Programming is a way to make programs

Nothing more.

Satori, if it's even real, is just an affliction that make you unable to care about coding because you've distanced yourself from the real world so much.


Stop making threads about metaphysical nonsense.

Playing a musical instrument is just a way to makes sound waves. Nothing more.

A film is just colored points on a screen. Nothing more

>>2
>>3
I think you're trying to make a point here, but since I agree with you I'm unsure as to what you're driving at.

>>1
Is that relevant to /prog/ or is it just your way of saying "i cant achieve Satori"

Satori is about been able to see through every concept, the ability to construct any level of sophistication in a computer program...

I'ma go read SICP

>>5
Is that relevant to the topic at hand or just your way of saying "I CAN CODE IN SCHEME AND OTHER LANGUAGES ARE TOO DIFFICULT TO ME"?

Seriously, get a life, people.

>>1

OP doesn't understand that this is the most worthless board on all the chans ever made.  Even more worthless than /a/, if you can believe it.

>>1
Keep reordering those instructions, one pipeline is busy!!!

After reading SICP, you will achieve Satori. Let's compare how you think before and after with a simple example problem: factorial of 10.

Before SICP: OMG lots of expensive instructions. Let's write an iterative version which is faster. We need 32 bit integers. Consider paralel multiplication using SIMD? Let's set the counter from 10 so upon decreasing we have the NZ flag set and we save a comparison! Lol this one is going to rock. 30 minutes later, you obtain the result.

After SICP: Factorial of 10: folding/reducing * for 2..10. It is equal to x.

Implementation is not important. You don't need to implement it. You are perfectly satisfied with the procedure running in your mind and obtaining a result which you will call x and operate with it as necessary. You have trascended the mortal concrete world and can visualize every part of the process in your mind in a fraction of a second. In fact, you already visualized it before you were asked the question. You already visualized every possible process. You sit, relax and meditate on the process which created the Universe.

>>9
I don't really understand your point. Just because something takes long(er) to program, it's inherently bad? Because you can express a procedure in a minimum amount of verbosity, it's somehow better?

You Satori people are indeed a strange bunch. Very strange.

Just because something takes long(er) to program, it's inherently bad? Because you can express a procedure in a minimum amount of verbosity, it's somehow better?
yes, that pretty much sums it up. what do you gain with verbosity?

>>10
It's not as much about verbosity as it's about worrying about stupid implementation details, prematurely optimizing, etc. Before reading SICP, you wonder if your compiler will do this or that, you're deeply worried that data might be misaligned, you go 3 Km out of your way to save 1 CPU cycle, etc. You come up with shit code and waste time. After SICP, you write it, or not even write it; you just think about it and that will be enough to satisfy your needs.

Code doesn't matter. In the end, all that matters is the final result. Non-Satori programmers make interesting things. Satori programmers, if they even exist, don't make anything interesting to make use of their "enlightenment" and when they do write it is slow-ass code.

>After reading SICP, you will achieve Satori.

I'll pass on joining your cult, thanks.

>>13
look what you 'Satori' faggots did, this potential EXPERT BBCODE PROGRAMMER is now NOT going to read SICP thanks to your faggotry.

>>13
Amateur, teenage programmer. You go tell your boss code doesn't matter, and unless you're an underpaid bottom end junior programmer in Accenture and shit companies like that, you gonna get scolded. Also, I hope I never have to fix your shit.

Non-Satori programmers make interesting things.
Such as inline assembler tidbits for initialization routines, or a hack that xors certain memory addresses to get faster pseudo-random numbers?

Satori programmers, if they even exist, don't make anything interesting to make use of their "enlightenment" and when they do write it is slow-ass code.
How the fuck are you claiming facts over people you don't even believe they exist?

No, they don't write slow-ass code. Sure, it's not OMG OPTIMIZED, and they cannot apply slick CFLAGS because they don't write C except if strictly necessary. But I bet most programmers who have achieved Satori can write faster performing code than you do for non-trivial tasks, because even if you write your amateur algorithms in assembly, they are worse quality than spells from anybody who knows their thing, and work less intelligently. It's like the fastest runner in the world and an old Eastern guru with a long beard. Only they are in a labyrinth. And the fastest runner in the world is blind.

