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9/11=terrorism?

Name: Sim Sala Bin Laden 2006-12-22 23:12

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed at least 100000 civilians. These were not military targets. Japan was a military dictarorship at the time, the people had not elected the people in power and had no authority to sway them in any way, and therefore not responsible for any action that regime took.
They were not warned that their homes would be bombed by a weapon that their shelters could not protect them from.
How would you defend this without justifying the attack on WTC on 9/11?

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-22 23:21

They started it.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 0:01

go fuck yourself

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 0:06

Wow, I win that quick huh?

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 0:06

>>2
Usama sais the same.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 0:13

>>5

Yes, but my opinion is more important because I'm a U.S. Citizen.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 0:46

>>6
So, i guess that if, hypothetically speaking, Osama was right and the US started fucking with him, then he would be in the right bombing WTC and the Pentagon? If not, why?

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 1:18

Just FYI, I was joking in my last three posts (I'm 2, 4, and 6).

The Pentagon, yes. The WTC, no.

The "US" refers to an organization of bueaucrats, soldiers, and elected officials. I, as a resident of the US, am not "The US". Governments love this illusion that a country is identical to the territory it controls and the people within that territory. To understand my perspective, you gotta realize that it's not the case. The Florida is a region. The State of Florida is a group of people. America is a region. The US, abbrevation for "United States Government", is not the same as the region it claims as territory.

If US destroys Osama's property, Osama can rightly destroy the US's property, provided Osama did not first destroy the US's property.

The Pentagon is property of the United States. So yeah, I don't care if Osama blew up the Pentagon.
The WTC is not property of the United States. It was wrong of Osama to destroy the WTC as the owners of the WTC had done nothing to Osama.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 1:32

Yeah, okay, but do you then agree that the blowing up of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was wrong since these were not military targets or as you see it property of the Japaneese government (or the Emparor i guess)? The japaneese people did not attack pearl harbor as you said and should not be responsible for their governments actions?

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 1:56

>>9
fails because japan was not a capitalist state, so we had the right to kill all japanese. AMIRITE?

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 2:16

Well, the US is not a true market econmy but a mixed economy, so therefore not a true capitalist state, so then i guess its a free for all on you?

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 2:45

(Author of 2/4/6/8 here)

What the US did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki was wrong. That said, it was a pretty damn spectacular mistake.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 8:15

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 10:19

Yes, the US did a lot of bad shit during the war (see: Dresden, Hiroshima).  But during the war, we were literally fighting to save entire countries.  It's all about scale.  I am a moral relativist because morals are, in fact, relative.  Bin Laden was fighting to save his way of life, sure, but I'm sorry, the needs of a few hundred radicals don't match up to the needs of the countries involved in WW2.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 10:27

>>10
You really know nothing? Japan was capitalistic state and infact surprisingly free even being dictatorship. Japanese were indeed superior even under their god emperor. Only reason they allied with Nazis was because others didn't approve Emperor's conquests and Chink buttkicking.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 10:29

>>13
Thats just silly, hiroshima was ok because japan got richer afterwards? And WTC was wrong because US is pisspoor now?

>>14
When hiroshima happened the outcome was allready certain, Germany had surrendered and Soviet Russia had started to attack Japan. There were no countries left to liberate. But even if there were, 100000 civilians for a country is ok? Isnt a few hundred radicals for 3000 in the same scale in the same scale? It doesnt sound completely different for me, who are also a moral relativist. And besides that, shouldnt it at least be seen as a warcrime?

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 10:42

>>16
Spoiler: Time occurs.

Think cause and effect. Was Osama's intentions to make the US richer? I think not. The US submitted great expense and lives to the war against Japan, yet it never asked for reparations. Instead it forced Japan to become a low-corruption human rights respecting democracy which in turn laid the foundations for free-market wealth that nations such as the Phillipines never experienced. The US nuked Nagasaki and Hiroshima in order to make the world a better place and they succeeded.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 11:03

>>17
Osamas intentions was to make save US citizens from hell by abandoning they ways of the devil, so it was ok then? The intention to do good makes every genocide ok then? Or can it only be assessed as a warcrime 50 years later? The holocaust created israel, yet israel recieves reperations from germany. The israelites should be thankful for the holocaust, maybe even paying the gasbill?

