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Why the fuck aren't you Libertarian yet?

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-13 6:02

Seriously, what's wrong with you?

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-13 8:11

What's wrong with you? You access a government designed technology using govt regulated computer parts, powered with regulated and possibly subsidized energy, in you house made according to govt safety regulations and probably are sipping on a beverage regulated by the road,hassles,or fda.  I'm not a linerrarian because I actually understand how the world works.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-13 8:34

>>2
1: Strawman fallacies, libertarians don't want most of those things. If regulations serve justice enforcement purposes then they're fine, libertarians believe that is the purpose of the state.
2: Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, just because the state funded one tiny technology decades ago doesn't mean that everything which uses that technology depends on the state, chances are the private sector would have developed it a year later anyway.
3: Subsidies do not come out of thin air and market forces will simply react to the changes, because people are paying more tax or their businesses cannot afford to pay them higher wages they won't be able to use more energy anyway in the long term, all polices like this accomplish is more pork spending, bureaucracy, kickbacks and loss of economic freedom for ordinary people.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-13 11:17

>>3
Every time a corporation was involved in making something big (like the Rand Corporation with ARPANET (which later became the Internet) it involved the government facilitating that (DARPA). There is no way a corporation just by itself with R&D could have had the vision to create the foundations that paved the way for the Internet what we have now (I'm not saying the private sector doesn't at least deserve a pat on the back). The fact that developing packet switching networks because we were pretty close to having a nuclear holocaust with the former Soviet Union seems to miss the minds of libertarians.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-14 1:06

>>2
>2011
>Still believes that libertarians want anarchy rather than a government that isn't completely out of control.
>Either still wants a government that is completely out of control, or is too ignorant to realize that it is so.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-14 3:49

yes, vote Ron Paul for president and kill niggers

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-14 6:53

Because I believe people need to be told what to do.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-14 14:06

>>3
>If regulations serve justice enforcement purposes then they're fine, libertarians believe that is the purpose of the state.
um no. All regulations are bad, if regulations served a purpose then they would be done by the free market.

>>4
Liberal statist spotted. Go be a willing slave somewhere else.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-14 18:36

>>5
>2011
>Still using straw man (where did I use the word anarchy or pretend that libertarians don't want govt to enforce the law? Oh right I didn't)
>Either has no argument or is in actual fact mentally challenged

>>3

You may not want safety regulations since you have them already but I'm sure that if they were removed you would change your tune.  Like having exits in every building? Fire alarms?  Cars that don't topple over by design?  Seat belts? Etc?  To say you wouldn't want safety regulations is just absurd. 



Using latin words also doesn't make your argument any more legitimate.  The fact is that the government directly funded research for much of the technology we make use of today, including the internet.  You're argument is essentially this : "Govt may have made the internet but anyone could have done that" which is false, the government has much more investment power than any single corporation and no corporation was funding on it's own similar technology, or in other words your argument is the assumption that the private sector would have done it anyways regardless of the fact that there is no evidence to suggest this.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-14 18:37

>>8
Anarcho-capitalist spotted, go be a tyrannical dickhead somewhere else. 


Ad hominem attacks are both fun and easy!

Too bad they don't accomplish a single thing.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-14 19:43

Why the fuck aren't you Libertarian yet?
Because I'm not 19.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-14 23:11

>>10
>Statist calling an anti statist tyrannical
LOLOLOLOL

>>11
Hmm the same could be said about liberals/most leftist ideologies that are in the current high school/college indoctrination camps.

I don't know why so many kids fall for the Marxist/Communist crap, ITS COOL BEING A REBEL RIGHT GUISE FUCK CAPITALISM LETS JUST GO PROTEST WITH OUR HOT TOPIC CLOTHES AND THEN GO GET SOME COFFEE AT STARBUCKS HERP DERP.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-14 23:22

>>9

a govt monopoly throwing money at things =/= entrepreneurs making the investment work the way it does now.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-14 23:40

>>12
It's easy. They see the government as a tool to impose what they want. They want mommy and daddy to take care of them forever and force everyone to agree with them.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-15 0:28

>>12

Eh, the rich can fight for their own rights.

Working class person who holds down to jobs to make a simple living here. I'm okay with some moderate libertarian beliefs, but overly paranoid libertarians can go fuck themselves.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-15 9:57

>>12
An anarchist pretending he doesn't support tyranny
LOLOLOLOLOL

Name: AnarchistSage !VoonmBZbSs 2011-08-15 17:51

>>16
Anarchist =/= Anti Statist/Anarcho-Cap

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-15 17:54

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-15 18:19

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-15 20:04

>>8
Liberal statist spotted. Go be a willing slave somewhere else.
Ah, argument lacking substance confirmed.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-15 21:08

>>16
Every anarchist is a mini tyrant waiting to happen.

