I recently changed my major to comp sci, and plan on taking an emphasis on software engineering. Right now my only problem is having a job while going to school, in that all jobs I can find suck, at least with my resume. Are there any certifications/training I could get that is relative quick to get (i.e. not the BSc I'm going for) that would help tremendously in getting a job somewhere close to related to my field of study?
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Anonymous2008-07-07 13:47
I recently changed my major to comp sci, and plan on taking an emphasis on software engineering.
Maybe you should've changed your major to software engineering then, fucktard.
Are there any certifications/training I could get that is relative quick to get (i.e. not the BSc I'm going for) that would help tremendously in getting a job somewhere close to related to my field of study?
You already failed in life.
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Anonymous2008-07-07 14:07
>>2 Maybe you should've changed your major to software engineering then, fucktard.
What kind a major would that be, you ENTERPRISE fucktard?
You already failed in life.
He failed because he's looking to get certifications on top of a college degree?
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Anonymous2008-07-07 14:16
>>3 What kind a major would that be, you ENTERPRISE fucktard?
A pretty boring one, I've heard. But he said he ``plans on taking an emphasis on software engineering'', so probably choosing computer science as his major wasn't a very bright idea.
He failed because he's looking to get certifications on top of a college degree?
If he's willing to go for a job that counts a `certification' as an advantage, he is either naïve or in it for the money that he will never see.
>>4 But he said he ``plans on taking an emphasis on software engineering'', so probably choosing computer science as his major wasn't a very bright idea.
how is this a bad choice? software engineering is a subset of computer science.
If he's willing to go for a job that counts a `certification' as an advantage, he is either naïve or in it for the money that he will never see.
QFT.
Certs aren't really important when it comes to programming positions (assuming OP plans on programming since he chose comp sci). However, DBAs and Sysadmins could benefit from certain certs (which are also valid career paths for a comp sci grad)
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Anonymous2008-07-07 19:02
Having interviewed others when seeking to hire fulltime software developers, I can tell you first-hand that a major in Comp Sci means abso-fucking-lutely nothing. Nobody respects it, and it teaches you nothing.
One of my questions: "Real basically, how does a hash table work?"
Funniest response (from a master's in Comp Sci, no less): "Well, you see, it uses a series of recursive hash buckets."
>>9
Who cares how it works? The important part is, you can work with it and use it efficiently.
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Anonymous2008-07-07 20:12
>>9
I got asked how I'd implement a doubly-linked list when I actually got an interview, and gave them the hashmap code I'd written in C the previous weekend. And they thought I was smart enough for a job (despite having no degree or certifications).
That said, it was hard as fuck to get an interview. While I imagine it doesn't make that much of a difference once you're at that point, getting there without that fucking piece of paper is a bit of a nightmare.
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Anonymous2008-07-07 20:14
>>12
That's exactly what your mother said last night!
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Anonymous2008-07-07 20:18
>>14
That's exactly what your sister said last night!
>>13
I don't get this mentality. Isn't it more important to understand the principles behind data structures and algorithms than to be able to call up implementations of them on command like a trained seal?
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Anonymous2008-07-07 21:15
>>17
Being able to implement them effectively shows a more thorough understanding. Can you tell me, for example, why you might choose to implement an associative array as a B-tree instead of a hashmap?
I can, because I'm Winston Churchill.
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Anonymous2008-07-07 21:31
>>18
O(logm(n)) lookup time. where m is the depth of the tree.
vs.
O(1) [theoretical] lookup time. [theoretical] meaning that collisions screw you up big time.
amirite? i'm not trying to answer your question fully, just seeing if i'm recalling correctly information i never fully learned in the first place.
>>17 Isn't it more important to understand the principles behind data structures and algorithms than to be able to call up implementations of them on command like a trained seal?
Yes and no.
It is, in fact, important to know the deep, deep secrets of data structures and algorithms, but you should also be able to implement the easy ones with little problem - linked lists, AVL trees, dikjstra's (however the hell you spell his name) etc.
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Anonymous2008-07-07 22:08
>>19 O(logm(n)) lookup time. where m is the depth of the tree.
I was wrong. B Trees have a depth of logm(n) where each nonleaf node has m-1 keys.
References
1. Weiss, Mark Allen. Data Structures and Algorithm Analysis in C++, Third Edition. Addison-Wesley, 2005. ISBN 0-321-44146-X. Chapter 4: Trees, pp.159-164.
>>8 how is this a bad choice? software engineering is a subset of computer science.
And perfumery is a subset of chemistry?
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Anonymous2008-07-08 1:44
OP: few suggestions.
