Workers of the world, unite!

Пролетарии всех стран, соединяйтесь!
全世界无产者联合起来！
Vô sản toàn thế giới, liên hiệp lại!
Proletarier aller Länder, vereinigt euch!
¡Proletarios de todos los países, uní­os!
Proletários de todos os paí­ses, uni-vos!
Világ proletárjai, egyesüljetek!
Kaikkien maiden proletaarit, liittykää yhteen!

Yes

ISLAM

The Chinese and Vietnamese need to be friends with each other more. There some of the few communist countries left.

>>1
Unite against what?

>>4
China tried to invade Vietnam.

They need to be Allies.

>>6
Vietnam should not be allies with China ntil China ceases it's tyrannic oppression of the countries it claims to unify. China should be like europe or the rest of asia or something. Look at europe, many different countries and each country with many different regions and customs. China is like teh evil empyre.

No, the Han Chinese deserve sovereignty over Tibet, Sinkiang, Inner Mongolia, etc.

>>8
no u

sure thing

China sucks, i need to email the chinese government that their government sucks

Dear Chinese government,

You suk.

KTHXBAI

China, Vietnam, North Korea, Laos, and Cuba are the only communist states left in the world and they all hate each other.

>>13
Cuba only hates America and are about as trustworthy of North Korea as the rest of the world.

They're not real communist countries anymore. They lost their ideals and are more nationalist then for a unified workers' world order. Comrades, we must find a way to bring about the perpetual revolution world-wide, and get rid of these borders that divide us!

>>15
It's failed hard for the past 90 years. We should give this naive ideal a miss?

>>16
Democracy failed hard for more than 2000 years after its inception in greece. Sometimes one just have to be patient...

>>17
Do you forget what democracy is? Rule by the people.

Anyway it did work. All societies that value democracy in history have been more just and fair, even if they weren't true democracies. Greece produce Scorates, Plato and Aristotle who would have otherwise been nipped in the bud if Greece valued communism or some other useless fallacious ideal that does absolutely nothing to help stop tyranny.

>>18
Always the tyranny with you libertarian people. May i remind you that Greece had slaves? That in their democracy only free male city-citizens were allowed to vote? Pedophilia were an ideal though, so i guess thats how libertarians define lack of tyranny.
What i meant that it has failed hard is that it took more than 2000 years after its invention to reach a worldwide acceptance. Communism (which in its essence is democratic, ie it strives to eliminate structural barriers for all to enjoy democracy) is just a baby in comparison, but it will prevail in the end.

>>19
Grade A trolling. You are looking only at what liberty failed to prevent instead of looking at what it did. I could say that communism is responsible for the Khmer Rouge Genocide, starvation due to mismanagement and political oppression, but I don't because these are merely instances of where communism failed to prevent tyranny. I instead look at what communism did, which is considerably less than what liberty did in it's primordial stage.

Liberty didn't turn Athens into a utopia overnight, saying that this invalidates liberty is ridiculous. What it did do was prevent psychotic thugs from taking over and replaced them with oligarchs who had some sort of incentive to ensure Athens wasn't a brutal place to live.

What communism would do is strip the middle classes of their power and put it in the pocket of whaytever tyrant is using communism as an ideal to get into power.

2Communism (which in its essence is democratic"
So you need liberty before communism? Right? And if the people aren't convinced communism maybe, just maybe, you should look at why they think communism is a bad idea instead of assuming they are all evil capitalists or intellectually inferior idiots. You do think that thought don't you. That's a communist idea. That everyone is a clean slate and people who know "less" are inferior, religious people, people with different political opinions, babies and children are all inferior to you and deserve less human rights. Is that why you believe certain people don't deserve the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

>>20
"I instead look at what communism did, which is considerably less than what liberty did in it's primordial stage."
Well, since you only compare ideologies after one axis (freedom of making any financial decision you want) of course you fail to see what communism has done. You prolly doesnt see the banning of child labor, labor laws, unions, cheap universal healthcare, extensive public transportation, freedom from religion and family (meaning that through cheap housing you are not forced to live with your parents till you are 30), gender equality etc as merits to communism. You prolly believe that some of the above is are sole to libertarianism but they actually are not, and as a force shaping society the ideology of communism have affected far more people today than this recent libertarianism (and no, the greeks were not libertarians).
And again, is it really trolling to point out that your definition of liberty does not include slave free society with universal suffrage?

What democracy failed at was to create a society that could withstand totalitarianism and corruption. The romans tried even harder, and failed even harder, creating on of the globes most enduring dictatorships.

"What communism would do is strip the middle classes of their power and put it in the pocket of whaytever tyrant is using communism as an ideal to get into power."
You may believe what you will, but just believing is not an argument for anything. As i have pointed out has democracy been used as tool for tyranny far more times than communism.