Moreover, there's cost. As an amateur, you only care about hardware, but once programming is about getting paid, there's another cost to consider which is development cost, which is far higher than the fastest server, so you'll prefer to buy a big server and pay a smarter programmer to do in two months the work of 6 less bright programmers over a year.

Finally, consider Lisp compilers can be faster than some C++ compilers. For computationally-intensive applications, Python with Psyco performs great. There's a specializing compiler for Scheme, too.

I don't blame you for being OMG OPTIMIZED and worrying about your precious code. Back when I was not an EXPERT PROGRAMMER, back when I was an amateur kiddy who wrote C programs using conio.h, I was like that.

But then I got tired of wasting my time. I realized I was wasting so much time on my crap, which if written as quickly as possible they would still run in very reasonable time on my computer. And I got a job. And my employer did not feel like paying me four months for the work I could do in one, because we have more big servers than applications we have to use their power. And I read SICP. And I realized I needed to optimize my brain, not my code.

You are forgetting that most programmers are neither Satori Programmers nor OMG OPTIMIZED C Programmers, but Enterprise Java Programmers.

is dis sum miral varketing for allegro cl

| It's like the fastest runner in the world and an old Eastern guru with a long beard. Only they are in a labyrinth. And the fastest runner in the world is blind.

Fastest runner in the world touches left wall, starts running. Guru sits and ponders what it would be like to be out of the labyrinth.

Runner wins.

UH OH

#############  #
#              #
#  ##########  #
#  ##########  #
#  ##########  #
#   start ->   #
################

>>19
Exactly! You've shown in a very graphical manner how >>18 is wrong. Runner does something fast, but he does something stupid. Guru first thinks, then acts. He may act slowly, but he does the least work, and gets it done first.

UH OH

#############  #
#              #
################
#              #
#  ##########  #
#   start ->   #
################

>>21 is not touring complete

>>22
GOTO or GTFO

>>20
Fastest runner in world is not retarded. After going around once he realizes he's going in a loop and touches other wall.

Just because he's not an EXPERT BBCODE PROGRAMMER doesn't mean he's so stupid he won't realize he's going in a circle, even though he's blind.

>>24
Fastest runner in world is not retarded. After going around once he realizes he's going in a loop and touches other wall.
You can fool that algorithm with a maze like:

┌─────────┐
│ □ □ □ □ │
│ □ □.□ □ │
│ □ □ □ □ │
│ □ □ □ □ │
└─────────┘

(I'm expert Unicode programmer BTW)

Retarded algorithms will always fail or perform worse. Even if they seem to be executing fast.

>>25
Okay, that maze had no solution and the runner was too small, so let's redo it:

┌─────────┐
│ □ □ □ □ │
│ □ □☻□ □ │
│ □ □ □ □ │
│ □ □ □ □ │
└───────┤├┘

Notice the running man is a nigger. They run fast.

>>26
Simple, then if you've determined a wall to be a closed loop mark it as "visited" so you wind up visiting a different wall until you wind up in the outer one and escape.

Meanwhile, the guru is still thinking about the exact proportions of his tulips at home because he's LOL SATORI.

EXPERT PROGRAMMERS can use C just fine.  They can understand low-level code.  Being able to write low level code that is controlled by high level programs is the way to REAL ULTIMATE POWER.  Implementation is fucking important.  It's just that development time, flexibility, debugging, reuse, etc are all parts of the implementation process.

Also, SICP is a beginner's book.

