Holocaust denial

I have been reading a lot of stuff recently, some of which has disturbed me.  There are a lot of people out there who say the Holocaust, that horrible time in history they taught us about in school never really happened the way they say it did. 

They cite how there's no way camps like auschewits(sp?) had the capacity to eliminate as many people as they said were held there.  They talk about how zyklon-b wasn't really powerful enough to kill anyone, and those showers apparently outfitted with this chemical were actually used for a delousing procedure.  They talk about how it doesn't make any sense to trick people into going to their death when you've already got them in your custody.

I don't know man; holocaust deniers seem to have information to back them up, all kinds of evidence, to which the holocaust sympathizers only have name calling and questioning the motives of those who deny it.  I am someone who really would like to believe that the holocaust happened, if only so that I can believe there isn't a vast conspiracy behind it.  So, any holocaust sympathizers with a good rebuttal to what they're saying?

history is written by the victors, facts only get in the way.  unless you were actually there, you have no choice but to trust someone else's word for it one way or the other.

since holocaust sympathizers are much more numerous than holocaust deniers, you should just believe the sympathizers.  less chance of being ostracized.

We know it happened becuase there are photos of human reamins burned up in giant ovens, and of mass graves of rotting corpses, and photos of people (still living who were starved down to 60lbs, and becuase people who were there, INCLUDING people who were german, people who were going to be tried or ostricised for life for being part of it, say it happened. There was an article in the Washington Post magazine a few weeks ago where they were talking to a Female SS oficer who worked in a womans camp, who, even as she was trying to defend herself by saying she never hit or kicked the prisoners, admited that she stood back while people were mauled to death by dogs, and could smell burning human flesh if she opened the windows in her home.

Quote from somewhere else:

Actually the 'Holocaust' has been inquired into by many people. They all go to jail or get death threats though, so many don't speak out. I think that the Holohoax was a hoax. Intellectually, I'm curious if it was not only a way for the Jews to punish the Germans but also to scam the world out of billions (which they have) and a piece of land owned rightfully by another people.

My degree is in history. I wouldn't ever dare say anything. I'm under threat of losing my job,being hounded socially, and/or being killed.

The actual numbers of 'holocaust truthseekers/revionists/"Deniers"/whatever' are actually pretty high and the only ones that would even attempt it are people whose area of expertise is history. There are actually quite a few public ones, but you never hear about them because the media keeps a lid on them. The media is not objective.

http://pubweb.northwestern.edu/~abutz/
http://www.revisionists.com/
http://www.ihr.org/
http://www.zundelsite.org/
http://germarrudolf.com/
http://www.fpp.co.uk/
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/Giant/
http://www.vho.org/

What atleast three people are in jail for 'holocaust denial' in Europe. An Israeli/Jewish(duh) lawyer wants to put the head-honcho of Iran in jail for 'Holocaust denial.' Let's see...
There was also this one guy in France that published something indirectly critical of the six million myth (historian with degree,) they came into his house without warning, arrested him temporarily, searched his house, and burned his papers. They told him that if he published any more 'holocaust denial' he would spend several years in jail, minimum sentence.

There are all sorts of stories like this.

Who cares if it was 5.6 million of 400 thousand or forty thousand or four thousand?  It happened in some amount.

Quote from somewhere else with minor changes:

Look, I always love how people just run around in circles talking about tertiary issues like survivor stories (people can lie, and they lie even better when you can get 1 million for being a 'holocaust survivor!' No joke, look at how much these people were actually PAID.) as if they were some form of refutation to:

(I'm too lazy to resort the numbers)

2. If the Jewish population was 1/2th'd or 1/3ed'd (I forget which) then why in the hell did their population go up during WWII? That's alotta babies!

(Note: According to some sources, the Jewish population did go up. However, you can get a better idea of the real problem with the population analysis by reading this book.
http://vho.org/dl/ENG/Hoax.pdf
)

3. Why did the 'anti-semetic' organization of the !Red Cross! give the German concentration camps their seal of approval? (They inspected the camps.)

4. Why wasn't there any testimony /not under TORTURE and threats to kill family members/ that there were concentration camps?

5. The Germans were always fastitious in keeping records. How come these things weren't recorded.

6. Why were there only around 300,000-400,000 people detained in concentration camps on record (including criminals, traitors, gypsies, Jews, and other people the National Socialists didn't approve of) if six MILLION were killed? The Germans kept records of EVERYTHING.

7. How precisely did the Germans manage to cremate six million people. People who specialize in cremation have said this was patently impossible. The ashes of six million people would be VISIBLE FROM SPACE. The ironic thing I keep on thinking of is that when you look at all these concentration camps, and think to yourself... 6,000,000? These camps would have trouble with a couple of thousand...

8. Zyklon B was used as a delousing agent. It's known that the Germans wrote plenty of letters talking about how to increase the quality of life for the people in concentration camps (not Jews specifically but indirectly.) I guess that's why they built swimming pools, orchestras, and soccor fields for the people in the concentration camps. Why go to all that trouble if you're just going to kill people?

9.Zyklon B sucks at killing people. It's like trying to kill somebody by putting them in a bathroom you just bleached. Yes, the National Socialists somehow managed to kill six million people using something about as deadly as smelling bleach. The only reason why Zyklon B would even be suggested, as ludiocrous as it is, would be because the National Socialists didn't keep any truly lethal hazardous gases around. Yes, six million Jews were fumigated to death. (Rolls eyes) Beyond ridiculous. The Nazis must have also poisoned them with salt in the hopes that they would grow diamond bunions! Just come up with something ridiculous and easily proven to be untrue! If it's about the holocaust, you can get sent to jail for doubting it in Europe and the truth is not a defense.

10. If the National Socialists wanted to kill people, by God they could kill people. A tiny European nation taking on the rest of Europe, Russia, and the United States proves that beyond a doubt. The Germans could kick serious ass and were definately hardcore. So, why in the Hell, didn't they just go ahead and dig pits like Stalin and just shoot people while in the pits. The Germans were very efficiency minded people. They didn't have a lot to waste in the first place. Why not just shoot the Jews and reuse the casings? Why do some crazy evil genius type plan? Shower heads? With Gas? It goes totally against every single National Socialist ideal. If the National Socialists wanted you dead, they'd shoot you in the head. Quick and efficient. No bullshit. They'd also shoot you somewhere so the mess would be easy to clean up. In short, no silly underhanded plans from these guys. That's too 'Jewish' for a National Socialist.