First, even if a job lists a whole bunch load of crap that you have no experience, apply anyways. Generally, companies (and especially government) will list unnecessary skills so that they so that they can avoid discrimination law suits (or they're simply trying to get an excuse to outsource), and also it's easier (legally) to fire someone who doesn't quite meet every requirement in the job description.
Second, stay away from certification. No one cares. They barely care about your degree, no one gives a shit about some piece of shit cert. Only exception is for sysadmins for unix, where RHCE's make decent bank.
Third, you could look for smaller companies no one's ever heard of. Then, learn their product *before* applying, maybe use it/test it, and have specific changes you could make in the cover letter/interview. I got my first job this way freshman year in college when I had no experience.
Fourth, you could apply for jobs that support programmers-- QA, release engineering, etc-- at a mid-size company. A friend of mine applied as a QA engineer at a security system company with 50 employees and moved his way up the food chain.
Fifth, you could apply for a job at a research lab. Biologists in particular are a) computer illiterate, and b) extremely well funded, so you might want to take 1 or 2 biology courses while still in college. Usually these jobs offer more creative freedom because no one know shit about computers (and therefore you're the resident genius), but generally pay is weaker and you might have to do shit jobs like sysadmin/etc.
now, i'm not saying that every parfume manufacturer hires a team of hot-shot chemists, but yes, it does take some sort of know-how to get all that shit together to produce a fragrance. much in the same manner that it requires some know-how when designing and engineering an application.
at the same time, not all parfumists are chemists and not all software engineers are computer scientists. my original statement of ``software engineering is a subset of computer science" is based on the "lineage" of software engineering.
software engineering was birthed from programming, programming was birthed from computer science, comp sci was birthed from applied math.
are all computer scientists considered mathematicians? are all software engineers considered computer scientists? fuck no. but software engineering is a subset of comp sci just like comp sci is a subset of math.
not to mention, accredited universities offer comp sci degrees with ``an emphasis on software engineering" as OP stated (my own university added this curriculum 2 years ago).
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Anonymous2008-07-08 2:17
>>25 ADDENDUM
and I'm still unclear as to why someone would say that computer science is the wrong major for a software engineer.
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Anonymous2008-07-08 2:23
>>25 >>26
Software engineering is not a subset of computer science. Software engineering includes release engineering, design methodologies, coding standards, testing, writing/gathering use cases, etc. that computer science doesn't give a fuck about.
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Anonymous2008-07-08 8:00
Fifth, you could apply for a job at a research lab. Usually these jobs offer more creative freedom because no one know shit about computers
Seconded. I work in physics, they know how to do some basic programming in prototyping languages (MATLAB mainly), but to them I'm a wizard and I conjure the spirits of the computer with my spells like a motherfucker. I get to do things however I want as long as it works, and it's well appreciated
The sysadmin/tech part is shitty but fairly small, and sometimes I can outsource it to people who want to learn (eg: making the website, thank God I don't have to do that).
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Anonymous2008-07-08 8:53
>>27
so what? it doesn't change the fact that computer science has lead us to software engineering. without computer science, we'd never have software engineering.
maybe ``subset" is the wrong word here. maybe i should be saying ``branch" or ``derivative."
but my argument still stands - you can't have software engineering without a base in programming and you can't have programming without a base in computer science.
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Anonymous2008-07-08 10:18
>>29
Who are you arguing with? SE is not a subset of CS. No one in this thread has said that there isn't some kind of connection between them, like between chemistry and perfurmery or hydrodynamics and plumbing.
>>29
"so what? it doesn't change the fact that computer science has lead us to software engineering. without computer science, we'd never have software engineering."
Just because computer scientists were some of the earliest software engineers doesn't mean SE is a subset of CS. By your logic, if anal sex was first discovered and practiced by mathematicians, then anal sex would be a subset of math.
Get an internship. Go to companies asking for one. Don't think that any magic bullet (like bullshit certs that only Geek Squad and shit like that want) will help you.
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Anonymous2008-07-09 2:49
>>29
Really, it's irrelevant. Today, computer science is serious programming training, and anything calling itself ``software engineering'' is enterprise bullshit. To say that OP is making a mistake by choosing CS over it is you betray your enterprise/trollish nature.
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Anonymous2008-07-09 3:56
Don't ever, ever use the word "certified" your resume. It's far and away one of the most prominent red flags in resume screening, bordering on a dead-giveaway round-file 86-that-bad-boy no-review-required situation, if you know what I mean. (If you don't know what I mean, well, you know the old saying about not knowing who the sucker is at the poker table.)
