Return Styles: Pseud0ch, Terminal, Valhalla, NES, Geocities, Blue Moon.

Pages: 1-4041-8081-

Imaginary Numbers

Name: !kuk54qxINg 2007-12-18 17:27

Are complex numbers any more imaginary than real numbers? What makes pi more real than i?

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-18 17:29

tripfag

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-18 17:29

Real numbers and imaginary numbers are just defined phrases. They aren't related to the colloquial definitions of the words "real" and "imaginary" except in an intuitive sense.

Name: !kuk54qxINg 2007-12-18 17:53

>>2
What's wrong with tripcodes?

>>3
Thanks.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-18 18:26

>>4


>What's wrong with tripcodes?
>wrong ... tripcodes
>tripcodes

Name: !kuk54qxINg 2007-12-18 18:38

>>5
I think you forgot to add a point to your post.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-18 19:36

Wait till you learn about 'impossible', 'noncomputable', 'vector', 'trivial', 'cantor' and 'final' numbers.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-18 20:11

Read SICP

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-18 20:20

holy God

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-18 20:25

>>1
Numbers are not any more or less real than others. There is no property called "realness."

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-18 20:36

>>1
There is no property called "realness."

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-18 22:57

its called imaginary because i = sqrt(-1) what number squared will  get you -1

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-19 2:56

>>12

+/- i

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-19 6:11

>>12
Ah, the obligatory middle school moron thinking he can add something to the thread.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-19 12:12

Imaginary and complex numbers are just made up to make certain things simpler... you basically define a set of pairs and define addition and multiplication and it turns out you get a field. That's pretty much it.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-19 15:26

Real numbers are just made up to complete all limits of sequences of rational numbers. Complex numbers are just made up to algebraically complete the real numbers.

Now, onto REAL math! All the EXPERT ANALYSTS on this board know that 1/0 is infinity, -1/0 is minus infinity; but what is 0/0 (or, for that case, -0/0)? That question has trouble the greatest minds since Pythagoras, but I have now devised a solution! 0/0 is Nullity. What if an aeroplane or your pacemaker divided by zero? Thanks to my discovery of Nullity, you are safe.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-19 16:13

-0=0
0/0=1

Name: RedCream 2007-12-19 19:15

A Cartesian field using imaginary numbers produces real numbers as areas.  Cool ... so does that mean if -1 is a 0 dimensional entity, then i is a -1 dimensional entity?

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-19 20:17

>>18

No. Idort.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-19 20:18

>>18
I don't want to sound rude, but your babbling like a retarded middle school student.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-19 21:41

>>17
You are wrong about the second one. It is INDETERMINATE. Limits of those forms can sometimes be evaluated using L'Hospital's Rule.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-19 21:42

>>18
I want to sound rude, because you really are babbling like a retarded middle school student.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-19 21:52

>>22
He's no Mr. Science, that's for sure.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-19 23:24

>>7
THIS IS MADNESS.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-20 0:15

>>20
What I meant to say was obviously "your babbling like a retarded middle school student is irritating me."

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-20 0:37

Jeepers, you guys are rude

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-20 8:48

0/0 is rude!

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-20 14:59

>>16
0/0 is indeterminate. Limits approaching 0/0 can have all sorts of values.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-20 15:35

>>28

0/0 is NULLITY, a new number which I use to solve 1200-year-old problems. For instance, the likes of Newton and Euler wondered, "What is 0^0?". Thanks to my INNOVATION, I can prove that 0^0 = 0/0 = Nullity. I should have mailed it to the Marx brothers!

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-20 15:49

michio kaku

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-20 16:40

>>29
Question: what is NULLITY*5?

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-20 17:03

>>21

is L'Hopital, not L'Hospital

>>1
Imaginary numbers are a tool used to represent and predict reality, just like irrational numbers, rational numbers, integers, and counting numbers.  They are useful for, say, multiplying cos(t) with 2*cos(t + 30 degrees).  Euler's Identity with e^(j*t) = cos(t) + j*sin(t)

note:  EE here so I use sqrt(-1) = j by habit.  Also the j comes first, so you write it as j3.33 or something like that.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-20 18:25

In my opinion the term "imaginary" is simply because when they were first concieved they had no "real" use, and the terminology has continued. They are no more "unreal" than real numbers, they are just an extension to them really.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-20 20:33

What's nullity/0?  Can thar be imaginary nullity? lyk omg

IMAGINARY INFINITY?

