>>20
"I instead look at what communism did, which is considerably less than what liberty did in it's primordial stage."
Well, since you only compare ideologies after one axis (freedom of making any financial decision you want) of course you fail to see what communism has done. You prolly doesnt see the banning of child labor, labor laws, unions, cheap universal healthcare, extensive public transportation, freedom from religion and family (meaning that through cheap housing you are not forced to live with your parents till you are 30), gender equality etc as merits to communism. You prolly believe that some of the above is are sole to libertarianism but they actually are not, and as a force shaping society the ideology of communism have affected far more people today than this recent libertarianism (and no, the greeks were not libertarians).
And again, is it really trolling to point out that your definition of liberty does not include slave free society with universal suffrage?
What democracy failed at was to create a society that could withstand totalitarianism and corruption. The romans tried even harder, and failed even harder, creating on of the globes most enduring dictatorships.
"What communism would do is strip the middle classes of their power and put it in the pocket of whaytever tyrant is using communism as an ideal to get into power."
You may believe what you will, but just believing is not an argument for anything. As i have pointed out has democracy been used as tool for tyranny far more times than communism.
"So you need liberty before communism?"
No, its the other way around. The slaves need to be freed before they need the right to vote. You believe that everybody that is born has equal opportunity, and just as long as everybodies rights are respected everything will turn out fine for everybody, each person getting what they are prepared to work for and so on. Well, basic premise fails, equal oppurtunity does not exist (if i were born without legs i would have less oppurtunity than someone with legs), enforced rights alone does not guarantee fair and just society, poor people who are poor of structural reasons (like that there is not enough jobs to employ everybody who are wiling to work) cant eat rights and so on. I can tell you what is a communist idea, basic marx. Humans are sacred. Each life wasted by war, famine or poverty is a unforgivable crime. And communism is taking all the criminals and putting them against the wall. Their rights are forfit.