"So you need liberty before communism?"
No, its the other way around. The slaves need to be freed before they need the right to vote. You believe that everybody that is born has equal opportunity, and just as long as everybodies rights are respected everything will turn out fine for everybody, each person getting what they are prepared to work for and so on. Well, basic premise fails, equal oppurtunity does not exist (if i were born without legs i would have less oppurtunity than someone with legs), enforced rights alone does not guarantee fair and just society, poor people who are poor of structural reasons (like that there is not enough jobs to employ everybody who are wiling to work) cant eat rights and so on. I can tell you what is a communist idea, basic marx. Humans are sacred. Each life wasted by war, famine or poverty is a unforgivable crime. And communism is taking all the criminals and putting them against the wall. Their rights are forfit.

Communism doesn't work. People who say they support communism aren't ready to work 12 hours a day doing back breaking work with no benefits.

>>21
Libertarian ideas are not part of a complex political movement, their only purpose is to eliminate and prevent tyranny. As long as you continue to abide by the principles of liberty and justice you can be communist, socialist or stalinist for all I care.

Just because services are provided by the state it doesn't necessarily mean they are of high quality or that you don't have to pay for it.

As seen in the russian revolution all talk of representing the people was rapidly declared a plot by the capitalist boogeymen and stamped out, violently. They got away with this not only by paranoia and ignorance, but by claiming that communism would do what the people want anyway and that a dictatorship of the "proletariat" isn't worth risking your life against, after all that's what the boogeymen want.

Democracy has withstood totalitarianism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/world_war_2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/cold_war

Democracies are the least corrupt on the planet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

The Romans hardly valued liberty at all, that's completely absurd.

"As i have pointed out has democracy been used as tool for tyranny far more times than communism."
How can rule by the people be used as a tool for rule by 1 tyrant?

"The slaves need to be freed before they need the right to vote."
How can slaves vote? This is getting ridiculous.

"Each life wasted by war, famine or poverty is a unforgivable crime."
That idea has been around for 1000s of years. It's called justice. If you think Marx invented justice gb2 north korea.

Libertarianism doesn't work. People who say they support Libertarianism aren't ready to work 12 hours a day doing back breaking work with no benefits.

>>23
"Democracy has withstood totalitarianism. Democracies are the least corrupt on the planet."
That is today, and has a milage of about 100 hundred years. Democracy has been around for far longer than that. The roman republic system is the basis for the american representative democracy. The cold war is lol as democracy against totalitarianism since a lot of democracies (Chile, Guatemala, Iran etc) by another democracies (USA, UK etc) in overall struggle against communism. You see, the idea of liberty was used as a tool to install market- and west friendly dictators. Liberty makes great propaganda.

"How can slaves vote? This is getting ridiculous."
Well, as long as they are slaves (ie not being free) then there is no point of them having democratic rights. That means that the process of emancipation starts with the violent breaking of chains, as opposed to free speech or any other liberty. And chains can be of other kinds than that of iron.

"If you think Marx invented justice gb2 north korea."
Well, if you think that libertarians invented liberty gb2 the cato institute.

i just shit on my keyboard, it's the same as writing something stupid on the politics forum :)

>Unite against what?
it's supposed to be against the bourgeoisie

>They're not real communist countries anymore.
sorry, you just discredited everything you might say with this line. there never has been a communist state, and there never will be, because communism is a utopia. I suggest you read 'the road to serfdom' by friedrich a. hayek, and mayble then you'll understand then how unlikely it is that collectivism could prevail

>Grade A trolling.
for it to be effective trolling, you're supposed to sprinkle some truths in there. not the case with these posts, though, so it's actually low grade

>>25
Stop ignoring parts of my argument. If you didn't ignore...

"Libertarian ideas are not part of a complex political movement, their only purpose is to eliminate and prevent tyranny."

You would realise people who claim to be libertarian but don't adhere to fundamental libertarian principles such as free speech and represetantive government then they are not libertarians.

Stalin esnured everyone was equal, but these principles did nothing to stop him from starving and executing 20 millions people.

Communism makes great propoganda aswell, for the last time I never deny the inability of libertarianism to turn the universe into heaven overnight.

Read this 50 times.

"Libertarian ideas are not part of a complex political movement, their only purpose is to eliminate and prevent tyranny."
"Libertarian ideas are not part of a complex political movement, their only purpose is to eliminate and prevent tyranny."
"Libertarian ideas are not part of a complex political movement, their only purpose is to eliminate and prevent tyranny."

