Affirmative Action Banned!

My state (Michigan) has wisely followed in the foosteps of California and banned racist/sexist affirmative action programs in Michigan, that would have discriminated against people based on nothing but their gender or the color of their skin, all in the name of promoting equality.  

It passed by a pretty wide margin 58% - 42% of the vote.. or, another way of looking at it: 

2,137,574  ---  YES on stopping AA
1,552,459  ---  NO on stopping AA

Hopefully this'll spread like wildfire throughout the rest of the states. 

Individual black people don't need racially oriented preferential treatment or handouts in life to succeed. 

Said charts don't indicate lack of intelligence, but lack of effort in school and in the individual's studies. 

People should be treated on an individual basis, not a racial basis.

>>162  I agree. 

>>162
I AGREE THAT'S WHY I SUPPORT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION! I DONT CARE IF THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE LOGIC IS JUST BULLSHIT MADE UP BY DEAD WHITE MEN AND YOU'RE A RACIST SO I CAN MAKE UP WHATEVER THE FUCK I WANT

logic is for racists, LoL

>>157

Again, you're not really getting it. Score and graphs simply don't apply here; the reason for the lack of ambition or irresponsibility doesn't come down solely to the individual in this case. There are reasons for the lack of effort. There's a history of subversive degradation and subjegation here that - for whatever reason - you're completely and utterly disregarding.

Throwing causality out of the window makes you guilty of perpetuating these cultural memes. These persistant cultural memes contribute to futher discrimination, self-degradation and lack of ambition and so on and so forth.

Meritocracy can easily become discrimination when, in light of these memes, lighter skin tone becomes something meritable.

And that's precisely what AA addresses. Pretending that it somehow persecutes those innocent of discrimination is severely illogical in that the policy only effects those who discriminate based on race. Those who are innocent simply aren't effected, unless you consider hiring a black person over a white person to be punishable.

"What about one instance? I am not denying that there is any discrimination occurring, but I AM saying by and large, it is not a problem.  The bigger problem, is laziness and irresponsibility, not racism."

But again, you're white. You don't live within the same cultural context as a black person and you should stop being so presumpious in assuming what goes on "by and large" unless you have something to back it up. If what we've seen statistically of the racial disparity is any indication...things have gotten worse.

>>166
How does any of this prove affirmative action would be good?

If you want to solve problems you have to find the causes through proving direct causal links, analyse them and calculate the best solution. You haven't even clearly defined the causes, just said "oh I personally was a slave for 500 years and merely want compensation in the form of replacing people who are better qualified than me because dark skin is meritable".

>>167

If that's what you think I've said, then you need to take a fucking reading comprehension class. Perhaps you would like to cite where I've said or implied such an idiotic statement?

I suppose not, eh?

>>168
"the reason for the lack of ambition or irresponsibility doesn't come down solely to the individual in this case. There are reasons for the lack of effort."
Contradiction. Lack of effort is due to the individual. I accept that an individual can be tormented by racism into not putting effort into things, but I will not accept that by default someone's race has anything to do with it.

"these cultural memes."
So some people are stupid and believe that racist shit. Affirmative action only serves to justify them.

"lighter skin tone becomes something meritable."
But it isn't meritable, only a person's abilities are meritable. So meritocracy is the best policy.

"Pretending that it somehow persecutes those innocent of discrimination is severely illogical in that the policy only effects those who discriminate based on race."
Do the maths retard. Quotas don't work. I will remind you that if a racist company must employ 10% non-white workers, needs 10 workers and of the top 10 applicants 2 are non-white, the racist company can discriminate against 1 non-white without penalty.

All the problems you come up with are either perpetuated by affirmative action or solved by simply increasing civil rights law enforcement and regulation.

Civil rights. Yes!
Affirmatice Action. GTFO

"Contradiction. Lack of effort is due to the individual. I accept that an individual can be tormented by racism into not putting effort into things, but I will not accept that by default someone's race has anything to do with it."