11. The first 'holocaust' storied were something around 40 million Jews, or some ridiculous number like that. Over time, the numbers decreased. The first stories were of things like electro-shock chambers and other ridiculous ideas. Over time, the stories that were just totally unbelievable lies managed to get weeded out. Eventually, after people actually genetically tested them, the soap and the lamp shade stories (the lie is that they made out of Jews) were proven false using modern technology. No human skin or fat. Ironically, the German soap that was tested was actually without fat if I remember correctly, a rather cheaply made soap because the Germans had shortages of everything, even fuel (V2 rockets were made with ethanol if my memory serves correctly. The one thing the Germans had an endless supply of was practical genius.)

12. It goes against the National Socialist modus operandi. Look, if somebody suggested the systematic extermination of somebody, then guess what a National Socialist would say to you, "That sounds like something a Jew would do." They took this thing very seriously. National Socialists are sort of like the modern day and practical extension of those guys that sat in ranks and agreed to shoot each other. They were VERY concerned with honor, dignity, and fair play. They screwed over the Jews, but that's because the Jews screwed over them, or so their story goes. Some things they simply wouldn't have done, because they would have considered them Jewish. Let me point out to you that many Jewish holidays celebrate the Jewish slaughter of their enemies, and the old testament has a couple of stories of Jews gleefully slaughtering entire peoples, sisters, brothers, mothers, fathers, and even LIVESTOCK. The Jews are quite ethnocentric and you don't survive as a collective in alien environments by being nice. A National Socialist would tell you straight up that they didn't like Jews, although not all of them were bad, but wiping out all of them would be Jewish ideal and not German. Hitler talked about setting up a place for Jews in Madagascar.

13. No gas chambers. No prussian blue staining. Killing six million people with gas leaves physical traces. HUGE physical traces. Remember, the ashes of six million Jews would be visible from SPACE. The Germans didn't have enough time to crematories to cremate six million Jews. Even with today's technology, they wouldn't have been able to cremate six million Jews in such a small space. Crematoriums have to be cleaned and prepared; you can only cremate so many people a day.

14. Where are the documents on how to use and activate gas chambers? When did the scientists meet to discuss the most efficient and safe methods? Real gas chambers include extremely detailed procedures because the poison gas that REAL gas chambers use is dangerous (unlike Zyklon B which a third of the population of Europe probably had on its clothes and furniture.)
In real gas chambers, people shake hair to get out traces of deadly gas, strap down the judged, and lock them inside a steel airtight room, not inside a brick house with a wooden door and an opening to the crematorium especially if the gas is explosive (and Zyklon B is. Holocaust mythologicians state that this was deemed feasible because the concentration of Zyklon B would have been low enough to not cause explosions. BS. You don't use explosive gas right next to an incinerator. When they were making up the story they should have considered a better place for the gas chamber, instead of trying to cover up such a silly lie. One slip up and half the camp explodes. Minor explosions on a daily basis. BS.)

15. Auschwitz. Number killed at one stage, 4 mil. Changed the sign to like 2mil. Then to 1.5 mil. Then to 1mil. I think they recently changed it or are thinking about changing it to 800 something thousand. Why the change? A colleague of mine once made a joke that Jewish math goes something like this:
 6,000,000
-6,000,000
-----------
 6,000,000

Some things are funny because they're true.

Look, I could come up with detractions from the six million myth all day. There are so many proofs, undeniable proofs, against the six million myth or the systematic killing myth that I can't even LIST them all from memory (and I've done a lot of research in this area.)

Quite frankly, in open debate with openminded people, the holohoax is dead. The holocaust mythologicians are clutching at straws. They have problems even proving that it COULD have happened. Once we get past the COULD have happened, then maybe we'll think about if it DID. As things stand, it looks like the holocaust both COULDN'T have happened and DIDN'T happen.

The Germans mistreated some people in the concentration camps, but they didn't systematically murder anybody. They probably treated the concentration camp members better than the Japanese were treated in the US during their internment, and for a longer time. I'm an American and I have no problems saying this, the truth is the truth. Case closed.

There are also the german medical books which detail procedures done to jewish prisoners, such as atmosphere deprevation, limb  and organ replacement surgery, experimental drug use, and exposure experiments (exposing them to high amounts of ultraviolet light, freezing temperatures, excessive contact with electricity, long term contact with various corrosive compounds.)   I mean, there are thousands of journals which show that and more with suprisingly minute detail.

Continued:

Make sure that they are 'counters' and not misdirections. I'm tired of Holocaust mythologitians of not actually tackling the issue of PROVING that six million people died, but rather saying... "Oh look, here is a picture of somebody starving that means that the nazis killed six million people."

No, it doesn't. Especially if such an act as the holohoax would have required the nazis to call upon molech or something in order to get the power to bend the laws of nature.

Holocaust=Religion
It even has its own inquisition! Look at all the people jailed, or being tried under holocaust 'denial' laws like Nick Griffin.

Also, be sure that the proof cited by the people trying to further the existence of the holocaust lie are proving that six million died, not that Jews died at the hands of Germans. Jews did die in concentration camps, but a systematic extermination is a far cry from typhus (which they tried to keep down using ironically Zyklon B) or starvation (which was endemic in Germany at the end of the war.)

In other words, if a Jew dies in Germany, that does not prove the holocaust.
                                                                Jews dying != Holocaust                                                         Holocaust=systematic extermination of Jews in a rather ridiculous way.                                                                                                                                                                        

Furthermore, the logical structure of the argument that holocaust mythologicians use is thus:                                                                                                                           If Jews were systematically exterminated Jews died.               Jews died.
Therefore:
Jews were systematically exterminated.                                                                                                                        


This follows the logical form of:                                                                                                                             
A->B
B
-----
A

This is a logical fallacy known as affirming the consequent.

