Abortion and Women's Rights

Abortion has nothing to do with women's rights.  Murder is not a right. 

>>39
What if we are talking about a person who has committed the crime covertly, not a company which allows regulation of it's use of the narcotic? How do you prevent the crime from taking place in the first place?

>>41
You will never have absolute safety in any system, yours, mine, socialist, communist, fascist, or mixed economy.  I am not going to try and promise you absolute safety, because it just doesn't exist. 

Of course, the government will be there in my system to protect your other freedoms, and keep you safe from reasonable threats. 

>>42
Yes, but you have to do something. You can't just say "we'll never stop all crime so why bother?".

>>43

"Yes, but you have to do something."

Something stupid, wasteful, ineffective, and expensive, such as the FDA, that, in the end, serves nobody but those whom it was supposed to be regulating in the first place?

Look, I already offered you a solution.  My solution is far superior to the FDA.  My solution is to have consumers judge for themselves.  Let the free market, and the other, often non-considered "market force" known as integrity keep us secure.  This force, combined with good judgement in purchasing, is what will keep people safe. 

The FDA could be worse than my suggestion.  If the FDA is presented with a bad product, and the FDA is 'influenced' shall we say, by corporate business interests, the FDA will of course rule favorably upon the new product. 

People have misguided and misplaced trust in the FDA to protect them.  They then trust the FDA and just eat whatever it is, not considering the thoughts they would be entertaining had the market been truly free to begin with. 

At least in the first situation, they have a completely impartial, and fair shot at determining what the good products are. 

How about; If you dont want the baby you are pregnant with, you are able to sell/donate it for stem cell research? OWAIT~ George W. Bush would rather WASTE that perfectly good fetus.

Gay-org W Bust

>>44
Think of something else then.

>>21
>Why don't you care about birth control? Are you saying it doesn't bother you a bit to have a fetus killed? Even the slightest?

No, most people would agree that a fetus is not a complete human being. It doesn't bother me the slightest.

>>47
If it is 20 weeks or older it is human.
http://dis.4chan.org/read/newpol/1153966199

>>47
Proof abortion should be illegal except within certain specific confines.  People have no respect for life or it's dignity whatever. 

>>48 Do not care. Remove gender inequality first - then we can talk about abortion. And, once again, I do not care about this type of murder. It is removal of a baby made by the one single person who would normally have the strongest emotional attachment. I think abortion is a legitimate strike back against society, a refusal to contribute your sons and daughters until your parenthood can be facilitated and your children won't have to suffer the indignity of being treated inequally - the same mistreatment that caused your abortion in the first place. Decry it as much as you want, I wouldn't even raise an eyebrow if the mother blew the baby to smithereens within, say, 48 hours of delivery.

>>33 D: A witty generalization! As for my politics, I have the strongest respect for libertarianism even though I don't think it provides enough answers. Hence, I try to find themselves and until I am somewhat convinced of where I stand I agree with the democrats in order to take a stand against evangelicals and neocons.
>>34 No, unfortunately. I blame the American public for that somewhat.
>>37 The goal of all companies is to become so powerful or so nebulous that consumer subjectivity and scrutiny is not a factor for them.

>>50
OR, you could take the time to make sure you use a fucking condom...

Abortions are not caused by inequality either.  Society is fair right now, with the exception of reparations, gay marriage bans, and a few other things. 

Women, however, are not oppressed in the USA.  That's bullshit.

>>51
Consumers will always be a factor to companies.  Especially with the creation of the internet, companies are fearing angry consumers more and more.  There was an article about this on CNN the other day, but I'm too lazy to go look it up, sorry. 

>>52 Inequality doesn't mean oppression, dude. All organisms are naturally oppressed by their environment, the crux is that all organisms try to change their surroundings for the better, learn lessons from what happens when they do that and this interaction with the environment is * itself* shaped by past experiences. My point is that if unwanted pregnancies occur then the relationship between men and women -and the way we shape them via our prejudicion and mores- obviously needs to change. Until that happens removing the babies is justified, bith control or not Oh yeah, and the politicians you people side with in order to oppress women further are usually the kind who support abstinence programs in high schools and in Africa - and those things work out great, right? Then again, handing out condoms to teenagers (Project X) didn't work out to well either. For any reasonably intelligent person sex education would be the answer but I guess that's still a fucking issue in the states for some reason.

>>51
I blame people who vote democrat instead of libertarian thinking it'll make a difference.