Contradiction? How? How can you say with any certainty that in all instances lack of effort is primarly due to the individual? If you can accept that racism is torment, then you surely realize that no matter what you (a white person) may think about an individuals actions- that his or her's race will come into play- often without them even being cognitively aware of it. And you no one said that 'race is the problem by default'--- I said that they were "contributing factors".

"But it isn't meritable, only a person's abilities are meritable. So meritocracy is the best policy."

According to who? You? Again, you're not getting the simple idea that there are people are there who are non-black and perpetuate these cultural memes to the point where white-skin is preferable and meritable over brown-skin. Of course, meritocracy is the best policy. But what precisely do you think happens when (Again: Due to the history and culture) white skin becomes a "merit"? What should be done in this case? Who should step in?

"Do the maths retard. Quotas don't work. I will remind you that if a racist company must employ 10% non-white workers, needs 10 workers and of the top 10 applicants 2 are non-white, the racist company can discriminate against 1 non-white without penalty. --- All the problems you come up with are either perpetuated by affirmative action or solved by simply increasing civil rights law enforcement and regulation."

Pedantic vaguery. There would no need for affirmative action if whites were discriminated against along with everyone else. AA is not a final solution by any means- but it is a step in the right direction in the government putting a cap on racist sentiments in this country.

You're so fucking stupid that you don't even realize "simply increasing civil rights law enforcement and regulation" hasn't been working. You're trying to simplify something that very complicated. American culture is perverted and sick from the inside-out when it comes to race- particularly when dealing with blacks- and no amount of "enforcement" is going to work. I bet you think the "War on Drugs" and the "War on Terror" are valid as well? You can't have a war on an ideal- you have expose it's ignorance and re-build from scratch. This no easy task--- and while AA is a hard pill to swallow--- it is a step in the right direction.

>>170
Individuals make decisions based on what they are exposed to, no matter what the collective pressure individuals still make the decisions.

"Who should step in?"
Justice and logic. It's the only way. If you get into this reactionary bullshit with Louis Farrakhan and other assholes all you do is perpetuate the cultural memes and create a whole host of new screwed up memes. You say it is naive to believe that everyone should be treated equally and that some corners should be cut here and there to ease the passing. Well I say it is naive to believe that cutting corners is fine and that you don't have to set and example to gain people's trust.

"There would no need for affirmative action if whites were discriminated against along with everyone else."
Oh, well, I was thinking you know that we simply set up regulations and laws to ensure no one was discriminated against. Though I guess if equality is that important I guess we can pull guns to white people's heads and make them miss a day off work or not study so hard until their statistics are worse than the worst stats provided by some minority.

So people who exhibit worse results in tests make less money? Really? This is not what I and ac address.

IQ is part genes, part environmental shaping.
Hair color and certain endocrinal pathways are dictated by genes only.
Some aspects of behavior are more detached from biochemistry, such as cognitive schemata and some behavioral conditioning.

A crime-glorifying, education-rejecting and anti-progress culture is the problem, as is racism. The two factors are in a feedback relationship. And African immigrants are still more educated than the asians, the gems of the right-wingers eyes.

>>171 "Individuals make decisions based on what they are exposed to, no matter what the collective pressure individuals still make the decisions." Read up on cognitive psychology, please. Right-wingers love to pull up behavioral psychology in order to state that "hand-outs" make people lazy, but they completely fail to understand what other forces really do to people.

>>173
Cognitive psychology = an analysis of the decisions individuals make based on what they are exposed to. If they are exposed to socialist communismity stimuli, the stimuli's effects are still based on it's effects on the individual. Sociology (before the pseudo-science of modern-sociology at least) has always been about how INDIVIDUALS interact. Considerring groups to be collective entities is a logical fallacy and is as blunt and pointless as considerring molecules to not exist. Especially if you are trying to do something as complex as stop discrimination or produce electricity conducting plastics.

>>174

"Considerring groups to be collective entities is a logical fallacy and is as blunt and pointless as considerring molecules to not exist."

But it still happens! Doesn't really matter if we agree on the logical fallacy of racism- there are people who don't and they affect other people's lives in a "Feedback relationship" as Xel calls it. (Which is what I've been referring to up and down this thread.) AA address those people.