If Jews were systematically killed, of course they were killed. However, Jews dying does not mean they were systematically killed. People die for all sorts of reasons, there is no bidirectionality of death being linked to death by systematic extermination. That would mean that, for instance, because my grandmother died she died by systematic extermination in Germany. This is patently untrue and ridiculous. She died from  disease in another country entirely.

>>7

provide a source. I'm into history. I'd like to see this.

1. I went through a couple of different sites and actually examined some of the photos.
First of all, the medical experiment photos showed starving children. It's a well known fact that many holocaust photos have had to be retracted because they have been proven to be fakes.

Shoes-> Shoes were actually pretty close to that Zyklon B gas! Zyklon B was used to fumigate clothing and furniture. In Auschwitz they actually had an area that was used to fumigate clothing to keep down deaths (which was one thing that the managers were afraid of... You know, because a Jew is only allowed to die by 'de gassings!,' any other dying is forbodden! Err... Wait.. That doesn't make sense... Oh well, holocaust logic DOESN'T make sense.)

glasses-> shows a pile of victims. Upon closer examination, shows a pile of GLASSES. The picture is blown up, but if the size of the glasses are any indicator, the pile of 'victims' is actually very small, and looks to be a pile of eyeglasses.

belsen->Starvation and disease. No gas chambers.
Quote:
So, it was the newsreels of the liberation of Belsen that brought home to the British public the existence of gas chambers and the Nazi extermination camps and the reality of Hitler's "Final Solution."

Well, no, actually. According to Jo Reilly, it was more the case that reports of the liberation confused the public's understanding of all these points. Belsen had no gas chambers and was not an extermination camp.

Belsen prisoners- If anything, it had been one of the less brutalised camps, since one of its purposes had been to hold some prominent Jews for exchange with interned Germans.
..........

Showing a picture of 30 people in a mass grave does not six million make.


Some of the pictures and the sources are so ludicrous that I didn't even bother with them. The picture of a 'nazi terrorizing a Jew' shows the 'nazi' with his foot slightly raised and obscured by what is supposed to be the 'Jew'. It shows three people laughing around him. All three people are a great distance away from him. They don't look like the street gangbangers that get real close and crowd and start kicking people. The closest one has his Considering that you usually don't beat people with the inside of your foot, and the soldier looks like he has his hand extended, it looks more like to me that he's about to help the guy stand up.


The pictures I say say they told the story of the holocaust, but it looks more like to me that you are TOLD a story about those pictures. The pictures are mildly suggestive or emotional at best. They don't prove the holocaust. Someone with a more keen observation would probably be able to find more flaws and contradictions than me.

And I haven't even done in searches on sites showing that certain pictures are actually pictures of soviets and THEIR mass graves. A great many holocaust 'photos' have also been proven to be fakes. Here's a quick example. You can search several sites for more.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/fake/SWCsmokeFake.html

Here is another one:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/fake/USHMMDachauFake.html

Watch Auschwitz: The Forgotten Evidence on The History Channel.  The Nazis used bullets when their furnaces were too crowded.

A gas chamber door doesn't have to be air tight.  You can let toxic fumes leak out of it and it will be too dispersed to affect anyone on the outside.

I believe people were detained, and people were cremated alive, but not all people that were detained were cremated.  In other words, 6 million people detained but not 6 million people killed.  The detained consisted of communists, gypsies, homosexuals, and others, not just Jews.  So saying there were several million "victims" is correct if you count every person placed in a concentration camp including non-Jews. 

The actual number is nothing more than an estimate, which is probably rounded up from 5.5 or 5.6 million, just like the WTC victims were rounded up to 5,000 get a more devastating bodycount than the actual number. 

>>11

.....
Here's why this is a totally unbalanced statement.

There are no six million bodies. There isn't even six million people's worth of ash.

Bullets are a way of killing, not of disposing of bodies. Crematoriums and bullets have nothing in common. The alternate method is BURYING.

I'm sorry. For some reason I think that the story of nazis shooting dead bodies instead of burying them when the crematoriums got too full is a little silly.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Auschw120842.html

quote:
This document refers to an incident where an SS man named Theuer was almost killed by accidentally inhaling some gas fumes from Zyklon B after an overnight fumigation. That some of the gas was caught in a few "pockets" is not unusual in areas treated by Zyklon. The incident was examined at length during the Auschwitz Trial by the former head of disinfestation and fumigation at Auschwitz, Artur Breitweiser. He was declared innocent of any crimes by the court.

It was published by Jean Claude Pressac in his Auschwitz: Operation and Technique of the Gas Chambers. At page 188, Pressac writes:

    "This text, which previously appeared to be damning proof of the existence of homocidal gas chambers can no longer be accepted as such."

As Pressac noted, 42 copies of the document were made; therefore it was not at all secret. The document clearly is dealing with fumigations and delousing. Exterminationists stay clear of this document these days because it directly contradicts their claims of "twenty-minute gassings".

--------------

In order to be killed by Zyklon B, you have to be exposed to it for a fairly long time at a high concentration. Otherwise, it just makes you really sick. It also kills very slowly. It was an insecticide used throughout Europe for delousing.

There were far more deadly and cheaper gasses available for killing human beings, although I doubt that the National Socialists were particularly big on accidently killing themselves by not using a sealed area with properly controlled ventilation for one of the gasses actually designed to kill humans.

Another thing few people ever bring up that people have been posting on here. Above the Aushwitz enterance (or one concentration camp) there are the words arbeit macht frei, which means "Work makes you free." Jewish labor was a huge boon to the nazis. The nazis provided the inmates with medical care, dentistry, soccer fields, an ochestra building, and a swimming pool and they regularly fumigated for typhus which was carried by lice. They worried about keeping the Jews alive because the JEWS WERE MAKING THEM MONEY. The concentration camp labor was USEFUL. They wanted MORE laborers, NOT FEWER.

The people for the holocaust don't even mention this. It flies in the face of logic and common sense.

Quote:
    According to the holocaust legend, Jewish prisoners who arrived at Auschwitz between the spring of 1942 and the fall of 1944, and who were not able to work, were immediately put to death and that no records were kept of such deaths (even though all other deaths where recorded in detail)......