Funny thing, before the russians entered the war the japaneese wanted to surrender,just under the condition that they could keep the emparor. The US demanded unconditional surrender and retook guadalcanal or whatever. Russians enters the theater after germany surrenders, the US bombs hiroshima and nagasaki, then accepts the conditional surrender. What? They let them keep their emperor, to the glee of japaneese fascists and natianalists (who started the war to begin with). Just a sidenote.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 11:44

>>18
"Osamas intentions was to make save US citizens from hell by abandoning they ways of the devil, so it was ok then?"
Spoiler: People lie.
If that was Osama's intentions, he went about it in a very illogical manner and it is not ok to be incorrect. More likely though Osama lied and just wanted to whip up support for his extremist movement and ideology. That pretty much crushes the rest of your argument so I'll leave it there. It is evident that you are too stupid to complete an analysis of this situation, so just ask questions.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-23 12:20

>>19
You missed the point. If, hypothetically speaking, Osama told the truth and his intentions were good (i have no idea if this were the case), would it then be okay for him to fly planes into the WTC? I ask questions because i am curious about how people can justify hiroshima and at the same time condemn wtc.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-24 0:49

I want his head on display at the smithsonium. Then you can have your silly ass debates and rewrite history for the terminally stupid.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-24 1:16

>>20
That branch of ethics would take far to long to explain here, dont expect a response but do look into it elsewhere

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-24 2:25

I love how this thread consists of mindnumbingly retarded "counter-arguments" that totally dodge other peoples' points.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-24 3:07

>>23
I love how this thread consists of mindnumbingly retarded "critics" that totally dodge the entire thread by not actually contributing while sitting atop their high horse.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-24 4:11

>>24
I love how people take this forum too seriously and expect someone to spend their time maticulously disproving their trolls.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-24 16:33

>>24

lolz, logical fallacy. Let me give you some contributions, then.

>>15

Do some research, and you might find that that statement is entirely BS. A capitalist economy does not equate to a free state in any sense; one is an economic system and the other is a system of government. Under Tojo, the military government recklessly abandoned human rights, both of its citizens at home, abroad, and its conquered nationals; the economy was reshaped into a command economy dedicated to improving military production.

Partly, the Japanese invasions in Southeast Asia in the early 1930s were simply due to seeking additional natural resources to fuel their military. Your statement on why they joined the Axis also has no real basis in history. Indeed, the existence of an emperor was largely responsible for the creation of the military government--not for opposing it.

The Meiji constitution stated that the Japanese government was accountable to the emperor, and on the grounds that their politics were dividing the nation, the Parliament actually voted to dissolve themselves into a body for 'assisting' imperial rule  that had no real political power. Thus, nobody could stop the military takeover.


>>17

NOT the goals of the United States at the time, sorry. The US nuked Nagasaki and Hiroshima to in part to win a war, in part to test a new weapon, and in part to curb Soviet aggression.

First, the estimates, given the experiences of Okinawa and Iwo Jima, caused the US military to believe a direct invasion of Japan would be devastating to their own army. They'd win, of course, but at too high a cost. For the record, the Japanese entirely refused a surrender, contrary to what >>18 says, and the nuclear bomb was used to facilitate this.

It had been iterated at (I believe) the Tehran Conference by the Soviet Union that, upon the defeat of Germany, the USSR would turn its troops to Japan. By late 45, we hadn't done so yet, and we didn't want the Russians to conquer Japan. Ultimately, the United States goals were to keep the defeated nations sovereign, but pacified, as opposed to controlled like those that the Soviet Union "liberated."

To that end, plus considering that we had to not only show off our new bomb to the world so that people wouldn't fuck with us, we dropped the bomb. And does that justify it? No, I don't really think so, knowing now what we know about how well the USSR turned out, but at the time it was a very serious fear.

>>18

There were a lot of Jews in the Israel area prior to World War II, however, it was not formally partitioned by the English government until after the Holocaust. Moreover, it was not directly caused by the Holocaust, though it is true that the Holocaust was a contributing factor.

Moreover, the Holocaust was a systematic murder of millions, not the quick destruction of two quasi-military targets.