Name: RedCream 2011-08-16 0:49

And with a limited government, none of those mini tyrants can get very far.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-16 9:10

>>22
What a novel delusion. The robber barons of the 19th and early 20th century sure got far.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-16 10:13

>>22
History seems to disagree with you

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-16 10:36

because i'm not a psychotic, self absorbed narcissist

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-16 22:32

>>23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI43mAFjOM8
look up "myth of the robber barons"
>>24
example?
>>25
"When someone wishes to be so altruistic that they say, “I think there should be universal healthcare” - that’s not “just their opinion”. This person wants you to have your options restricted, and have you be forced to pay for it. Now if you believe some people ought to be forced to pay for things because that will make things better, that’s a position to be presented and defended. But it is NOT “just an opinion” to be casually bandied about as most collectivists may believe.

An Act of State is An Act of War"

Were psychotic because we don't wish to impose our will on others?

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-17 0:33

>>26
Now if you believe some people ought to be forced to pay for things because that will make things better, that’s a position to be presented and defended.
Then, by that logic, there should be nothing wrong with universal health care, and an absolute right to education (including university level education). Having shitty for-profit health care, and shitty for-profit expensive education are the antithesis to having a fulfilling life, and not having access to both are fundamentally harmful to society.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-17 17:31

>>27
Then, by that logic, there should be nothing wrong with universal health care
IF, IF you can defend it, you haven't shown why it would work, and even if it would if there is at least 1 person who disagrees with it it can never be "universal" and cant implement it without it being imposed on another.
And i seriously doubt that's going to happen.

Having shitty for-profit health care, and shitty for-profit expensive education
You think even in your "universal health care utopia" people wont work for profit even if the profit is "feeling good"? People do things for profit all the time, right now you are trying to convince me of universal health care so you can profit from it by having one more person support it. Now you can say that everyone profits from it but nevertheless you profit from it.

This is why i think people that loathe profit are stupid, they never define "profit" and if they do why is their definition any different/better than mine?

Now if you desired health-care for everyone in a society/community that EVERYONE supports it then there is no problem since everyone there is willing to pay for it, but the problem begins when people say "universal" and wish for people who don't want in to pay for it.

and not having access to both are fundamentally harmful to society.
[citation needed]

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-17 19:09

>>28
You seem to have randomly redefined what "universal health care" means. It means everyone receives the same coverage regardless of what they can pay, not that everyone agrees that it's the best system.

loathe profit
Who the fuck loathes profit?

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-17 19:20

Libertarianism is anarchy for rich people.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-17 19:41

Libertarianism is infallible.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-17 19:59

>>29
You seem to have randomly redefined what "universal health care" means. It means everyone receives the same coverage regardless of what they can pay, not that everyone agrees that it's the best system.
EVERYONE
That's still your preference there would still be health-care systems that will give different types of care depending on how much you pay. Would you shut these places down because they don't adhere to your idea that EVERYONE should receive the same coverage?
If you take away the different types of coverage then there is no incentive to pay anything above the minimum cost to receive the healthcare that you would if you payed regularly which would cause funding problems for the institution.

Who the fuck loathes profit?
People who correlate that systems run on profit are shit.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-17 20:00

>>30
because the rich TOTALLY LOVE free markets right?

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-17 20:37

>>28
Now if you desired health-care for everyone in a society/community that EVERYONE supports it then there is no problem since everyone there is willing to pay for it, but the problem begins when people say "universal" and wish for people who don't want in to pay for it.
Ignoring your redefined definition of what "universal health care" is, throughout history, nearly every time progress was made in a particular instance, there was always fervent opposition to it. The introduction of Social Security is one good example. Opponents, foaming at the mouth, would claim all all sorts of wrongs and ills using egregious fallacies. Today, a huge majority of people support Social Security because they realize the good it does for society.

I support government intervention, only, and if only, it benefits society. DHS, National Security and others pretend to benefit society, but for nefarious reasons, do not. I don't support that kind of intervention.

and not having access to both are fundamentally harmful to society.[citation needed]
It should be obvious. The United States lags and lacks behind other Western World nations in education. We're at number 22 in rank last I checked, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that education isn't as valued both culturally, institutionally, and politically these days. Naturally, having terribly unfunded and under subsidized education causes a long-term brain drain for the country. This is incredibly harmful to society, and will only get worse until those who deny it finally admit it and publicly address it.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-17 20:38

>>32
People who correlate that systems run on profit are shit.
Nobody made that correlation. It's just that some systems are shit when they're run for profit.

Would you shut these places down because they don't adhere to your idea that EVERYONE should receive the same coverage?
You mean shut down health care facilities for taking payment that isn't from a hypothetical government program? I don't think anyone wants that.

