06

GC is clit.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-12 19:36

>>94
Your mom is jewish. You are fat.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 9:38

one word: Azul's C4 pauseless garbage collector

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 13:02

OP here

I just wanted to say I'm glad this managed to get 100 post thread.

Also, GC is shit.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 14:05

GC is great. fuck off and die, faggots

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 14:27

http://blog.buschnick.net/2010/02/garbage-collection-considered-harmful.shtml

http://john.freml.in/static-blog/tsac-harmful-garbage/talk.pdf

>>101
Now, how is GC great? It might not be shit, but certainly not great. I think GC is ok for scripting and prototyping, when you want fast results and quality doesn't matter.

I hate it when I have to run slow real world programs written in Java or C#. Damn.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 14:36

>>102
What I like about GC and managed code in general (I hate JVM/.NET, though) is that the worst thing retards can do is write inefficient code. Make the exact same retards write C code and you're on for a load of buffer (under|over)flows, security holes and segmentation faults.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 14:49

>>103
That is true. I hate those retard programmers.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 15:03

>>102
you clearly don't actually understand those articles.

manual memory management is a distraction. There's no reason to manually manage memory and not manually manage CPU registers. It's a hardware detail that C/C++ actually already put a layer of abstraction over (the stack/1D heap abstraction) that isn't even that good.

Everybody who cares about shipping feature-rich good products and doesn't care about hardware-level performance wants automatic memory management.

Whether various garbage collection algorithms (or the idea of GC, as opposed to, say, reference counting) is good is a matter for the guys who write them, not the guy who use them.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 15:11

>>103
That should be exactly what you dislike about managed code in general.  You're essentially saying that you like managed code because it encourages bad programming by softening the consequences.

The only logical conclusion is that you are a 66retard programmer.99  But hey, at least you can stick with managed code and be safe.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 15:24

>>106
Your last paragraph gives me the urge to decapitate you then proceeding to fucking your skull. Leaving that aside, I would much rather have inefficient than insecure software. Sure, in an ideal world where all programmers are superheros and never make any mistakes, managed code is probably pointless. But this is the real world and if managed code is what it will take to prevent fucktards from making my system insecure, then managed code it will be.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 16:23

>>107
So, which is it?  Are you talking about the real world, or fantasy world?  Because this statement:

if managed code is what it will take to prevent fucktards from making my system insecure
is only true in fantasy world.  The only logical conclusion is that you are a 66retard programmer.99  But hey, at least you can stick with managed code and be safe.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 16:57

>>108
Your last paragraph gives me the urge to decapitate you then proceeding to fucking your skull. Leaving that aside, you gave no arguments to your statement.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 17:45

>>108
Dumbass, nobody ever made a security hole in PHP.  Can you say the same about C?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 17:53

>>109
Your last paragraph gives me the urge to decapitate you then proceeding to fucking your skull.
Then I'd say it was equally as successful this time as it was the first time it made you butt ranged.

>you gave no arguments to your statement
I don't think any arguments are really needed to justify the statement that managed code does not make a system secure.  It would save everyone time if you would at least read a Wikipedia article before pretending to be an authority on a subject when you are clearly just a 66retard programmer.99.

>>110
Did you forget [sarcasm] tags or do you really not no anything at all about programming?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 18:35

>>111
Managed code does prevent a lot of security flaws that even experienced programmers may create.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 23:24

the essence of programming is selective detail ignorance.

If you aren't writing a memory manager, you should be ignorant of memory.

Simple.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 23:29

>>113
Now >>111's going to go Postal on your anus.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-13 23:38

>>113

+1

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 0:42

>>38
I like youSegmentation fault

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 2:48

>>113
Your example is valid only if you're willing to allow it to be extended to:
If you aren't writing a memory manager, you should be ignorant of memory.  However, if your program manipulates large amounts of data, then you need to write a memory manager.

All you've done is rename the job.  There's some merit to that.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 3:50

However, if your program manipulates large amounts of data, then you need to write a memory manager.

No it doesn't. Lots of general-purpose memory managers have already been written. You need a good reason to reinvent the wheel.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 3:52

>>118
writing your own atoi function and writing your own memory management have a lot in common, actually. Yours will suck, and it's a waste of time anyway.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 4:03

Did you hear?! GC is so shit, that Microsoft got rid of it from the .NET virtual machine for Windows 8 and made it optional.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 6:20

>>120
There's far more compelling reasons to get rid of .NET aside from its shitty GC implementation.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 9:32

>>121
Yeah? Like what?