Listen; I'm just going to be frank...the people posting in this thread probably aren't black (well, besides me), probably don't spend alot of time around blacks, can't concievably understand "black culture", hasn't bothered to understand that it's core history irrevocably lies with White America and the cultural decisions White America has made since the abolishment of slavery... and if you suggest such a thing you're accused of not believing in Individualism, Freedom, supporting racism, Etc.

I used to wonder why this is- but then I realized that these are the people spouting off about "reverse discrimination" (talk about your illogical fallacies) and start whining about whites being discriminated against. Is it that you're trying to desperately avoid white guilt? What about the secretly-self hating guilt and hopelessness I've seen other blacks have to deal with? You're saying the whites are losing their jobs because they are white---- ok, I understand that, but the same thing is happening to blacks. And has been happening to them longer and at times more subversively than AA policies. 

Of course, I can look at myself and say: "I'm different from them, though..." --- and I used to truly believe that it was because I was better at 'being an individual'. But then again; I wasn't exposed to what these kids around me are exposed to-- it wasn't even the way I raised--- it came down to pretty much chance encounters and RARE breeds of people that stepped in where society had failed and steered me in the "right direction".

Look: All I'm saying is that "Civil Rights Enforcement" is far too fucking vague for me and it's far too similar to the 'resistant to change' bullshit that we saw before Malcolm X came along. I see no plan of action, no specifics, no meat to "Let's just enforce...." --- It just sounds half serious.

Meanwhile, in my eyes, AA IS "Civil Rights Enforcement" --- the problem is anti-AA whites are delusion in thinking that it revokes their civil rights, when honestly, they have never had and probably never will have a civil right problem in this country. Pretending that AA put you on the same level as blacks is only half-true and it only becomes a problem if you hold your race above everything else.

>>174 No, your definition of cognitive psychology is wrong. What you are talking about is still behavioral psychology. Also, sociology is still a viable, important subject, it has just increased noticably in obsolesence.

>>175 I just think it is easy, to the point of cheap, to point at 50 Cent or that annoying little brat who made poems about how useless white people were and say "These areas they live in do not promote success, only short-term gratification. They should not have the money of more productive citizens" without considering all the other, unfair factors that cause black people to make decisions that in turn leaves "African Americans" (a term that is a bit crude, especially regarding people from the carribean or pacifc nations) over-represented in crime statistics.

I don't approve of welfare for the sake of welfare, but "Black culture" didn't just show up, it coalesced *inside* of a non-meritocratic, racist system and apparently hasn't had much reason to change. It's not like white people have tried to make things right and meritocratic in the current decades but that black people just broke out the Cristal and went "Blow it out your ass whitey -Awoooga, where my welfare and the white wimmin at!?"

Sorry, randroids, you have points but you can't have a night-watcher state unless you create a sufficiently meritocratic culture first. Not yours.

>>175
Considerring groups to be collective entities is an approximation. If you want to analyse the properties of groups of people you don't work with approximations you must work with individuals, how they think and the decisions they make when exposed to a set of stimuli. In fact thinking in terms of approximations and trying to induce hypothesis from them is a major heuristic fallacy explored by cognitive psychology.

>>176
You don't know the difference between behavioural and cognitive psychology otherwise you would have noticed I am using elements from both.
Sociology up until the 1900s was valid and scientific intertwined with political philosophy, economics and historical method. By this point sociology had increased in popularity and was various political groups began to interefere with it, rejecting it's rational scientific roots and generally fucking around finding fallacies they can use for their weird populist agendas. By the end of ww1 the majority of people claiming to be sociologists were in fact pseudo-scientists and whatever was left of rational side of sociology had migrated to the realms of economics, political science, analytic philosophy and psychology.

>>178 Where were you referring to the internal processes between stimuli and response in your posts?

"In fact thinking in terms of approximations and trying to induce hypothesis from them is a major heuristic fallacy explored by cognitive psychology." Studying and analyzing individual cases does not offer relevant improvements for an entire population. So we amass as much data as possible to achieve a recommendation based on probabilistics. Clinton's welfare reform, as seen, worked and made parts of the black minority more contributing citizens, although it would have worked better if the republicans hadn't hampered it.

