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VN engine

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 1:24

I though I could waste some time trying to make a visual novel engine on my own. So I'm looking for a OO language that has a decent 2D graphics library.

Tried Squeak yesterday. Slow as fuck and the morphs don't update unless you interact with them.

Any recommendations?

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 1:44

>>1
Aren't VNs slideshows or some shit? How can it be too slow for a slideshow? Just use Common Lisp with SDL, I guess.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-26 1:44

JavaScript +Canvas
C + SDL if more speed is required


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Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 1:50

>>1
Factor is what you're looking for.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 2:12

>>1
C and ncurses is what you're looking for.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 2:18

Python + Pygame

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 2:33

>>3
C
0/10

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 3:47

C# + XNA

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 4:07

>>5
Listen to this person. Just think about the advantages of such an approach, like being able to play the game over a SSH connection on your remote server. From everywhere.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 4:08

i made a directdraw wrapper for vbscript (msscript.ocx)

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 5:50

Why would you want to reimplement the wheel poorly!!

http://i31.tinypic.com/106j57b.jpg

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 5:52

Reimplement the wheel

Are you my teacher? lol

Name: Satori Master Anonymous 2009-07-26 6:05

>>12
Yes I am.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 10:14

I can tell you from experience, a VN engine is one of the least interesting projects you can possibly undertake. Once you've written the text printing mechanism (word wrapping and all that crap), the rest is just boring shit.

God help you if you try to duplicate an existing engine, most likely Japanese. You'll have to deal with such shit as Shift JIS encoding because the Japanese live in the 80s and don't know Unicode exists now.
If that wasn't enough, Japanese programmers of all sorts are terrible. Prepare to duplicate logic errors that contradict existing documentation (assuming you can find any).

C++ + SDL

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 11:02

>>14
According to WP, the Japanese have an aversion to Unicode. One problem being the Japanese and Chinese sharing code points for their ideographs

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 11:30

>>15
I feel more inclined to blame their xenophobic and reclusive culture.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 11:57

>>15
We could blame the bloated size (3+ bytes) of Japanese characters encoded in UTF-8, but I prefer to blame it on the fact that Japan is populated by greasy yellow slopes who will never get their hands on my watch.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 12:27

>>14
I'm not looking for a complicated or very challenging project, just something simple.

And no, I'm not trying to duplicate an existing engine. Just giving a try at making my own engine.

C++? Isn't /prog/ flaming Sepples on every ocassion it has?

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 12:34

>>18
Here's a verry good C++/SDL VN engine codebase for you to study.

http://svn.haeleth.net/onscr/trunk/

Please learn a lot!

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 12:55

>>18
Write it in Scheme with it's own custom BBCode Interpreter

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 13:01

>>15
>One problem being the Japanese and Chinese sharing code points for their ideographs
But that's irrelevant in modern systems because they can be set to display Japanese or Chinese characters depending on the user's locale.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 13:17

>>19
Study C++
Somebody is trying to kill you, >>18.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 15:19

Flash

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 15:27

My CS3 Flash is stuck in Polish

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 17:51

I agree with >>2, but VN engines are simple enough that you could code it in just about anything, so C++/SDL is not that bad of a choice either.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 19:31

>>11
Is that the SICP VN?

Name: 14 2009-07-26 19:36

>>18
C++? Isn't /prog/ flaming Sepples on every ocassion it has?
/prog/ is tsundere for C++. Every time it says anything bad about it, try to imagine it crossing its arms, looking away, and blushing.

Start by defining a set of features you want the engine to have. Then define how you want your users (scenario writers) to use those features. This includes defining the language. Then it's up to you how to continue. Some people prefer to implement from the bottom up, writing the lowest level infrastructure and building outwards; others prefer to implement from the top down, and write the upper level routines (such as the language interpreter or whatever you decide to use) first.

>>21
Locales are irrelevant for programs written to use Unicode (except for dates and such). What >>15 said would be like the British complaining about the Spanish using the same codepoints to write "hola" that they use to write "hello". If the Japanese really do think that, they're just crazy if they think the Unicode committee is going to allocate another fifty thousand codepoints to accommodate the same glyphs twice.
Not that they care because they don't export their software to begin with.
Not that we care because their software is shit, anyway.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 19:42

>>27
/prog/ is tsundere for C++.
This is what Ctards actually believe (spoiler tags stripped because this bullshit doesn't deserve BBCode).

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 19:53

>>28
I for one am fucking sick and tired of you fucking anti-C++ niggers fucking crying about a superior language used in real-world applications.  Go back to crying yourself to sleep and using your fucking nigger ((parentheses)) toy language, thanks.  Nigger.  In before ``back to /b/, please,'' etc.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 20:01

>>28
STOP CONFUSING C WITH C++ YOU FUCKING MORAN.
KILL YOURSELF AND STOP VISITING MY /prog/.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 20:16

>>27
/prog/ is tsundere for C++.
Maybe. Have you ever fallen head over heels with a girl only to get stuck in the friend zone for like a year, and then find out she's secretly a Southern Baptist preop transboy obsessed with the shitty local emo bands in all their tonedeaf glory? That's what happens to people who use C++. That's what's going to happen to you. Enjoy it while the illusion lasts!