My naivety knows no bounds.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-20 20:33

Michio Kaku counted to infinity... twice.

Name: RedCream 2007-12-20 22:01

Are imaginary numbers sub-dimensional?

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-20 23:28

>>32
Neither spelling is correct, idort. The correct spelling uses a character not found in English, and is "l'Hôpital". As such, all spellings using only English characters are incorrect. However, "l'Hospital" gets part marks for replacing the circumflex with an 's', as is usually the historic case, and "l'Hopital" better emulates its pronunciation. Dumbfuck. I can tell you're an EE with your shitty attitude.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-21 1:09

>>37
Calm the fuck down.

Name: !suqq7k.y1c 2007-12-21 1:17

wut?

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-21 4:38

>>37
OMG I CAEM AS YOU SPLIT THOSE HAIRS!

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-21 10:15

>>37

Actually, "L'Hôpital" is an anachronism.  L'Hospital himself lived before the ô notation came into use, and spelled his own name "L'Hospital".

I agree with you that >>32 is a dumbfuck.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-22 3:55

>>41

>>37
here. Looks like you're right.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-22 13:47

>>36
no, I vaguely remember a measure of dimensionality from my linear algebra class... and the complex number plane is clearly two-dimensional.  Real numbers are 1 dimensional, thus imaginary numbers are 1 dimensional.

>>37
no u

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-22 15:08

>>34
Nullity/0 = (0/0)/0 = 0/(0*0) = 0/0 = Nullity

Here's a question: What would a calculator/computer come up with as an answer for 1/0 if division by 0 wasn't predefined as an error?

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-22 15:20

>>44
Infinite loop.
Integer division implementations tend to work by repeatedly subtracting the divisor from the dividend until the divisor is smaller than the dividend, and counting how many times it subtracts.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-22 15:44

>>43
The complex line is of 1 complex dimension.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-22 22:30

>>44
What's sqrt(nullity) lololol

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-23 0:28

>>46
Troll

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-23 4:39

What makes perfect sets so perfect? I want to know guys

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-23 20:08

>>47
For easier typing purposes, I'm representing nullity with Ø
sqrt(Ø) = sqrt(0)/sqrt(0) = 0/0 = Ø

>>45
Therefore, x/0 = infinity, unless x = 0, which then = 0/0 = Ø.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-23 20:19

Nullity is a joke right?

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-24 1:51

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-24 1:52

>>52

See http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=H4Jw9DhSXeU for a non-realplayer version. This was on BBC.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-24 5:14

>>51
Anderson was serious, but it's a running joke in the mathematics community, yes.
Whether this means everyone on /sci/ realises this is a different matter.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-24 7:08

"If your heart pacemaker divides by zero, you're dead!"
O SHI-!

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-24 16:01

1/9 = .111111111111111...
2/9 = .222222222222222...
3/9 = .333333333333333...

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-24 16:16

>>56
Not again.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-24 18:23

>>54

Anderson is retard. He just invented new name for 0/0. He didn't solve anything. He didn't say anything about qualities of his supposed result (Nullity), apart that it is outside R. What good did he do by just renaming the (unknown) outcome of a problem? Do we know how to treat that supposed value? What if indeed, a pacemaker divides by zero and gets Nullity instead of an exception? Then what? How is that value to be interpreted and treated?

Btw. Proper unit testing ensures no divisions by zero (overflows, null pointers, etc) go unhandled.

Name: RedCream 2007-12-24 20:07

>>57
Oh, yes, again.  As often as possible, in fact, until the TRUTH of the statement is WIDELY accepted!

.
.
.
8/9 = .888888888888888...
9/9 = .999999999999999... = 1

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-24 23:46

e^(i*pi)-1=0
[bold]THE MOST REMARKABLE FORMULA IN MATH.[/bold]

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-25 2:08

>>59
Nu-uh. .9999... is .9999.... so it can't be 1.


LOL JK IM TROLLING LOLOLOL IM HILARIOUS, YES?

Name: RedCream 2007-12-25 12:49

>>61
DEAD WRONG, to wit:

1 = 9/9 = 9x(1/9) = 9x(0.111...) = 0.999... = 1

MAXIMUM PWNAGE!