>>178

Pure hogwash. Semantic arguments don't work here. You're asking me to do something that American white culture hasn't done and has never done for a wide variety of minorities in this country. You're confusing what I know to be a variable of the truth- with realistic policies that work in solving a pretty complicated problem.

It doesn't matter what we agree on about an individuals response to stimuli when that stimuli is dictated by people who make/made these very same approximations of which you speak-- and have used them to subjegate minorities. Ever read "Behold, A Pale White Horse"? A bullshit book, no doubt, but a phrase certainly stands out: "It doesn't matter what you believe; THEY believe it so you WILL be affected."

Tell me; is this post your way of conceding? Because "Blacks are just lazy, unambitious...hurf...on the individual level, I mean. :)" is the exact kind of "approximation" you speak of. I mean, come on now, this sound like you haven't thought it out.

Sitting here and placing everything that wrong with "Black Culture" without addressing the hundreds of years of cultural enginnering that went into that is like saying history never happened.

I'm sorry, but it did, and for things to get better again--- there's going to have to be a lot more of Justice if people don't want to listen to logic (racism being a logical fallacy). Justice comes in the form of AA. If you have no specifics as to precisely what "Civil rights enforcement" entails, then AA IS civil rights enforcement. AA in no way effects non-racists or non-racists companies.  You have zero proof that the black being hired over whites are underqualified and you only assume so because they are black and because AA exists. That doesn't seem logical to me, sorry.

What a stupid debate.  There is no such thing as 'white guilt'.  I've never heard such racist bullshit in my life.  Fuck off AC.  You can't blame me for something my ancestors did.  You CERTAINLY can't blame my neighbor for something HIS ancestors DIDN'T do.  'White guilt' - collective judgement on the white race.  Racist.

>>180
"Justice comes in the form of AA."

So, what you are saying is: 
'Justice comes in the form of racial discrimination.'

Because all whites have discriminated against blacks, right? Oh, and because all blacks have been discriminated against, right?

"Sitting here and placing everything that wrong with "Black Culture" without addressing the hundreds of years of cultural enginnering that went into that is like saying history never happened."

Give credit where credit is due, and do likewise with blame.  Environmental determinism is bullshit.  90% of this just seems to be that you are a loser who is incapable of accepting blame for lack of success in life.  If, on the other hand, you ARE successful, then clearly environmental determinism is, as I suggested, bullshit, since individualism can overcome it.

>>179
You're kidding me...
In this post you almost missed the entire point of science, which is to find patterns and define them. The patterns you describe which occur enmass merely happen on the individual level over and over again. Isn't that obvious? This is less than elementary psychology. Clinton's welfare reforms were aimed at poor people regardless of race so I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

>>180
"Blacks are just lazy, unambitious...hurf...on the individual level, I mean. :)"
What. The. Fuck? I never said that and you have the nerve to say I am quibbling over "semantics" (a statement you didn't back up). This will be my only response if you are going to sink to that level of debate.

>>179
>>180
Seriously you 2 are fucking idiots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svTR-Y4L3kg

LOL AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJrZHVBrO_s&mode=related&search=

>>184 Agreed.

"There's going to have to be a lot more of Justice if people don't want to listen to logic (racism being a logical fallacy). Justice comes in the form of AA. If you have no specifics as to precisely what "Civil rights enforcement" entails, then AA IS civil rights enforcement. AA in no way effects non-racists or non-racists companies.  You have zero proof that the black being hired over whites are underqualified and you only assume so because they are black and because AA exists. That doesn't seem logical to me, sorry."

>>188
This has already been crusehd in debate 7 or 8 times.

If quota is set at 10% and of the 10 best applicants for a job, 2 are black, a racist employer may replace 1 non-white applicant with a white applicant of lower merit without facing criminal charges. Likewise if there were no black applicants in the top ten the employer would have to replace a white applicant with a non-white applicant of lower merit.

