why does java suck?

I've noticed in the short time I've been reading this board that there's a lot of java bashing, so I was wondering why people actually think it is so bad. I'm no java fan, but I've used it for some stuff before and it didn't seem terrible to me. An argument used to be that it runs slow as a guro-fied loli, but they've improved a lot in that aspect.

Please give good reasons, rather than stuff like "it's for certified professional consultants" or whatever you guys say.

But, isn't a 3D engine a realtime task?

Only loosely. I didn't mean real-time as in real-time rendering, I meant real-time as in soft and hard guarantees.

When I was teaching myself data structures, I did it in java. Why? Because there were lots of good java books for it

This: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0201000237/
This: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0201000296/
This: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262032937/
And this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0201485419/

These are the books for data structures. Not one of them uses Java inside. Whatever your reason for using Java, it's bunk.

let me do my own memory management comment

Why aren't you using C/ObjC/C++ then? If you strip out the GC, what you're left with isn't Java, except in the most tenuous sense.

why doesn't somebody do a compiler for all of these languages like python to compile to java bytecode.

Because they have syntax and semantics. If you mean the same target for several compilers, there's Parrot or (zomg!) x86.

Wait, forget everything I wrote in >>121.

Let me rephrase: you have no idea what you're talking about. Lots of words, little understanding.

Funny, apparently was level of understanding is good enough to get me through my job and through college.

Seriously, you guys spend way too much over this mental masterbation of 'java bad! java bad!'

Ok, java isn't perfect. I haven't come across a perfect language yet. Since you usually have to decide between two mutually exclusive options, I don't know if the 'perfect' language is possible.

And hey, come on! I liked the idea of byte code and JIT, and all that crazy anti-hacker restrictions on java.

Oh, and as for the GC? Strip it out and you've still got Java. References aren't pointers. Oh, and you still got some crazy lingo in there. Besides, Java isn't the only C-like language.
C++,Objective C, D,.... and soo on....

I'm not giving up on yacc or lex anytime soon because of java and I don't think that any open-source C projects are going to be porting themselves anytime soon.

This 'java sucks' fascination comes out of some decent language being hyped up, therefore causing an instinctual desire in some people to say, 'that's not so great!'

Java doesn't have to be the perfect language. It's not faster than assembly. Ok. It's slower than it should be, in everybody's opinion. Ok, let's fix it or wait for it to be fixed. JNI uses some new method that halved call time. All sorts of things get changed all the time to speed up the implementation. Swing used to be bitch ass slow. Now, it's mediocre. Why? Apparently they use more native calls instead of using all java. Now, they can even use some hardware acceleration. Hey, that's just what I read. Don't shoot the messenger. Maybe in the future, they'll get it all right.

Don't use java to write quake 5. Use java to write your p2p application interface into your p2p core. Use java to write your multiplayer 2D adventure RPG game that you want to be able to play with your friends that use Windows and Mac and Solaris and FreeBSD instead of 1334 linux. (Sorry, even compiling library specific code between unixes can be a complete bitch sometimes)

Look, sorry. I'm not going to villify something that's useful. Something like java.   

That said, I'm also to mention that Java is not very innovative as a language itself, but it is innovative as a 'huge'mongeous class library, a security model, and a virtual machine.

I hope for your sake you're just trolling.

If you're serious, you're hopelessly clueless. There's no way you've left high-school yet either.

>>125
LOL, he trolled
>>124
Go sleep biatch!

>>124
wins

| Hey, that's just what I read.
Yes, read a lot of Sun garbage.

>>124
You mean the "huge" class library that provides less functionality than other base class libraries?
The broken security model?
Virtual machines which are nothing new?

Java doesn't get any faster because of it's optimization. It get's faster becuase the CPU speed is increasing. That's what my friend thought anyway.

Now that's interesting.

The security model has workarounds? Give me some links; I'd like to see them.

Other languages with virtual machines that integrate into web browsers? I'm always open-minded to new avenues. Tell me about some. I'll go look into them.

Hey, if there is a utility knife for general tasks out there that's a little bit sharper, I won't mind using it.

As things stand however, java is the only language that fits the bill for many of my programming tasks. I'm perfectly willing to use it until I find something else, and I'm not interested in any of that 'c/assembly is faster' or 'python is better structured'. I can't run python on a webpage and even if I could; it wouldn't make a darn bit of sense for me to completely start over on any of my projects unless there is some real benefit to doing so. As such, java makes it easy for me to port objects from program to program, on the web or on any operating system, with little trouble, reusing interfaces and classes. Until I get something that can allow me to do the same thing, more easily (not that concerned about speed,) then I really couldn't care about switching to anything else for non-time intensive tasks.

I use C++ at work. Maybe you only get really bitter about java until after you've been forced to use it?

>>115
You still don't get it, do you?
It's the API we hate! THE FUCKING API! It's WORTHLESS!

As well as the crappy language design. And the crappy bloated shit built around it in J2EE. And the sub-par garbage collector. And the sub-par platform (in)compatibility.

