日本語 Japanese Ask Questions Thread 6

If you have a question about the language, ask it and fellow 4channers might see it and answer it for you.

Japanese - Ask questions thread
http://dis.4chan.org/read/lang/1174719097/1-40

日語 Japanese Ask Questions Thread2 質問
http://dis.4chan.org/read/lang/1206158123/1-40

日本語 Japanese Ask Questions Thread 3
http://dis.4chan.org/read/lang/1267485093/1-40

日本語 Japanese Ask Questions Thread 4
http://dis.4chan.org/read/lang/1302350850/1-40

日本語 Japanese Ask Questions Thread 5
http://dis.4chan.org/read/lang/1330050873/1-40

>>440
しかける also has its own idiomatic meanings, so on second thought maybe not the best example for the "half done" usage. 言いかけた is another good one, though.

>>440

Thank you, this was extremely helpful.
If anyone else(or the same guy) has anything to add to the subject, please go ahead.

How would I say "For some reason,(blahblah happened)"?
In the sense that -I'm not sure why, but it somehow happened-

>>443
何らかの理由で
どういうわけか

>>441
Instead of "doing something halfway", 掛ける is better understood in its actual/primary meaning of "to hang, roist, or raise". When you hang something, the idea (at least in so far as its Japanese understanding) is that you begin an action and then it is kind of frozen, made to wait, literally just "hanging there" etc. Any further action outside of or as a result of the primary action is not included. Obviously there's always some exceptions and this is just a way to think about what the verb "means", not a guide on its usage which would simply require you to memorize it and not worry about a deeper understanding. For example, the idea of "hang" for some verbs is literal. Like 振りかける, where you "shake and then hang" (sprinkle) salt or pepper onto something. Or 立て掛ける, where you "stand and then hang" (lean) something up against something else.

仕掛ける: to commence (but not finish), to lay a mine (but not detonate it), to wage war (but not fight it)
言掛ける: to begin to speak, to stop halfway in speaking
話掛ける: to being to talk to (but not enter into conversation)

>>445

I agree with trying to understand things in their original meaning, but 話しかける doesn't mean you don't actually enter conversation. It just refers to beginning a conversation, especially when it's begun specifically by one party.

http://questionbox.jp.msn.com/qa1712494.html

>>446
You're misunderstanding something. It doesn't "mean" anything. It's usage does not imply the content of a conversation or even that a conversation must or will result. When you 話しかける someone, there will probably be further talking but you're trying to put that inside the meaning itself, but its just not there. It's the same as accost, begin to talk to, etc.

>>446

Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're saying. I guess 話す would imply both ways while you could say 日本人に話しかけられたが、怖くて返事できなかった。

>>447

Haha, minute too late. I guess I shouldn't be making replies at 5 am.

>>448
>>449
There's a good example on the link you posted yourself. 

「話しかけて会話を始めた」 These are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE ideas, thus they are separated by te-form from one verb to connect it to the idea of the other.

>>450

I know man, that's why I said I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying 話しかける explicitly excludes the possibility of starting conversation. You were actually saying it doesn't explicitly include the fact that you started a conversation.

How would you, in that case, differentiate 投げる　and 投げかける?
Not sure if this uses the same meaning of 掛ける　as 話しかける.

>>452
投げる is simply throw, toss, etc.

投げ掛ける is understood as cast, shadow, or even to pose in more colloquial usage. A good example is 疑問を投げ掛ける, to raise or cast doubt or question. The difference with most 掛ける verbs is that there's a slight implication that there will be a natural result from the action, because so much of it is one-sided. As with "commence" and "accost", the emphasis is focused on the action itself, or towards the side of the speaker/doer.

The implication is exactly the same as 話しかける, its use and range is just a little different. I wouldn't advise try to stretch your understanding of a supplementary verb to fit every single verb out there.

>>453

Yes, of course. I'm just trying to find some general guidelines on the meaning of these supplementary verbs.

And on that subject, I thought of another one that I need covered.
-合う
Rikaichan says "to do to each other". Is this good enough or are there more general meanings I should be aware of?

>>454
Speaking of, I always have problems grasping what 合わせる actually means. I has so many meanings I treat it like I normally treat 掛ける -skip it and hope I understand the context later.

What is the most common use of 合わせる？

>>454
Basically. Though "to each other" might not fit all contexts. The idea of "mutuality" is primary.

