My threads on /b/ about 9/11 go 404 really fast. So I decided I'll write here.
What do you think about 9/11 conspiracy?
Before you answer, please go to TPB, search for "Loose Change American Coup", download the documentary and watch it.
First I've seen first version of this film in 2007. Then I've seen 2nd and 3rd edition (American Coup). I think I'm sane. But after the facts (the facts that was even broadcasted on that day, the facts that everybody can search on internet) about conspiracy are much more accurate than those served by news.
Also if you dig into NIST investigation, you'll find that it intentionally omit facts/witnesses (like Barry Jennings who was in WTC7 before it collapsed and was captured by news when he got out from WTC7 on 9/11). This year they released final report on 9/11. They claim they can't explain fall of WTC7 but they also note that they didn't considered bombs (Barry said he heard bombs all the time).
I think I'm one of 1000000 who believe this. What do you think?
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Anonymous2011-07-07 0:15
One more thing: regarding the plane in Pennsylvania ... google news from 9/11 about it. All reporters said that day that there are no signs of plane crash. In fact there was just a big hole on the ground. Yet, news claim that "someone" found passports of some muslim on that place and even movie was made about it ... I encourage you to watch the documentary ...
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Anonymous2011-07-07 0:51
There's probably something going on here, and it's more complex than what the OP is describing. It's easy to say that the government did it, but it was probably a more choreographed incident.
I don't believe the government did it because why would they file intelligence reports in advance that would hint at something they were going to do?
They were probably on the tail of something, but never really caught up with in time. That's what I think. It wasn't the government.
My belief is that it was done by some sort of shadowy underground agency that had money, resources and influence in the media. Not the illuminati or whatever the fuck else.
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Anonymous2011-07-07 1:10
If they have that kind of power why don't they just kill all the journalists who have discovered their diabolical plan?
Regarding WTC7: Maybe the destruction of twin towers was directed from there (just a speculation, however I don't buy the official version of twin towers falling because of fuel).
Regarding whole event: In second edition of Loose Change, they mention "some gov. document from DoD" about "improving US army by fighting war on 2 fronts". This was supposedly made in 2000. However I didn't dig deeper so it can be fake. But if it's not, it just fits reality. The other benefits are transfer of armed forces closer to "real enemies" (cough ... communist China .. cough, and maybe Russia but I'd rather see them as friends) and of course oil.
If you browse through loosechange911.com or ask on a forum (same site) I bet they'll provide more info (maybe I will).
Also I encourage to watch 2nd edition of that movie. While "American Coup" is more recent it was made partly because NBC, CNN, ... threatened authors about copyright so they had to remove something. There's a little more information in 2nd edition.
Note: Movie was made about it! => Public acknowledges plane crashed here. Yet it was clear on 9/11 that no plane crashed here. But because "some official" found passport of some muslim passenger here, it's now officially truth and clear evidence that muslims did it :/
All those mysteries was seen by eyes or was presented to public by media. But of course media didn't cover it. They covered only "official" statements.
I admit I'm a bit sceptical about it. If that was really plan of government then they fucked it up a bit. It served the purpose (war on terror, phone tapping, majority of people raging for war and supporting government). But what about those other mysteries? Why NIST didn't proper investigation? If it wasn't government then indeed it was some super secret underground agency which owns whole government.
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Anonymous2011-07-07 8:33
>>1
The biggest problem I have with these conspiracy theories is how many people it would take to pull off. Suppose there is some shadow agency. Who would staff it? US soldiers? Why haven't there been any defectors? Wouldn't someone have doubts at some point and blow the whistle?
US military use principle of least privilege since WW2 (search "Multi-level security", "Separation of duty", RBAC, all of this was developed after WW2). It was made to cover up research secrets about atom bomb and radio proximity fuses (anti-air). In MLS, there need to be only small group of people with all privileges (= knowledge).
