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Fads

Name: Sussman 2009-05-25 15:44

LISP? Haskel? Are you retarded? C++ is where it's at. /prog/ is full of fanboys. Name something LISP can do that you can't code in C. Case closed.

Name: Anonymous 2009-05-25 15:48

Technology: World's "Fastest" Small Web Server Released, Based On LISP

"John Fremlin has released what he believes to be the worlds fastest webserver for small dynamic content, teepeedee2. It is written entirely in LISP, the world's second oldest high-level programming language. He gave a talk at the Tokyo Linux Users Group last year, with benchmarks, which he says demonstrate that "functional programming languages can beat C"[1]

___
[1] - http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/25/1553220

Name: Anonymous 2009-05-25 15:49

>>1
Macros; thread over.

Name: Anonymous 2009-05-25 15:56

>>2
>>3
YHBT

Name: Anonymous 2009-05-25 15:57

>>2
Fater than lighttpd with php? My momma is faster than lighttpd with php.

Name: Anonymous 2009-05-25 16:25

>>4
If you ever, ever feel the need to post YHBT on /prog/, chances are rather high that YHBMT, or that you are simply new around here.

Name: Leah Culver !1LEahRIBg. 2009-05-25 16:37

>>1
advocating C++, but defending straight C
WHDBT
also >>3

Name: Anonymous 2009-05-25 16:41

>>7
Dumbly?

Name: Anonymous 2009-05-25 19:38

>>8
I think 'doubly' would fit better

Name: Anonymous 2009-05-25 19:46

>>9
Is it when the troll constant is a double floating point number?

Name: Anonymous 2009-05-25 22:15

>>10
A likely hypothesis if the trolling was constant but the reviewer, Mr >>7, did not specify the type of troll transfer function. However, judging by the low trolling rate of the post, I would tend to see it as logarithmic or even inferior. Perhaps k/(T^4) with a fairly low value of k.

Name: Anonymous 2009-05-26 4:34

>>6
What's the one after meta-trolled ?

Name: Anonymous 2009-05-26 8:09

>>1
there are lots of things you can do in c that you can't do in sepples.

Name: Anonymous 2009-05-26 8:24

>>1
C and Lisp are both Turing complete

Name: Anonymous 2009-05-26 8:49

>>13
What, for example?
Aside from writting non-shitty code lol

Name: Anonymous 2009-05-26 11:38

>>14
Greenspun's 10th.

Name: Pi 2009-09-30 3:24


John Fremlin recognized he did not make any benchmarks against more serious contenders.

Here are some benchmarks that show that John's claims were, at least, a bit daring:

http://trustleap.com/imgs/ULib_keep-alives.gif
http://trustleap.com/imgs/ULib_NO_keep-alives.gif

(John said that ULib and John's server have similar performances)

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 3:59

There is nothing a general-purpose assembler/machine code can't do that C do. The difference lies in the amount of work and effort a programmer has to put in to get what he wants.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 4:00

s/C do/C can do/

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 4:34

hey lispers.
post some things that lisp can do but are impossible in C.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 4:40

>>17
What are the axes supposed to represent?

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 4:44

>>20
There is nothing Lisp can do, that C can't, it's just that some things are considerably a lot more work than normal. You have very fine control of how compilation/evaluation works in Lisp, as opposed to C, and the language's homoiconicity allows for useful stuff like macros or meta-circular evaluators. Here's a very distilled example I posted in another thread not long ago:
http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1254286846/19

You can greenspun everything in C, but with a lot more effort than if you were to just use Lisp. Why would you go to such effort, when there's perfectly good solutions already exist?
A whole class of problems can be made much easier by defining your own DSL's, which you can only very clumsily(and not in all cases) do in C using preprocessor macros(and it looks ugly and has many limits). So I'll throw back a question at you, why code it in C and spend so much time and effort to do something that can be done much easily in a Lisp-based language? (Even other high-level languages make it much easier, but few to none have the power that Lisp macros offer).

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 4:46

>>22
Efficiency.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 4:59

>>23
You can write fairly efficient Lisp code (aproaching C speeds) if you need to, but to do this you usually need to know your Lisp implementation to some degree(you have to declare types, so the compiler could optimize better, maybe use some internal routines, inline stuff, write compiler-macros and give the compiler other advise). It may end up cleaner than the C version, but it may also end up more complex. The general rule regarding efficiency and optimization in Lisp is that you do this:
1)Write the most clear/obvious version
2)Profile and locate bottlenecks
3)See if better algorithmic optimizations can be performed, if so, do them, and go back to 2
4)Start doing micro-optimizations if 3 failed. Type declarations, compiler-macros, other tricks. If not enough, continue to 5
5)Implementation-specific optimizations
 - Use internal implementation functions
 - Inline C code may be permitted by some implementations(ECL)
 - Inline assembly may be permitted by some impementations(SBCL,CCL)
6)If 5 or 4 are not satisfactory, you could just write the high-performance part in asm or C and link with it using an FFI.