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 20:22

Someone do a Sepples version of the "This is what using a mac feels like" kopipe

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 20:26

>>29
I can think of at least four things wrong with that sentence, even if we ignore the casual racism. Seriously, keep that shit in /b/ where people actually find it amusing.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 20:56

>>30
You okay there, buddy? Ctard is a blanket term for programmers taken with C, C++, D, and anything similar. I know because I invented it.

>>29
Not as sick as we are of Ctards acting like their languages are any good.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 21:19

>>34
This may surprise you, but I invented knowing about inventing.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 21:25

>>31
a girl
You lost me.

Can you put this in terms of 2D waifus?

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-26 21:42

>>34
oh, then ignore the part about confusing C with C++, and just skip to the suicide.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-27 15:16

>>37
suicide
This is what Ctardation does to you. :( You become an angry husk of a person from all the abuse.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-27 17:33

If C/C++ are so bad at producing code, why 99% of operating systems use them?



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Name: Anonymous 2009-07-27 17:47

>>39
C/C++ isn't bad at producing code. It's actually easy to spew hundreds of lines of code which don't do that much. Modern operating systems such as the Linux kernel or the NT kernel are written in C. They actually exercise pretty strict coding standards to maintain code quality. Reasons could be:
1)speed
2)everyone knows them and they are not hard to learn
3)good for low level programming, but portable enough

C++ adds additional ability to abstract, but it's a lot more broken in that regard than languages which were designed with that goal from the start, as it just tries to add features on top of C, which had different design goals.

The question is to the programmers, what do you gain by using C or C++ as the main language of your project, and what would you gain if you used another language, which could allow you to better express your ideas more efficiently.

A bit offtopic, but using Haskell or Lisp, does not mean you will code faster. You will write much less lines of code, and will end up doing the same task(but it will probably be in a different way than in C), or more than the equivalent of a different order of magnitude of C LoC.

The problem is that you can only code as fast as you can think, and you might find yourself spending time thinking about the problem a lot more than writing actual code, but once you understand what the problem is, the code will flow easily. In C you might end up writing all kinds of needed boilerplate code while eventually getting around to the core of your algorithm.
Interactive development can also speed up the coding process a lot, allow you to do live tests, and if done right, might make you not have to rewrite the entire thing when you found out some of your ideas were wrong.

Not all OSes are coded in C, remember Lisp Machines? And there's a few other newer projects which try to mirror some of the concepts.

The bottom line is that you use what works best for your mind and your patience, if C works best, use it, if Lisp or Haskell work better for you, use it.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-27 18:01

>>40
>equivalent of a different order of magnitude of C LoC.
I can type fast enough to write paragraphs of C code if i have a clear picture of what i'm writing.
>kinds of needed boilerplate code
C Libraries & wrapper functions were invented just for this.
>the core of your algorithm.
In the long-term it would need to be optimized. C compilers get better and faster every year. Everything else is dragging along and tries to compile to C as stopgap measure which makes them depend on C infrastructure.

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Name: Anonymous 2009-07-27 18:17

>I can type fast enough to write paragraphs of C code if i have a clear picture of what i'm writing.
When solving some complex abstract problems, it's much easier to get a clear idea when coding in languages with better abstraction facilities. Yes, you can do the same in C, but in a lot of cases, one might not notice certain ideas if he's thinking only in low level terms. Using a better language, does give you new perspectives onto things, even if you could rewrite it in C after some time(not a very common practice, but it can happen), you would still learn a lot of lessons by writing it in a more suitable language.

C Libraries & wrapper functions were invented just for this.
Really? Can you just make all the allocation code magically go away in C? Can you generate some code which will safely do I/O for you, without you having to think of it(except the first time when you wrote the code which does it). There are a lot of things which cannot be just removed in C, no matter how much we try, but it can be brought to a satisfactory stage after factoring the code enough.

In the long-term it would need to be optimized.
A lot of applications don't need blazing speed, otherwise they wouldn't be using C# and Java all over the place. Haskell and Lisp have pretty good native code compilers, most of the time, the generated code is fast enough that you don't have to bother to optimize it.
Everything else is dragging along and tries to compile to C as stopgap measure which makes them depend on C infrastructure.
Not really, there are many to-C compilers ( Haskell and Lisp both have one), but there's actually more (and better, when compared to directly compiling to C and then compiling that to gcc) efficient native code compilers.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-27 21:31

FrozenVoid, I insist that you stop using lines from the greatest 4X game of all time at once.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-27 21:34

>>39
no operating system uses "C/C++". some use C, some use sepples, some use both. but none use that fucked up half-sepples half-C language that some idiot invented because he thought sepples didn't fuck C up enough.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-27 21:48

>>44
3/10

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-28 2:04

>>43 Alpha Centauri is kinda inspiring. I wouldn't say its close to Velox Et Astrum but it has an influence.