"A witty generalization! "
Not to be an ass, so please don't take offense, but it's a very true generalization.  Democrats have shown they are very frightened people.  They want to ban every other activity based on irrational fears.  (Take a look at the debate over firearms ownership if you want an example).

"My point is that if unwanted pregnancies occur then the relationship between men and women -and the way we shape them via our prejudicion and mores- obviously needs to change."

The relationship between men and women doesn't need to be changed.  What are you suggesting? I think birth control is the right answer. 


 "Until that happens removing the babies is justified, bith control or not"

Birth control is so easy to use, and just plain accessable, if the woman doesn't want to use it to prevent an abortion, she is just being a bitch and should be forced to have the baby anyway. 

 "Oh yeah, and the politicians you people side with in order to oppress women further are usually the kind who support abstinence programs in high schools and in Africa"

How do my politicians work to oppress women in the USA further?  I don't support abstinence programs, but so what? People are always whining about "women's rights", and "feminism", and I don't see any recent significant invasion of women's rights. 

Granted, in the past, there have indeed been significant invasions of women's rights.  They gained the right to vote in the last century, if I'm not mistaken.  I agree with this.  I am for equal rights under the law for everyone, including women.  If this makes me a bigot or "not for women's rights", well so be it. 

Pointedly, however, there aren't really any to speak of now, so there is really no reason to be bitching about it. 

>>54

"For any reasonably intelligent person sex education would be the answer but I guess that's still a fucking issue in the states for some reason."

Because parents should educate their children about sex, not bureaucrats. 

Bodies are not property of the state and they should not be subject to the being controlled by the state. Born or unborn.

>>58
That's the strongest argument for being pro-choice that I've seen so far, in my opinion.  I'm definitely going to think on this. 

>>57 I trust common sense to deliver the basics via schools, and I don't want to live in a society where people can tell their kids whatever without there being buffers from education. If I am an elightened and sensible parent I think it is fair to demand of others that they teach their children equally well so that my children won't have to fear sexual morons or having to watch their drinks when they are at a party.
>>56 "The relationship between men and women doesn't need to be changed.  What are you suggesting? I think birth control is the right answer."              I am suggesting a nearly complete rejection of gender roles and the ensuing demands for cosmetical and behavioral conformity.
>>55 "Not to be an ass, so please don't take offense, but it's a very true generalization.  Democrats have shown they are very frightened people.  They want to ban every other activity based on irrational fears.  (Take a look at the debate over firearms ownership if you want an example)." Democrats are too doubtful and regulating, but republicans rely too heavily on naivity towards people. It's as if the don't relize that people are shaped by the environment.
>>58 "Bodies are not property of the state and they should not be subject to the being controlled by the state. Born or unborn." The issue isn't whether it is born or not, since that is largely a physical state (inside/outside). And women are not controlled by the state per se, so that is argument is moot.

Abort more foetuses. As many as women deem neccesary. And then when we've sucked the stem cells out of them, put them in water balloons and throw them at the teary-eyed waste of human components that try to harm the practice. Death death death vacuum vacuum vacuum.

>>60

Xel, you missed the point of what I'm saying. Illegalizing abortion and banning the practice outright is an infringement on the soverignity and liberty of another human being. It means implies that the person is a property of other persons and subject to their rule, in this case, the state. That too close to what is expressed outright in communism.

I'll take freedom, thanks.

>>61 Aha. Agreed.

>>48
Because Anonymous says so?

>>49
You advocate war even though you know the children of enemy civilians are going to die. Don't be a hypocrite. You don't give a fuck about life.

women should have the right to abort babies. if the parents are unfit, the child should be unborn.

"If the parents are unfit, the child should be unborn."
Oprah, you get me a tee with that quip on it and I'll give you $ 12.50.

>>65
What if the child is sentient?

>>67 It is not to any sufficient extent, and even then there is still such a thing as collective responsibility. Want to stop abortion? Change your culture until unwanted pregnancies, demonizing of the cesarian procedure and destructive gender roles are a thing of the past. I think secularization, smarter alchohol habits and feminism would sort that out nicely. Until then; kill kill kill chop chop chop vacuum vacuum vacuum silentshout silentshout silentshout dumplings dumplings dumplings.