And, yes, this is one thing that's been neglected. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were respectively (or maybe it's the other way around) military centers, the former being a site for a great degree of military industrial production and the latter having various infrastructure and command located in it. The civilians were largely collateral, though certainly not accidental collateral.


>>19

Actually, if you believe that's what Osama did say, then he did lie. Especially because he didn't really say it. He iterated repeatedly that, while it was too bad Americans lived in America, he had to bring a tyrannous beast to the ground due to America's constant support for Israel and its reckless ravaging of Muslim countries, in accordance with the fatwa he's issued.

Do you want a quote?

"Terrorism against America deserves to be praised because it was a response to injustice, aimed at forcing America to stop its support for Israel, which kills our people,"

"While I was looking at these destroyed towers in Lebanon, it sparked in my mind that the tyrant should be punished with the same and that we should destroy towers in America, so that it tastes what we taste and would be deterred from killing our children and women."

It's about revenge, not religious salvation.

>>22

No, it wouldn't. Moral relativism is pretty easy to explain.

Basically, >>20, it means that there is no universal standard of morality, and that individual circumstances must be scrutinized in order to determine morality.

In that regard, individual subjectivity provides the only true 'morality.'

So, anyway, were both acts justified? Honestly, yeah, I can see how they'd both be justified and how they both wouldn't be. And, honestly, I don't really have an opinion, as personally, I don't believe morality can be justified in government.

Though I do believe that Hiroshima and Nagasaki can be justified a bit better than 9/11.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-24 20:34

Both deserved the bomb. Proud and stupid bastards who need to know their place.

god bless

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-24 23:34

>>19 here
>>20
If he "did", then he was incorrect with devastating consequences. Being incorrect is wrong.

The Japanese military elite were extremists and wouldn't care if it meant putting their entire country through years of hell if it meant not surrenderring. Many of their major cities were being firebombed in an attempt to force a surrender, in fact even more were killed through firebombing than through both nukes put together. There was no choice in the matter for the US, if they gave the Japanese breathing space they would only use it to rebuild their military and continue the war.

>>26
You type too much, it's christmas. Osama bin laden used terrorism when political activism would have been much more effective. Osama acted like an idiot by ranting and raving instead of creating rational arguments against the US's crimes. Even if Osama bin laden's intentions were "good", sitting back and doing nothing would just invite more terrorism and thus the reaction would have to be as though Osama was a terrorist.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-25 2:06

>>28

26 here; Christmas means little to my sort.

In any case, my point was more that religious salvation was never the grounds for Osama's attacks; I'm not really trying to rationalize him at all.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-25 14:01

>>29
Shu the fuck up and celebrate christmas.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-25 15:49

>>14

Dresden was a British act, not American.

Name: Xel 2006-12-25 16:20

>>1 Hiroshima and Nagasaki were indubitably (is that spelled right?) motivated by the experimentally important empirical experience - while another factor may be the desire to tell the Communists what the stakes were. So it is one heck of a despicable attack, far worse than 9/11, even when not from a utilitarian POW.


Name: Anonymous 2006-12-26 12:56

There have been times over the years that I thought libertarians might have a point in some discussions. Your complete disregard for truth or even common decency have convinced me that your just another group of nut balls. You may rewrite history all you like but the only one who is listening is you.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-26 13:15

>>32
You are mixing up cause and effect intentionally as you enjoy bullshitting especially if it hurts americans. The effects of the nukings were not the reasons why the US did it. The primary reason from the highest level was simply to put an end to world war 2 without any terms that might risk future war, they had tried every means possible to do so up to the point where they had a choice of a land invasion of Japan or forcing a surrender using nuclear weapons. They firebombed major industrial areas for months, but the Hirohito wouldn't surrender, so they used an atomic bomb, still Hirohito didn't surrender, so they used another nuclear weapon and finally he did surrender.

The Chinese and other nations had endured years of terrorisation and atrocities from the Japanese, world war 2 had dragged on for 6 years and cost well over 50 million lives by that point. Who would want a continuation of the war?

It would have been evil NOT to use nuclear weapons.