>>455
If you're having trouble with what it means, you should look at a dictionary. The problem with what you're doing now is you're looking at an English meaning of a Japanese word. Which doesn't work at all. Because what that means is we don't have a word that fits perfectly with 合わせる (which is pretty funny considering its meaning). All the meanings are basically the same thing. Look at what connects them if you want a general grasp of the word or read the Japanese definition (even though that still is a shot in the dark). This is some pretty basic stuff. If you stop micromanaging your education, you'll get a better one.

>>456

I guess you're right, I have been micromanaging a bit too much lately.
Well, I do have a legit question though, how do I differentiate between 招く, 誘う　and　招待する?

Although I have to admit, awaseru aside, I have gained a lot of insight from having -kakeru, -komu -dasu and now -au explained to me. While the explanations do not cover all verbs with those supplements, I feel like I upped my vocabulary quite a bit for a relatively small effort.

>>457
招く is invite in the sense you call on or someone something or someone in a general sense, or in a more removed understanding, you cause it (often indirectly). It's not limited to people, like 誤解を招く or 病気を招く

誘う is invite in the sense of inviting someone to something or towards something, a party or event. More removed, it can also mean to "invite" someone towards temptation. Though its usually limited to people there are phrases like 涙を誘う. You can't use 招く in this case and understanding why will give you a good idea of how to use 誘う.

招待 is simply invitation. It's the Chinese-based word that acts as the root for different words like 招待状, 招待席　and so on. It's basically 誘う but used strictly for people, companies made up of people, etc.

>>458
You're welcome.

Let's see if I've understood this correctly, >>459
Am I right when I say that 涙を招く could be used if the tears are a metaphor for sadness?

>>460
Actually, that was stupid as fuck. Yes, I clearly understand the difference now. Thanks.

I repeatedly find myself making rookie mistakes regarding the で　and に particles. What are some common verbs that deceivingly use に　intead of で?
For example:
私は東京に住んでいます。
私は東京にいます。

From having failed a few times too many, I realise now that both 住む　and 居る are supposed to use に even though every fiber in my body wants to say で。

>>462
Hard fast rule: Aside from で without relation to the verb, it is almost always location of action (second to being a means to that action). There is nothing deceiving if you understand the logic dictating the language.

Understanding it as location of actions is easy for cases like 居る, because "being" is a special case, closer to a state, not an action performed (save any philosophical bullshit for languages which give a fuck). 住む is the same, to a lesser extent. Things get kind of confusing with 暮らす, which normally takes で, though plenty of people use に, especially in modifying clauses and noun phrases. After that, hard verbs, actions verbs, "doing" verbs will almost always take で with regard to location without any direction or movement.

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>>463

I think that last one you said might've been what's been troubling me about で. What do you mean with regard to locationg without any direction or movement?

How do I say "I do not claim that A is in any way better than B at Japanese, but..."

>>467
決して（何らかの形でも）私はＡの方がＢより日本語が得意と主張していませんが・・・

>>466
Basically just that で doesn't work with movement like に does. There's a lot of ways to look at it but basically, if its a hard action verb, it's likely going to be で.

Anyone know if it's possible to get 日本社会探検 as a PDF(for free)?

Also, is there any difference between 支払う　and 払う?

>>470
I'm sure someone has scanned it but if you're looking for a textbook, I wouldn't recommend it. Without a class or curriculum to support it, all you really have is a poorly arranged list of grammar and 12 short essays for reading practice. There are no guides or explanations, just information (which is free [and more plentiful on the internet]).

Yes and no. Both are essentially "to pay" and can be used almost interchangeably in most any situation, but 支払う is more often used in what you might call "official" situations or where you want to add a level of distinction: paying off debt or bills, where money is owed or a loss exists. It's better understood as "make a payment", even in the sense you pay your bill at a restaurant. The meaning of 支 (support) kind of plays into it; you're paying FOR something. 払う is just generally "paying", and just has a kind of whatever feeling; you're more paying TOWARD it. Plus, 払う can be used metaphorically or in phrases outside of money, like 注意を払う (to pay attention).

When I was living in Japan, I'd often use and hear 保険料を支払いたいんですが・・・ and レジで払えばいいんですか？Those should give you a good idea of how to distinguish IRL.

>>471
Yeah, I got a scholarship for 4 months at a university in Nagoya this fall semester. I think their courses for foreign students are a bit below my level, but I ain't backing out of 4 free months in Japan. I managed dig up some info about the course litterature which is why I'm looking for this book. Of course, I realize that the internet(specifically this thread) is the way to go for any questions that a dictionary can't answer.

It's quite impressive that you can make such a precise distinction. You'd do a better job than my former university instructors for sure. THanks.

