Should the holocaust be re-examined?

First of all I don't hate jews at all, I know most jews are honest good people and have been brainwashed into the (in my opinion) Holocaust hoax just as much as everyone else. In fact I don't hate any race, I think all races should live independently in their own democratic sovereign nations. I support a homeland for the Jews just as I do for the Palestineans.

Anyways no event in history should be exempt from scholarly review, we still research things that happened 2000 years ago, why is the Holocaust the one event throughout history that is unquestionable? Why do people who express different views from the mainstream imprisoned? Shouldn't information be available and scrutinized by the public? Surely simple logic would prove or disprove the validity and legitimacy of such information, why don't the mainstream media and scholars let logic determine the outcome for itself, surely if there is nothing to hide then an open debate that examines all sides of the story will prove that the official story of the holocaust is true would it not? Why is the investigation of the Holocaust only carried out by an extremely small number of people (most jews.) Surely this can't lead to an unbiased reflection of reality, the jews after all had large problems with Germans long before Hitler took power.

Is it really fair to imprison people just for having a different view?

Please read / watch with an open mind and decide for yourself.


****Articles**** (FIRST ONE RECOMMENDED! PLEASE READ)
Did 6 million really die? (There are multiple parts, check the bottom left)
http://www.ihr.org/books/harwood/dsmrd01.html

A look at a German concentration camp ? Bergen Belsen
http://ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n3p23_Weber.html

Jewish deaths in German concentration camps
http://ihr.org/jhr/v11/v11p335_Nordling.html
http://ihr.org/jhr/v02/v02p219_Buchner.html

Holocaust reparation payments, etc.
http://ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n6p19_reparations.html
http://ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p243_Weber.html
http://natvan.com/free-speech/fs0010d.html
http://natvan.com/free-speech/fs987c.html

****VIDEO****
http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/

**** Unrelated to the Holocaust****
Control of the mass media
http://natvan.com/who-rules-america/index.html

The Jewish role in the Bolshevik revolution
http://ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html

Germany in the mid and late 1930?s
http://ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p299_Degrelle.html

?Crystal Night?
http://ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p183_Weckert.html

German attack on the Soviet Union
http://ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n3p40_Michaels.html

The behavior of the Germans in occupied Paris
http://ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p376_Lutton.html

Basically, I agree with your position. It happened, but there is a

MONOPOLY on 6 Million.

I suggest you read The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein.

millions of bodies magically appeared out of nowhere

>>3

Real and tragic event used and exploited for pithy political ends is more provocative.

should my cunt be reexamined

>>3

what millions?  i believe jews were targeted and killed in WWII, but as i understand it, there's never been any serious examination of the grave sites.  don't you find this even a little odd?

Piles of bodies, piles of ash, piles of clothing, all documented and photographed and proven.  And then "revisionists" say things like "I haven't seem them personally" or "those photos were all manipulated."  If people exhumed the mass graves and put the bodies in museums face it still wouldn't count as proof for the revisionist true believer.

>>7
| "Piles of bodies, piles of ash, piles of clothing, all documented and photographed and proven."

sure, but how does that prove six million?  even Raul Hilberg thinks the real number isn't six million. 

| And then "revisionists" say things like "I haven't seem them personally" or "those photos were all manipulated."

who has said this?  this is a crime scene.  aren't you supposed to examine a crime scene?  it's not at all unreasonable.  what if they look at the graves and it turns out only 250,000 jewish people were killed.  granted 1 would be a tragedy, but wouldn't that be important to know?

|If people exhumed the mass graves and put the bodies in museums face it still wouldn't count as proof for the revisionist true believer.

this is a baseless and prejudicial assertion.  we know more about tsunamis that happened in the 1700s than what's inside those mass graves.

http://www.honestmediatoday.com/JDW.wmv

This is one of the more cited videos.  The guy presents himself as  a professional researcher, using his personal visit and observations as evidence, using a camo guy with a lighter on three phonebooks as a scientific test, and making great claims about forgeries with no sources.  Yet a lot of people on the Internet are convinced of the statements as "truth" and repeatedly post it, until it becomes a believed meme. 

I haven't seen any of the millions of bullet casings from World War II, nor have I seen any World War II tanks or planes whose wreckage should still be around the landscape due to the millions that were produced. 