Affirmative action means quotas, which means declaring companies to be guilty without concrete proof and it does not cover instances where quotas are not met, unless you intend to ensure every company employs between 10 and 15% non-whites, no more, no less. As much as you think it is ok to discriminate against whites, affirmative action means that in some situations it is ok to discriminate against blacks, just so long as the racist fills the quota.

Affirmative action is not a part of civil rights, it is a policy and whatever it's positive benefits they can be coverred easily by increasing regulation over employment and government institutions using legitimate enforcement of civil rights judged by a court of law. You could of course increase regulation and implement affirmative action at the same time, however these would lead to contradiction in the cases where whites are replaced by blacks in order for quotas to be met. This is injust, but since you've already made your mind up and think discrimination against whites is ok there is no point in me advertising this flaw in affirmative action and I'll end this argument here.

>>188
Wow you are so retarded. 

If the hiring quota for a given race is set at 10%, and the only applicants who apply for a given position who are of the governmentally deemed 'acceptable' race are not the most meritable candidates, the employer is then forced by the government's decree to hire a less meritable candidate.

>>188
my mom has a Phd in Law Librarian Study. A black woman, who has 4 year degree got the job instead of her. is that enough proof for you faggot?

and why would someone want a ph. d. in Law Librarian Study?

>>188
"If you have no specifics as to precisely what "Civil rights enforcement" entails, then AA IS civil rights enforcement."

Oh, so if we don't happen to know the letter of US civil rights law, then that makes you correct in your statement that 'AA is civil rights enforcement'? 

Get a clue retard.  Anyway, AA has been banned by popular vote in Michigan, so enforcing AA now would be going against the will of the people - not to mention the CURRENT law of the land.

>>188
Yeah! So stfu already.

I'm SICK AND TIRED of having race shoved around like a club to beat around those that have had adult encouragement enough to get through college.

Kids need parents or other adults to care about and encourage them, I don't want my kids to be told "you have more melatonin so you're special and don't have to work as hard in school because we'll give you freebie points". What an insult. It’s like saying “we know you’re not as smart, so we’re helping you”. Makes me sick that the Dems do this to people.

What we need is to give people the chance to be equals and rise and fall on their own merits. We need to get through to kids and encourage education, and inform parents of the options. And for the parents that just don’t care, we need to loop back to getting through to the children in the classroom with effective teaching methods.
Take that money being used to pay the special committee and pay the teachers. Just do it-Talk is cheap.

Sure there are assholes who think kids should be taught only WASP history, but there are none of them in the government anymore. It's obvious who the remaining racists are. It's the populists who see RACE bullshit as a way to distract from the things that really matter. I don't need affirmative action to make a decent living. Fuck that! Kids don't need social engineering to learn how to be decent people they need stable families and good parents. That's why asians do so well in school, it's because their parents take the time to make sure their children care about their education, can constrcut a sentence, write legibly and do algebra.

I say we need to stop the Democrats from continuing this unfair social segregation!
American living for everyone!!!
Freedom!!!!

>>195
I have to agree on just about everything. 

>>189

It really doesn't matter to me what stats you drum up. My personal bottomline is the economic and social racial disparity in this country. Until you type something that addresses or responds to it then we aren't even on the same page to begin with.

Your basic premise here is "Let the stupid, lazy, unambitious niggers starve." which is implied by your idiotic belief that in a country with a sorted history of slavery and racism and Jim Crow and "Around Black Never Relax" and "Gooks!" and "Dirty Spics!" that everything "Whites" have-- they have earned because of their meritability (as a race?).

You have no plan, no agenda, no policy and no solution for the racial disparity and instead continue to trump up these vague notions of "civil rights enforcement" when your stupid asses clearly don't have an iota of a fucking clue what that even means. If mere "civil rights enforcement" was actually worth a damn there would be absolutely NO need for AA in the first damn place.
 
>>191

This is a lie, though, to begin with. But in realistic terms; you and your mother are probably doing just fine and that black lady would've probably ended up not being able to send her kids to college or put clothes on their back.