When your application has no bottlenecks or all its code-paths need to be micro-optimized, you're probably better off coding it in C. Lisp is also great as a prototyping language, which is much harder to say for C.

P.S.:High-performance libraries have been written in Lisp(for a quick example, search for SB-MD5) that approach C levels in speeds. They use implementation-specific tricks for achieving speed.

tl;dr: Lisp is more of a language for solving problems you don't yet now how to fully solve, or where performance isn't critical. You can achieve high-performance in Lisp, if you know your implementation well, but it's not what you usually use Lisp for. If you're writing an application whose design you fully well know, and all code-paths require maximum performance that you can squeeze, just use C or assembler.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 8:15

>>23
why are newbie programmers always obsessed with performance? it's not 1985 anymore.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 8:29

>>25
Good programmers upgrade their computer when they want their code to run faster.
You upgrade your computer because your old one is unable to handle the stress of running your "modern", high-level, resource hogging code.

We upgrade because we feel like it. You have no choice but to buy new parts all the time.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 8:39

>>26
You still don't understand that Lisp isn't as slow as you think it is. Even if on average(if you didn't optimize anything), it could be some 3-4 times as slow, it would make no difference. Are all your applications that performance hungry?
Also, Lisp code is very easy to refactor and improve, so you can just improve your algorithm if you reach a bottleneck somewhere. Equivalent C code can take a lot more time to write
on average, which makes it less desirable for prototyping code.
This is a discussion which has been repeated hundreds of times around the internet, so I'll just say one thing: Linear vs logarithmic speed gains.

Do you know why I upgraded my computer last time? It was for a high-performance application that was written in asm with a bit of C. The upgrade gave a clear linear increase in performance and was what I needed. Using Asm or C doesn't mean you don't have to upgrade.

And for things that need really high-performance? Just make your application parallelizable and run it on multiple cores, and increase the core count until enough.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 8:46

>>27
Does relative performance between languages count? Heck, no, or Java wouldn't be synonymous with ENTERPRIZE.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 9:22

>Good programmers upgrade their computer when they want their code to run faster.
That what LISPfags actually believe.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 9:37

I single handedly destroyed the haskell community,

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 9:49

R.I.P >>30, i see the Haskellian guard dogs reached him before he managed to tell his tale.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 11:06

>>1
Fads?
Lisp is a family of languages, and it appeared in 1958, making it the second oldest programming language. It's been here for long enough.
Haskell appeared in 1990, but concepts which led to its creation are from the 70's and later.

These are mature languages.

Name: TRUE TRUTH EXPERT !tQq1sLlmuk 2009-09-30 12:56

>>32
i THINK YOU SHOULD SHUT UP. lISP ISN'T THE SECOND OLDEST PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE YOU DUMBASS. fORTRAN IS OLDER AND FORTRAN IS NOT THE FIRST LANGUAGE INVENTED! eVEN IF THAT WERE TRUE, LISP WOULDN'T BE THE SECOND OLDEST PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE SIMPLY BECAUSE IT ISN'T A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE TO BEGIN WITH! iT'S A FA MI LY OF PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES, WITH MULTITUDES OF BEHAVIORAL MODELS. dEFINE `LONG ENOUGH'. hASKELL ISN'T A MATURE LANGUAGE. iF I GAVE YOU AN APPLE WHICH CLEARLY ISN'T MATURE AND CLAIM IT IS MATURE BECAUSE THE TREE IS MATURE (OLD), WOULDN'T YOU THINK i'M A FOOL? wELL IT'S THE SAME FUCKING THING EXCEPT THE TREE IS THE IDEAS AND CONCEPTS USED IN hASKELL WHILE THE APPLE IS hASKELL ITSELF. oH, AND OUR ROLES GOT SWITCHED.

BURN.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 13:09

>>33
I had some hopes for the "TRUE TRUTH EXPERT", but you just keep getting less amusing
0/10 and filtered

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 13:14

>>33
It's a family of languages now. Lisp 1.5 goes earlier than 1967, and is the language from where MacLisp derived, from there came Lisp Machine Lisp and other languages, which eventually led to the standardization of Common Lisp. CL retains many of the features Lisp 1.5 had, so I think you could clearly say that it's one of the oldest languages, even if CL is not that old itself (CLTL1, CLTL2(based on ANSI CL, before completion of the standardization process) then Ansi CL(based on CLTL1)). Fortran is the oldest language, but of course people had formal notations for many things which resembled programming languages even before then. Do you want to call it second oldest real/implemented language?