If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.  But don't call it science.

>>9

| "If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.  But don't call it science."

loooollll that's the best post I read all day.  Forensic experts over the last twenty years have worked to exhume and examine graves in Argentina, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Ethiopia, Mexico, and Iraqi Kurdistan. Exhumations in Argentina, for example, helped show that many of the thousands of civilians who disappeared during the juntas had been executed; that forensic evidence was presented during the 1985 trial of nine Argentine generals, five of whom were later convicted.

In recent years, forensic teams have exhumed mass graves in Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia, some of the largest graves yet discovered. Evidence from the exhumations will be a key part of upcoming war crimes cases. For example, evidence from graves like Cerska, combined with witness testimony, would be part of the case against former Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic and army commander Gen. Ratko Mladic.

Exhumed graves in Germany?  ZERO.  BTW I don't give a shit who that guy is and there's no way i'm watching his video. 

The Jews exaggerate their so called "suffering" over the generations to create sympathy for them.

>>2
As a revisionist, I don't think the Holocaust happened at all. As in, no planned (or unplanned) extermination of European Jewry was performed. It has become a fucking full blown religion. I've read the most important Holocaustianity bibles, I've read most of the revisionists' works, and there's essentially 0 proof other than kooky obviously inconsistent eyewitnesses.
I do not believe in the existence of homicidal gas chambers because there is no proof of it, and there is also proof against it (forensic evidence -- Rudolf Report).

Also, let's see what the leading Holocaustianity priest says about the 'planned' bit:

But what began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned in advance, not organized centrally by any agency. There was no blueprint and there was no budget for destructive measures. They [these measures] were taken step by step, one step at a time. Thus came about not so much a plan being carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus -- mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy.

(Quoted in: George De Wan, "The Holocaust in Perspective," Newsday (Long Island, New York), Feb. 23, 1983, p. II/3. Also quoted in the Summer 1985 Journal, pp. 170-171.)

So, basically, it's a fringe conspiracy theory, just like 9/11 truthers try to push. Or we could also call it a religion, since so many temples have been built for it. It's mimicking Christianity quite well.

>>3
You're lying about millions of bodies, or have been misinformed. It is likely hearsay from your Hollywood perception of Nazis.

>>7
Piles of bodies? Not that many, and they essentially died out of either disease and starvation. The German government broke down and the end of the war and couldn't supply food and medicine to the camps. Also, the other disease victims were documented extensively by the Germans, and they ammount to 300.000 in all camps. The main story goes that 'gassed' Jews were not recorded in the records, and thus there is no proof of them. Kind of goes against 'the most documented genocide ever.'
Piles of ashes? You best be joking. Source.
Piles of clothes? Proves that clothes were put there. What's the surprise?
Then on, you lie about revisionists' stance on things.
>>9
Revisionists do not generally use videos, we quote our books and articles (except the film in OP's post which is very nicely done). Honest Media Today is a White Nationalist website and has nothing to do with revisionist scholars...
Please use proper sources to what revisionist say, like
http://www.codoh.com/index2.shtml
http://vho.org/ (articles and essays)
http://vho.org/GB/Books/HHS.html (Books on the subject)
http://ihr.org (articles and essays)
That video is a joke and not representative about what revisionists claim. :/

The millions of Jews who died cannot be attributed purely to concentration camps. Most Jews died of disease, in battle and collateral damage during the war like everyone else. Freemasons, gypsies and other groups were persecuted aswell and this occurred in communist regimes and also to other ethnic groups in so called democracies. I don't deny the holocaust, I disapprove of the hype and politicisation. Real people just like me, you, your friends and family sufferred in the extreme and completely needlessly and we must never forget any of them or leave any of the facts uncoverred so that we have a clear picture enough to prevent this from happenning again. People who dishonour their memories for political gain and think this is some sort of game to prove their group "deserves" more than others are idiots.

The fact that it wasn't just Jews who were persecuted is important, if a regime says "oh we're not persecuting jews so it's fine" or says "oh we're persecuting several ethnic groups not just one so it's not like the nazis" we must threaten them as much as we would if we had a chance to go back to 1933.