Please, download "Loose Change" (2nd or 3rd edition) and see what media doesn't cover. We can talk about it then. Also if you're lazy see at least youtube links in 7 and 8.
Let's say 100 peoples more or less knew this secrets. I think it's manageable assuming all are well paid. And more of them know less. If the plan succeeds you get whole nation on your side. Then hurry up and exhaust all you can from it (this fits perfectly). Then laugh at people like me because no-one cares because believing in something is so easy while disputing is so boring.
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Anonymous2011-07-07 11:41
>>10
Yes, exactly. Do we really believe that "they" are THIS good? I definitely think there is a lot that's fishy... but I mainly think that it is the US government trying to cover their ass for major incompotence.
How do you explain WTC fall? Steel cannot melt down by fire from. How could they find undamaged passport of muslim passenger in Manhattan (you've seen the fire after plane hit the building right?). How could they find undamaged passport (and other muslim stuff) of muslim passenger in Pennsylvania when there wasn't even jet engine? Have you watched video in 8? How can someone claim that plane crashed there? Why & how did WTC7 fall? It got absolutely no damage from twin towers fall. Buildings under twin towers was so fucked up but they kept staying. WTC7 was far away and fell with acceleration 9.81 m/s^2. Why did BBC reported WTC7 fall 15 minutes before it fell? Why Berry says he heard bombs in WTC7 all the time? Why was steel under twin towers in liquid form (it's recorded on thermal images from NASA) ?
How do you explain WTC fall? Steel cannot melt down by fire from. How could they find undamaged passport of muslim passenger in Manhattan (you've seen the fire after plane hit the building right?). How could they find undamaged passport (and other muslim stuff) of muslim passenger in Pennsylvania when there wasn't even jet engine? Have you watched video in 8? How can someone claim that plane crashed there? Why & how did WTC7 fall? It got absolutely no damage from twin towers fall. Buildings under twin towers was so fucked up but they kept staying. WTC7 was far away and fell with acceleration 9.81 m/s^2. Why did BBC reported WTC7 fall 15 minutes before it fell? Why Berry says he heard bombs in WTC7 all the time? Why was steel under twin towers in liquid form (it's recorded on thermal images from NASA) ?
In defense both G.W. Bush and Condoleezza Rice claimed something like "How could we expect such attack"? In fact, twin towers was built to get over hit with Boeing 707 which has almost same size as Boeing 767. Also on that day all planes for defense was sent far away for training (by the time dispatcher lost controls with planes, no military jets were available). What a coincidence.
Q: Hello.
A: Hello.
Q: And who do we have with us this evening?
A: Vupoori
Q: And where do you transmit through?
A: Cassiopaea.
Q: We have a series of questions about this recent event. Was the attack on the World Trade Center undertaken by Moslem Terrorists?
A: No.
Q: Who was behind this attack?
A: Israel.
Q: Is it going to become known that it was Israel? Will they be exposed?
A: Yes.
Q: Is this the event that is going to lead to the destruction of Israel?
A: Yes.
Q: Is the god worshipped in Judaism, Yahwah, really Howah, the Pig God?
A: Yes.
Q: Are there going to be further terrorist attacks in the US next week as others have been predicting?
A: No.
Q: Are there going to be further terrorist attacks of this kind at any time in the near future in the U.S.?
A: No.
Q: Is this the beginning of WW III?
A: No.
Q: Is the US. Going to bomb Afghanistan?
A: Possible in future.
Q: Well, you say there aren't going to be any further attacks; can we believe you?
A: Up to you.
Q: (A) You say that Israel will be exposed; in what time perspective?
A: Month {before first hints emerge.}
Q: Expose Israel? How?
A: Yes, open. Perhaps sooner.
Q: (A) What mistake did they make?
A: Infiltrated.