Evolution of a Satori programmer:

-Programmer enters college.
-Programmer reads SICP.
-Programmer misses the main point of SICP: that your code be optimized at all levels, high AND low.
-College figures that any retard can figure out how to optimize high-level code and teaches the Programmer skills that aren't immediately obvious to most of their students.
-Programmer graduates, gets a job.
-Programmer gets his first assignment: writing a sort method.
-Applying what he learned in college without even stopping to think and plan, writes a selection sort in assembly.
-Programmer is fired.
-Programmer finally catches on and realizes that high-level optimization is important, and remembers the last time he heard about it in college was in Programming 101 with SICP because the college assumed their students would remember that lesson throughout college.
-Programmer re-reads SICP.
-Programmer finally relearns that lesson.
-Programmer views low-level optimization as a waste of time.
-Programmer lands crappy job after showing off his quicksort written in scheme.
-Programmer learns to resent programming because he sucks at it and spends his days crying at home at how his life turned out.
-Friends find out. Programmer tells friends he meditates to cover up the fact that he's crying. Just kidding, the Satori programmer has no friends.

Evolution of a non-Satori programmer:
-Programmer enters college.
-Programmer takes Programming 101 and reads SICP.
-Programmer learns and remembers the concept of high-level optimization.
-Programmer goes on to learn low-level optimization and master both skills.
-Programmer lands a job showing off his quicksort written in assembly.
-Programmer maintains successful career, starts a family, lives comfortably, and programs games for fun in his free time.

premature optimization is the root of all evil
remember WHO said that.

>>27
Simple, then if you've determined a wall to be a closed loop mark it as "visited" so you wind up visiting a different wall until you wind up in the outer one and escape.
Yet another failure. You continue to amuse me. Even if you mark walls as visited, you may run into a loop if you get in the center of 9 looping walls, all marked visited, with the central one marked last, for example. The OMG OPTIMIZED version of this algorithm sure runs fast... and it's buggy as hell.

Ever heard of back-fucking-tracking with mark to avoid loops? That'd be any Satori progammer's first idea, the starting point to think of the best algorithm for this situation.

By now the guru is already out of the labyrinth, walking around the world to illuminate people with SICP.

>>28
Also, SICP is a beginner's book.
SICP is Alpha and Omega
The beginning and the end
The first and the last.

>>29
Lol, in your dreams.

Evolution of a Satori programmer:
- Programmer reads K&R and SICP
- Programmer completely misunderstands SICP
- Programmer thinks Scheme sucks, C rocks
- Programmer learns assembly
- Programmer writes OMG OPTIMIZED code in C with inline assembly
- Programmer gets old, needs a house and a life
- Programmer gets a job
- Employer, as stupid as he may be, realizes programmer is more expensive than hardware, and orders him to stop the OMG OPTIMIZED nonsense
- Programmer discovers abstraction
- Programmer gets lazy, a good quality of a programmer
- Programmer now works in XYZ, and thinks C is a pain in the ass
- Programmer reads about SICP in world4ch
- Programmer re-reads SICP
- Programmer finally understands SICP, receives enlightenment
- Programmer no longer needs to program, but he does for the job, or to get something done in many awesome ways he never believed possible, with 1/5 the code, in 1/10 the time, performing even better than his amateur OMG OPTIMIZED C/asm hacks did most of the times due to superior algorithms and spiritual
- Programmer is now Satori programmer

SICP is a beginner's book. You cannot learn useful things from it.

>>29
Is that even relevant to this thread, or is it just your way of saying "I've re-read SICP"?

wat is program?

WARNING: THIS POST CONTAINS EXPERT BBCODE PROGRAMMING

Yet another failure. You continue to amuse me. Even if you mark walls as visited, you may run into a loop if you get in the center of 9 looping walls, all marked visited, with the central one marked last, for example. The OMG OPTIMIZED version of this algorithm sure runs fast... and it's buggy as hell.

Ah, but it would use a stack, so if it would up in that situation, it would backtrack and try every wall it passes on the way.

Surely that is enough?

Programmer no longer needs to program, but he does for the job, or to get something done in many awesome ways he never believed possible, with 1/5 the code, in 1/10 the time, performing even better than his amateur OMG OPTIMIZED C/asm hacks did most of the times due to superior algorithms and spiritual

Yeah, except the vast majority of programmers learned this lesson back in CS 101 and are masters of both high-level abstraction and low-level optimization, always using the former and applying the latter when necessary to make his code run even faster than yours. And he does it without attaching any spiritual nonsense or cult-like militancy to it.