Children suck; first they just lie there and scream and shit and then they learn how to walk and you need to worry about that then they pick up a crayon and even though they can't even draw inside the lines of the Spongebob drawing book you still have to squeal in appreciation and put that shit on the refrigerator like they own the place and then they want beyblades or princess dresses and hate you because they are not allowed to stay up/show their bellybutton and they want to cheerlead and wonder why "our car isn't as nice as Anita's parents' car" and then they become 15 and if they are dudes they show up with shitty clothes shitty music shitty values and thin mustaches and hate your guts or they are girls and they have sex with frat boys and die of Stoli poisoning just because they want to be mature divas and live like Carrie Bradshaw adn then there's college and NO SEX AT ALL EVER. Shortly put, fuck kids. How my parents have refrained from commiting suicide is unfathomable.

>>60
"I am suggesting a nearly complete rejection of gender roles and the ensuing demands for cosmetical and behavioral conformity."

Maybe the communist party is for you.  Are you just anti-family? Guess what? I like women with long hair, and that's  fucking that.  Tough shit, there's gonna be that much pressure on women to have long hair.  Boo fucking hoo, they are so 'oppressed,' I pity them... lawl.

>>68
"kill kill kill chop chop chop vacuum vacuum vacuum silentshout silentshout silentshout dumplings dumplings dumplings."

You have successfully reminded me of one damn good reason why people vote republican.  Congrats. 

>>68
You are glamourising abortion to piss off christians! Wow, that's really controverrsial, but what does this have to do with the argument? Do you think my motive or religion reflects on my argument? I don't matter, only my argument matters. Try again.

If it is just a cluster of cells, fine, by all means suck it out.
If there is the slightest chance it is sentient, no, just no.

>>70
I'm not a Christian.  I read what he wrote there pro-choice, and came out pro-life.  I'm an athiest. 

What a disgusting show of disrespect for human life..

>>69 They have long hair because of a thing called genes, we descend from apes and aquatic origins, and the kids need something to hold onto. I like women with long hair too but that is subjective aesthetics.Lawl @ you. I also happen to think families are great, but as with capitalism I'm not ready to take its current iteration and the enforcing of it at all times for granted or as an innate positive.
>>70 "If there is the slightest chance it is sentient, no, just no." When a society and those that shape it have done their best to dismantle the factors that cause unwanted pregnancies, then they have the moral liberty to ban abortion. Until then, no, just no.
>>71 "What a disgusting show of disrespect for human life.." I'm ready to recognize abortion as immoral, destructive or philosophically wrong, but a potentiality is not an actuality. Also, a clear majority of abortions occur when foetuses are between the sixe of a coin or an A5-size paper.

I stand for the liquifying and rejection of defenseless humans. So sic that cognitively challenged evangelical of yours at me.

>>72
"They have long hair because of a thing called genes, we descend from apes and aquatic origins, and the kids need something to hold onto. I like women with long hair too but that is subjective aesthetics.Lawl @ you."

If you weren't bitching about women being pressurized to have long hair, what did you mean when you were referring to cosmetic pressure or whatever? I'm aware of genetics.  Women can get their hair cut, you know. 

Lawl @ me? I lawl at anyone who thinks women are oppressed in the USA on any kind of regular or systematic basis that warrants political action..

Equal rights under the law, and regulated abortion sounds fine to me. 

I'm a femininist in the sense of the word that I favor equal rights under the law for women.  That's all.


"but as with capitalism I'm not ready to take its current iteration and the enforcing of it at all times for granted or as an innate positive."

What does this have to do with me, or my post? I'm talking about abortion, not Capitalism.  Yeah, I talked about communism because that relates to the family/abortion debate.  I wasn't talking about economics at all. 


"When a society and those that shape it have done their best to dismantle the factors that cause unwanted pregnancies, then they have the moral liberty to ban abortion. Until then, no, just no."

What factors cause unwanted pregnancies? I'll give you a clue in the form of one word:  "irresponsible." It has nothing to do with all your anti-family crap, it's about people who are just irresponsible. 

"I stand for the liquifying and rejection of defenseless humans."

As long as people like you exist who think things like this are ok, abortion should be banned, for the same (or similar) list of reasons that murder should be banned.  Abortion is not "murder."  It's more like half murder, or partial murder, or however much development the fetus has gone through. 

However 'human' the fetus is, is to the extent that it's murder. 

"I stand for the liquifying and rejection of defenseless humans. So sic that cognitively challenged evangelical of yours at me."

I'm an athiest.  Nice try though.