If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.
If you want to disprove events by taking a trip and drawing conclusions based on what you see, go ahead.

>>14

While I went to Auschwitz, I have also read every major Holocaust history book and almost every revisionist work and I can safely say that the Holocaust is essentially a religion. There is no physical evidence whatsoever. The documentary evidence is said to have code words like 'final solution' = 'murder', 'deportation' = 'murder'(final solution and deportation ... we have a lot of documents saying it's deportation to East, no instance of murder, yet Holocaustians say this is proof', 'gas shelter' (something the Germans could get in to protect themselves in from Allies would throw poison gas, well documented to be for that purpose yet they claim it's actually a gas chamber' and other bullshit like that. Even that, minimal.
And the eyewitness evidence is hilarious. Historians always quote the bit that seems believable to match the rest of the story and disregard the obvious lie in the whole testimony.
Revisionists have written a successful rebuttal to every piece of evidence the Holocaustians had to offer.

As a quick sidenote, we know a German camp Commander was EXECUTED by hanging for killing 3 random Jews in his camp. How gullible can anyone be to say that the Germans did that, yet gassed Jews en masse?

I went to see Aushwitz but there was nothing there, just an empty field.

there's no denying jews were being targeted, rounded up and sent to camps and that the living conditions were shit. whether or not there were any gas chambers though and 6,000,000 of them died is debatable.

>>17
Actually, not by current laws in a lot of European nations, and not without getting targeted by Jewish organisations like the ADL. They don't think it's debateable.

"It must not be asked how, technically, such a mass murder was possible. It was technically possible given that it took place. That is the requisite point of departure of any historical inquiry on this subject. It is incumbent upon us to simply state this truth: there is not, there cannot be, any debate about the existence of the gas chambers."

This is a declaration by 34 French 'historians' showing off their intellecutal bankruptcy and corruption, sourced in 'Le Monde, February 21, 1979' a French newspaper.

I don't think it's debatable either. The Rudolf Report pretty much destroys any claim of homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/

Jews were gathered up for deportation after the war, the Luther memo and the Schlegelberger document confirms it.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Schlegelberger/DocItself0342.html

i went to gettysberg i didn't wsee much, guess the civil war didn't happen either.

>>19
Straw man. see >>15

>>19

You're forming an equivalence to the Battle of Gettysburg and the concentration camps in Europe.

This is an idiotic comparison, but I'll entertain it.  The Gettysburg site has been scrutinized time and time again.  The site has been made into a national park and even has a park archaeologist.  According to this website, over 38,000 objects have been ANCS cataloged and report preparation is underway.

Not to mention the war records on both sides, the hospital records for the wounded, the fucking physical scars on thousands and thousands of wounded soldiers.

Not a single concentration camp site has been exposed to this sort of scrutiny.  While I think its beyond debate to say Jews were targeted and killed in horrific numbers during WWII, I don't think any reasonable person can say the number is six million.  There has never been an exhumation at any of the sites.  There has been little to no official testimony.  There is no chemical evidence of gas being used.

What are you arguing exactly?

>>21
Revisionist here. I don't think they were targeted and killed in horrific numbers unless they were partisans or suspected partisans. And a lot of Jews *were* partisans and rightfully considered enemies of the Axis. They were just constantly engaging in anti-Axis activities and were a detriment to the Germans, Romanians etc. Note, partisans = PC word for terrorists. As you know, the Eastern Front had no rules, anything went. The Jews that died in concentration camp died of 'natural causes.' Sure you can fully blame the Germans for not taking care of them properly, but you cannot talk about a planned extermination (targeted and killed in horrific numbers). If you look at the camp records, you'd see that they would constantly run out of supplies and encounter typhus epidemics etc. It was war and you can't expect nice conditions.

>>22
>>21

So, what will we do about changing public consciousness?

>>23

I think it's simply a matter of asking reasonable questions based on accurate premises.  Certainly many Jews were targeted and killed in WWII by the Germans.  But it's entirely appropriate to ask about the validity of the six million figure or Hilberg's tally of 5.1 million.

There are valid questions that can be raised.  Why haven't the graves been exhumed?  How come there's no chemical evidence of gas being used?  Why can't people research these issues openly?  Why is there so little official documentation?  Why is there so little direct testimony about it? 