Look, just because you used to be a moron who didn't appreciate high-level optimization (you know, what you've been calling abstraction; it's just the exact same thing on another level) doesn't mean that very programmer who bothers with assembly is. I find it the height of arrogance to declare that anyone who hasn't read your book is a moron who would write a selection sort in assembly. I am not the blind, retarded fastest runner in the world. I am an intelligent, 20/20 vision fastest runner in the world, who doesn't even need low-level optimization to keep up with you, and uses it if he needs to pass you.

I'm not a moron. I can write high-level optimized code. I know how to organize a program so I don't have to waste time searching and sorting every cycle. Just because I write optimized C when I need that extra little boost doesn't mean I suck at programming in general. And yes, I still program in my spare time.

>>35
Ha ha ha. Oh wow.

>>36
Ah yes, I see your point.

>>35
Surely that is enough?
Yes, you came up with a working approach on your god damn fourth attempt. Now let's see if the implementation complexity is as good as the guru, who has been out of the labyrinth for ages, and is now envisioning algorithms for self-reprogrammable labyrinth creator machines.

high-level abstraction and low-level optimization
The later is often opposite to the former, and in the cases where it's not opposite, it has a minimal impact.

I know how to organize a program so I don't have to waste time searching and sorting every cycle.
I don't waste time searching and sorting every cycle, because I don't actually write any programs in a computer. All the processes and every possible alternative occur in my mind instantly, without iteration, and their result is yielded in constant time in a generic expression I need not simplify.

Just because I write optimized C when I need that extra little boost doesn't mean I suck at programming in general.
What do you use when you don't "need that extra little boost" nobody needs?

And he does it without attaching any spiritual nonsense or cult-like militancy to it.
Okay, hint: I hope you realize I'm trolling you with this Satori meme, do you? I believe in what I've said, minus the spirituality.

>>38
>I don't actually know how to write code, but I like to think I'm amazing anyway.

Fixed.

[QUOTE]Yes, you came up with a working approach on your god damn fourth attempt.[/QUOTE]

So I wrote a program and got it working after only four compile/runs? That's called "above average." Meanwhile, we're just assuming that your guru simply teleported himself out with SATORI MAGIC.

[QUOTE]I don't waste time searching and sorting every cycle, because I don't actually write any programs in a computer. All the processes and every possible alternative occur in my mind instantly, without iteration, and their result is yielded in constant time in a generic expression I need not simplify.[/QUOTE]

So you're useless, is what you're saying. You can't write code because you can't be assed.

[QUOTE]What do you use when you don't "need that extra little boost" nobody needs?[/QUOTE]

The exact same thing you do, I just don't act like an arrogant dick about it and claim everyone who knows how to use optimized C with inline assembly is a moron. I'm not a fan of Scheme but I do use abstraction in other languages.

[QUOTE]Okay, hint: I hope you realize I'm trolling you with this Satori meme, do you? I believe in what I've said, minus the spirituality.[/QUOTE]

I realize that, but you keep reuting my arguments with moronic shit like "NO REASON TO WORRY ABOUT BIG OH EXCECUTION TIME IN MY BRAIN LOL!"

So you're hired to write a scientific calculator app, and you just tell your boss "LOL NO NEED TO DO THAT, I CAN JUST DO IT IN MY HEAD LOL!"

>>40
Now that's just embarrassing.

>>40
So I wrote a program and got it working after only four compile/runs?
No, you didn't even write it, you just wanted to prove how simple an algorithm that was and failed for three times.

we're just assuming that your guru simply teleported himself out with SATORI MAGIC.
Actually, it's not that the guru teleported himself. It's simply that he exists everywhere at the same time, because he has achieved Satori.

So you're useless, is what you're saying. You can't write code because you can't be assed.
Lol.

The exact same thing you do, I just don't act like an arrogant dick about it and claim everyone who knows how to use optimized C with inline assembly is a moron. I'm not a fan of Scheme but I do use abstraction in other languages.
I'll ask again: What do you use when you don't "need that extra little boost" nobody needs?

