Its not up to the government, its up to the individual to try to make it perfect
Everybody has a outlook on a perfect soceity, and no utopia is the same. So I believe its up to the crazy individualist who want to change soceity, for better or worse
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Anonymous2007-01-29 15:40
Everybody has a outlook on a perfect society.
However...
There is such thing as a "utopia", it is just that because we are omnipotent we will never know what the perfect course of action will be all the time.
What we can do is do the best job we can of predicting, given the amount of effort we are willing to put in. Communism and socialism are not scientifically viable. True science ignores no factors and documents it's innaccuracies as vehemently as it's findings. Capitalism can be immoral at times. True philosophy is never abstract to the point of blind lunacy and likewise this means a pick and mix of conflicting empirical ideas is unlikely to remain the same or lead to new findings in political science.
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Anonymous2007-01-29 15:52
it is just that because we are not omniscient*
oopsi
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Anonymous2007-01-29 16:42
the free market will always tend to monopoly, which results in the people tending to revolution, which results in the establishment of a government to prevent that kind of shit from happening again.
so in a sense government is the result of free market forces, not some diametrically opposed concept.
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Anonymous2007-01-29 17:02
>>10
That was a carefully veiled attempt to compare mixed economies and governments to mixed/conflicting empirical scientific data, a fallacious comparison to say the least.
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Anonymous2007-01-29 17:04
>>12
good will always tend to authoritarian forces, which results in the people tending to revolution, which results in the establishment of evil to prevent that kind of shit from happening again.
so in a sense evil is the result of good, not some diametrically opposed concept.
OR MAYBE YOU CONSIDER THAT A diametrically opposed concept CAN BE THE RESULT OF ITS OPPOSITE.
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Anonymous2007-01-30 0:54
I believe in an economy that is in between socialist and capitalist. Basically, a capitalist system with rules and regulations such as promoting small business and preventing outsourcing in order to counter the inherent exploitation of labor in a capitalist economy.
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Anonymous2007-01-30 9:06
>>12
Actually governments existed before the free market and any naturally occurring monopolies result in evolution with people asking the government to regulate the monopoly to stop them charging extremely high prices. The government then sinks it's teeth into the sector of the economy and never lets go.
>>15
We've tried that for the past 50 years, but there are still many ridiculous problems that this system seems to refuse to solve.
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Anonymous2007-01-30 12:01
>there are still many ridiculous problems that this system seems to refuse to solve.
Same as libertarianism.
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Anonymous2007-01-30 12:14
>>17
Libertarianism solves ridiculous problems, it just has difficulty solving thos problems which are physically impossible to solve which liberals enjoy whining about.
>>19
Why do you think child labor is physically imposible to solve?
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Anonymous2007-01-31 11:02
>>19
I am not suprised socialists oppose child labour but don't do anything about it because they believe it is "physically impossible". Libertarians disagree and wish to rid the world of the tyranny of socialism.
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Anonymous2007-01-31 11:52
You're idiots. LIBERTARIANS ARE _FOR_ CHILD LABOR.
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Anonymous2007-01-31 12:18
>>22
Incorrect. Libertarians oppose tyranny, therefore they oppose slavery, therefore they oppose child labour.
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Anonymous2007-01-31 18:15
>>23
Incorrect. Libertarians oppose tyranny, therefore they oppose government regulations on business, therefore they oppose anti-child labor regulations, therefore they support child labor.
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Anonymous2007-01-31 18:55
>>24
Incorrect. Libertarians oppose tyranny, therefore they support the enforcement of justice, therefore they support anti-child labor regulations.
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Anonymous2007-01-31 19:14
>>25
but are anti-child labour regulations really justice? i mean who's it fair to?
If the children get work at a young age, they'll be able to make money and buy things their parent may not want them to have, thus liberating themselves from the tyranny of parents.
It will also give them alot of job experience which is always a plus, and if the kids don't want to work, they don't need to. If a kid chooses to work, it should be able to - I say we stop this depravation of childrens rights, let the children do as they want to. Remember, a wise man once said "children are just small adults."
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Anonymous2007-01-31 19:20
>>26
Correct. I'm pro child labor. I wanna work a loli all night long.
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Anonymous2007-01-31 21:49
Libertarians enjoy their sweatshops.
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Anonymous2007-01-31 21:50
enforcement of justice=stopping crime, but there are no laws against child labor in the libertarian society so its perfectly just lol
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Anonymous2007-01-31 21:54
>>28
Libertarians are ones who will be running those sweatshops. People like you are ones who likely "enjoy" them, otherwise you wouldn't be against libertarians.
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Anonymous2007-02-01 7:10
>>26
It is more secure to be sure that a nation has a constant supply of educated citizens. For the time being we should allow children to do paper rounds and things once they have reached a certain level of competence or allowing them to participate in their parent's farm work or whatever. However depriving them of an education to do unskilled labour 12 hours a day is a sickenning waste.
Maybe in the future a system will be developped that will allow children to be educated and work at the same time and determine the best balance between the 2. For the time being permitting outright child labor is too much of a risk to take in light of the need to enforce justice.
>>29
How did you jump from preventing crime to a society that has no laws against child labor? Preventing crime would involve laws which prevent the exploitation of children. It's the first thing to come to mind after laws which prevent violence. You area very illogical person. Stop being illogical.