Q: (A) They seem to be so smart with their god behind them, and they did such a big thing, only to make a mistake. (L) I guess we can only wait to see how it turns out. It's a spooky idea. What do countries do when something like that is discovered and they have had a long-term diplomatic relationship? They talk to each other, they pat each other on the back. What do they do? It's like having to get a divorce when everybody thought you had such a happy marriage. And when it's like this? It's like having to get a divorce after discovering that your partner has murdered your children and buried them in the back yard. (A) Yeah, but it's not so clear, because when you say "Israel," it's not one thing. There are different parties, different factions, they are fighting. We don't know.
A: Gore is pushing buttons on Capitol Hill.
Q: What does Gore have to do with anything? He lost the election. Well... (A) He had this Lieberman as his running mate. He was in bed with Jews. What kind of buttons? Huh. (L) Is he pushing buttons to expose?
A: To suppress.
Q: Well, that's the damnedest thing I ever heard. Did the U.S. Government shoot down the fourth plane as some people are suggesting?
A: Yes.
Q: Did the United States know about this attack at any time in advance of it? Did any of our people in any position to do anything, know?
A: No.
Q: Were they blindsided?
A: No. But not expecting.
Q: (A) So, they knew it was going to happen, but they didn't know when and what exactly? Is that it?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it truly a "failure of intelligence?"
A: Yes.
Q: So, the infiltrator must have learned something, but wasn't in on the whole thing?
A: Close.
Q: (A) What is the most probable scenario. There were infiltrators, they had some knowledge, and they communicated this knowledge to some part of Intelligence, but this part of Intelligence did not press to communicate it to the higher parties?
A: Yes. And it was not known plan.
Q: So the infiltrator did not know the specific plan. So, they overstepped. Hubris. (A) Which part of Israel government was behind it? (L) Probably some deep level orthodox bunch like Kochav.
A: Yes.
Q: (A) But they killed a lot of Jews. (L) They don't care. Jews killed a lot of Jews in WW II. Hubris.
A: Greed.
Q: (L) Are they going to be able to recover anything from my hard drive?
A: No.
Q: What happened to my hard drive?
A: 4th Density STS.
Q: They're really after that Noah book, aren't they?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, I'm saying stuff in there that's needed to be said for a long time. Are we going to survive until we get it printed?
A: Yes.
Q: How are we going to survive?
A: It will become evident.
Q: I hope it becomes evident soon because we are getting to the end of the reserve period.
A: Yes. Money will come soon.
Q: Okay, what is causing this prolonged rainstorm. Besides the fact that it is a tropical system, it sure is sitting on top of us for a long time.
A: 4th density battle.
Q: (A) Is there anything that we should take precaution about that is not on our mind like the one that killed our hard drive?
A: Failsafe awareness.
Q: Why are my ankles swelling so much?
A: Sitting.
Q: (A) Fourteen hours a day, non-stop, both of us. (L) I guess if we took one hour a day to do exercise... Anything else that we need to be aware of... (A) On our website, we have entered a kind of political stream which attracts attention. Going into this is natural and automatic. But there may be other not-so-natural things that may not come to our minds. Anything additional we need to cover?
A: You will become famous.
Q: (L) Well, I am assuming that I ought NOT to put on the website that Israel is behind this attack, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Was this guy writing these posts on the newsgroups the same as Sollog, the so-called prophet?
A: Yes.
Q: Is he involved with the Israelis?
A: No.
Q: How did he know about this event?
A: Fourth Density STS contact.
Q: Is this another instance of when they can be stunningly accurate when they choose?
A: Yes.
Q: So, this guy was not an insider in the plot?
A: No.
Q: Well, I find that hard to believe.
A: Patience.
Q: Was he being set up to look accurate so people would buy into his rant?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, Sollog did predict that this would happen in 1997. But then, then, the guy on the newsgroup predicted that something was going to happen in seven days... That was bizarre. He didn't say what, but the message was headed with 9/11. If he had known what was going to happen, I think he would have at least hinted. (A) But that would be too dangerous for him.
A: Yes. More like a miss.