Working on Java is a pain in the arse and it's absolutely unproductive. It gets large projects to fail because it's a fucking nightmare.


>>118
I program in python
And you still like Java? Are we talking the same Python here?


>>120
why doesn't somebody do a compiler for all of these languages like python to compile to java bytecode
Because:
1. You don't know Jython.
2. Python requires the interpreter. You wouldn't be able to eval or do some things if you totally compiled it and got rid of the interpreter.
3. Java's VM is inferior.
4. If you're still going to bother writing a Python compiler, write a decent compiler. We don't want Python running on the Java VM. Either use another VM, or write a native x86 compiler.


>>123
I liked the idea of byte code and JIT, and all that crazy anti-hacker restrictions on java.
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Don't use java to write quake 5.
I wouldn't use Java to write Quake 5 because of it's piece of shit APIs, not because it'd be fucking slow.


>>130
No shit Sherlock!

Oh but are we still discussing speed? AHHH MOTHERFUCKERS I CAN'T STAND YOU! Oops. Well, I think speed is not the big bad deal of Java.


>>131
Other languages with virtual machines that integrate into web browsers?
Uh, have you any remote idea what are you talking about?

Hey, if there is a utility knife for general tasks out there that's a little bit sharper, I won't mind using it.
Java's API is not an utility knife. It's a stone carved Swiss army-like knife complete with a lava lamp and a cellular, weighting 180 Kg.

As things stand however, java is the only language that fits the bill for many of my programming tasks.
Do you write professional business solutions? If so, Visual Basic is an alternative.

I can't run python on a webpage and even if I could
Are you talking about Java applets? I hope not, they failed long ago. Java runs in the server side, so does Python.

java makes it easy for me to port objects from program to program
Welcome to structured or OOP programming, discovered some thirty years ago and found in any langauge today.

Maybe you only get really bitter about java until after you've been forced to use it?
You get really bitter about life after you've been forced to use Java.

Other languages with virtual machines that integrate into web browsers?

1997 called. They want their shitty applets back.

Applets > stupid "AJAX" shit

Oh, don't tell me you've been defending Java to write one hundred line applets...

Well, I just have to write 100 lines of code because I can frickin' reuse my code, classes and interfaces, from everywhere else in that applet, because each was written in java.

>>134
I'd say the opposite.

As much as I dislike AJAX, there's a reason nobody uses applets anymore. Good riddance, I say.

>>134
>>136
Hahaha, oh wow. Super fail.

java supporter here, but totally agree with >>137 and >>138.

java suck so hard that ieeexplore uses java web containers and java search engines in order to build a fully scalable solution.

this thread ends here and now. java has its place.

NEED MORE ENTERPRISE!!!
Meanwhile, This thread is now about Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the USS ENTERPRISE.

>>141
Kirk > Picard.

>>140
It's completely awesome how they have this huge cluster that has to be cycle restarted all the time because the servers keep falling over

>>136
Yes, because Java allows you to reuse code. Sun invented code reutilisation.

I like the bald man better

Once you can look at lemonparty, goatse and tubgirl without flinching then you might, I say 'might', be ready to stare into the gaping maw of java.

>>144
That's the most stupid thing I ever heard and I heard that a lot!

>>147

He's not being serious you dolt.

>>26

I concur.

RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE, NECKBEARDS

>>150
back to your blog, FrozenVoid

Okay, before we go too off-track: Java is reviled by some programmers for:

1) Lack of pointers and direct programmer-memory interaction
2) Slowness, caused by:
2a) Overly specialized object hierarchy
2b) Overly complicated implementation
2c) Compiling and interpreting conversion
[Slowness by the GC is a new one.  Never heard someone bring up that before.]
3) Extensive but convoluted GUI set-up
4) Limited class inheritance rules (extend 1 class, implement X interfaces)

Other points in this article remain contestable, but these are the basics.

One thing I don't recall us bringing up is a question of precedence: is there a language that does satisfactory OOP?

>>152
Smalltalk, CLOS and its brethren (Objective-C, TinyCLOS, Flavors, SCOOPS)

>>3
no multiple inheritance
WAHBT

>>152
satisfactory OOP
I started to doubt such a thing exists a long time ago. Even if you can find a way to use OOP in a manner you find acceptable (and the language that offers such manner), you'd better be doing it in a solo project, because otherwise BEST PRACTICE faggots will shove their bureaucracy down your throat so hard you'll be shitting UML diagrams for a month.

>>155
I work for Allstate and I'm currently on a team programing a UML compiler because my boss is an idiot.

>>156
JASON! YOU'RE FIRED!

>>156
UML compiler
Σ(ﾟДﾟ )

>>152
Slowness by the GC is a new one.  Never heard someone bring up that before.
Then you clearly know very little about Java performance. Why should we trust the rest of your post? In fact, GC thrashing is a huge factor in performance problems of many large-scale Java apps.

Three years, and we still hold much the same opinions about Java. Some things just never change...