Holocaust denial

I have been reading a lot of stuff recently, some of which has disturbed me.  There are a lot of people out there who say the Holocaust, that horrible time in history they taught us about in school never really happened the way they say it did. 

They cite how there's no way camps like auschewits(sp?) had the capacity to eliminate as many people as they said were held there.  They talk about how zyklon-b wasn't really powerful enough to kill anyone, and those showers apparently outfitted with this chemical were actually used for a delousing procedure.  They talk about how it doesn't make any sense to trick people into going to their death when you've already got them in your custody.

I don't know man; holocaust deniers seem to have information to back them up, all kinds of evidence, to which the holocaust sympathizers only have name calling and questioning the motives of those who deny it.  I am someone who really would like to believe that the holocaust happened, if only so that I can believe there isn't a vast conspiracy behind it.  So, any holocaust sympathizers with a good rebuttal to what they're saying?

>>40
BTW, it's been proven how once you get a body started burning, it'll continue like a candle wick until it's completely consumed.  Look into reasearch surrounding spontaneoous human combustion. 

It does take some work to get a human body started, but once you do it burns up nicely.  BTW, most of those bodies weren't freshly dead, they'd been dessicating in graves for months before they were stacked up and burned.  In fact, the only reason they were being stacked up is because the allies were coming and they realized their asses were going to be stabbed all to hell in court for that...

Which brings me to another point, about the germans keeping records.  Even being such meticulous record keepers, does it not stand to reason that they'd destroy such incriminating records from their files?  They knew the allies were coming, and they knew what would happen to them.

About the ashes not being found anywhere, ash dissipates fairly easily into the environment once it's completely burned up.  Winds spread it around, ETC.   this is another hole in your argument.  Maybe the ashes and the fire would be visible from space IF THEY'D BURNED THEM ALL AT ONCE.  But they didn't; it happened over years, and they had time to process the ash before moving on. 

"hen that guy talks about the six million myth and that ashes from space thing, he's talking about the fact you can't hide six million corpses. The numbers were set using rumor-mongering, tortured confessions, and pay-offs. The actual records were too small to satisfy the jews. It couldn't be a realistic number like ten thousand, no it had to be SIX MILLION. Before that, it was NINE MILLION. Oh, and it couldn't be something realistic like shooting with mass graves; no, it had to be people killed in mass with ineffective explosive insecticide right next to a raging fire. They had to defy the laws of physics. No, it wasn't good enough having a little mistreatment at the hands of the Germans. No, they had to be made into of soap and lampshades (items which has been tested and proven to NOT have any human products in them)! Before gas chambers, it was the electro chambers. They kept on using more and more chutzpah and making the lies more and more ridiculous, until they get disproven later. Eventually, it comes back and bites them in the ass. Not suprising, lies tend to do that, at least in my experience.  "

this one paragraph does more to destroy your credibility than anything else I've read.  It's nothing more than illogical and insane hatred.  It's not that hatred itself is illogical, not saying that, it's that you're resorting to trying to VILLIFY your enemy, to try to turn them into the greatest evil mankind has ever known while SIMULTANEOUSLY talking about how the nazis were just people.  You aren't some guy who wants to tell the unbalanced truth.  I see where your bias lies.

>>40
LOL

>>41

No. You forgot about bones dumbass. The more primitive cremation equipment can't get rid of bones very well.

But, for argument's sake, let's assume that the nazis could perfectly cremate four million people into 1 foot cubes. No bones, just ash.

The tallest mountain in the world is Mount Everest at 29035. 4,000,000 divided by 29035 is around 137. The square root of 137 is around 11. So, you could basically have a cylinder of ash with a diameter of 11 feet, as tall as the tallest mountain on earth with the ash of 4,000,000 people, under IDEAL circumstances, without things that take up extra area like bones. An actual pile, larger at the base, would be FAR wider than that. The ash of six million people is a 50%!!! increase from that.

YOU CAN'T HIDE THAT.  The nazis didn't even have the time or resources to BEGIN cremating that many people, not to mention not having that much of an ineffective INSECTICIDE to kill six million people without proper ventiliation or construction or procedure. There wasn't even enough time. They didn't have the couple of decades necessary. They didn't have the facilities. They didn't have the frickin' manpower to waste on some evil genius scheme out of a comic book and an immature imagination. They didn't have any reason to waste the manpower and labor that the Jews were providing them with; labor they desperately needed.

The 'holocaust' is a fucking fantasy.