>>30
Corrupt libertarian-agorists maybe, but not true libertarians.
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Anonymous2007-02-01 11:20
>allowing them to participate in their parent's farm work or whatever.
You do realize that all farms in the 21st century are run by huge conglomorate corporations and there are no more mom and pop farms right?
>Maybe in the future a system will be developped that will allow children to be educated and work at the same time and determine the best balance between the 2. For the time being permitting outright child labor is too much of a risk to take in light of the need to enforce justice.
You're not a libertarian if you want to legislate your ideals and reasoning to the free market.
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Anonymous2007-02-01 12:39
>>32
"You're not a libertarian if you want to legislate your ideals and reasoning to the free market."
If you are a libertarian you don't want to "legislate your ideals and reasoning to the free market.". You want to interefer with the free market in order to preserve justice, exploitation of children is a crime and sometimes it is practical to ban child labour completely rather than risk people abusing loopholes in some bloated bureaucracy.
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Anonymous2007-02-01 12:51
>>33
No, no. Libertarians are AGAINST government meddling in the free market. AGAINST.
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Anonymous2007-02-01 20:55
>>34
oops I meant interefere ONLY to preserve justice
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Anonymous2007-02-01 23:59
>>35
Most of the hardcore libertarians will disagree with your soft anti-child labor stances.
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Anonymous2007-02-02 0:31
Who is to say it's a crime? If the business owners say it isn't a crime, and the rest of the population say it is, then wouldn't this just be another instance of the tyrannical majority?
Hell, In a libertarian society, there would be few workers and many employers, since they would want to keep the option of lucrative child labor open if they were an employer, and since the children can't vote, the majority (employers) would make child labor legal.
>>36
Then they're not libertarians, but pretenders attempting to mock libertarianism. Libertarianism is by default unpopular amongst anyone with an unfair position of power. Corrupt business owners use government subsides, priviledges and kick backs to stay afloat and monopolise a sector of the market and politicians of all kinds who are not libertarian are fallacists who attempt to derail political science to fool people into voting for them either for the sake of pushing an agenda or for the sake of getting easily fooled people to vote for them instead of what is good for them.
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Anonymous2007-02-02 10:49
>>39
You must enter the real world. Any business will do anything to increase profits. The illegal immigrants of today will become the child laborers of libertarian tomorrow.
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Anonymous2007-02-02 11:34
>>40
Of course businesses do anything to increase profits. That's why if they can do everything excpet disobey the law then they will strive to improve the economy through good hard work. Businesses provide more motivation to do good than socialism ever would, thus libertarians are capitalist, but place everything under the preservation of liberty through justice. Justice is generally determinned through a democracy. Thus a capitalism regulated by a democracy, which is pretty much the most widely used and efficient system of governemnt the world has. All thanks to libertarianism.
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Anonymous2007-02-02 12:52
>>41
>>Justice is generally determined through a democracy.
you're gonna have to elaborate on this
>>democracy, which is pretty much the most widely used and efficient system
lol, this is a bit of generalisation. Many countries call themselves democracies but are actually flawed or poor ones or have since become anarchies or totalitarian regimes. Few reach the high status of "well-run" democracy.
According to this source from wiki, half the world is still "not free"
>>42
Justice all boils down to the general opinion. If you force your idea of justice on other people they will feel oppressed. Democracy doesn't solve everyone's problems, but it does allow a general consensus to the reached which solves most problems which is a good method of discoverring what kind of justice best fits the country.
I believe there are countries that are still consumed by stupidity, corruption and ignorance and I call them proto-democracies. My idea of a proto-democracy is a nation like Iran, Nicaragua, Nigeria or 19th century UK. You probably think the US is a totalitarianism or something, but believe me if you were living in a totalitarianism or an anarchy for that matter you wouldn't just be babbling in a typical whining liberal manner, you'd know it.
In that map, generally orange = proto-democracy, green = democracy.
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Anonymous2007-02-02 23:50
>>43
>>Justice all boils down to the general opinion. If you force your idea of justice on other people they will feel oppressed.
By this definition oppression can be a form of justice; are you just saying the majority is always right? This statement flies in the face of >>40 "preservation of liberty through justice".
>>but it does allow a general consensus to the reached which solves most problems
that's not how a modern democracy works. You do realise that unless there is a referendum, the general public have no direct power over decisions that affect the country after elections in every democratic regime in the world? The only things keeping politicians in line are the fact that parliament is re-elected every few years, and the press (assuming of course there is the rare freedom of press in that country). A modern democracy doesn't run on consensus, it runs on power checks and balances.
I am thinking you understand neither libertarianism nor democracy
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Anonymous2007-02-03 0:32
>>44
I'm looking at it fro mthe practical standpoint. It is all very well to say it doesn't matter what the majority thinks and claim it is just to force your opinion on people, but that didn't work in Cambodia, Somalia, Yugoslavia, Palestine and countless instances in history and undoubtedly the future so why do you expect people to bend over and accept your magical super happy ideal?
Democracy runs on power checks and balances, therefore the only way a person can gain power is through appealing to the people. Not 100% efficient, but then someone who whines constantly about things not being perfect doesn't have anything important to add so I fail to see what that has to do with anything.
I am thinking you like to claim democracies are despotisms, because if people don't like what you have to say well then they must be completely evil and have nothing to do with good ideas like democracy.
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