>>73 "Lawl @ me? I lawl at anyone who thinks women are oppressed in the USA on any kind of regular or systematic basis that warrants political action.." That is a tad naive, unfortunately.
"I'm a femininist in the sense of the word that I favor equal rights under the law for women.  That's all." That is not enough, considering those that come under jurisprudence have been subject to very different expectations, systems and shaping.
"What does this have to do with me, or my post? I'm talking about abortion, not Capitalism.  Yeah, I talked about communism because that relates to the family/abortion debate.  I wasn't talking about economics at all. " Communism wasn't feministic in the slightest, and I wasn't bringing in the economics either. I failed to express my views here.
"What factors cause unwanted pregnancies? I'll give you a clue in the form of one word:  "irresponsible." It has nothing to do with all your anti-family crap, it's about people who are just irresponsible. " Uh-duuuuuuh. What caused the irresponsibility in the first place?
"I'm an athiest.  Nice try though." I was lambasting half of america's excuse for a commander in chief, not semantically implying you stick with him.

"That is a tad naive, unfortunately."

Are you going to explain why?

"That is not enough, considering those that come under jurisprudence have been subject to very different expectations, systems and shaping."

Uh-oh...  I feel affirmative action, reverse discrimination, in general, larger government, and dissolution of the family coming on.

"Communism wasn't feministic in the slightest, and I wasn't bringing in the economics either. I failed to express my views here."

It is.  Feminism also relates to communism/socialism/leftism as well.  For affirmative action, for example, you require more government intervention into the economy, which is a distinctively leftist trait.  Consider and note the fact that Betty Friedan, widely regarded as one of the creators of the feminist movement, or of feminism in general, was, herself, a staunch leftist.  According to several sources, she bought into Marxist/socialist ideas from a very young age.

"Uh-duuuuuuh. What caused the irresponsibility in the first place?"

They took an action.  They arrived at the decision to take that action after thinking about it (assuming they think about their actions.)  They should now suffer the consequences.  This is a classic example of leftists thinking people shouldn't be accountable for their actions. 

"I was lambasting half of america's excuse for a commander in chief, not semantically implying you stick with him."

I see.

>>75
>government intervention into the economy, which is a distinctively leftist trait.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>76
It's true. 

>>77 The right interferes with the econoomy too, they just pretend they don't.
>>75 "Are you going to explain why?" Women have lower self-esteem and are made to believe that taking cesarians and sedatives during birth is selfish. They are not allowed to be rash, are taught to keep their voices down and are given different priorities that ultimately make them dependant on men.
"Uh-oh...  I feel affirmative action, reverse discrimination, in general, larger government, and dissolution of the family coming on." Nope, my solution is larlgely cultural and psychological, and I have stopped believing in almost all forms of government meddling. I don't know what type of family you are talking about, but I see a world were biological differences and preferences aren't overprojected on reality. If my girlfriend stays at home with the baby, it will be because she make less money and that will not be a result of her having her self-esteem stripped via a sociocultural status quo. Take heed, people in the real world, there are still people out there who consider feminism to be incompatible with some arbitrary version of a family.
"It is.  Feminism also relates to communism/socialism/leftism as well.  For affirmative action, for example, you require more government intervention into the economy, which is a distinctively leftist trait.  Consider and note the fact that Betty Friedan, widely regarded as one of the creators of the feminist movement, or of feminism in general, was, herself, a staunch leftist.  According to several sources, she bought into Marxist/socialist ideas from a very young age." You fail here, because my mission regarding all this doesn't require a government.
"They took an action.  They arrived at the decision to take that action after thinking about it (assuming they think about their actions.)  They should now suffer the consequences.  This is a classic example of leftists thinking people shouldn't be accountable for their actions. " This is getting tiresome. You really talk like a christian on moral issues, are you sure you don't have some reverend's spunk slooshing around in you at least?

ALL OF YOU WHO OPPOSE ABORTIONS IN THIS THREAD ...

ARE YOU GOING TO PAY ANYTHING TO TAKE CARE OF THE UNWANTED CHILD?
ASK YOURSELF HONESTLY, DO YOU REALLY WANT TO?

NO?

THEN SHUT UP, YOU DO NOT CARE ANYTHING ABOUT THIS CHILD... ...

>>79
"ALL OF YOU WHO OPPOSE ABORTIONS IN THIS THREAD ...

ARE YOU GOING TO PAY ANYTHING TO TAKE CARE OF THE UNWANTED CHILD?
ASK YOURSELF HONESTLY, DO YOU REALLY WANT TO?"

Maybe she should have asked herself that question before she got pregnant. 

"THEN SHUT UP, YOU DO NOT CARE ANYTHING ABOUT THIS CHILD... ..."

I'm not going to shut up until people like that are held accountable for their actions.