Next of all, shoveling the ashes of six million people into an irregular pile is not something you can hide in couple of days or a couple of months or even a couple of years. Try making alot of ash. Sure, it gets washed away but the ashes of six million people is enough to drastically affect the soil, its ph and composition. Also, human ash leaves elements that you can trace to know that it is HUMAN ash. You could easily FIND out that there were six million people's worth of ash in a place. These were CONCENTRATION camps. Lots of people concentrated in one place. The ash would be concentrated too. You know, the original plaque at Auschwitz before it was changed read four million. Four million people's worth of ash in a year, and their bones would be visible from space. The hole would be visible from space. You could frickin' WALK on the ash and make it into huge compacted down football stadium. A thousand people make enough remains to build a house out of. Four million people would have more mass than the whole freaking concentration camp, and that's if they had perfect cremation, which they didn't.

There was no holocaust, only a holohoax.

gb2 oven

Ok, I'm convinced six million Jews weren't killed. I'm convinced that it wasn't even physically possible for six million Jews to have been killed.

Isn't this a cause for celebration? Isn't this great? I think it is pretty cool.

http://www.somethingawful.com/flash/shmorky/stealthjew.swf

>>46

Ok, that's hiliarious. But as for the parts that pertained to the holocaust, it showed a mass grave. It didn't show ash or gassings. That sort of looked like most mass graves do, and it could have been a picture of the one at that was found at Belsen. Nobody even makes up a story about there being a gassing at belsen. Ironically, the reason why so many died at belsen was because they didn't HAVE any Zyklon B to fumigate clothes and things like that, those people died of starvation and disease. The starvation you can blame on the food and supply shortages that Germany was suffering and the overcrowding after the evacuation of detainees to Bergen-Belsen.

Sensationalism != reason. You could do the exact same thing making fun of people that BELIEVE in the holohoax.

Still, you're guilty of what you accuse your enemy of... Sensationalism and irrationality in arguments...

>>48

It's easy to make claims. At least go the length and try to back them up. Oh, and I'd also like to say that I have an enemy here. I know that six million Jews weren't systematically exterminated in a rather ridiculous manner. As one guy pointed out, this is a GOOD thing. I'm glad that six million jews weren't killed.

>>49

What I meant to say was that I DON'T have an enemy here, unless you wanted six million jews to die.

So with all the crappy data on exact figures, how can one ever come close to a realistic estimate?

>>51

Because realistic estimates are considered too small. After all, Hitler can't JUST be selfishly pro-German and pro-Eugenics; he also has to be satan that walked upon the earth, a nazithatwantstokillsixmillionjews. He can't be imperfect, human, and stubborn; he has to be pure unadulterated evil that nobody is even willing to examine with an unbiased attitude.

That's why. Political hangover from the 40's. Got a bit drunk on power, and took the game too far.

>>50
LOLZ WAY TO MAKE YOUR ENEMY LOOK LIKE A NAZI LOLZ

You are killing more Jews by believing.

This thread is made of holocaustdenial and win.

I’m glad some people realize the truth about all this. I just wish more people realized the truth about WWII as a whole, but people would rather keep up this myth that it occurred. I mean lets look at the facts.

50-60 million dead? Plus more in the aftermath from starvation and dislocation? What a farce. That many bodied would form a stack so high it would be like a Mt Everest that reaches low earth obit.

Further we are supposed to believe the productions numbers? If you look at munitions the brass castings from all though bullets alone would be able to fill the great lakes. And all of this metal would corrupt the soil beyond repair.

Not to mention bullets are very ineffective for killing people. Most people who are shot survive! Why choose this insane and inefficient way of killing people? It’s like something from a bad comic book.

So what is the myth of WWII (Which if you talk to those so called “veterans” it’s more like a religion) really all about? Clearly it was all an attempt by the ghost of George Washington Carver to control the world peanut butter trade.

>>56
Nonono, Jews did WWII.

>>57

STFU! You are just another Carverist looking to dip your fangs into the lucrative peanut butter trade!

>>56

WW2 and WW1 were both physically possible, and evidence backs them up. WW1 and WW2 are not fantastic and ridiculous claims made more for comic books and cartoon series like the holocaust is. Satire is not the same thing as reason.

According to your satire, we don't need any proof to substantiate claims and contradictory evidence is to be ignored, if somebody says something happened it happened. Everybody here thought that the holocaust was true at some point, the burden of proof was therefore on disproving it as a reasonable claim. The burden of proof for disproving the systematic extermination of Jews in the number of six million by National Socialist Germany has been met; in addition to the realization that there was unsatisfactory proof to make that claim in the first place.