Do you understand the fundamental difference here? Let's say the black applicant isn't meritable--- what is the real choice here? Give a job to someone so they can have a productive family and pull themselves out of their racial social caste--- or give it to someone who, for all normal purposes, is probably going to be alright because they got into a nice white college and was supported by white society long enough to earn a PHD! Your mom will be fine.

With that said, why should I give a fuck about you, your mom, even your race when you're so ready to write people of other races and creed off as delusional victims?

>>197
You're entire argument is based around putting words in other people's mouths. You are a typical extremist. I don't know how you can equate meritocracy with racism if it has been expressly stated that people should be judged by their qualifications and skill at a profession and that race is an irrelevant demographic with no bearing on either by those who oppose affirmative action. That's just fucking crazy. It is obvious there is something up your ass.

I will accept discussions on inheritance and how children typically from poorer immigrant families in crime ridden communities don't get the best parents in the world, but you've worn out the "YOU'RE A RACIST BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH ME" bullshit so I'm not going to bother responding to that anymore.

"Give a job to someone so they can have a productive family and pull themselves out of their racial social caste--- or give it to someone who, for all normal purposes, is probably going to be alright because they got into a nice white college and was supported by white society long enough to earn a PHD!"
Why do you immediately assume that because his mother is white she is rich and doesn't need a job? Racist.

>>197
"This is a lie, though, to begin with. But in realistic terms; you and your mother are probably doing just fine and that black lady would've probably ended up not being able to send her kids to college or put clothes on their back.

Do you understand the fundamental difference here? Let's say the black applicant isn't meritable--- what is the real choice here?"

The choice is a meritable candidate vs. a less meritable candidate.  The meritable candidate should win.  There should be no affirmative action type programs geared toward forcing the employer to hire someone based on race rather than merit.  Likewise, the government should be colorblind as well - there should be no consideration of race whatsoever when considering job applicants.  The only thing that should be considered is compatibility/merit for the job you are applying for.  Race is irrelevant.  The employer likely doesn't, nor should he give a fuck what race you are, whether it is black, white, yellow, brown, blue, or whatever the fuck else.  MERIT/COMPATIBILITY, and nothing else, are what should be considered in EVERY or as many as possible situations for job hiring..  Affirmative action programs are in direct opposition to these principles.

"Give a job to someone so they can have a productive family and pull themselves out of their racial social caste--- or give it to someone who, for all normal purposes, is probably going to be alright because they got into a nice white college and was supported by white society long enough to earn a PHD! Your mom will be fine."

The issue is not whether or not to 'give' something to someone, the employer needs someone capable of doing said work, or maybe just wants someone, and THAT, and the person's ABILITY/MERIT/COMPATIBILITY with the position is ALL THAT MATTERS.  I don't give a fuck how much they 'need' the job or not - that isn't what matters.  Employers don't offer jobs to people because they 'need' them, employers offer jobs to people because the employer wants someone to fill a position & do work, and that's all there is to it.  Nothing whatsoever matters but ability, qualification, compatibility, merit, whatever the fuck you want to call it, that is necessary to work for the given employer.  Race or need don't mean shit, nor should they.

>>197
"It really doesn't matter to me what stats you drum up."

Well if your argument isn't rooted in fact & logic, why the fuck should anyone listen to you? Go fuck yourself.

"My personal bottomline is the economic and social racial disparity in this country. Until you type something that addresses or responds to it then we aren't even on the same page to begin with."

Nothing matters to me but qualification/compatibility/merit for the position.  I don't care what race the person is from, and this is what matters to me.  This is MY personal bottom line.

"that everything "Whites" have-- they have earned because of their meritability (as a race?)."

I don't even view 'white people' as a group like you seem to.  I look at people on an individual basis.  The very notion of affirmative action is rooted in the same kind of primeval racist collectivism that you are espousing here.  That kind of racial collectivism really has no place in any good society.

"If mere "civil rights enforcement" was actually worth a damn there would be absolutely NO need for AA in the first damn place."

And there ISN'T a need for affirmative action 'in the first damn place.'  Judging people by merit & qualification is what is 'needed.'