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 13:50

>>35
How about calling it the second-oldest languages still in use?

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 14:04

derp

Name: TRUE TRUTH EXPERT !tQq1sLlmuk 2009-09-30 14:18

>>34
sEND FUNDS TO TRUE.TRUTH.EXPERT@TOOTIEFROOT.IE (*) TO SUPPORT A /prog/ WITH LESS PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE QUALITY OF MY POSTS NOW!


* DON'T E-MAIL ME UNLESS YOU WANT TO DONATE!

Name: TRUE TRUTH EXPERT !tQq1sLlmuk 2009-09-30 14:23

>>35
fORTRAN IS THE FIRST WIDELY USED HIGH-LEVEL LANGUAGE. i THINK YOU'RE AN IDIOT WITH NO COMMON SENSE FOR THE FEW HISTORIC BITS HE'S BEEN ABLE TO MEMORIZE.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 16:04

Hullo, what are the differences between common LISt Processing and scheme dialect?

greetz

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 16:07

>>40
okay lesson one
in computer numbers are binary
so they are liek 010011101003010
or they are like adbagcbf then they are haxadecimal
you may also say 0xnumber to be hax
but they are harder so you must binary
so computer goes faster (no translate time)
you may also use other languages because
what i said is assembler what computer speaks you have to use assembler but can use other languages
like c (with the ++ extension maybe for serious programing) or pascal or javascript (java in short) or maybe haskell but i dont understnad it it has no loops so i dont konw how it works you cant code with no loops
get it so far?

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 16:14

>>40
Scheme is a minimalist Lisp, mostly used for teaching and good for embedding in other applications, but many people use it for real work too.

Common Lisp is an industrial-strength Lisp, multi-paradigm programming language with a rich library, and many features.

However, some Scheme implementations do have enough extensions to reach and maybe exceed the size of Common Lisp, at the same time, there's many portable(and less portable) libraries for Common Lisp.

The technical differences are too many too list, so I'll link you this instead http://c2.com/cgi/wiki$?LispSchemeDifferences

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 16:57

>>42


    What about ;aaaaaaaaaaa

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 17:09

many people use it for real work too

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 17:18

>>44

I LOL'd too

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 19:54

LISP? Haskel? Are you retarded? Delphi is where it's at. /prog/ is full of fanboys. Name something LISP can do that you can't code in Pascal. Case closed.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 21:35

I like Clojure because it has the popularity of LISP and the elegance of the JVM.

Name: Anonymous 2009-09-30 21:57

>>47
Humour in my /prog/?

Name: Anonymous 2009-10-01 4:25

>>46
I can ask it for the 0th element of a vector/array

Name: Anonymous 2009-10-01 6:46

>>1
One word; the forced parenthisation of code. Thread over.

Name: TRUE TRUTH EXPERT !tQq1sLlmuk 2009-10-01 7:51

>>49
oNE OBVIOUS SOLUTION THAT IDIOTS LIKE YOU NEVER THINK IS TO ALTER THE MACHINES POINTER BALANCE TO -1 WHEN RUNNING FORTRAN PROGRAMS. oNCE THE BALANCE IS TANGLED WITH, YOU CAN ACHIEVE TWO-WAY COMPLETE POINTREE ON OBJECTS OR EVEN FIT INTEGERS/CHUNKS OF SMALL DATA IN THERE! lIKE lElISP HAS DONE, AND lISP1.5 BEFORE THAT, AND OTHER lISP IMPLEMENTATIONS WHICH FAVORED RESERVED CONS CELL BITS.
>>50
aCTUALLY, YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE ANY PARENTHESES AT ALL IN cOMMUNE lISP, IF YOU BOTHER ALTERING THE READTABLE. bUT LAZY FUCKS LIKE YOU NEVER READ A BOOK, THAT'S WHY THERE'S nothing ON IT!

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-19 4:47

>>51
are you dead?

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-19 5:25

>>39
The lambda-calculus is older

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-19 5:44

>>53
you've activated my function

TRAP CARD

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-19 14:48

You car'd my cuddership!

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-19 21:13

>>55
Thinking further on it, this describes * functions like append* et cetera.

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-19 22:52

Why are you guys so hung up about computers? I mean no one knows how windows came into existence, so why argue about it? Computers talk in 1's and 0's, it's completely illegible! Stop trying to understand them and get back to doing something important!

Name: Anonymous 2010-01-19 23:43

Why are you guys so hung up about vaginas? I mean no one knows how females came into existence, so why argue about it? Girls talk in lyke's and omg's, it's completely illegible! Stop trying to hit that shit and get back to hacking!

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