Certification is for the weak. It's something that flags you as a technician when you really want to be an engineer. If you want to be a television repairman, you can become certified in TV repair. If you want to work for Sony and design their next big-screen TV, then you clearly don't need a busy-working-adults course on how to repair the fugging things.
Same goes for tech certification. It means you had to take a course to learn something you could have read in a book. If you know something, just say you know it, and then be prepared to answer questions about it during your phone screens and/or interviews. If you feel compelled to add that you're certified in said skill, it's just broadcasting that you lack confidence in your own self-assessments, which doesn't help you in the slightest.
Seriously. Take all mentions of certifications off your tech resume. It's actively hurting your chances of getting an interview.
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Anonymous2008-07-09 17:05
I have to do resume screening and technical interviews; when we're hiring in junior roles the resume is pretty much pointless, except where the institution is known to be exceptionally good (or bad) -- unless you can show something that indicates you have something different to offer beyond the normal level of having been taught jack shit in Java.
Projects, self directed learning, open source activity... That sort of thing. Oh, and if you have decent OCaml and Python, I could point you at a UK based vacancy.
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Penis2008-07-09 17:29
1. No one cares about certs. A monkey can get certs. Certs are shit, clear? DO NOT put them on your resume unless you're applying for a shit job.
2. Your degree/school/whatever matters. Your minor can be important too if it shows you are "different." I got my job with a major in Politics, tons of experience, and then they said "huh, a minor in math, that's odd."
3. Your experience matters more. In particular, what did you do while dicking around on the internets? Write any apps? Tell em you wrote a client/server app in C, for example, or that you spent a year writing an interpreter or whatever. Something. Initiative matters.
4. Your ability to give a decent interview matters. Don't be cocky, answer the questions (and if you start rambling don't worry---just say "hrm, i'm not sure I answered your question, could you repeat it?" people want answers, not your life story). Be friendly, but not overly so. Be respectful, but don't suck their dick. Wear a good suit, bring a notepad and take notes, ask questions. An interview is a two-way street. If I am interviewing someone and they don't ask shit I tend to think they're idiots.
If you are looking for a job with a computer company expect to be asked very technical questions. Study up beforehand but don't spazz out if you don't know the answer---just work through it and tell em how you are working through it. The correct answer is NOT relevant.
For example, a good friend of mine is a genius mathematician who has since moved into the corporate world in IT. When he grilled PhDs he would ask something completely irrelevant, like, "alright, so how many gas stations are in the US, anyway?" There'd be some dumbass up there saying "what, that has nothing to do with my dissertation, I can't answer that," not realizing he just wanted to know how they would handle a question they didn't know the answer to.
AND FOR GODS SAKE IF SOMEONE ASKS YOU WHAT YOU WOULD DO IF A TEAMMATE WAS FALLING BEHIND AND YOU HAD A DEADLINE SAY YOU WOULD STEP UP AND TAKE CARE OF IT _BUT_ YOU WOULD ALSO MAKE SURE YOU WOULD TRY YOUR BEST TO HELP YOUR TEAMMATE UNDERSTAND SHIT. People are looking for someone who will benefit their orginization for decades, not some nerd who will just come in and do something. That's what contractors are for. Besides, you're going to spend most of your time anyway trying to figure out how to deal with and worth with other people. Your coding will be minimal compared to that.
I interviewed someone recently... started off well... obviously smart and capable. Then halfway through he says "yeah I'd like to start my own business in a few years". FAIL. Sorry, but I got better things to do than train some dumbass for several years only to see him leave the company.
5. No one cares about what you know. They care about what you can learn. Any monkey can say they know Java, but so what?
Show that you know multiple language and systems or, better yet, show that you don't care about languages, that you're better than mere languages. Any programmer worth their salt can program in anything on any system with little more than a reference book.
6. A smart interviewer will ask you what your favorite language is. Why? It's a test. The proper answer is LISP but "who cares about syntax" will do. Don't just sit there and say "LOLJAVA". That's epic fail.
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Anonymous2008-07-09 17:54
>>38
Those are excellent points. I will copy this text. Thank you. thumbup.gif
>>42
You mean >>41 was posted by one person, and one person alone?
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Anonymous2008-07-10 1:35
>>41-43
In addition to having been trolled constantly, these three posters are, in fact, the same person.
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Anonymous2008-07-10 1:52
>>44 >>43 here, I'm a different person from anyone you could possibly be thinking of. Unless you're assuming that they are the same as me, in which case they are the different (possibly identical to one another) persons.