Q: How did they get those guys to agree to fly those buildings into those planes and commit suicide?
A: Mind control.
Q: I guess that's it for tonight.
A: Good night.
"Your government orchestrated 9/11 so they could make big base in middle east with a lot of oil resources and all people will support them".
If you don't care, don't post in this thread. If you care, see the evidence first. What's so hard to understand?
Now I'm expecting Navy SEALs ringing... breaching my doors.
By the way, I love America. You freed my country from Nazis, though you didn't freed us from commies. But I know that would probably involve nuclear war.
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Anonymous2011-07-07 12:50
troll thread?
troll thread.
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Anonymous2011-07-07 13:11
You know there's a hundred proofs against Israel and still none against Bin Laden who of course disappeared without leaving a trace.
People think it's 'smart' to doubt anything you will say, but they never doubt TV, and still call themselves 'skeptics'.
You will never find someone countering your arguments against Israel without laughing like a retard because that's who they are...
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Anonymous2011-07-07 13:14
>If they have that kind of power why don't they just kill all the journalists who have discovered their diabolical plan?
Troll or stupid ?
It would be fucking obvious if they killed the ones who discovered the truth, they'd rather ridicule them, calling them "tin foil hats" etc.
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Anonymous2011-07-07 13:15
>>19 >>23
Apologize. World is indeed hell. Sorry for shouting here like retard.
I know shit about Israel.
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102011-07-07 13:48
>>11
So only a few people working on the project know the full scope of it? That would work to keep it a secret during the time it was being done but not after. Almost anyone involved would be able to put two and two together once the towers fell. And like I said, wouldn't at least one of those people blow the whistle? It's been almost ten years now.
>>12
I agree that it's possible. It just seems very unlikely to me. These movies present what looks like evidence but none of it amounts to proof. I have yet to see anything conclusive coming from your camp so I see no reason to belive them.
This article is based on WTC7 final 120 page NIST report. So no investigation here. This is the report http://issuu.com/jfkii/docs/nicstar1a.pdf (TOC is on page 19).
That depends. If you work for intelligence and leak some data I think you won't end up good. Also seniors can simply reject what you say. And since you don't know whole truth (say, you were asked to throw a passport on the grass at the night for $1000) you can be considered fool unless you force a lot of people on your side. But TBH I don't know any illuminati traitor.
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Anonymous2011-07-07 15:05
>So only a few people working on the project know the full scope of it? That would work to keep it a secret during the time it was being done but not after. Almost anyone involved would be able to put two and two together once the towers fell. And like I said, wouldn't at least one of those people blow the whistle? It's been almost ten years now.
That depends. If you work for intelligence and leak some data I think you won't end up good. Also seniors can simply reject what you say. And since you don't know whole truth (say, you were asked to throw a passport on the grass at the night for $1000) you can be considered fool unless you force a lot of people on your side. But TBH I don't know any illuminati traitor.
>I agree that it's possible. It just seems very unlikely to me. These movies present what looks like evidence but none of it amounts to proof. I have yet to see anything conclusive coming from your camp so I see no reason to belive them.
They had Barry before he passed. How many proofs you have? Articles like ^? I posted some sites too.
This article is based on WTC7 final 120 page NIST report. So no investigation here. This is the report http://issuu.com/jfkii/docs/nicstar1a.pdf (TOC is on page 19).
No offense. I admit I didn't dig enough into both sides.
The conspiracy side is easy to understand but it mostly presents comparisons to other events while official side is long NIST (=boring) research papers (finished after 10 years). They're probably some scientists who acknowledge it. But there are also scientists on conspiracy side. How can you tell which are good or bad? I bet those papers are made so long and so boring intentionally.
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Anonymous2011-07-07 15:19
>>31
>implying your tl;dr mentality is not only warranted but proof of a conspiracy.
I posted twice. Fisrt with bad links to my previous posts. I'm not used to citate.