The Diminishing Numbers of
Alleged Dead in Auschwitz

9,000,000
Source: Cited by the French documentary, Night and Fog, which has been shown to millions of school students worldwide.

8,000,000
Source: The French War Crime Research Office, Doc. 31, 1945.

7,000,000
Source: Also cited by the French War Crime Research Office.

6,000,000
Source: Cited in the book Auschwitz Doctor by Miklos Nyiszli. It has since been proven that this book is a fraud and the "doctor" was never even at Auschwitz, even though the book is often cited by historians.

5,000,000 to 5,500,000
Source: Cited in 1945 at the trial of Auschwitz commander Rudolf Höss, based on his confession which was written in English, a language he never spoke.

5,000,000
Source: Cited on April 20, 1978 by the French daily, Le Monde. Also cited on January 23, 1995 by the German daily Die Welt. By September 1, 1989, Le Monde reduced the figure to 1,433,000.

4,500,000
Source: In 1945 this figure was cited by another witness at the aforementioned Höss trial.

4,000,000
Source: Cited by a Soviet document of May 6, 1945 and officially acknowledged by the Nuremberg War Crimes trial. This figure was also reported in The New York Times on April 18, 1945, although 50 years later on January 26, 1995, The New York Times and The Washington Post slashed the figure to 1,500,000 citing new findings by the Auschwitz Museum officials. In fact, the figure of 4,000,000 was later repudiated by the Auschwitz museum officials in 1990 but the figure of 1,500,000 victims was not formally announced by Polish President Lech Walesa until five years after the Auschwitz historians had first announced their discovery.

3,500,000
Source: Cited in the 1991 edition of the Dictionary of the French Language and by Claude Lanzmann in 1980 in his introduction to Filip Muller's book, Three Years in an Auschwitz Gas Chamber.

3,000,000
Source: Cited in a forced confession by Rudolf Höss, the Auschwitz commander who said this was the number of those who had died at Auschwitz prior to Dec. 1, 1943. Later cited in the June 7, 1993 issue of Heritage, the most widely read Jewish newspaper in California, even though three years previously the authorities at the Auschwitz museum had scaled down the figure to a minimum of 1,100,000 and a maximum of 1,500,000. (see below).

2,500,000
Source: Cited by Rudolf Vrba (an author of various fraudulent accounts of events he claims to have witnessed at Auschwitz) when he testified on July 16, 1981 for the Israeli government's war crimes trial of former SS official Adolf Eichmann.

2,000,000
Source: Cited by Leon Poliakov (1951) writing in Harvest of Hate; Georges Wellers, writing in 1973 in The Yellow Star at the Time of Vichy; and Lucy Dawidowicz, writing in 1975 in The War Against the Jews.

2,000,000 to 4,000,000

Source: Cited by Yehuda Bauer in 1982 in his book, A History of the Holocaust. However, by 1989 Bauer revised his figure to 1,600,000.

1,600,000
Source: This is a 1989 revision by Yehuda Bauer of his earlier figure in 1982 of 2,000,000 to 4,000,000, Bauer cited this new figure on September 22, 1989 in The Jerusalem Post, at which time he wrote "The larger figures have been dismissed for years, except that it hasn't reached the public yet."

1,500,000
Source: In 1995 this was the number of Auschwitz deaths announced by Polish President Lech Walesa as determined by those at the Auschwitz museum. This number was inscribed on the monument at the Auschwitz camp at that time, thereby "replacing" the earlier 4,000,000 figure that had been formally repudiated (and withdrawn from the monument) five years earlier in 1990. At that time, on July 17, 1990 The Washington Times reprinted a brief article from The London Daily Telegraph citing the "new" figure of 1,500,000 that had been determined by the authorities at the Auschwitz museum. This new figure was reported two years later in a UPI report published in the New York Post on March 26, 1992. On January 26, 1995 both The Washington Post and The New York Times cited this 1,500,000 figure as the new "official" figure (citing the Auschwitz Museum authorities).

1,471,595
Source: This is a 1983 figure cited by Georges Wellers who (as noted previously) had determined, writing in 1973, that some 2,000,000 had died.

1,433,000
Source: This figure was cited on September 1, 1989 by the French daily, Le Monde, which earlier, on April 20, 1978, had cited the figure at 4,000,000.

1,250,000
Source: In the book, The Destruction of the European Jews, by Raul Hilberg (1985).

1,100,000 to 1,500,000
Source: Sources for this estimate are Yisrael Gutman and Michael Berenbaum in their 1984 book, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp. This estimate was later also cited by Walter Reich, former director of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, writing in The Washington Post on September 8, 1998. The upper figure of 1,500,000 is (the new) "official" figure as now inscribed at Auschwitz, with the earlier figure of 4,000,000 having been removed from the memorial at the site of the former concentration camp.

1,000,000
Source: Jean-Claude Pressac, writing in his 1989 book Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers. This is interesting since he wrote his book to repudiate so-called "Holocaust deniers" who were called that precisely because they had questioned the numbers of those who had died at Auschwitz.

900,000
Source: Reported on August 3, 1990 11, by Aufbau, a Jewish newspaper in New York.

800,000 to 900,000
Source: Reported by Gerald Reitlinger in his book, The Final Solution.

775,000 to 800,000
Source: Jean-Claude Pressac's revised figure, put forth in his 1993 book, The Crematoria of Auschwitz: The Mass Murder's Machinery, scaling down his earlier claim of 1,000,000 dead.

630,000 to 710,000
Source: In 1994 Pressac scaled his figure down somewhat further; this is the figure cited in the German language translation of Pressac's 1993 book originally published in French. Again, this is substantially less than Pressac's 1989 figure of 1,000,000.

135,000 to 140,000
Source: This is an estimate based on documents held by the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross. It is known that International Tracing Service has a complete set of registration documents. This is thought to include a complete set of roll-call data which includes twice daily tallies of those who died. Although the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross has such records, they have never officially published an accurate count of those who died, or even an accurate report as to exactly which documents they hold. However, totals from these records have been obtained by various interested parties.