Name: Xel 2006-12-26 13:47

>>34 That is useful to believe, but it is not true.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-26 14:38

>>35
Anonymous: 1+1=2
Xel: That is useful to believe, but it is not true.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-26 15:43

>>36
This is semantics, but "1+1=2" is an axiom of mathematics.  It has no actual truth value, but instead is an assumed starting point constructed precisely for the purpose of spawning useful statements about mathematics.  In other words, "1+1=2" really is useful to believe, but it is not true.  Of course, I don't really have any idea what specifically Xel was citing in >>34's comment, but oh well.

My 2 cents: Killing of ANY kind is always evil and wrong.  We should, however, always attempt to understand and be forgiving of motives and justifications.  We're only human, after all.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-26 16:05

>>37

LOL KANT

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-26 16:24

>>38
No, David Hilbert.  Kant's theory of knowledge actually worked in the opposite manner; he believed some axioms had real truth, and that our knowledge proceeded from these axioms a priori.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-26 20:26

>>39

I mean Kant's silly ethical theory of a purported universal morals that involved never lying under any circumstances, the same way you say never killing under any circumstances, even though there are cases where any choice is in moral conflict with each other, and so render that idea illogical...

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-27 1:24

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-27 9:19

"In 1945 Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives."
-Dwight D Eisenhower

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-27 9:20

"The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan."
-Chester W. Nimitz

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-27 9:21

"The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender."
-William D. Leahy

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-27 9:22

"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."
-United States Strategic Bombing Survey

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-27 9:24

"Historian Tsuyoshi Hasegawa's research has led him to conclude that the atomic bombings themselves were not even the principal reason for capitulation. Instead, he contends, it was the swift and devastating Soviet victories in Manchuria that forced the Japanese surrender on August 15, 1945."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#_note-49

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-27 10:35

>>42
Why didn't they surrender unconditionally then?
>>43
Why didn't they surrender unconditionally then?
>>44
Why didn't they surrender unconditionally then?
>>45
Why didn't they surrender unconditionally then?
>>46
Why didn't they surrender unconditionally then?

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-27 11:58

>>47
"Many, including General MacArthur, have contended that Japan would have surrendered before the bombings if the U.S. had notified Japan that it would accept a surrender that allowed Emperor Hirohito to keep his position as titular leader of Japan, a condition the U.S. did in fact allow after Japan surrendered. U.S. leadership knew this, through intercepts of encoded Japanese messages, but refused to clarify Washington's willingness to accept this condition. Before the bombings, the position of the Japanese leadership with regards to surrender was divided. Several diplomats favored surrender, while the leaders of the Japanese military voiced a commitment to fighting a "decisive battle" on Kyūshū, hoping that they could negotiate better terms for an armistice afterward. The Japanese government did not decide what terms, beyond preservation of an imperial system, they would have accepted to end the war; as late as August 9, the Supreme War Council was still split, with the hard-liners insisting Japan should demobilize its own forces, no war crimes trials would be conducted, and no occupation of Japan would be allowed. Only the direct intervention of the emperor ended the dispute, and even then a military coup was attempted to prevent the surrender."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#_note-49

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-27 12:36

>>48
So it took 2 uses of nuclear weapons to convince the Japanese leadership to remain "undivided" in agreeing to unconditional surrender. The nuclear weapons had to be used to stop world war 2 which by that point had seen countless atrocities, destruction and over 50 million lives lost prematurely. The Japanese civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't deserve to die, but then again neither did the allied soldiers on the beaches of Normandy.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-27 17:08

>>47 Because, as these proffessional investigations show, time was the issue, not the costs of not surrendering.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-27 18:37

>>50
The cost of a continuation of the war would be too high. It had to be ended as quickly as possible by whatever means necessary.

Name: Anonymous 2006-12-27 19:43

"Let me say only this much to the moral issue involved: Suppose Germany had developed two bombs before we had any bombs. And suppose Germany had dropped one bomb, say, on Rochester and the other on Buffalo, and then having run out of bombs she would have lost the war. Can anyone doubt that we would then have defined the dropping of atomic bombs on cities as a war crime, and that we would have sentenced the Germans who were guilty of this crime to death at Nuremberg and hanged them?."
-Leo Szilard

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-17 17:29

I'm from the future and I just want to let you guys know that we killed Osama and the president at the time was named Barack Hussein Obama, who was a half-black Muslim.

No I'm not making shit up.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-29 12:15

!SWEJ, WE

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-31 14:06

NEVER JEW A JEW

Don't change these.
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