I don't think OMG JEW CONSPIRACY!!!  This isn't a troll.  Jews probably died in terrible numbers.  But shouldn't we know if the total of the holocaust is much less than what has been traditionally assumed during the last 60 years?

Is this not reasonable?

are exact numbers even important?
this thread is useless

>>25

| "are exact numbers even important?"

sure they are. 

>>25

It's enough for them to keep echoing it over and over and over without mention of Dresden or Eisenhower's killing of German soldiers after the war.

It shouldn't be reexamined, I knew someone who was in one of the camps. She was one of the nicest people I knew.

Jews starved to death and died of disease cause most jews voluntarily left Aushchwitz to go to Belsen rather than be liberated by the Soviets, the germans should have left them of the Soviets.

>>28

how did you know her?  i thought they were death camps.

Auschwitz had frequent visits from the Red Cross, they never said anything about gas chambers, the red cross reported that condidtions were excellent, a soccer field, a huge library with 400,000 books, a brothel, even 2 blankets for every person

>>28

and this one person knew every one of the 6,000,000 people?

I don't understand why there were 3-4 million (supposed) Holocaust 'survivors' at the end of the war, and why there are literately 0 survivors from Stalin's purges.

>>33
duh, the nazis lost the war and got stopped

I approve of this thread.

>>35

is ridicule the best evidence you can offer.  seriously?

>>35

Yeah, you understand our perspective of him is as bad as their perspective of our leader/country right?

>>36
I'm with you guys; I want to see more hard evidence. I would like to see bodies exhumed and traces of Zyklon B found in bodies' lungs, if such a thing is feasable. I haven't had time or drive to look into the subject on my own as it seems like an overwhelming task to read everyone's side of the story and decide for yourself.

One thing I did was look at the list of notable "Holocaust victims" on Wiki. Of this list perhaps 80% of notable victims did NOT die in any kind of concentration camp, most were executed. Amongst the ones who died in Auschwitz, the cause of death is often given as something other than gassing. Of the ones that were claimed to be gassed to death I could not find ONE citation with the original source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_victims_of_Nazism

Auschwitz had soccer field, a soccer team, a brothel, a swimming pool, 2 blankets and a pillow for each person, and constant visits from the red cross, where the red cross would inspect the camps to make sure there were no human rights atrocities, they never said one thing about gas chambers, or mass murdering, theres never been any mass graves found.

The Nazi's were tortured severely, Senator Mccarthy refused to take part in the trials because he was disgusted, the Nazi's were framed, saddest thing in history, and the Jews use it to blackmail all European countryies as they sit up top controlling all of our countrys. This has got to stop.

Jews are the biggest liars and manipulators and will go down in history as the scum that they are.

>>39
o.O auschwitz was shut down when the american troops took it over. the americans who saw auschwitz were the ones who described it as we know it. so you either have an acute sense of humor, or you're dead wrong.


besides, even if they're able to lie like that, europe deserves it.

>>40
Another guy here.
Auschwitz was not liberated by the Americans, rather by the Russians, LOL. Though I've seen one kooky Holocaust survivor claim that he was in Auschwitz and liberated by the Americans. No camp that is now considered a death camp was liberated by the Americans, since on the Eastern side, the commies allow no research to be done.

You're way off.

*since on the Eastern side the commies allowed no research to be done and so the myth lived on. At first there were claims of American liberated camps as death camps, but they were quickly disproved by Western research (despite there being actually Jewish witnesses for gassings in Western liberated camps, LOL.)

Sorry, fixed.

Is there some sort of link validating this red cross stuff?

Why did most jews voluntarily go with the Germans from Auschwitz to Belsen father than get liberated by the Soviets? The germans treated the jews much better than what they deserved.

http://judicial-inc.biz/Auschwitz.htm

Check it out #43

the funny thing is that when I was a teenager, I though all holocaust revisionists were fucking insane racist.  But now, I'm not so sure.  While I think it's bad idea to question the holocaust, I can't reconcile my hesitations with the abject LACK of reasonable discussion / research on the topic. 