The estimate of 135,000 is roughly corroborated by the "Auschwitz death books." The death books themselves are wartime German camp records, which were captured by the Soviets towards the end of the war, and hidden in Soviet achieves, until released to the Red Cross in 1989.

The death books consist of 46 volumes which document each death at Auschwitz (each death certificate consists of the deceased person's full name, profession and religion, date and place of birth, pre-Auschwitz residence, parents' names, time of death, and cause of death as determined by a camp physician). The records for the most important years, 1942 and 1943, are almost complete (there are also a few volumes for the year 1941, but none for the year 1944 or January 1945 (when Auschwitz was evacuated)).

The Auschwitz death books contain the death certificates of some 69,000 individuals, of whom about 30,000 were listed as Jews. You may view various entries in the Auschwitz Death Books by clicking on the following links to the Auschwitz museum:
About the Auschwitz Death Books
Searching the Auschwitz Death Books
Using all available wartime records from the various camps it has been estimated that between 400,000 and 500,000 people died in the German concentration camp system (from all causes).
The above mentioned, ever declining numbers of alleged dead at Auschwitz, are graphically illustrated by the following pictures of plaques from the camp.
The first is the plaque that was on display at the Auschwitz camp from 1948 until 1989 (note the "4 million" victims).
The second is the plaque currently on display at Auschwitz.
Note the dramatically reduced number of victims, now only 1.5 million.
A casual reduction in the number of deaths by some 2.5 million.
Deaths at Auschwitz drop by a whopping 2.5 million, but 6,000,000 dead Jews, remains the same.

Some entries from the Auschwitz death books.
According to the holocaust legend, Jewish prisoners who arrived at Auschwitz between the spring of 1942 and the fall of 1944, and who were not able to work, were immediately put to death and that no records were kept of such deaths (even though all other deaths where recorded in detail).

German journalist and researcher Wolfgang Kempkens, obtained copies of some 800 of the death certificates from sources in Poland and Russia. Reproductions of 30 of these certificates appeared in the article "Pages From The Auschwitz Death Registry Volumes" by Mark Weber, Journal of Historical Review vol 12 p 265.

We provide the following selection from the 30, to show that the old and weak appear among the death certificates of the Auschwitz death books, proving that the claim that "all who were not able to work, were immediately put to death" is false.

Josef Hoffmann, a Jewish butcher, was 89 years old when he died of "old age" on June 22, 1942.

Abraham Stieber, a Jewish salesman from Slovakia, was 79 years old when he died on July 2, 1942, of "old age."

Chaim Richter, a Jewish salesman, was 81 years old when he died in Auschwitz on March 1, 1942, of "weakness of old age."

Josephine Kohn, a Jewish inmate born in Hungary who had been living in Leipzig, was 69 years old when she died on February 10, 1943. Auschwitz camp physician Dr. Kitt reported "weakness of old age" as the cause of death.

Emil Kaufmann, a Jewish attorney deported from Germany, was 78 years old when he died of "old age" on February 15, 1943. "Weakness of old age" is given as the cause of death.

Julius Sonnenberg, a salesman from Germany, was 65 years old when he died on February 27, 1943, of "angina pectoris." His religion is cited as "non-believing, formerly Jewish."

Abraham Blok, a Jewish butcher from the Netherlands, was 70 years old when he died of "old age" on March 6, 1943.

Jettchen Fuld, a Jewish inmate, was 67 years old when she died on October 10, 1942. Old age and physical weakness is given as the cause of death.

Salomon Serlui, a Jewish laborer from the Netherlands, was 67 years old when he died in Auschwitz on October 16, 1942. Camp physician Dr. Kremer reported a stomach ulcer as the cause of death.

Renö Hirschfeld, a Jewish tailor born in Berlin in 1878, was 64 years old when he died on November 2, 1942. Camp physician Dr. Kitt reported "weakness of old age" as the cause of death.

Armin Horn, a Jewish salesman deported to the camp from Slovakia, died on August 19, 1942, at the age of 70. Camp physician Dr. Thilo recorded the cause of death as "accumulation of fluid in the intestine and weakness of old age."

This Auschwitz camp death certificate reports that prisoner Josef Buck, a Jewish teacher from Kattowitz, was 65 years old when he died on August 1, 1941. "Weakness of old age" is given as the cause of death.

Josek Nisenkorn, a Jewish laborer, was 71 years old when he died in Auschwitz on August 11, 1941. "Weakness of old age" is given as the cause of death by camp physician Dr. Siegfried Schwela, who himself later died of typhus.

Samuel Mandel, a Jewish tailor, was 74 years old when he died in Auschwitz on March 26, 1942. Physician Dr. Entress reported the cause of death as "influenza with heart failure."

Ernestine Hochfelder, a Jewish inmate who had been deported to the camp from Slovakia, was 70 years old when she died in Auschwitz on June 4, 1942. "Physical weakness and old age" is cited as the cause of death.

David Reichman, a Jewish farmer, was 70 years old when he died on July 22, 1942, of "old age."

This selection has been chosen to illustrate that the old and weak where not "immediately gassed" as is often claimed, and to point out that according to the death records, many died of old age.

OK, so we've got that the holocaust might not have happened the way we thought it did...  So, why is it that this is going on?  Why create such an immense and detailed conspiracy?  To what end is this being done?

>>19
For the founding and financing of Isreal. Not only did they get their own nation (for free!) but the US has been footing their bills for at least 60 years!

>>16

Source? 

Most of them were not fit to work, but were still kept in concentration camps, especially females, elderly, young, and the weak/malnourished.  Only a small number were in actual labor, which was mostly construction of new buildings, and even that wasn't a great benefit to Germany during the war.  Jews were told they would be forced to work in labor camps, but most were not made to work because they were unfit.  Any benefit to Germany was negligible.

Money, freedom from criticism, social privilege, revenge, and the state of Israel.

That's what the holocaust is all about.