>You sure post enough of them.
Lol. Nothing compared to NIST report.
Once I read a book about authorization from NIST employees (I hate them, they're proud of their software patents). There was some things they mentioned 4x in every chapter. I'm sure half of it was made to increase number of pages.
In NIST report page with number 1 starts at page 40. First 40 page are total boring bullshit.
I said I'm not going to shout here. From now on I'm in the middle till I dig deeper. I think you're there too.
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Anonymous2011-07-07 15:34
I tend to not believe in the conspiracy because it would be difficult to impossible to pull off.
* I actually did some maths on the amount of time needed to plant the bombs -- I got something like 10 people could do it in 8 hours. It's a long time to have people in a building, especially considering the survailance and cleaning people who are in most office buildings overnight. No one has come forward with reports of strange people in the building.
* Related -- most explosive demolitions require that that bombs be placed directly on the supports (and in some cases the supports themselves must be cut. I seems absurd to suggest people ripping out walls and cutting steel beams and leaving zero evidence of their presence. Sooner or later someone will notice the holes in the drywall. No one reported holes in the drywall, metal shavings or anything else inside the building.
* The sheer number of people required to make the event come off and keep it a secret is simply staggering.
* per loose change, the flights were switched at some point. This would require two sets of flight crew being aware of the plan *per plane*. Assuming an average flight crew of 3 (pilot, copilot, navigator) that's twelve people. Then you need the ground crew at whatever airport they use to land the planes, as well as the tower crew to clear the takeoffs/landings. Additionally, you need to cooperation of the passengers or a place to dump their bodies.
* the people involved in planning and coordinating such a plan. 9/11 conspiracies are fairly complex, which probably means a good number of planning staff, their personal staffs, and so on. Budgets must be made, materials must be found or bought and people hired to do their bit.
* the people carrying out that event. once all the planning is done, you must find people to do their parts in the plan. Bomb planters, maybe fake cleaning crews to keep the real cleaning crews out, stuff like that. Pilots, copilots, navigators, flight control officers, and their support.
Conservatively, I think that at least 100 people would have to be in on the conspiracy. But then you have to keep not only them but thier cohorts silent. If someone writes and publishes a tell all book or blabbs to the media, it's game over. But having hundreds of people disappear is going to raise questions as well. Yet there are no people coming forward saying that they participated in the largest attack on American soil. Surely someone feels remorse for killing civilians. But no one has ever come forward. not the bomb planters, not the suriving flight crews, no one at the airbase, no one. It seems implausible that 100 people could know that they are personally responsible and not only do their job perfectly, but not feel remorse enough to say something to someone.
The much much simpler way to do this is to have the terrorists attack the towers.
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Anonymous2011-07-07 15:36
>>35 simpler to have the terrorists attack the towers.
Exactly. Why is that so hard to believe? So, so simple.
Now: if you want to bring up whose idea it was, and if the Bushes and Bin Ladens were in cahoots, I'll listen to that.
But this other stuff is just too silly and convoluted.
>The much much simpler way to do this is to have the terrorists attack the towers.
Exactly. Less people, less traitors. I think Bin Laden was official friend of USA before 2001 (I'm too lazy to google, but it was in Fahrenheit 9/11 film, I'm not saying it's good film).
Now imagine Bin Laden was all the time locked up, dead, fucking in Hawaii.
>>29 This article is based on WTC7 final 120 page NIST report. So no investigation here.
Again, I won't address every single point but most (if not all) of the arguments made by "debunkers" don't require that you accept NIST as a valid source.
For example, "steel can't melt from jet fuel" is not proof that the planes couldn't have caused the collapse because steel wouldn't have to melt. Any engineering handbook can verify that steel becomes much weaker at those temperatures.
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Anonymous2011-07-07 17:07
>>29
And as for Barry Jennings, eye witness accounts are terrible sources of information. Especially given that he probably feared for his life at the time.