>>59

And as for this specific claim, two things have been sufficiently proven.

1. No civilian Jews were gassed by National Socialist Germany, at least in large numbers in a systematic attempt at killing large numbers of Jews.
2. Six million civilian Jews did not die by exposure to toxic gas, especially not the insecticide Zyklon B, during the period of WW2.


These negative facts stand however:
1. Criminals, enemies of the state, and non-citizens (including Jews) were rounded up into concentration labor camps by National Socialist Germany.
2. Many of the residents of these concentration camps died of disease and malnutrition; in some cases, so many died from disease and starvation that mass graves were necessary such as in Bergen-Belsen. However, the death by disease and starvation was not due to the action of the National Socialist Germans, but rather by their inaction and lack of fumigants like Zyklon B or basic resources such as food and fuel.
3. Many concentration camp residents lived a life that was far below the poverty line except in the nicer concentration camps that had plentiful access to resources and educated or influential people within those camps.
4. The concentration camp residents were forced at the end of a gun to work. They were not given freedom of choice, and were only one step above prisoners of war.

Enough of this shit. You fucking nerds and you're need to argue about stupid shit

The IHR says (original, Samisdat, and revised versions combined):

None. The only evidence is the postwar testimony of individual "survivors." This testimony is contradictory, and no "survivor" claims to have actually witnessed any gassing. There are no contemporaneous documents and no hard evidence whatsoever: no mounds of ashes, no crematoria capable of disposing of millions of corpses, no piles of clothes, no human soap, no lamp shades made of human skin, no records, no credible demographic statistics.

Nizkor replies:

Lie piled upon lie, with not a shred of proof.

This is as good a place as any to present some detailed evidence which is consistently ignored, as a sort of primer on Holocaust denial. It will make this reply much longer than the other sixty-five, but perhaps the reader will understand the necessity for this.

Let's look at their claims one at a time:

# Supposedly the only evidence, "the postwar testimony of individual survivors."

First of all, consider the implicit conspiracy theory. Notice how the testimony of every single inmate of every Nazi camp is automatically dismissed as unconvincing. This total dismissal of inmates' testimony, along with the equally-total dismissal of the Nazis' own testimony (!), is the largest unspoken assumption of Holocaust-denial.

This assumption, which is not often spelled out, is that the attempted Jewish genocide never took place, but rather that a secret conspiracy of Jews, starting around 1941, planted and forged myriad documents to prove that it did; then, after the war, they rounded up all the camp survivors and told them what to say.

The conspirators also supposedly managed to torture hundreds of key Nazis into confessing to crimes which they never committed, or into framing their fellow Nazis for those crimes, and to plant hundreds of documents in Nazi files which were never discovered until after the war, and only then, in many cases, by sheer luck. Goebbels' diary, for example, was barely rescued from being sold as 7,000 pages of scrap paper, but buried in the scattered manuscript were several telling entries (as translated in Lochner, The Goebbels Diaries, 1948, pp. 86, 147-148):

February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.

March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

Michael Shermer has pointed out that the Nazis' own estimate of the number of European Jews was eleven million, and sixty percent of eleven million is 6.6 million. This is fairly close to the actual figure. (Actually, forty percent was a serious overestimate of the survival rate of Jews who were captured, but there were many Jews who escaped.)

In any case, most of the diary is quite mundane, and interesting only to historians. Did the supposed Jewish conspiracy forge seven thousand pages to insert just a few lines? How did they manage to know Goebbels' affairs intimately enough to avoid contradictions, e.g. putting him or his associates in the wrong city at the wrong date?

As even the revisionist David Cole has admitted, revisionists have yet to provide a satisfactory explanation of this document.

Regarding postwar testimony from Nazis, were they all tortured into confessing to heinous crimes which they supposedly did not commit? This might be believable if only a few Nazis were captured after the war, or maybe if some had courageously stood up in court and shouted to the world about the supposed attempt to silence them. But hundreds testified regarding the Holocaust, in trials dating from late 1945 until the 1960s. (For example, see Böck, Hofmann, Hössler, Klein, Münch, and Stark.)

Many of these Nazis testified as witnesses and were not accused of crimes. What was the basis for their supposed coercion?