1. Criticizing Jews means you are a nazithatwantstokillsixmillionjews, i.e. an antisemite. Nobody questions why the English carved out a place in the middle east for the Jews via mandate. People were terrified of the Jews power before, but Jews could be criticized in private and that might lead to their eventual expulsion. With the use of the

The holocaust protects Jews from the fact that they are usually the ones that piss on people until those people get incredibly pissed off and kick them out of their country. There are reasons why Jews do this, over and over again, and it has to do with their culture and heritage. Some Jews have, quite unsuccessfully, tried to stop it or slow it down.

Read the Talmud:

http://www.come-and-hear.com/

Ever hear of the USS liberty?:

http://www.ussliberty.org/

How many people in the US question of why in the living daylights are we in the middle east taking over and occupying countries. Our internal security would be better handled if we decreased immigration, which is in the millions.
http://nowarforisrael.com/



2. Money.  I remember one site bragging about how it had gotten
50 billion dollars for 1.5 million people and about half of that for Israel.

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
=========

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact
Summary

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
    Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240
==========

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/reparations/
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p243_Weber.html/

3. Social Privilege- Free money. Free from criticism. Handled gently everywhere. Free from suspicion. Government will send your religious country money if you ask, and if you raise hell all you've got to do is mention 'holocaust' and everybody will be groveling. Also, people actually believe the 'oh woe is me, the world hates the jews. Everybody is evil, and the world needs to be changed for the good of the jews. Everybody is to blame except for the jews. Oh woe is me!' (Sorry, I've listened to Aish.com until I got sick.)

4. Revenge - World Jewry declared war on Germany. They cut off trade and tried to get every country on Earth to go to war with Germany. For the most part, they succeeded. For humiliating them, the Jews pretty darn well hate the National Socialists, and really the Germans too. Elie Wiesel wrote his original Night in Yiddish. It was a huge book and it was full of hatred for the Germans, even though it was admittedly a piece of fiction. When Night was translated to English, much of the hatred for the Germans was taken out, although some choice pieces such as something like 'Every Jew should reserve a place in their heart for hating the Germans' or something like that were kept. I have a copy of Night lying around somewhere, so I'm sure I can find the exact phrase eventually.

Remember, Judaism is an eye for an eye. Jews are not lovy-dovy like Christians.

5. Israel has nukes. Israel has tons of donated money from Western Civilization. Israel exists when it didn't less than a century ago. There are plenty of stories of Israelis mistreating Palestinians, yet people are going on about people desperate enough to blow themselves to pieces in the desperate hope of maybe doing some damage to the invaders. Right now, the US is pining for war with Iran. Why? Not really much of a good reason, the US is clutching for straws. They don't really need one. War with Iran is good for Israel. After all, the area called palestine is actually southern Syria.

The USS liberty isn't mentioned. Foreign aid to Israel 50 years after the holohoax isn't mentioned. The United Nations has instituted an international holocaust day of morning in January. A Jewish history month is coming supposedly. A couple of people from havard that recently said that Israel controls the US foreign policy using money interest, i.e. AIPAC, isn't mentioned. A couple of harvard professors are attacked viciously for this paper. It's true, but the truth isn't any defense for 'anti-semites' (defined as anyone who opposes the Jews... Now how twisted a definition is that?)

Lord, the list goes on and on and on...

>>21


http//ww/...

I see nothing about "medical care, dentistry, soccer fields, an ochestra building, and a swimming pool"

>>24

The swimming pool at Auschwitz by Robert Faurisson
http://www.rense.com/general24/controversy.htm

I think David Cole (a Jew) shows the swimming pool and perhaps points out the ochestra in this, although some people have edited these tapes to stuff only pertaining directly to the holocaust. I haven't downloaded this one yet.
http://vho.org/dl/ENG/DavidColeatAuschwitz.wmv

health care at Auschwitz
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n3p-4_Weber.html

health camp mentioned
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p-67_Weber.html

This talks and shows an open-air ochestra, but I think that there was a closed in building for doing plays and musicals as well..
http://www.cympm.com/orkest.html


There was a memo from somebody at one of the (Auschwitz I think) concentration camps worrying about the high rate of casualties due to unsanitary living conditions. I've been looking for it, but I can't find it. If I find it later, I'll see about posting it.

So now it's Club Med according to your description.  Nazis didn't treat Jews harshly, they didn't beat or kill anyone, they didn't mock Jews or treat them like filth. 

Of course they were deloused and rid of typhoid.  Why would you want anything communicable in a concentrated group of people, especially when it can spread to your officers?  It doesn't mean they were trying to extend detainees' lifespans or give them luxury.  

"One Louse, Your Death!" This bilingual (German-Polish) poster graphically warned Auschwitz inmates of the danger of typhus bearing lice. (p. 54)

>>26

I never said that the concentration camps were THAT nice. They were better than the ones in the US, but they were still forced labor camps. They were labor camps after all, for:

1. Criminals
2. People against the state
3. Non-citizens (i.e. non-germans or people not native to the occupied area)

Look, nobody doubts that nazis killed Jews. Nobody doubts that Jews were mistreated. Japanese were mistreated in the US. The Jews declared war on Germany.

http//www.w/...


As for the spreading of lice, why care when you are just going to kill them? Fire kills lice rather well. You don't have to spend hundreds of man hours delousing their clothes and furniture. You don't have to buy fumigant for cleaning their clothes. In fact, if you were being really cost-concious you could just make mass graves and then shoot people and reuse the casings. The National Socialist Germany went through periods of starvation, lack of resources from fuel to everything else, and labor shortages. Germany was a small country against practically THE ENTIRE WESTERN WORLD, and some other non-western countries as well. U.S., the soviet union, they couldn't afford to waste resources and that included Jews. Heck, V2 rockets were made using ethanol because fuel wasn't readily available. The infamous brownshirts of the National Socialists were army surplus Hitler, ironically, bought from a Jew.

I don't think that Jews were treated like filth generally by the Nazis. I think that some were, and I also think that they were punished in most of those cases. Some of the higher-ups could probably get away with it, but acting like a untermensch was considered bad form in National Socialist Germany. That was generally frowned upon, and they took this sort of thing seriously.

Here are the definitions of national socialist germany from the national socialist german standpoint that are frequently overlooked, and they worked towards this identity in their own definition without fail (and considered the opposite of their ideals to be the Jewish ones.)