>>472
...so yeah, I totally graduated from Nanzan a few months ago. I can vouch that their intensive Japanese courses are extremely well taught (at least mine were; it depends on the set of instructors you get at the level you take), maybe not "challenging" in the same sense but you will learn. IJ600 uses 日本社会探検, so if that's the level you're looking to get placed at, you'll do far more with the book as a class than you could ever do alone, trust me. IJ700 is pretty intense too (being the highest they offer [only in the spring though], they max it out).

>>473
Wait, is this the same dude who's been helping me up until now?
Anyway, yeah, I thought I might as well get the book and look it through since I've got a summer break now. Also, I definitely intend to learn a lot at IJ600 and from being in Japan at all.

>>474
Yeah, I'm >>471 and others.

Have you got the kanji/grammar list from Nanzan yet? Going over IJ600 kanji and grammar might serve you better than the textbook.

Although, and this is just me personally, I didn't study anything new at all before I went. I got real solid on the basics and what I already knew but that's it. Study abroad shouldn't be treated the same as a chapter test at your university in my opinion; it's a deepening experience that you just don't "study" for. All the entrants always get all excited and brag about how much they studied for the placement test but... its a placement test: it's meant to tell you where you REALLY ARE, not where you studied to be. You might place higher if you memorize more kanji but does that really mean you understand them? Not in my opinion.

Anyway, if you get Hamada or Tsuda teaching your class, you're in good hands. IJ700 had a teacher named Okada that was batshit insane. Try to stay clear of that one.

The thing is, there is little else I can do right now as far as Japanese goes except for studying(although I do hang out with the japanese exchange students here now and then). Also, even though I took a university course in Japanese, I've never actually studied for my grades or the like. I have from the start studied because I wanted to learn Japanese. The placement test doesn't really bother me, I just assumed that I'd get into IJ600 since they set the benchmark at 700 kanji and I'm comfortably above 1000 right now. I don't doubt that there will be plenty of stuff I don't know even at IJ600, so I want to get as much of the raw schoolwork out of the way as possible so I can focus on the experience, just like you said.
Also, if I manage to get my reading to a level where I can process normal articles without abusing rikai-chan too much before leaving for Japan, I assume that will just make the experience much more enjoyable.

I haven't seen any kanji/grammar list actually, you happen to have that available?

Also, holy shit wow this is amazing. Thanks, I'll jot down Hamada and Tsuda(and Okada).

I wanted to ask, how much of the raw writing(by hand) did you do at IJ600? Since I've pretty much only been studying on the computer lately, I feel pretty bad about writing kanji's by hand. It felt good when I was in my hardcore kanji session but I don't think I'd be able to write even half of them right now. Of course, there's no problem when reading or writing on the computer.
Do I need to go back and brush up on writing(again)? I've heard that they don't really focus on kanjis'.

>>476
Well, I definitely recommend getting more face-time with Japanese conversation while you can during the summer. Especially if you choose to live in a dorm (I lived the the Nagoya Koryuu Kaikan [also where I found my significant other but that's a different story]). Getting acquainted early with the fucked up language that Japanese college students call "Japanese" will make your life outside of school much more comfortable. No one really speaks Nagoyaben (except old people you'll meet on the street) but its definitely in some areas of youth language (しとる instead of している, わ instead of よ). You might not pick up all of it in 4 months but you'll start to recognize it. I'd just recommend getting some speaking practice in now, even if its by yourself. You can read and write kanji anywhere in the world.

Knowing more kanji is good but there's grammar and writing that also factor into the test. It at least sounds like you know what you're doing, so don't worry about it; you'll do fine. Again, I'd stress going over what you already know. There's homework and whatnot but you'll have plenty of time to go out and experience stuff. I only studied (books, desk, denshi jisho) when I had to and I feel like I got a better experience because of it.

Well, depending on how you're going to Nanzan (exchange, IES, scholarship program etc.) you'll probably get different things at different times but I went through Indiana University and got packets with prep-material to get my visa, course expectations, schedules, dorm info, everything. I have it (the kanji/grammar list) handy but I don't really have a way to scan it or anything. You'll probably be getting it at some point soon. Also when/if you get the brochure, I wrote an article on the Japanese Literature IV elective they offer. Just sayin'.

