>私は 東京にも 行く
The first sentence means "I'll also go to Tokyo", implying there's another place (main goal), let's say Osaka, that you'll go to. Because of the は particle it's also implying that only you are going to Tokyo in addition to Osaka, while someone else (who's relevant to the context of your conversation) is only going to Osaka and not to Tokyo.
Starting out every sentence with 私はなんとかかんとか is a bad idea because of this.
>私も 東京に 行く
This means something completely different, although the phrasing is the same in English: (Someone is going to Tokyo) I'll also go to Tokyo.
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Anonymous2012-05-21 12:57
I'd like to ask what is probably going to seem like a very stupid question. Nearly everyone (that I've seen, anyway) advocates learning Japanese by learning to write Kana and Kanji from the get-go. I understand the necessity of learning to write and read in Japanese, but why is it a bad idea to start learning basic speaking vocabulary and grammar first, the way you learn a language normally? I'm not trying to take the easy wait out or anything, I just don't understand why it's not better to learn to speak the language some first, and then learn to write it, like you would if you were a child.
The Japanese syllabary is phonetic, meaning that (barring several specific exceptions) there's a one-to-one correlation between sounds and characters. These sounds form the building blocks of the language. Your Japanese is more likely to be accurate and understandable when you have a grasp of these building blocks.
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Anonymous2012-05-21 21:34
>>282
My friend actually explained this much better than I had understood it prior: yes, children learn by immersing themselves in a language environment. It takes them upwards of two years until they can say basic things, and they do not have any verbal symbols prior.
Writing is a functional system of creating symbols where they might not have existed before (gestalt theory shows that we will read words holistically instead of breaking down the letters or ideographs). Additionally, if you want to go into an immersive environment, then go right in. But, like a child, expect to understand nothing for two years and then slowly begin to grasp the language. If you want to learn like a student, then you should learn the writing system so you can study Japanese textually. Your speaking skills will be weaker than your textual skills at first, but if you go to Japan with two or three years of study under your belt, you will be surprised at how quickly you go from a retard to someone able to hold a functional conversation in a real topic. That's been my experience, as someone who had a writing-heavy college experience and then went abroad after 2.5 years of study. In 4 months I went from being almost unable to talk at all (I could talk somewhat, which is pretty good for text-heavy learning), to being able to hold basic conversations at full speed, and more intermediate conversations (things that have constructions such as "it's not necessarily given that ~ even if you say ~, but rather...") at a lower speed and accuracy but functional enough to get my point across.
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Anonymous2012-05-22 10:22
Quote from Genki: "With an adjective for which visual evidence is crucial, such as きれいな, we do not use そう and say that something is きれいそうです, if it looks pretty; we already have enough evidence to conclude that it is pretty."
I remember a few days ago, watching Utena, one of the characters said something on the lines of "A heart searching for eternity could be seen as beautiful"
So when the word is used in this sense, does what the Genki book said still apply? Not sure if it's the use of the word きれいな in any respect that prevents you using it, or if it's purely due to the fact that something is right in front of you and it's obvious? Sorry if I'm being kind of vauge; I'm still a beginner, so I'm not sure precisely how to word the question.
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Anonymous2012-05-22 12:14
>>285
そう isn't usually used with visual adjectives but it can be used with きれい given the bases of a) what is being seen is visual (not ideal, imagined, mental, etc.) and something that garners a feeling, reaction or opinion.
One example is: 空気もきれいそうだ
きれいに見える is a safer option. Literally, something that looks or appears pretty. It's not the same as "seems" but it works.
What is the most common thing to search for if I'm looking for an album cover in Japanese?
I tried アルバム but all I got was picture albums.
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Anonymous2012-05-22 22:19
>>285
I believe you'd say きれいに見える (literally "can be seen beautifully")
>>287
It's actually a very functional sentence pattern even in every day language. It's common for me to say things like 外人からといって、もてるとはかぎらない。むしろ、ナンポ下手。
"Just because I'm a gaijin doesn't mean necessarily that women are all over me. Rather, my pickup sucks."
If I'm misunderstanding what you're saying then I'm sorry, but the issue with adding そう to きれい is that そう is only used for evidence. 優しそう can only be used when you are inferring, for example. きれいそう doesn't make sense because you're not inferring or guessing, you're actually seeing it. You CAN use it if someone, for example describes it to you, and you are imagining (guessing) what it looks like.
Note that as >>289 said, きれいそうだ and きれいだそう are very different, just like 優しそう and 優しいそう. In both cases the latter is used for hearsay evidence.
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Anonymous2012-05-23 2:17
So what's the best resource to acquire more grammar after Tae Kim's guide?
There should be a chart or something with tips on the 'look up what you don't know part'. It's all well and good to know how to use google, but if you don't know precisely what it is you're actually looking for, it can be rather cumbersome to go through so many pages, reading potential rubbish.
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Anonymous2012-05-23 7:06
>>292
Sorry, yeah, you know what I mean. I'm still a mid-level learner so I still make shitloads of obvious mistakes.