.NET is inefficient in modern/future multiprocessor environments, and it's because of GC.

Sure it sucks to free your own memory, but it sucks more to use GC.

Also, with good programming principles there really won't be any memory leaks (RAII for example).

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 13:12

>>122
1) .NET lacks an incremental garbage collector because it's a giant, retarded monster. It sucks on multicore systems because side-effect-heavy OOP (read: retarded bullshit) is built in to the very core of the VM.

2) RAII is a coping mechanism for manual memory management and a way to deal with side effects. It's nothing special. C#'s "using" syntax or Common Lisp's UNWIND-PROTECT do the same thing more explicitly.

The only reason you feel the need to hide deallocation in "}"'s is because MEMORY REALLY IS NOT SOMETHING YOU SHOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT. There's no need at all to go to the trouble of essentially writing your own memory monads over and over. Furthermore, piggybacking other resources on the lifetimes of memory objects is just a hack, and hides things that really should be made explicit. This is a common trend in C++ -- hide things that should not be hidden, expose things that should be hidden.

RAII is the most oversold piece of shit technique around.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 13:56

>>123
This is a common trend in C++ -- hide things that should not be hidden, expose things that should be hidden.
Amen.  This is probably the failure of C++, and it goes far beyond memory management.  Memory management is actually bearable in C++, but it does require the programmer to actually make an effort.  Take this as a troll if you want, but it sure beats GC.  And while RAII isn't the everything-to-everyone solution to the problem, it is convenient.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 15:56

>>124
Languages that feature GC usually feature escape analysis as well.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 17:45

You know what's even better? The compiler analyses the code and does memory management by itself. I think this is difficult because C has aliasing?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 18:08

>>126
Forget it, it's halting-complete.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 18:15

>>126
Yes, it has has aliasing, but it also lets the programmer tell what pointers don't alias through the restrict keyword. Most C/C++ compilers also have extensions to denote that a function doesn't have any side-effects, but it requires the programmer to be vigilant, it won't detect errors when those "pure" functions do in fact modify state. It's just used as an optimization technique for static memoization.

Name: tdavis 2011-09-14 19:02

I've never seen GC, but it sounds like a failed attempt to make things easier.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-14 21:21

>>126
it's difficult because C's type system is really only good for proving how big things are at compile time, not proving anything really interesting about run-time behavior.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 2:37

>>126
Here's a hint: if >>127 was wrong we'd be trying to solve memory allocation. It can't be solved dynamically, let alone statically like you propose.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 14:23

Purely functional programming languages solve the problem of memory allocation, but at what price.

On another note, I never understood why purely functional programming language designers are so keen on strong typing. Type inference goes a very long way in purely FP language compilers, so why force the programmer to write tons of extra bullshite?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 15:39

>>132
Purely functional programming languages solve the problem of memory allocation
No, they don't.  You can write a program that will run out of memory or cause a stack overflow in a functional language.  The problem of memory allocation isn't just "when should I delete some pointer."

Forget languages: You have a computer with finite resources and you have some algorithm that you want that computer to perform.  "Solving" the problem of memory allocation would mean that your compiler (in whatever language) would look at your program and tell you up front either "Yes, I can run this program and it will require N bytes of memory" or "No, there is not enough memory to run this program."

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 17:32

>>133
Wait, I thought we were discussing GC here. I figured the mem. alloc. problem is just to exit with an error when there is not enough memory. The GC problem on the other hand, I thought was simply to know when to call free on blocks that we are not going to reference anymore.

I don't really see clearly why that is such a problem to do using code analysis. After all, if there are no references to some piece of memory anymore in the code then clearly it won't be in the program...

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 18:23

>>134
The point of GC is exactly that -- to avoid that error message about there not being enough memory.  Programs could choose to just never free any allocations and most of them work just fine.  But even though 4GB is fairly standard these days, and modern OSes use page files to extend further, it's still finite.

Imagine writing an MP3 player that loaded the entire file into memory, decompressed it, played it, and then just left it there.  You'd have to close it and restart it after a few hours of music.

You can't solve the problem with code analysis, as >>127 and >>131 pointed out.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 18:42

I'm pretty new to programming, only about 5 years of active experience. When I began I was basically taught via the IDEs that did everything for you and over time through experimenting with editors like emacs and vim I can't see why anyone would want a IDE.  To be honest alot of those advanced features with IDEs really annoyed me and usually got in the way. I think the o my thing I consider of value is the highlighting of syntax. 