I'm starting to think you still use C.

NO REASON TO WORRY ABOUT BIG OH EXCECUTION TIME IN MY BRAIN LOL!
My brain runs any algorithm in O(1) time and space, because I don't run it, I meta-run it. But when I *need* to implement it, I implement the most efficient one, with the most favourable O() time and space.

So you're hired to write a scientific calculator app, and you just tell your boss "LOL NO NEED TO DO THAT, I CAN JUST DO IT IN MY HEAD LOL!"
I don't get paid to write trivial things, but if I'm paid to I'll write anything. Heh, a couple of weeks ago I had a bit of spare time at work and I just went and implemented yet another Lisp dialect, in Python, with lexical scoping (not using the language's own) and tail call optimization. How's that for a scientific calculator?

>>40
To quote, prefix any line with GREATER-THAN SIGN and SPACE.

>>43
To quote, prefix any line with GREATER-THAN SIGN and SPACE.

How else will we identify that noob?

I've written an program to calculate the optical properties of solar cells by combining a coherent and and incoherent approach.
Now to calculate the absorption in the active layer as a function of active layer thickness and by forehand i knew that it is best done by summing over wavelength and then over distance from one boundary of the active layer.
This is theoretically the best and fastest solution, so i implemented it.
The other way around would have been considerably slower.
So i either achieved satori without knowing or this whole satori business is a load of crock and i'm better off visiting Japan next month and enjoy the meganekko there.

No, you didn't even write it, you just wanted to prove how simple an algorithm that was and failed for three times.

The first one would have worked for most maze generation algorithms. The second and third were me having the right idea but not explaining it well enough.

Actually, it's not that the guru teleported himself. It's simply that he exists everywhere at the same time, because he has achieved Satori.

"Satori" is just Japanese for "mastery". How does mastery over programming help him transcend reality? I call bullshit. You're cheating, really; this "game" of yours proves nothing.

Lol.

I see your point.

>I'll ask again: What do you use when you don't "need that extra little boost" nobody needs? I'm starting to think you still use C.

Actually, I very rarely have to write in C. Most of the time I use either Java, or C++/C#. It's just what's required for most projects, so I go with it. I know, someone who's all LOL C INLINE ASSEMBLY would use a language like Java? Unthinkable.

... [omitted] ... How's that for a scientific calculator?

That's pretty cool, to be honest... but I thought you didn't "need" to program anything outside of work for food so you can meditate?


I know what you're thinking. "LOL HE DOESN'T USE JAVA, THAT'S TO SLOW FOR HIM" and "THERE'S NO WAY HE HAD REALLY FIGURED OUT THE MAZE THING ON THE SECOND GO." Well, here, look at this thing I made a couple years back that I managed to dig up on my hard drive:

http://zenixstudios.com/f.php?f=jorbzjqus

A maze generator and solver in Java. And I didn't even use the wall technique for solving it. Back then I hated making GUI's so when the frame appears just click it to generate the maze, then click it again to solve it. I am NOT a moron (even if I don't know BBCode)

Just FYI, a Satori Programmer would not even require to write code most of the time, because he would be an Virtuoso programmer. A true expert, usually hired as consultants by businesses. His job?

Instruct and plan software design and implementation details, leave the coding to the lowly paid script monkeys and occasionally write a few routines if the result is not satisfactory.

Yes, these guys are highly paid.

I am a C programmer, albeit I'm currently trying to learn Java, not the language itself mind you but the XBOX HUEG library. Java's libraries were meant to simplify programming, now I'm going around hunting down various Objects and their methods just like programming in raw Win32.

I hate forced OOP, then again I'm only an amature programmer, maybe one day I'll see that Java is worth the time. A friend of mind recently completed a project for a company in Java, so that may be the future.

SCALABLE ENTERPRISE SOLUTIONS, his file tree was massive.