>>60
And, YOU, fuckstick, should learn BBCode before we carve out your torso and make a stew of your organs for our feasting!

eπi-1=0

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-25 13:02

>>62
we've been through this before, and the conclusion is equal but different, just like negros and normal people.  0.999... is the negros.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-25 16:40

BBCode works here?

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-26 0:08

>>64
Yes it fag

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-26 1:16

>>63
3/6 and 2/4 are equal but different too, I assume?

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-26 19:27

>>63


Nope.
They're fucking equal, goddammit.

RedCream's "proof" is stupid.

Real numbers are defined as equivalence classes however you define them, and 1 and 0.999..... are in the same equivalence class and are therefore equal, under the mathematical usage of the word equal.

Name: RedCream 2007-12-27 2:08

>>67
RedCream's proof is entirely algebraic and as such is enough to establish the proof.  Seeking higher orders of proof violates Ockham's Razor, and as such, doesn't materially detract from RedCream's proof.

FAIL IS THINE.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-27 2:55

>>68
Your proof is essentially circular. You start by assuming 1/9 = 0.111..., and then show 0.999... = 1. While it's certainly true that 0.111... = 1/9, people who don't believe 0.999... = 1 obviously are not going to accept your proof anymore than they would accept "0.999... = 1 because I said so." They will simply resort to claiming 1/9 != 0.111...

The better algebraic proofs (or better still, analytic proofs) do not rely on the decimal expansions of other fractions.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-27 5:06

>>69
The problem isn't a need for better proofs, though; it's a need for less-retarded people.  Good luck satisfying that stipulation.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-27 6:02

>>34
nullity/0 = 7

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-27 11:41

>>68
Redcream's proof is entirely algebraic, and thus only right if you assume the property that you're trying to prove.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-27 14:57

ok, nau letz discuss why 0.999... = 1

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-27 15:04

>>73
tis a ghost of the mind, a child of ideas

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-27 17:08

Rock

Robot Rock

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-27 21:41

>>75
But it wasn't a rock!



It was a Rock LobALL GLORY TO HYPNOTOAD.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-27 21:52

>>68
Occam's Razor is not any criteria/on for validity or truth, but rather a general rule for pleasing Scottish Realists (most Americans follow Scottish Realism).

Name: RedCream 2007-12-27 23:39

>>69
That 1/9 = 0.111... is NOT an assumption.  It's easily calculated algebraically, and then by series theory it goes to infinity.

In short, it's true.  Deal with it!

Then on top of that, you plainly state:

"... it's certainly true that 0.111... = 1/9 ..."

M-A-X-I-M-U-M  P-W-N-A-G-E!

From your massfail and maxipwnage, the established truth of 1/9 = 0.111... simply leads to establishing irrevocably that:

0.999... = 1

It's true!  DEAL WITH IT!  Accept it, before it destroys you!

>>77
Ockam's Razor is a fundamental rule of the universe.  It's utterly and verifiably true that all other things being equal, the simpler explanation is likely to be correct.  Like poster #69, you're just wrong, and very wrongly so are you wrong.  Gawd, you're SO WRONG, it hurts!

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-28 1:36

>>78
My statement that "it's certainly true that 0.111... = 1/9" does not mean that fact is exempt from needing to be proved. Your proof starts with an assumption - a provable assumption, but an assumption nonetheless - which the "1 != 0.999..." fags obviously do not agree with.

Your proof is equivalent to proving Pi is irrational by saying "Pi/2 is irrational, and 2*x where x is irrational is trivially irrational, so Pi is irrational." It's vacuous, because someone questioning the irrationality of Pi would obviously question the irrationality of Pi/2 as well.

Lastly, with respect to "It's true!  DEAL WITH IT!  Accept it, before it destroys you!" - I never said it wasn't true, you mouth breathing inbred middle school drop out.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-28 2:01

we can all at least agree that 0.999... is a fag

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-28 3:05

Why was 1 afraid of 0.999...?
Because 0.999... is a doppelgänger that will kill him.

Name: RedCream 2007-12-28 3:55

>>79
Saying it's an assumption means that there's a baser proof that's required.  There is no such requirement.  What I submitted was perfectly acceptable and it hardly matters who squawks about it.

You may as well just say "morons won't accept your conclusion".  Well, DUH, Mr Obvious!  Morons can't be persuaded by logic in the first place.  That's why they're morons!

It remains fully true and undeniable that 0.999... = 1.  It's easily demonstrated and that's all I care about.  That you seek to expend more breath on pointless points is amusing and sad.