Also I've noticed that most people now a days have not a clue what to do when it comes to command line.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 18:58

>>135
Do you have anything I can read that says why (in more technical terms) you can do memory management via code analysis? I am interested and can't find anything on wikipedia and don't know what to search for.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 19:06

>>135
In data/flow-oriented programming, you can determine memory usage upper-bounds and data lifetimes from the task dependency graph and transformation lattice, and implicitly and deterministically destroy objects when they go out of the lattice's scope. It's like how things work on a call stack, only instead of a stack, it's a lattice.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 19:09

>>138
And I forgot to add that stack and lattice computation models can be made Turing complete and therefore suitable for universal computation.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 19:14

>>138
Sounds like the future of programming!

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 19:53

>>140
I think Fortran used to do only the stack. And now it doesn't anymore.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 22:09

>>138,140
Yes but then you have to live with yet another shit paradigm shift, which is mostly why languages like Haskell will never catch on. It's really just a matter of research; eventually the compiler writers, both AOT or JIT, will wake up and integrate those techniques. To be honest, a compiler that can but doesn't perform that analysis isn't worth its salt.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 22:57

Some faggot in this thread claimed that memory management through code analysis is undecidable. Is this true or what? Seems like complete crap to me.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 23:12

>>143
It's halting-complete.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-15 23:50

>>137,143
Write a program that draws the Mandelbrot set.  If the current pixel is inside the set, allocate a byte.  If the current pixel is not inside the set, free a byte.  How much memory will the program use?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-16 0:22

>>145
$\infty$

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-16 0:37

>>145
OMG. I am not asking you to decide how much memory a program uses. I want a program that frees memory that is not referenced anymore statically.

How does the latter imply the former?

>>144
I thought halting complete meant undecidable. What's the definition of halting complete anyway?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-16 1:50

>>147
when I think of how to do what you're describing, my first instinct is to run the program and collect information while I do so, but I have no way to prove that the program will terminate.

I can't really think of a way to use type-logic to determine what will happen to memory. What do you do about branching logic?

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-16 1:52

>>148
Branching logic is halting-complete.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-16 2:02

>>149
what? I'm talking about in the case that you don't run the code and gather information. In the case that you use a really powerful type system / theorem-proving language to decide all the possible things memory could do.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-16 2:24

>>145
Just reserve a byte for every single pixel at the current resolution at which you're drawing the Mandlebrot set ahead of time. That's your upperbound.

Name: Anonymous 2011-09-16 2:27

>>151
This. Establishing an upper bound for memory is far easier to do and possible with static analysis techniques. You need to be able to handle the worst-case scenarios anyway, if you don't have enough memory to do that, you're trying to do too much with your computational hardware.

Name: Anonymous 2012-03-22 15:28

GC is shit.

Name: Anonymous 2012-03-22 15:58

>>155
Do I even have to say it anymore? You know the drill by now.

Name: Anonymous 2012-03-22 16:06

RAII is best,
GC is shit,
I love smart pointers

Name: uUUuuUu Uu 2012-03-22 16:07

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Name: Anonymous 2012-03-22 16:08

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Name: Anonymous 2012-03-22 16:08

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Uuu  UuUUuUuUuUUuUUUuUUUUUuuUUuUuUUU uuU  uuUuUuUu uuUuuuu  Uu  uuUUuuUuUuuuuuUuU uUUuuuUUUU UuuUUuUuUUuUUU uuUuUuUUUuUuUu uUUUuuuUuU UuUUUU UUuUuuuUUUUU uuUuU uUu uUuUuu  uUUu uuuUUuUuUU uu u UUuUUUUUuuu uuuUU UUUuUUuU  UuUuuU uuuuuuuUUuuuUu uU  U uUUuuuUuUUUUUUuUUUuUUuuU uuU uuUuuUuu u  UUuuUUuuUuuUu UuU UuuUuuUuUu U uU UuU uUuUuuu UUUuUuuUuU uUuuuuUuuUUUu uuU UuU uu uuuuuu  uuuU UUuuuuuuUUuuUUuuuUUUuuUu  uU u uuUuuUUuU UUuu UUUUU uUU uUuu UUuU uUUUuuUUu uuUuU uUuuUUuuuUUUUUUuuuuuUuu  UUuuUuuUuU UuuUuUuuu u  uUUU Uu uuuuUUuu UUUUUuu Uu uUU UUUuUuUu U uUUUUUU u U Uu UUUuUUuuUuUUUUUUUUUUuuUUUUuUUuuU U uuUuu u  UuuUUuuuUU u UUUuUuuuUUUuUUuUUUuUuUuU   UUuUuuuUu uuUuuuuUuUU UuUUUUuUuUuUuuuU UUuuuu uuuUUuuuuUuUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUu  UUuuU uuuU uu UuU UUU UuUUuuuuUUu  uUUuu UuU  UUUuu   uUuUu  uUuuUUUUuUuuUu uU  U Uu UuuUuuuuuUuuUuuuuU uUU  uuuUuUuuuUuuu u uuu UUuUUUuuUUU   u uuuUUUUUu uuUUU uu UUUUuuUuuUuuUU uU uuUuuuuUuuUUuUuuUUUuUU UuUuUuuuuUUU uuu u UUuuu UU UUuUuUUUuuuU uUuuuUuuu uUuuUUuUuUUUuuUUuuUUUuu UU UUU u UUUuUuUuuUUu uUUuuuuUUuUUUUUuuuUuuUuUu