1. Honor
2. Dignity
3. Strictness
4. Politeness

I've read quite a few memoirs of Jews, that weren't dripping at the mouth from fear, condemnation, and paranoia at the Germans, remarking on how the Germans were terribly polite. The Germans PRIDED themselves on this. These were the VALUES of their national socialism.  National socialists that didn't act according to these rules were sent to the concentration camps.

According to the racial untermensch and ubermensch theories of the Hitler's NS Germany, Jews couldn't be untermensch or ubermensch. Only white people could be untermensch or ubermensch. I've seen sites all over talking about how hitler considered Jews to be untermensch. This is not true. Jews didn't even FIT into nazi eugenics. NS Germany passed laws banning intermarriage with non-germans but Jews were not considered untermensch. Jews were considered a separate people. NS Germany wanted Germany to be Judenfrei, and that included shipping them somewhere else and keeping them away from the Germany population during the interim.

-------------------
 Nazi Eugenics

The German eugenicist movement was directed primarily against Germans, not Jews. German medical research held that degenerate Whites posed a major threat to German society because of their propensity to greater reproductive levels: in this view, the Nazis were certainly not alone. In 1930, the women's supplement to the Social Democratic Party's newspaper, Vorwaarts, criticized the 1929 Danish sterilization law for not allowing the compulsory sterilization of "inferiors."

In 1931, even the German Communist Party expressed itself in support of sterilization of psychiatric patients under certain conditions. (Racial Hygiene, Medicine under the Nazis, Robert N. Proctor, Harvard University Press, 1988).

As a result of the German Sterilization law, somewhere between 350,000 and 400,000 people had been sterilized in that country by the end of the war in 1945 - none of them Jews and with the only non-Whites being 500 children born of sexual relationships between German women and Black French soldiers who had been used to occupy the Rhineland area after World War One.

Above: Nazi eugenics was primarily concerned with German Whites, not other races. The word "Untermensch" (or sub-man) was actually used to refer to degenerate Whites, not other races. In this illustration from the 1937 publication Volk in Gefahr (A People in Danger), the problem of criminal Whites is addressed so:  "The Threat of the Underman. It looks like this: Male criminals had an average of 4.9 children, criminal marriage, 4.4 children, parents of slow learners, 3.5 children, a German family 2.2 children, and a marriage from the educated circles, 1.9 children."
---------------------

Hey all.  >>1 here.

In the absense of a great ability to do research on my own, I have to analyze the facts that are available to me.  This has lead me to take everything the holocaust deniers have been saying with a whole damn lot of skepticism.

With all this shit that doesn't make sense (6mil bodies should have been visible from space, nevermind the fact that it was all done apart, the argument where you talk about Nazi records, OF FUCKING COURSE there'd be no records that survived, even if they were kept in the first place; when the nazis realized what was going on they would have destroyed them) uncited sources, and just plain hearsay, they've really weakened their argument.

I think that what really destroyed their credibility for me was when the holocaust deniers started trotting out their belief that jews want "revenge," as a people, or that Jews had declared war on Germany.  WTF?  You guys is dumb.

I can now say that the reason I think that there hasn't been a proper rebuttal to all the stuff that's been posted here and elsewhere on the intarweb is because serious historians and intellectuals won't give them the time of day.

I'll just stand by and wait for more people to get suckered into your movement, and then we'll see this shit destroyed in earnest as people start to realize how stupid people can be.

Good day.

Something happenned.

>>28

So, people with PH.Ds in history aren't serious historians?
Why don't you go take a look at the holocaust historians in jail? Why don't you go take a look at Arthur Butz? Some of these guys not only have one doctorate, but MULTIPLE doctorates. They also get thrown in jail for thought crimes where the truth is literally no defense. Hmm, jailing intellectuals... Sounds familiar...

Some guy said revenge was an aspect of it. It probably is. Jews get pissed off like anybody else. Oh noes, they is human and they do evil too.  Duh, Sherlock.

Can't say bad jew or you a nazithatwantstokillsixmillionjews.

Why don't you actually go READ those links. Scared?

As for records, the nazis were the type of people that categorized what their grandmother ate for lunch. Some of those Auschwitz documents had twenty different copies or MORE, across all of frickin' Germany. 

When that guy talks about the six million myth and that ashes from space thing, he's talking about the fact you can't hide six million corpses. The numbers were set using rumor-mongering, tortured confessions, and pay-offs. The actual records were too small to satisfy the jews. It couldn't be a realistic number like ten thousand, no it had to be SIX MILLION. Before that, it was NINE MILLION. Oh, and it couldn't be something realistic like shooting with mass graves; no, it had to be people killed in mass with ineffective explosive insecticide right next to a raging fire. They had to defy the laws of physics. No, it wasn't good enough having a little mistreatment at the hands of the Germans. No, they had to be made into of soap and lampshades (items which has been tested and proven to NOT have any human products in them)! Before gas chambers, it was the electro chambers. They kept on using more and more chutzpah and making the lies more and more ridiculous, until they get disproven later. Eventually, it comes back and bites them in the ass. Not suprising, lies tend to do that, at least in my experience. 

Look, the copernican revolution about this holohoax thing is coming. It's writing on the wall. You never hear about these guys in the news, but the knowledge is spreading over the internet like wildfire. Some people are working up the guts to SAY something.

I actually read through those sites; I'm glad I did, and I've changed my whole freaking opinion. It's like I just looked up and saw the sun for the first time.

>>27
This is the primary reason eugenics doesn't work, it's interbreeding that leads inferior cultures to gain otherwise unattainable knowledge. Pockets of intellectually elite western, arab, and asian men could exist, but at the expense of everyone below them. We do not need them, but they desperately need us, and man is not selfish by nature, being formerly roving nomads, changing to community-driven lifestyles after discovering agriculture. (not to mention if you leave too many stupid people sitting around surrounding you, eventually one is going to make up a reason, usually religious, for them to hate you and bust open those walls.)
Essentially, our unselfish nature is what keeps us from killing off totally inferior ethnicities, no matter how many opportunities we had, and still have. If this is not true, how would you explain England never completely erradicating Africa? They had the means and manpower to take out every little tribe in the area below the northern 13% of the continent, and it wouldn't have taken long for reinforcements to arrive and start on the remainder. I believe greed is a subconcious moral balance that afflicts evil people, leading them to believe it would be beneficial to leave the indiginous people alive rather than executing the lot of them like the Vandals and the Mongols once did.

tl;dr: Man wtf is up with white people being hated on? They're the nicest conquerers ever, shit!
The only people we've truly screwed over were the various Injun tribes in the Americas.