(In case you weren't keeping track, I just PWNED THE FUCK out of you again.)

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-28 6:26

>>82
I have followed this debate.  Your detractor's points were valid, but split hairs as the whole of the matter is the undeniable truth of .999...=1.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-28 8:17

>>82

You're an absolute idiot.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-28 10:38

Any two real numbers that do not have at least one other number between them are equal.  Any number larger than 1 is also larger than .9999~repeating, and any number smaller than .9999~repeating is also smaller than 1.  So lets go for x such that x>.9999~repeating and x<1.  For X to be less than one, it has to have no nonzero digits to the left of the decimal point.  For X to be bigger than .9999~repeating, it has to follow the following condition:

Either the first decimal point we are considering has to be bigger than the number we are comparing it to, or equal to the number and repeat the test for the next digit over (this is easily deduced by changing this to the sum of 1/(10)^n terms).  For a number to be bigger than .9999~repeating, this implies that every single digit has to be 9, all the way to infinity... just like .9999~repeating is.

So there can't be another number between .9999~repeating and 1, so both numbers are equal.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-28 12:43

>>82
Now I feel bad. As it turns out, I've done a disservice to mouth breathing inbred middle school dropouts everywhere.

"Saying it's an assumption means that there's a baser proof that's required.  There is no such requirement."

If it's acceptable to say "0.111... = 1/9" without proof, why not just simply state "0.999... = 1" without proof? Your "proof" that 0.999... = 1 depending on an assumption which you did not prove to be true.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-28 17:46

>>85
M-M-M-M-MONSTER KILL
KILL
KILL
KILL

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-28 18:16

Is there a form of math that assigns pi as a single, whole value instead of 3.141... I don't mean the π symbol, but instead, π = 1?

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-28 19:51

>>88
Nope. 1 is reserved for the multiplicative identity. π is not the multiplicative identity. For one thing, π^2 does not equal π, but 1^2=1. π is also not within the integers because all integers are rational, whereas π is not. π will always be a number between two numbers a and b such that such that ak-k-k=k and bk-k-k-k=k. We usually call those two numbers "3" and "4." Again, although the base-10 decimal system is purely artificial, the integers, ordering, and rational numbers is essential. The essence of a number is in its properties and how it is assigned values that it associates with in certain ways like in those binary functions required for fields.

Name: RedCream 2007-12-28 20:33

>>88
Ignore >>89 since he's made of fail.  Of course you could arbitrarily set π=1, by declaring that the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is exactly 1.  That's how we ended up with the speed of light being EXACTLY 299,792,458 m/s ... the meter itself was redefined to match an exact value of the speed of light.

In other words, merely divide the entire number line by π, and you get what you want.  You just have to accept that the number line you have now is based upon a UNIT which you've defined to be π.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-28 20:41

>>90
No, moron.  >>89 was right.  Pi still isn't an integer.  Sure you can arbitrarily redefine everything to fit a stupid idea, but if you set pi=1, you're not going to be happy with what 1 equals.  And the whole idea is made of fail.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-28 20:57

>>90

Um, won't we have problems with π^2 ?

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-28 21:41

>>90
If you modify the numbers that way, addition would work the same, but multiplication would be quite different under the new system.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-28 21:56

BITCHES DON'T KNOW 'BOUT MY MULTIPLICATIVE IDENTITY.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 2:31

>>82
not undeniable.  it's denied all the fucking time, because it is a queer and a fag

Name: RedCream 2007-12-29 3:44

>>91
You're the moron here.  If you simply define it to be 1, then it DOES become an integer.  As I said, just define the ratio of C to d as 1, and that becomes the basis for the number line.

We tolerate rotations being defined in units of 2π radians.  This can't be any different.

>>92
No, since π=1, then π2=1.

BTW, I am greatly enjoying this.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 4:44

I honestly did.'t mean π = 1 specifically, And changing all other numbers to match π was a closer approximation of what I meant.  It just seems that since π is our universes angular geometric stabilizer, that there should be a kind of math that treats π as a single whole number.  If π was expressed in angular degrees, for example, how would you express it?

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 6:10

>>96
With π=1, [1] would cease to be the multiplicative identity.
Also, [1] would not be an integer, because 'integer' refers to a specific idea in another number system.