Name: Anonymous 2012-03-22 16:45

>>156-158
If it ain't tomot, it's crap.

Name: Anonymous 2012-03-22 19:54

>>156-158
I thought I was playing Dwarf Fortress for a second and my fingers flew to the Embark map move and resize binds.

Name: Anonymous 2012-05-02 8:11

GC is shit.

Name: Anonymous 2012-05-02 8:25

>>11
I could never memorize Poe's law. I always mixed it up with that law about internet discussions and nazis.

Name: Anonymous 2012-05-02 14:21

>>159
where's the original one?

Name: Anonymous 2012-05-02 17:29

IF U WERE KILLED TOMORROW, I WOULDNT GO 2 UR FUNERAL CUZ ID B N JAIL 
4 KILLIN DA NIGGA THAT KILLED U!                                     
..... , ,_____________________                                       
..... / `---___________----_____|]                                   
...../_==o;;;;;;;;_______|                                           
.... / ______|                                                       
.....), _(__) /                                                      
....// (..) ), ----"                                                 
...//___//                                                           
..//___//                                                            
.//___//                                                             
WE TRUE HOMIES                                                       
WE RIDE TOGETHER                                                     
WE DIE TOGETHER                                                      
send this GUN to every thread you care about including this one if   
you care. C how many times you get this, if you get 13 your A TRUE   
HOMIE

Name: Anonymous 2012-05-04 14:30

ONE WORD THE FORCED SEGMENTATION FAULT OF THE CODE THREAD OVER

Name: Anonymous 2012-05-04 20:15

>>165
i'll upboats this

Name: Anonymous 2012-07-31 15:54

Many languages that ofter the kinds of memory safety guarentees that Rust does have a single allocation strategy: objects live on the heap, live for as long as they are needed, and are periodically garbage collected. This is very straightforword both conceptually and in implementation, but has very significant costs. Such languages tend to aggressively pursue ways to ameliorate allocation costs (think the Java virtual machine). Rust supports this strategy with shared boxes, memory allocated on the heap that may be referred to (shared) by multiple variables.

In comparison, languages like C++ offer a very precise control over where objects are allocated. In particular, it is common to put them directly on the stack, avoiding expensive heap allocation. In Rust this is possible as well, and the compiler will use a clever lifetime analysis to ensure that no variable can refer to stack objects after they are destroyed.

GC is just an easy solution for retarded language designers.

Name: Anonymous 2012-07-31 17:50

>>167
GC doesn't play any role in language design.

Name: Anonymous 2012-07-31 19:13

>>167
a single allocation strategy: objects live on the heap, live for as long as they are needed, and are periodically garbage collected.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=escape+analysis

Name: Anonymous 2012-07-31 19:25

Go is a "systems programming language"...that forces GC!

Name: Anonymous 2012-07-31 20:20

>>170
Indeed, which makes it safer than C, since it's less likely that inept programmers will screw it up.
It's not like you need manual memory allocation in userland programs.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 1:56

>>171
>safer than C
Might as well use Java. At least Java supports exceptions, runs in more places, executes faster, and more code available to copy and paste review. Go is a joke.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 5:54

>>172
exceptions
That's an argument for Go.

runs in more places
If you compile Go with GCCGO, it runs pretty much anywhere. The only thing you need to do is to recompile it, which takes about as long as a Java compilation.

executes faster
Oh, please. A Go program starts up about as fast as a C one and will often finish before the Java program comes to main.

more code available to copy and paste
And all of it is shit. You don't really need copy and paste in Go, since it isn't designed to use so much unintuitive boilerplate code.

