Can anyone recommend any good books/blogs/websites on the subject of GUI design and usability, I'm getting to the stage now when I'm finding it hard to present all the necessary options to the user in a clear and concise way.
Menu bars generally have poor names for their menus and this should be improved, so they can fulfill their enormous potential for awesomeness.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-12 19:05
USEIT LOL
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-12 23:29
>>24 their enormous potential for awesomeness
Which would be? It's kind of neat that by typing Alt+key, key, you get hotkeys which are documented right in the program, but it's not like they are documented at all well. If you made it necessary to hold Alt the whole time and refrained from adding other hotkeys it would be sort of cool, but you're still stuck with a bunch of difficult to navigate lists.
>>26
You just answered your own question (well, kind of): if you pressed F1 (or something) and it showed documentation about the menu item you've selected, and made the menus easier to navigate, awesomeness would ensue.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-13 16:54
F1 is soooooo 1990's. All my programs use F12 for help, it's more original and it's at a safer place on the keyboard.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-13 22:18
>>29
That would in no way fix the problem, which is that menus are huge linear lists (hard to point to) of commands grouped in whatever way the designer thought was most logical, but which is guaranteed not to be obvious to users, including the designer at some later date.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-13 22:33
>>31
But you can navigate so quickly through menus that any decent grouping of their commands goes a long way.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 0:20
>>32
No, you can't navigate quickly through them, and there is no way to group them decently; that's my point.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 0:49
>>33
I don't think you have a point. Enjoy your nondiscoverable functionality.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 1:12
>>34
Scuse me? I'd rather enjoy my command browser which can be easily searched without lengthy manual labor.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 1:31
Tons of software allows the user to reconfigure the toolbars and menus. That's great for somebody who's already familiar with the program and wants faster access to things he knows about.
There is no way to make a program easier for novices.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 3:52
>>36
Reconfiguration of toolbars and menus is a terrible idea. Now a person can't move from computer to computer without either setting everything up like their home computer or searching the menus like a novice, which I estimate to take no less than four seconds per menu, unless it's got submenus or collapses like the extra-horrible menus in Windows 2k—then it takes even longer.
The solution is to make it possible to execute any text as a command (say, by middle clicking it), and to provide an area at the top of the screen to type commands where Fitts's law makes them easy to click. Then, since no one can be expected to remember every command a large system supports, there must be a fully searchable command browser in which commands are tagged and fully documented rather than organized heirarchically. Commands can, of course, be executed directly from the browser. Imagine if Acme swallowed Emacs then got infected with classic Mac OS, and you'll pretty much have it.
This will make the program easier for novices and experts alike.
Name:
OP2008-08-14 5:14
>>37
Generally software that allows the user to edit the toolbars and menus also has an option for saving presets and reverting to default layout so that sort of removes this problem.
---
I think many of the challenges in interface design stem from working out a good hierarchy for the menus and toolbars, which controls should be grouped together for maximum efficiency, where would a user expect to find submenus related to various functions. The two most obvious solutions would be to either conduct a sort of 'time and motion' study of how the user interacts with the interface or as stated above straight copy the interface conventions of similar popular software.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 5:18
>>38
It removes no problem. If you configure the menus you'll not have your configuration when you use another computer, unless you reconfigure them completely, which would be a huge pain in the ass.
--
Not at all, these things are completely unrelated to good interface design, because a good interface would not include menus, submenus, toolbars, or heirarchical groups of controls. They are only relevant if you're such a poor designer that you're stuck on fumbling around the dead end we're stuck in.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 5:51
>>39
Yes true, I suppose one possible alternative would be to provide a selection of presets that are geared towards certain tasks and generalised user-profiles (Notepad replacement/Web Development/Programming in a text editor for example).
---
Yes, I admit that I don't intend to spark a paradigm shift in GUI metaphors, sorry if I gave that impression. It is however an interesting subject, are there any avenues that you have explored in terms of novel GUIs that I should look into?
There is no way to make a program easier for novices.
There is, you just haven't bothered looking past your Windows-based nose to see it. It's something completely unknown to any Windows application. It's called good documentation.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 16:48
>>40
No, then you're still just adding excessive configuration options rather than doing you job as a designer.
----
You should look at Plan 9's UI (which you can run on Linux now http://swtch.com/9vx/ ), especially the Acme text editor, from which I get the "every word is a command" idea and read Jef Raskin's The Humane Interface (which I just found in ebook form http://www.mediafire.com/?su4aj57dxlz (it's funny how many of the things in this book echo what I was already thinking)). Acme, and to a lesser degree the rest of Plan 9, is the most "different but awesome" UI I know of, while THI lays out Raskin's best idea for a UI, with justification for everything (some of which I don't agree with, but it's all good to think about).
>>45
What's your point? Was there somewhere I said that all his conclusions are good, or did I explicitly say that I don't agree with him on everything? Regardless of what you think of his zoomworld shit (and his no-files "document character" idea, oh lawd), he wrote a great book that explains the lines along which a designer must evaluate their interface if they want to be anything other than a wanker, as well as providing a "case study" to ruminate on.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 18:27
>>47
My point is he was a wanker and modeless UI is a shitty idea.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 18:47
>>48
I should have asked, "Is this relevant to the thread, or is it just your way of saying you've read the ZUI Specification?"
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 18:51
heres a good book on gui design:
dont design a gui u fucktwit; guis are evil and the only interface i want is a textual one. TUI > GUI.
ncurses interfaces considered sexual.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 19:01
>>49
Anyone that comes up with such an incredibly shitty idea and believes it's great until his very last breath can not be anything other than a wanker.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 19:07
>>51
Excellent logic there. Let's learn more from this enlightened one.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 19:12
>>52
Better than learning more from a shitty modeless UI peddler.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 21:03
>>51
The issue here is that you're too dumb to see where he's coming from. When he actually tried out these ideas in a product, they worked great. He extrapolated according to the needs of a more modern system, and I'm sure his interface would work great for certain applications. I suspect that since the amount of local data we're likely to deal with has multiplied a couple million times, not to mention everything on the Internet, this wouldn't scale. But since this UI was never completed (the people carrying the torch don't seem to be a crack team of programmers), no one can say how well it would work out. Especially not you. For all we know, it would be every bit as good as he thought.
Anyway, here's how science works: a researcher with his team develops a theory for several decades until the experiment is finished. You might not call UI design science, but that's just why I don't have any respect for your opinions. In this case, the experiment was never finished, and the results are up in the air. Modelessness in general is pretty nifty.
>>54
UI design is as much a science as software engineering or phrenology.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-14 23:10
it's amazing how clumsy most "modern" software feels after using vi. you'd think that after 30 years people would have realized that modal text-based interfaces are vastly superior to graphical ones that make you move the mouse several feet to do what you can do without moving your fingers off the home row in vi.
That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!That was VIP quality!
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-15 0:21
>>56
I'm going to have to disagree with your assertion that GUI design is phrenology.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-15 0:41
>>62
I'm going to have to take offense at your inability to parse a simple sentence.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-15 2:18
>>63
I'm going to have to point out your inability to construct one.
>>66
When you reenter the realm of sanity, I'll be right here waiting for you.
Name:
Anonymous2008-08-15 18:09
Date Umbrage Taken
Friday 15th August 2008 21694
Thursday 14th August 2008 5222
Wednesday 13th August 2008 9605
Tuesday 12th August 2008 4575
Monday 11th August 2008 6226
Sunday 10th August 2008 6094
Saturday 9th August 2008 12850
Friday 8th August 2008 5428
Thursday 7th August 2008 6335
Wednesday 6th August 2008 4405
Tuesday 5th August 2008 109