>>46
hi, i'm not the guy you were discussing with.
a few words of advice:
* stop trying to defend your intelligence, it makes you look like a moron. If you really think you're smart, there is no need for you to defend it. If you need to prove your smartness to /prog/, you've already failed, because:
* java sucks. Pick up a better language. It's a language aimed at the average programmer, not to the good one. The Java designers (like, say, GS jr.) probably write their little programs in their other, better, languages, which assume their programmers are pretty good. Like say, Common Lisp.

>>46
"Satori" is just Japanese for "mastery". How does mastery over programming help him transcend reality? I call bullshit. You're cheating, really; this "game" of yours proves nothing.
You are a great source for copypasta.

Actually, I very rarely have to write in C. Most of the time I use either Java, or C++/C#. It's just what's required for most projects, so I go with it. I know, someone who's all LOL C INLINE ASSEMBLY would use a language like Java? Unthinkable.
Lol Java

That's pretty cool, to be honest... but I thought you didn't "need" to program anything outside of work for food so you can meditate?
It was an exercise in meditation as well, just I was bored and needed to do something, so I was planning on creating an infinite loop of Python hosting Lisp hosting Python hosting Lisp... I wrote the first Lisp, then my time ran out and I imagined the rest.


>>47
Java's libraries were meant to simplify programming
Only they managed to overcomplicate it by being bloated, overengineered and overstructured, and make you hate this business. They are the worst big libraries I know.

maybe one day I'll see that Java is worth the time
It's not, read SICP and learn Lisp. If you find Lisp less practical, after you've read SICP, learn Python, Ruby, Lua, or similars.

It's not, read SICP and learn Lisp. If you find Lisp less practical, after you've read SICP, learn Python, Ruby, Lua, or similars.
Then again it's easy to get a job with Java, like it or not. Elsewhere I agree.

Satori-level joke: My other car is a cdr. HURR HURR DRRRRRRRRRRR~

>>50
It's also easy to get a job as janitor, that doesn't mean you should do it.

People die when they are killed.

>>52
yeah, but java jobs pay better than janitor jobs.

>>54
Yeah, but as a janitor, at least you can help people. As a Java programmer, you are only making the world a more ENTERPRISE to be.

Java

Is

Evil

I agree with >>55.

The janitor analogy was a poor choice on my side, because what janitors do is the inverse of what Java DEVELOPERS do.

Hey, you know, you work in whatever language you need to. I wrote that maze program mostly to help refresh the Java I learned in college for a Java project I had to do. I offered no opinions on Java; I simply used it because I thought it was LOL HIGH-LEVEL ABSTRACT enough for you.

>>55
>>59
are you kidding me? I HATE janitors, they are the worst people ever. Most of them like to fancy themselves as big, important people, but they're a bunch of retards with no power over anything in their fucking lives. They just like to pretend.

It was a great analogy!

>>61
This man is a real Java programmer

>>62
I don't program in java, but if I had to program it for a living, I would.
In my job I'm now programming in PL/SQL, which may be worse if you think it for a second.

>>61 has never met a janitor and is basing his 'experience' on the Janitor from Scrubs.

Janitor from Scrubs.
who?

>>60
I offered no opinions on Java; I simply used it because I thought it was LOL HIGH-LEVEL ABSTRACT enough for you.
Java is a low-level language. Mid-level at best, if we count its obnoxious library.

>>66
java is high level idiot

>>67
JVM assembly is higher level than java.

>>66
Java is high-level. Shut the fuck up.

>>66
Java is high-level you stupid fucktard

Java is enterprise-level

"High level" is a rather ill-defined term, but Java ain't it. I agree with >>66: it's mid-level at best.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is... uh... clueless. Sorry. :(

>>72
java is high level, lol
stop this stupid troll.

>>74
Learn what "high-level" is. Java isn't. Mid-level, maybe.

>>40
fails at bbcode

>>74
java is a high level langauge lol

LISP

Bampu
        Pantsu~

Drawing is way to make porn

Nothing more.

I've just read through the thread from start to last.  I don't even remember what it was about off the top of my head anymore.

>>1 has not read SICP