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Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-28 4:59

In fact people get got so butthurt about C speed they invent conspiracy theories about it.
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DoMicroprocessorsLoveCee



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When despotism has established itself for ages in a country, as in France, it is not in the person of the king only that it resides. It has the appearance of being so in show, and in nominal authority; but it is not so in practice and in fact. It has its standard everywhere. Every office and department has its despotism, founded upon custom and usage. Every place has its Bastille, and every Bastille its despot. The original hereditary despotism resident in the person of the king, divides and sub-divides itself into a thousand shapes and forms, till at last the whole of it is acted by deputation. This was the case in France; and against this species of despotism, proceeding on through an endless labyrinth of office till the source of it is scarcely perceptible, there is no mode of redress. It strengthens itself by assuming the appearance of duty, and tyrannises under the pretence of obeying.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 6:10

>>47

Butthurt
I knew you were a /b/tard, now:
Back to /b/, please

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 8:58

>>47
Bleh. Even if we assume that's true, there's nothing wrong with creating a virtuous cycle for a language branch.
Language starts with low abstraction and high speed -> speed makes it popular -> popularity makes developers improve tools (compilers, debuggers, profilers) -> speed increases and writing in the language becomes easier -> popularity increases -> ...
The point of CPUs is to execute as many operations as possible in as little time as possible. If there's one language branch which is incredibly popular, it means more code will be written in it. If, say, 90% of all code is written in that branch, it's just common sense that you'll want your hardware to run that code as fast as possible.
Back when Lisp was more popular, some companies began manufacturing Lisp machines that were capable of running Lisp efficiently. If you were coding for speed, writing in anything other than Lisp for those machines would be stupid.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-28 9:15

>>49
>anything other than Lisp for those machines would be stupid.
Lisp Machine assembler. Also your Lisp machines were Epic Slowpokes. cf. below

With the onset of the "AI Winter" and the early beginnings of the "PC revolution" (which would gather steam and sweep away the minicomputer and workstation manufacturers), cheaper desktop PCs soon were able to run Lisp programs even faster than Lisp machines, without the use of special purpose hardware. Their high profit margin hardware business eliminated, most Lisp Machine manufacturers went out of business by the early 90s, leaving only software based companies like Lucid Inc. or hardware manufacturers who switched to software and services to avoid the crash. Besides Xerox, Symbolics is the only Lisp Machine company still operating today, selling the Open Genera Lisp Machine software environment as well as the Macsyma computer algebra system.

In the late 90s, there were plans by Sun Microsystems and other companies to build language-specific computers for Java, similar in concept and execution to the Lisp machines.

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Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 9:40

>>50
Well that's the inevitable progress of technology, especially give that the desktop computer market had more competitors to drive the innovation forward.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 9:47

>>50
My Lisp machines? What the fuck?

As for x86, that's another virtuous cycle. They're so massively popular that a lot of money is invested in improving them, which in turn makes them more popular.

Name: =+=*=F=R=O=Z=E=N==V=O=I=D=*=+= !frozEn/KIg 2009-07-28 9:51

I can Imagine: a 6Mhz 186 machine with limit of 1mb of ram,
crappy processors and DOS2 as operating system beating Lisp machines at their own field.



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Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 10:37

>>53
You've uncovered the dark secret of computing: Lisp is slower than Ruby.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 10:54

>>54
0/10

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 13:11

>>55
illegal operation divisor 0 .

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 13:15

>>56
It's a rating out of 10, it's not a mathematical expression.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 13:19

>>56
I don't think you understand division

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 13:28

java + swing

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 13:48

>>59
Swing my anus.

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 14:00

>>58
sorry , i just found out that i have AIDS after having my anus hacked by steve jobs .

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 14:31

>>57
YMHBT

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 18:55

I love visual novel.s My favorite right now is Saya no Uta*, which is a dramatic love story between a boy and a girl from different worlds, who meet a tragic end

* Uta means song

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 19:01

>>63
As much as I like VNs, don't you think this belongs in /jp/?

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 19:25

>>64
I think even /jp/ would reject this low-level trolling

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 19:31

What is a VN?

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 19:49

>>66
VVVVVVVVVVISUAL NOVEL

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 20:13

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 20:24

>>68
I burst with laugh when I read the OP's name. :(

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 20:45

>>68
I am disappoint

Name: Anonymous 2009-07-28 23:53

>>70
Back to /b/

Name: Anonymous 2010-11-14 4:27


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