Hamada's very prescriptive but just a really good educator. Tsuda is the sweetest little old Japanese lady ever and will do EVERYTHING to make sure you understand the lesson. I also had a bro named Hanashiro who bounced back between 600 and 400/500. I describe him as a creepy uncle. He's hard into gunpla and cracks little jokes to himself. I liked him but I didn't learn that much in his class. I had a roommate who had Okada and she was described as the hardest bitch ever. People would be confused and ask her to go over something again and she would outright ignore or even laugh at them. She was just a hardass. I'd also recommend any elective classes from Yamada (sweet, genius lady), Hosoya (eccentric, thinks he knows English Japanese literature professor and Todai grad), or Matsuda (another sweet old(er) lady who lived in Wisconsin and is pretty good at English). I liked 'em. Maybe you will.

There was a lot of in-class writing in IJ600. Pretty much every day. I never really practiced writing before but it wouldn't hurt to go over a few. It's actually easier in some ways to just write hiragana for a word you're not sure about (they'll take of points if the kanji is wrong or illegible but they wont if its in hiragana). Basically, if you want to practice, you can. But it won't make a huge difference. You'll learn what you need to for kanji tests and that's about it.

>>477
You just made me happier than you can imagine, it's been bugging me for months now that it is inappropriate for me, as a male, to use わ instead of よ. I feel so much better saying わ. After a semester in Nagoya, I can just say that I was living in Nagoya and thus developed a thing for わ.

Yeah, since we get a lot of japanese exchange students here, I've had speaking as my forté in Japanese. We used to go out for dinner once a week actually(while only speaking Japanese, even at the time when I had only studied the language for 1 month), and they were the ones who motivated me to give Japanese the effort it requires(if one is to learn it within a plausible timeframe).

I think I'm getting the info at a later date then. I am to send them a medical examination signed by a physician and my arrival information by the end of the month, then I assume I'm getting a reply with more info. I feel much better just knowing that such a thing as a grammar/kanji list exists.

By the way, I chose to live in dorms, and did so to save the train-time and to get some freedom on when/what to eat/sleep.
Do you have any idea how they place students in dorms? I read about there being private dorms that are quite a distance from campus, and that is my number one worry. If I have to spend 2+ hours on a train every day, I'll feel like I wasted a whole 10% of my trip.

>>478
It is possible to use わ as a dialect (Nagoya and surrounding areas) but you really have to watch the intonation. An upward intonation at the end is female. Saying it plainly, without any intonation is male. If you're getting excited, its easy to use an upward intonation and end up sounding like a complete homosexual (albeit a Japaneses one).

Yeah, if you're still doing medical stuff, you'll get it in a few weeks if there are no problems. What school are you at now, by the way? We might know some of the same people.

As to the dorm situation, from what I understood, if you're a normal, fairly well-adjusted, eloquent individual (or at least sounded that way in your application), you should be placed at ACT house or Nagoya Koryuu Kaikan. Everyone in the Yamazato and Rainbow House dorms seemed like they had Aspergers or some social problems. Not to say there weren't "normal" people there, or people at NKK were all very social and well-adjusted, but it seemed like that was the general rule. NKK is literally 2 minutes from the main gate (I woke up 5 minutes before class everyday [shit was so cash]). Yamazato is about 10 minutes away and down a bunch of hills that suck to climb up. Both are fairly accessible to surrounding areas (15 minute walk to Yagoto, 10 minute walk to Yagoto Nisseki, 15 minute walk to Irinaka, 20 minute walk to Motoyama). ACT house is about 30 minutes away by train. I knew three guys that lived there and it was alright for them. I still have no idea where Rainbow House is; I made a point of not talking to the people from there. People from homestays had to travel almost 2 hours to get to school everyday. I also heard a lot of horror stories with families from around the area. You made a good choice to live in the dorms, especially if you get NKK.

Well shit, maybe I should lay off the わ then. Also, I'm so happy I went all normalfag and full I-love-everything-japanese-related-so-much on their application form. Should boost my chances for 2 minutes from the main gate.

I'm(was) at Stockholm University, Sweden. The seniors I know who were in Nanzan last year are two Swedish girls named Tuva and Rebecca. Rebecca went 600 and Tuva 400, both lived in NKK I believe, and both left in December.

Let me ask about my minor worries while you're here. You seem to have paid 10 times the attention any of my seniors did.
In the pre-departure information I got, it says that it is preferable to arrive September 3rd or 4th. Registration is September 6th. I wanted to arrive a wee bit earlier at the 1st or 31st, would that become a huge bother for the ones who'll be picking me up? Or do they run several times on those days anyway? Is it an advantage to arrive earlier than suggested? I wanted some time to settle down and look around Nagoya before school started, but that might not matter if everyone gets tours later on.