Java is a joke and so are you.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 6:10

A Go program starts up about as fast as a C one and will often finish before the Java program comes to main.
public static final strictfp zing

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 6:25

>>173
Java is a joke and so are you.
Not the guy you're replying to but somehow you think Go is more mature than Java? It doesn't even support long lived processes on 32 bit, the GC runs out of memory in no time since it can't tell the difference between a value and a pointer.

Go is the joke, Java is more like satirical comedy.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 6:50

>>174
% cat echo.go
package main
import (
   "fmt"
   "os"
)
func main() {
   //for i := 1; i < len(os.Args); i++ {
   for i, arg := range os.Args[1:] {
       if i != 0 {
           //os.Stdout.WriteString(" ")
           fmt.Print(" ")
       }
       //os.Stdout.WriteString(os.Args[i])
       fmt.Print(arg)
   }
   //os.Stdout.WriteString("\n")
   fmt.Println()
}
% time go build echo.go
go build echo.go  0.77s user 0.08s system 99% cpu 0.860 total
% for i in {1..3}; do time ./echo qwe asd; done
qwe asd
./echo qwe asd  0.01s user 0.00s system 90% cpu 0.011 total
qwe asd
./echo qwe asd  0.01s user 0.00s system 93% cpu 0.012 total
qwe asd
./echo qwe asd  0.00s user 0.00s system 88% cpu 0.011 total

As you can the Go program starts in a few milliseconds.

% cat Echo.java
public class Echo {
   public static void main(String []args) {
       for (int i = 0; i < args.length; i++) {
           if (i != 0) {
               System.out.print(" ");
           }
           System.out.print(args[i]);
       }
       System.out.print("\n");
   }
}
% time javac Echo.java
javac Echo.java  1.87s user 0.18s system 112% cpu 1.834 total
% for i in {1..3}; do time java Echo qwe asd; done
qwe asd
java Echo qwe asd  0.23s user 0.05s system 100% cpu 0.282 total
qwe asd
java Echo qwe asd  0.24s user 0.05s system 101% cpu 0.280 total
qwe asd
java Echo qwe asd  0.23s user 0.05s system 101% cpu 0.279 total

The Java program, on the other hand, takes twice as long to build and needs over 250 ms to run.

% for i in {1..3}; do time go run echo.go qwe asd; done
qwe asd
go run echo.go qwe asd  0.79s user 0.09s system 99% cpu 0.880 total
qwe asd
go run echo.go qwe asd  0.79s user 0.08s system 99% cpu 0.870 total
qwe asd
go run echo.go qwe asd  0.79s user 0.08s system 99% cpu 0.873 total

In comparison, I can compile and run a Go echo in about three times the duration the Java program needs to merely run.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 12:31

>>173
Oh, please. A Go program starts up about as fast as a C one and will often finish before the Java program comes to main.
statements that are easily verifiable as wrong
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php?calc=chart&java=on&go=on

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 13:52

>>173
Exceptions (or similar constructs using jmp operators) are necessary to build reliable software. They are often more efficient than the alternatives, like passing around error codes to which Go does not offer anything else. See >>177-san's comments about Go's performance, or lack thereof. This once again dispels ``compiled to platform menas fast,'' yet another bad idea Go was built around. I don't particularly like Java anyway (I prefer C++). Java has its own problems, but it's a lot better than Go. You're not doing Go any favors by criticizing Java.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 13:58

>>177
You ARE aware that the startup time for Java programs in the benchmark game have been taken out of the measurements right? (only Java at that)
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/help.php#java

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 14:05

>>179
It's the start-up time for the JVM that was taken out.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 14:27

>>180
And? The Java ones have zero startup time as a result, only the overhead of a static method call. The rest of the language implementations have their total startup time counted, many of them have VMs.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 14:39

>>178
Exceptions (or similar constructs using jmp operators) are necessary to build reliable software.
Untrue. You can as easily write reliable software with alternate error handling and Go's error return parameters do the job well. In fact, they even get rid of a common ``feature'' that actually makes exceptions less reliable: your programs will no longer abort just because you've forgotten to handle whichever exception something may throw. Exceptions introduce problems of their own and are not nearly the best and ultimate way to handle errors.