The principles of free speech and representative government cannot be used by a tyrant to get into power. Sometime somewhere a corrupt element of a democracy will misuse liberty as an excuse to act like an ashole, but compare this with communism where the ruler can act like assholes all they want without criticism (which incidentally you are not being executed for since you live in the US and not North KOrea) and you see my point.

When you look at what liberty fails to do, also look at what communism fails to do. When you look at what communism has done, look at what liberty has done.

Also don't ignore my arguments. Before you even thought about my argument the fact that I criticised communims had you brand me an evil capitalist. Not everyone who criticises communism is from the CATO institute or an evil capitalist who wants to exploit the proletariat. I think someone who believes Marx invented justice gives me enough reason to tell them to gb2 North Korea. Don't you?

"As long as you continue to abide by the principles of liberty and justice you can be communist, socialist or stalinist for all I care."

If I were an evil capitalist why would I say that? Why would I be encouraging people to be socialist as long as they do not interefere with the safe guards against tyranny? Not only am I correct, I have given a superior means to achieve communism or socialism than violent bloody revolution which would inevitably lead to another tyranny as has occurred in history 100s of times with 100s of different ideals. Libertarinism isn't one of these ideals because...

"Libertarian ideas are not part of a complex political movement, their only purpose is to eliminate and prevent tyranny."
"Libertarian ideas are not part of a complex political movement, their only purpose is to eliminate and prevent tyranny."
"Libertarian ideas are not part of a complex political movement, their only purpose is to eliminate and prevent tyranny."

>>25
"That means that the process of emancipation starts with the violent breaking of chains, as opposed to free speech or any other liberty."
No it goes like this.

A war to neutralise the tyrannic forces.
Declarations of core human rights and liberties as a safeguard against further tyranny.
Representative government that sees to the needs of the free.

Without safeguards against tyranny eventually the militaristic freed slaves will become military dictators. One of the basic principles of libertarianism is that no one can be trusted with too much power and if someone has to have that power they must be subject to criticism and under the rule of law like everyone else. What exactly do you think when your communist patriarchs declared that free speech was "the freedom to exploit the proletariat" or human rights are "the freedom to exploit the proletariat"? The 2 are unrelated, safeguards against tyranny only prevent tyranny, they don't ensure equality. It isn't logical at all.

>>29
By the 2 are unrelated I meant free speech is unrelated to "the freedom to exploit the proletariat" and human rights are unrelated to "the freedom to exploit the proletariat".

come on, the guy obviously hates liberty, it's no use getting trolled by it, and you're speaking different languages anyway. I mean, if someone thinks that planned economy, collectivism, dictatorship of the masses, state terror, despotism etc. are good things, it's impossible for a person who believes the ideals of liberalism to communicate with him

There that about covers everything.

Call the science of preventing tyranny what you want, if you place anything about the principles of liberty and justice you give people an escuse to by-pass the safeguards against tyranny. The tyrant might not do it today or tommorrow, people will say "maybe this guy is ok and will do what he is supposed to", but eventually once he sinks his claws further into society and stamps out political opposition, the Lenins will be assassinated and the Stalin will take power.

Fine, be a communist, but try to take my human rights away and you won't be a communist for much longer!

>>31
True, but I have the flu at the moment and I am in sort of a stupour. I know he will use this in argument against me, but I don't care lol.

>>29
it's also a fact that communist propagandists have subverted a number of terms, like freedom, so when a liberal says freedom it means real freedom, but for a communist it means something that's much closer to oppression

>>34
but sounds the same, and gives them some ground against people that aren't fully aware of it

Hey guys, today's "Proletariat" are the black and Mexicans. You want them telling you what to do?

>>36
don't forget white trash

OMFG, china, cuba,etc... are not fucking communists, read a fucking marx book, he didnt wrote about about totalitarism, facism, etc... m

>>38
actually, he did write about totalitarianism (not "totalitarism") and fascism (not "facism") as in dictatorship of the masses. please learn something, and until then stfu

>>38
He was essentially said "If dictators were nice to people instead of being big meanies the world would be a better place.", he was right, if dictators were nice to people the world would be a better place, but the real world isn't that simple.

Libertarians take a different approach, instead of working from conclusions down they work from the facts up. Tyranny thrives on oppression so oppression must be removed by arming the peasants and declaring that they should attack anyone who attempts to take their free speech or property, even if they are peasants like themselves.

Communists claim that liberty is evil because it doesn't stop people from owning factories and paying people low salaries. Liberty doesn't do anything to prevent a nation from achieving an acceptable level of income equality, or more importantly reduction in poverty which for some reason liberals talk about less, liberty eliminates the tyranny that permits people to try out new ideas to make the world a better place. Qhat you do after that is up to ou as long as you don't use it as an excuse to envoke tyranny.