I'm sure Jews dies in terrible numbers.  We should research the camps to see how many and why.  I'm sure the total won't be anywhere near six million.  The total may not even be over 100,000.

We need to exhume the graves.  It doesn't demean the suffering of those who died.  It gives us knowledge of who they were, how many and why.

This all seems reasonable.  Ahmadinejad said as much and he was actually booed.

>>43

The Red Cross visited at least: Auschwitz[1] in September 1944, Dachau in March 1945[2], and Theresienstadt in June 1944, the favourable results angering the World Jewish Congress[3]. They also visited Katyn, which was later purposefully blamed on the Germans when in fact the Russians did it.

[1] Red Cross (1947), 91-92
[2] Red Cross (1948), vol. 1, 620; vol. 3, 83, 184; Red Cross (1947), 82-84
[3] Reitlinger, 176-186.

References:

    * Red Cross. International Documents sur l’activité du CICR en faveur des civils détenus dans les camps de concentration en Allemagne (1939-1945), Geneva, 1947.
    * Red Cross. International. Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross on its Activities During the Second World War (Sept 1, 1939-June 30, 1947), 3 vols., Geneva, 1948.
    * Gerald Reitlinger, The Final Solution, 2nd ed., Vallentine, Mitchell, London, 1968.
Original sources. Unlike what >>45 posted.

>>45
Really, dude, I don't know if you're trolling or not but judicial-inc.biz is a website ran by a Jew who has at least half the stuff there easily verifiable wrong. The only reason he's doing this is for people to easily ad hominem some accurate stuff there with the rest inaccurate shit. I'm 99% certain that's the case. It's like jewwatch.com ... a honey-pot or whatever it's called. Both websites claim that everyone alive that was ever significant or did something bad was a Jew, LOL. I don't mean to insult, but DON'T use these websites as a primary source, ever. They guys running this are obvious tools.

>>46
>I'm sure the total won't be anywhere near six million.  The total may not even be over 100,000.

You're wrong on this. Depends what you mean by Holocaust. If the Holocaust is the planned extermination (in the camps and beyond), 0 since there wasn't any EXTERMINATION. But we HAVE German camp records. All revisionists believe in the authentic camp records, recording mostly deaths by typhus and not one gassing. For example, in the Auschwitz Death Books there are recorded, if memory serves me, 74,000 deaths out of which 30,000 were verified to be Jews. They are incomplete though, so the death toll is slightly higher. ;) The Holocaust enforcers claim that the Jews who supposedly came and supposedly 'got gassed immediately' weren't entered in those records, so cross-checking them is impossible. Basically a sick conspiracy theory, with nothing to support it just like 9/11 truthers.
Again, we have German camp records, and they prove it's over 100,000. Then we also have the partisans, though some of the claimed 'reports' were proven false by revisionists. Of course, some terrorist Jews got executed, and no one denies that. But that wasn't extermination. Anyone engaging in anti-Axis activities got arrested or killed on the Eastern Front. Both sides were doing this. It was an unregulated war. Then we also have some deaths in the camps at the very end of them, which weren't recorded.
So I'd guess the deaths number *is* over 100,000, but due to disease, typhus and lawful (depends -- but you get my point) execution, rather than extermination of all Jews.

>This all seems reasonable.  Ahmadinejad said as much and he was actually booed.

I personally don't like Ahmadinejad as a spokesman for revisionism. It is true that he only expressed doubt, and that doubt is very well founded, but he COULD have just looked at the revisionist arguments and blow the house of cards that is the Holocaust on stage. He calls himself a scholar, doesn't he? :-)

The jews have been trying to get a homeland for centuries. They are trying to fulfill their prophecies thats what Zionism is. The jews tried the same thing in WWI, only no one bought it back then. It was disgusting what they did to the Germans, tortured the hell out of them, Eichmann was brainwashed. Loads of innocent Nazi's were hung *many jews admitted they gave false testimony*

The Germans never had any planse to exterminate any jews, the 'final solution' was the total expulsion of all jews from Europe. Stop the blackmail, people must wake up, the white race is dieing, we will be the minority in our own country's in less than 50 years. Its happening everywhere, whites self segregate anyway, where are we gonna run when all our countrys are taken over???