They are often more efficient than the alternatives, like passing around error codes
Haha, you're funny. Please, do tell me how exactly is stack unwinding more efficient than, say, errno or returning a value?

to which Go does not offer anything else.
Another piece of disinformation. Go offers the panic/recover mechanism, which is basically what your exceptions are. However, you shouldn't use it for standard errors, only for truly catastrophic failures that make the continuation of this program (at least this piece of it) impossible.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 19:25

I don't even have JVM installed on any machine I run, on fucking principle. Guess whether or not I've written in JAVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 21:14

>>175
It doesn't even support long lived processes on 32 bit, the GC runs out of memory in no time since it can't tell the difference between a value and a pointer.
They need a conservative GC so they can do pointer arithmetic. Go was designed as a systems language, after all. What's that I hear? Go doesn't have pointer arithmetic? They released Go ``1.0'' with a broken GC because they couldn't be bothered to write one that keeps track of pointers? It sure shows how much Google cares about their new language.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 21:27

>>182
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class at MIT, and I've been involved in numerous Agile/SCRUM gatherings for my work, and I have over 300 confirmed commits to my git repository. I am trained in Enterprise Java Programming and I'm the top code monkey in the entire Software Industry. You are nothing to me but just logic error to debug. I will comment you the fuck out with scope the likes of which has never been seen before on this JVM, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting the oracle headquarters and your IP is being piped through an interface written in visual basic. Now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little code you call "Software". You're fucking compiled, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can write a Hello World in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with Assembly. Not only am I extensively trained in Network administration, but I have access to the entire GNU C Library and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of my monitor, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have truncated your input. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot.I will shit unformatted code all over your face and you will drown in it. You're fucking decompiled, Skiddo.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 21:36

>>175,184
I admit that Go's GC could be better (in fact, they do plan to improve it sometime in the future).
However, the current one, while suboptimal, works. Not too well, but sufficiently enough to do its job. While it's true that it may miss some objects sometimes, that should happen very rarely, so it shouldn't be a problem for a few months of the program's uptime in the worst case.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 21:41

>>185
lolol u mad bro u mad bro
suck my dick, faggot

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-01 22:15

>>184
They need a conservative GC
fucking right-wing dipshits

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-02 3:41

>>188
/prog/ stands for reactionary rock.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-02 16:37

>>176
Java scales better. JVM start up time is a ridiculous thing to care about, since 99% of the time the JVM will be always running on a production server.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-27 6:40

Found this in rationale saying why GCC should be written in C++



- GCC generates temporary garbage which is only freedby ggc collect.
-- ggc collect is expensive–scales by total memory usage.

- C++ permits reference counting smart pointers.
-- Fast allocation.
-- Lower total memory usage.
-- Copying a pointer adds an increment instruction.
-- Letting a pointer go out of scope adds a decrement and a test.
-- Reference counts are normally in memory cache, unlike ggc collect.

- We may want to use a mixture of reference counting and garbage collection.




So there you have it. GC is shit. C forces GC, C++ does not. Therefore C is also shit while C++ is not.

Name: Cudder !MhMRSATORI!fR8duoqGZdD/iE5 2012-08-27 7:05

>>191
GCC is horribly bloated anyway, in typical GNU style.

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-27 9:17

>>192
I never understood why people hate GNU so much; then I tried reading some glibc code

Name: Anonymous 2012-08-27 15:47

>>191
ref counting
worse than GC

Name: Anonymous 2012-09-05 11:08

http://3d.benjamin-thaut.de/?p=20

TLDR:
Garbage collection: 71 FPS, 14.0 ms frametime
Manual memory management: 142.8 FPS, 7.02 ms frametime

Name: Anonymous 2012-09-05 11:29

This is only a problem for toy programs. Real programs comes with a specification that states the amount of memory needed. Not less, not more!

Name: Anonymous 2012-09-05 11:31

Yeah, if it doesn't include SQL Server it's not a real program.

Name: Anonymous 2012-09-05 11:46

>>197

SQL Server is garbage, a black buggy hole, it's really simple to make it crap on itself. Sure in some cases a relational database might seem to be needed, but in the end it just means that you handed over a great part of your code to a black shitty hole. That's not a real program in my book.

Name: Anonymous 2012-09-05 12:10

>>198

And it implies your program will handle an unspecified amount of data, which per definition makes it a lala-land-toy program in my book.

Name: Anonymous 2012-09-05 13:16

>>196
only works if you never have to deal with user input of any kind, or even basic data structures

Don't change these.
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