Name: 32 2011-08-17 20:53

>>35
Nobody made that correlation. It's just that some systems are shit when they're run for profit.
I agree. I have no problem with profit for other things that aren't directly related to a person's health. But when you have profit-run entities that directly affect people's well-being and survivability, people do things that they wouldn't normally do under a not-for-profit health care system.

People don't even have to be "money hungry" or "evil", it's an institutional problem that correlates with the fact that profit is the motive, and not being specifically aimed at looking out for the welfare of the public's health in and of itself.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-17 23:05

>>34
Today, a huge majority of people support Social Security because they realize the good it does for society.
good
That doesn't mean everyone supports it and as long as they are forced to pay for it it is theft.

I support government intervention, only, and if only, it benefits society. DHS, National Security and others pretend to benefit society, but for nefarious reasons, do not. I don't support that kind of intervention.
With that logic you can almost justify all government action as benefiting society the problem is when people disagree with what your preferences are and you are in the majority. In this system the majority can always impose their will on the minority (democracy). You might say the constitution is supposed to prevent that but the majority control even that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_DBy34NRlY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoGLqKRPRt0

It should be obvious. The United States lags and lacks behind other Western World nations in education. We're at number 22 in rank last I checked, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that education isn't as valued both culturally, institutionally, and politically these days. Naturally, having terribly unfunded and under subsidized education causes a long-term brain drain for the country. This is incredibly harmful to society, and will only get worse until those who deny it finally admit it and publicly address it.

Only problem with your theory is that we don't truly have a free market in the US and many institutions are government funded which lowers the incentive for good results and instead only give the minimum requirement of work. (EX:Teachers unions)

>>36
I agree. I have no problem with profit for other things that aren't directly related to a person's health. But when you have profit-run entities that directly affect people's well-being and survivability, people do things that they wouldn't normally do under a not-for-profit health care system.
Well everyone doesn't value health like you do, so why is your value more important than someone elses?
People don't even have to be "money hungry" or "evil", it's an institutional problem that correlates with the fact that profit is the motive, and not being specifically aimed at looking out for the welfare of the public's health in and of itself.
explain

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-17 23:21

Libertarianism is just a way for rich people to get away with evil shit.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-18 0:54

>>37
With that logic you can almost justify all government action as benefiting society
I wouldn't say that, because I don't think in black and white like libertarians do. There are many shades of gray, and things are a lot more interconnected than you realize. It's not all government regulation = bad, free market = perfect, and government regulation = perfect, free market = never, ever good. It's not even so much as a balance rather than where free markets work good, and where government regulation is needed. More often than not, government regulation is needed than not.
the problem is when people disagree with what your preferences are and you are in the majority. In this system the majority can always impose their will on the minority (democracy). You might say the constitution is supposed to prevent that but the majority control even that.
Checks and balances. They're there for a reason, to protect people from their duly elected morons, and from themselves. For fuck's sake, to even amend the constitution, you need 3/4th of the state legislatures and Congress to pass. There's so much overhead, that I wouldn't even worry about it. Are you sure we're talking about the same constitution here? Have you even read it?
Only problem with your theory is that we don't truly have a free market in the US and many institutions are government funded which lowers the incentive for good results and instead only give the minimum requirement of work. (EX:Teachers unions)
Free market? Neither do most Western countries. EU member states are collectively regulated tighter than the US is, both from EU governance itself, and from its constituent governments. Finland, for example, has free full university education, and they consistently rank within the top 5 in the world for education excellence. Their secondary education is funded through the regional governments, and the national government, it's not a free market per the common definition among American libertarians. How would you then explain this correlation? It would seem that if education is properly and efficiently subsidized, education excellence will increase dramatically.
Well everyone doesn't value health like you do, so why is your value more important than someone elses?
Realistically, no. But, of course, they should. Not only for the fact that doing so makes it less expensive for everyone else, but also for the fact that they'll be living much more fulfilling lives. Ignoring things like genetics, because for some, no matter how healthy you try to remain, there are genetic factors that affect health, and you can never really get rid of those. That doesn't mean that treatment for them should be at a charge that only a few can afford.
People don't even have to be "money hungry" or "evil", it's an institutional problem that correlates with the fact that profit is the motive, and not being specifically aimed at looking out for the welfare of the public's health in and of itself.explain
Under the current for-profit institution, people will make stark rationalizations based on arbitrary situations like patients being denied insurance coverage for "pre-existing conditions", patients being denied certain treatments because the expense to administer them is more than what the patient (or their insurance) can afford to dish out, etc. It's simply the profit motive, not people's evil intent that makes health care such a mediocre, horribly over-priced sector. You cannot ever purge health care of these problems even in principle, unless you completely expunge it as a for-profit enterprise. However, if you still insist on having private health care, even countries that have universal health care also have private health care as well. If you can afford the private health care for yourself, by all means, knock yourself out.

Name: Anonymous 2011-08-18 2:18

Most critics don't know or understand libertarianism let alone basic economics and government.

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