>>30
If you visit Holocaust museums, the less knowledgeable ones (read: too small for the industry to bother correcting) have the true numbers posted, which of course don't add up to six million, or anywhere close, at all. I visited one such museum in high school, and after adding the numbers in my head, asked why. The answer was simply "Those numbers represent the ones we could find." As if we totally disappear after only a few decades? Hogwash! Even after being cremated there's still a few methods you can use to verify, at least, that the ashes were once human remains. Probably the only surefire way to dispose of evidence is a volcanic sacrifice, which just leaves a little carbon rock after awhile.

>>31
I'm no expert, but I'm guessing it's pretty tough to count the number of dead people in ash form, especially after it's all been shovelled out, blown away by the wind, or otherwise strewn about the countryside.

I still say there could have been 6 million detainees, not all of them Jewish, and not all of them killed from the experience.  So saying there were 6 million "victims" would be accurate if you included everyone who was ever in a concentration camp, killed or not. 

>>31

The American Indians are like that one relative nobody wants around and they just stuff him/her in the closet for five hours while the family eats dinner and goes home.  Apathy is where it's at.  Of course, apathy can also lead to uprisings when you leave pissed off groups unchecked.

Why are 6000000 jews (Auschwitz) worth more than 20000000 christians (Gulags)?

Apathy.  No one cares how many die from starvation or neglect or imprisonment.  No one cares how many have died in China from civil War and starvation, or in Africa from Civil War and starvation.  No one cares about Eastern Europe or Russia.  No one cares.

>>33

You still say that there were 6 million detainees. That's all hearsay. That's the whole problem with this thing. It's about belief. People want to believe in the holocaust for some odd reason. I mean, oh my god, without the holocaust hitler was an uptight bigot that also did some good things. Suddenly, the nazis aren't satan and they become people. Instead of looking at the nazis like some cheap paper cutout from a comic book, they become real people with needs and desires of their own. They have reasons.

Even if the whole holohoax thing is contradictory and it was obviously a good thing politically and financially for the Zionists, world Jewry, and the allies to slander and demonize the nazis, people still want to believe in their childhood myths. It's like learning that the easter bunny doesn't exist.

The holocaust is REAL religion.

This isn't about sticking with what is comfortable. This is about growing up. This is about intellectual maturity.

It sucks because you'll be the underdog and a REAL rebel if you accept the truth about the holohoax. We've got plenty of socially acceptable ways to rebel (which aren't really a form of rebellion, more like a pigeonholing) and being open to criticism of Jews or jewish interests is not it. Just like people that denied the earth was flat, you'll be hounded and spit upon. If you are in Europe, you might get roughed up by the holocaust inquisition. You can go to jail for this stuff in Europe. Free speech my ass.

But, this stuff is going to win out in the end. It's happening right now. When the berlin wall fell, everybody KNEW that they were living in a sham. One day, a couple of people on the street starting chanting something along the lines of 'one germany' or something like that, and boom, the wall fell. But, everybody KNEW first.

Then, it just reached critical pressure and the top flew off the whole blasted thing.

That's the same thing that's happening with the six million myth and this blasted DRAMATIZATION of jewish suffering. Other people are being left out in the cold because nobody is as important as the jews. Everybody else is to blame. Jews can mistreat people because they were mistreated. Boo hoo. The jews have done their own share of mistreating. They gave better than they got. There were far larger massacres in history, like in the Soviet Union, where millions of people really did die, and they were counted. Not phantom corpses and rumors and hearsay and confession by purse or torture (with crushed balls) like the holocaust. Those mass starvations were done at the hand of a rabbi, a JEWISH rabbi, and that's probably why Ukraine's top university (MAUP I believe) was willing to test David Duke http://www.davidduke.com t o see if he qualified for a doctorate.

How many people research the internment of the Germans after the end of WW2? Nobody seems to care about the mistreatment of them. After all, every German that lived in Germany was a nazithatwantstokillsixmillionjews.

I guess that after all the overdramatization and milking and whining by the jews, you sort of get to the point where you just can't feel sorry for them anymore. In white society, people that complain too much or make up tall tales or call everybody else evil as a form of extortion and cover up their greed with cries of 'entitlement' are frowned upon. Heck, they're frowned upon by any sort of decent people.

What pisses me off the most though is the billions sent to Israel and 'holocaust survivors.' There are about 3.1 million jews out there that applied as 'holocaust survivors' and some of them have gotten more than a million in 'reparations.' Bullshit. You get to be a millionaire because you survived living in a concentration camp, or you can lie through your teeth without flinching? That's highway robbery. The holohoax is the scam of the century.

The aid to Israel from the US by 1997 was something in the range of 85 billion. Israel has taken out even more loans since all this middle east crap went full swing, and I heard someone say something about a figure of 100 billion. So, if I count that in, the cost to US is around 185 billion dollars. The actual cost to the average taxpayer is actually around that +50%, I'd say roughly around 260 billion (with population considered stable from 1997.) That's about 40,000 dollars per US citizen, and that's not even considering that we sold them US military at rock bottom prices, basically giving them money to buy stuff from us wholesale. I dread adding up ALL the foreign aid and reparations paid to Israel from Europe, especially Germany.

>>32
it is physically impossible to burn a human body into ash with the materials the nazi's had at their camps.
The major bones always remain and have to be crushed unless you are either chucking the bodies into the sun/volcano/ground zero of a nuclear explosion.

Human bodies are 70% water, they do not burn easily.

>>37
moar of you please

>>38
Actually, fat old women burn much more easily than others.  They actually had it down to a science, how to stack the bodies so that they'd burn easily.