>>97
uh, 180 of course

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 9:19

>>98

>>I honestly did.'t mean π = 1 specifically,

A 1/2 circle(180 degrees)=You're wrong.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 14:13

>>97
Think about it this way.
It π is greater than a number A such that
Ak=k+k+k
and less than a number B such that
Bk=k+Ak
Those numbers are called "3" and "4".
Moreover, let there be a number, call it D.
Then for any real x, (4D+4D+D+D)x=x i. e. 4D+4D+D+D is the multiplicative identity.
And a number C such that 4D+4D+D+D=C.
Then π must be between 3+C+D+D+D+D and 3+C+D+D+D+D+D

It is actually very arbitrary choosing D such that ten of them add up to the multiplicative identity. Indeed, I could have chosen any other base, perhaps base-7 if I wanted to. You can call it a "whole number" if you want, but it does not change the fact that that given the additive identity (call it "0"), and the multiplicative identity (call it "1"), and using the sets 1, 1+1, 1+1+1, ..., and the set -1, -1-1, -1-1-1, ..., that π would not be found on either of the lists.

The fact is that the term "whole number" is just that: a term. It is not anything other than that, and has no meaning other than its immediate definition of:
0 is within W
If a is within W, then a+1 is within W
Or the integers can have the definition of
All elements of W is within I
If a is within W, then -1*a is within I.
And for the rationals, R, define it to be all numbers r such that there exists two numbers within I, a and b, such that
ar=b.
π cannot be found in either of the lists.

The great fault in your thinking there is that while geometry does not do much multiplication, rescaling is no problem. "1" radian or degree or "2" radians or degrees have no meaning other than assigning something to a scale. However, the real line is not a scale. The distributive property is the very important property, (a+b)c=ab+ac. This is not used for scales, but it is used for all fields.

"there should be a kind of math that treats π as a single whole number"
There is no math that treats any number as a "single whole number." First, define "single whole number." Then we'll talk.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 14:15

>>96

Not true at all.

We define integers in terms of sets, rationals in terms of integers and reals in terms of rationals.

Pi is defined (the way I was taught) to be twice the smallest solution to the equation Cos x = 0

Cos x being defined in terms of a power series which follows from real analysis, which depends on how you have defined the real numbers.

Now this first root, however you define the integers, will always be between the third and fourth integer.

You can't just decide pi=1. If you want it to be the multiplicative identity, it's no longer the ratio of the circles circumference to it's diameter.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 15:57

>>99
You're a dipshit.  1/2 of a circle IS pi rad.  So pi in rad is 180, fuckhead.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 15:58

>>96 Oh, and by the way, you just got gang raped.

Name: RedCream 2007-12-29 16:02

Ah, I concede.  I failed hard, guys.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 16:33

kk people lets remember that i = -1 square root and pi = 3.14

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 16:39

>>105
π ≈ 3.14

Fixed, and lrn2charmap.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 18:23

Let's make a number system where imaginary numbers just fit in with irrational numbers and integers.  NO SEGREGATION.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 18:57

>>107
Not possible. They DON'T BELONG IN AN ORDERED FIELD.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 19:17

>>108
Oh, I get it.  You don't want blacks to play on the same field.  Fuck you, racist shit.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 19:23

>>108
If you were killed
Tommorow in a table -related accident
I wouldn't give a rats ass because I would
be sitting on my table.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 21:59

>>109
Actually, only numbers for which all numbers q such that q^2>0 are allowed on ordered fields. Yes, I agree that numbers for which its square is negative just don't belong on ordered fields.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 22:55

>>111
Is that a crack at blacks' abilities now?  Oh fuck this.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 22:55

YOOOOOU

THAT SOULJAH BOY

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-29 23:27

>>112
lol

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-30 3:41

>>100
"single whole number": number that is expressible without parts of the unit in the given base

what fuck else you thought he could have meant by that, but no you like to post angrily at others, grrrrrrr

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-30 10:39

>>115
Use precise words rather than vague ones. What is a "unit in the given base"?

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-31 15:52

>>1
imaginary numbers are imaginary, pie is a tasty treat that is certainly real.

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-31 19:56

gajillion is an imaginary number

Name: Anonymous 2007-12-31 23:20

>>116
right.  base refers to number of digit symbols.  unit refers to that amount we name 1.  You couldn't figure that out from the words given earlier?  maybe you are in a different country?  I know that there are some idiomatic differences in English from place to place.

Don't change these.
Name: Email:
Entire Thread Thread List