After Heisig, I'm thinking of doing the following. Currently, I've got cards like the keyword with the question 'cut きる' on the front, and '切' on the back. But I'm thinking of going through them and replacing them from sentences from jishou. For this example, I'd suspend that card, and make a new one with '指をきりました。' on the front, and '指を切りました。' on the back.
So I have three questions regarding that. Once, is it stupid for some reason I haven't noticed? Two, should I put any English in to help me along? Three, should I put all the kanji in hiragana so I can effectively do two-in-one, or would this make it too hard to read, unclear what it meant, etc?
Thanks.
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Anonymous2012-05-24 3:52
>>302
Learn however the fuck you want to, you touchy bastard. Are you so goddamn incapable of making your own decisions that others, completely different from yourself in every possible way with regard to language acquisition, should tell you how to learn? Do you even understand what it means to learn? Holy shit.
In summary, if you don't even know HOW to learn by yourself, you'll never learn a goddamn thing.
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Anonymous2012-05-24 3:54
>>303
And before you create some half-brained, smart-ass response, you're the only one who can figure out the best method for you. Try a bunch of different shit. See what works. Stop posting here until you have a question that you can't solve by yourself. Fuck.
So you are basically telling me that, while you COULD let me know what worked for you, so that I can see that, at the very least, it's not a method that will universally fail, I should potentially waste months when I could have got pointers from someone who had been through my situation prior to me?
Why on Earth would someone asking for help infuriate you so much?
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Anonymous2012-05-24 4:11
>>303 >>304
Chill out, there's no need for the anger. The question was perfectly valid and he obviously put more thought than just "HOW TO LEARN PLEASE". Sharing learning methods is a great way to get ideas to try out.
>>302
I don't think there's much value in going from hiragana to kanji. What I would do is just do eng>kanji, that way you get both. It also improves the speed at which you can recall specific words in conversation.
Do you mean just like individual words for vocabulary? Or do you mean having a Japanese sentence, blanking out part of it, and having the English key word somewhere on the card, and I have to think about how to write in the kanji & kana?
Or have I misunderstood completely?
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Anonymous2012-05-24 4:20
>>305
I didn't use fucking flashcards. Maybe you should. Maybe you shouldn't. Are you really trying to find methods that won't "universally fail"? Are you that desperate and retarded? You piss me off because you're not looking for answers, you're looking for direction. And, when you learn by yourself, you need to find your own direction.
Are you really asking if you should write English on the same flashcard? Does that make it easier? Maybe. Does that make you learn faster? Maybe. Do you want to make it easier? That's up to fucking you. Are you really asking if you should put all of the kanji in hiragana? If you can't fucking read it, you can't fucking read it. If its confusing, you don't know it.
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Anonymous2012-05-24 11:44
>>307
I was talking about vocab. If you're going to do sentences I think the best way to work is to look at Japanese sentences and then have literal English translations. This allows you to comprehend quickly and better understand the way Japanese is put together.
>>308
I'm beginning to wonder if you aren't just a troll. Of course some methods will work better for some than others. That doesn't mean it's wrong to share with others and discuss how effective a method was for you. Maybe I learned Japanese by reading the backs of Japanese shampoo bottles. That doesn't mean it was effective, and there were almost certainly better ways for me to have learned it.
There's nothing wrong with feeling lost when undertaking something as large as learning a language. Why don't you share what worked for you?
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Anonymous2012-05-24 12:09
So I got this sentence from Jishou: その火山は今年２度噴火した。
However I have no idea how to pronounce 度. Rikaichan gives me either たび or たんび for 'time; times', so if it's this one, how do I choose? However, it also gives 'ど’ for the counter for occurences.
I'm most interested in finding out how to figure these out on my own, if there's a method other than having seen it a billion times, though the answer would also be great, thanks.
So was there any way of seeing it was meant to be that, other than having seen it before? If I were just going by Rikaichan, it could've been either. Do counters take priority or something?
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Anonymous2012-05-24 12:38
After a number, I'd always use the counter unless I have some strong reason tb lieve otherwise. rikaichan also gives ふたたび for this, but ordinarily that's written 再び, so I'd assume にど
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Anonymous2012-05-24 17:03
>>312
'nitabi' is not a word. And very awkward at that. 'santabi' exists but is very uncommon.
二度 can be read as futatabi but 再び takes on that meaning, and has a different nuance.
You dont need to see it a billion times to know its not a word. Its usually always do in examples like this.
>>316
Thanks, I used to have it but never re-installed it and forgot about it.
Google translate gave me "drink/drinking/drinking" and what I am currently using gave me some weird definition with "A drink/the drink/drinking".
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Anonymous2012-05-25 5:04
>>319
飲酒 is the consumption of alcohol (see 飲酒運転)
飲み物 is a drink of any kind
飲む is the verb to drink.
Rikaichan just uses EDICT. You can easily check the difference using that same database at jisho.org. There are also about a million other different dictionaries (I use alc.co.jp)
I feel like people aren't able to google effectively.