Many of these trials were in German courts. Did the Germans torture their own countrymen? Well, Holocaust-deniers sometimes claim that the Jews have secretly infiltrated the German government and control everything about it. They prefer not to talk too much about this theory, however, because it is clearly on the lunatic fringe.

The main point is that not one of these supposed torture victims -- in fifty years, not one -- has come forth to support the claim that testimony was coerced.

On the contrary, confirmation and reconfirmation of their testimony has continued across the years. What coercion could have convinced Judge Konrad Morgen to testify to the crimes he witnessed at the International Nuremberg Trial in 1946, where he was not accused of any crime? And to later testify at the Auschwitz trial at Frankfurt, Germany, in 1963-65? What coercion was applied to SS Doctor Johann Kremer to make him testify in his own defense in 1947, and then, after having been convicted in both Poland and Germany, emerge after his release to testify again as a witness at the Frankfurt trial? What coercion was applied to Böck, Gerhard Hess, Hölblinger, Storch, and Wiebeck, all former SS men, all witnesses at Frankfurt, none accused of any crime there?

Holocaust-deniers point to small discrepancies in testimonies to try to discredit them. The assumption, unstated, is that the reader will accept minor discrepancies as evidence of a vast, over-reaching Jewish conspiracy. This is clearly ludicrous.

In fact, the discrepancies and minor errors in detail argue against, not for, the conspiracy theory. Why would the conspirators have given different information to different Nazis? In fact, if all the testimonies, from the Nazis' to the inmates', sounded too similar, it is certain that the Holocaust-deniers would cite that as evidence of a conspiracy.

What supposed coercion could reach across four decades, to force former SS-Untersturmführer Dr. Hans Münch to give an interview, against the will of his family, on Swedish television? In the 1981 interview, he talked about Auschwitz:

Interviewer: Isn't the ideology of extermination contrary to a doctor's ethical values?

Münch: Yes, absolutely. There is no discussion. But I lived in that environment, and I tried in every possible way to avoid accepting it, but I had to live with it. What else could I have done? And I wasn't confronted with it directly until the order came that I and my superior and another one had to take part in the exterminations since the camp's doctors were overloaded and couldn't cope with it.

Interviewer: I must ask something. Doubters claim that "special treatment" could mean anything. It didn't have to be extermination.

Münch: "Special treatment" in the terminology of the concentration camp means physical extermination. If it was a question of more than a few people, where nothing else than gassing them was worthwhile, they were gassed.

Interviewer: "Special treatment" was gassing?

Münch: Yes, absolutely.

And what supposed coercion could reach across four decades, to force former SS-Unterscharführer Franz Suchomel into giving an interview for the film Shoah? Speaking under (false) promises of anonymity, he told of the crimes committed at the Treblinka death camp (from the book Shoah, Claude Lanzmann, 1985, p. 54):

Interviewer: You are a very important eyewitness, and you can explain what Treblinka was.

Suchomel: But don't use my name.

Interviewer: No, I promised. All right, you've arrived at Treblinka.

Suchomel: So Stadie, the sarge, showed us the camps from end to end. Just as we went by, they were opening the gas-chamber doors, and people fell out like potatoes. Naturally, that horrified and appalled us. We went back and sat down on our suitcases and cried like old women.

Each day one hundred Jews were chosen to drag the corpses to the mass graves. In the evening the Ukrainians drove those Jews into the gas chambers or shot them. Every day!

Ask the deniers why they shrug off the testimony of Franz Suchomel. Greg Raven will tell you that "it is not evidence...bring me some evidence, please." Others will tell you that Suchomel and Münch were crazy, or hallucinating, or fantasizing.

But the fantasy is obviously in the minds of those who choose to ignore the mass of evidence and believe instead in a hypothetical conspiracy, supported by nothing but their imaginations.

That total lack of evidence is why the "conspiracy assumption" almost always remains an unspoken assumption. To our knowledge, there has not been one single solitary "revisionist" paper, article, speech, pamphlet, book, audiotape, videotape, or newsletter which provides any details about this supposed Jewish/Zionist conspiracy which did all the dirty work. Not one.

At best, the denial literature makes veiled references to the World Jewish Congress perpetuating a "hoax" (in Butz, 1976) -- no details are provided. Yet the entire case of Holocaust-denial rests on this supposed conspiracy.

As for the testimony of the survivors, which the "revisionists" claim is the only evidence, there are indeed numerous testimonies to gassings and other forms of atrocities, from Jewish inmates who survived the camps, and also from other inmates like POWs. Many of the prisoners that testified about the gassing are not Jewish, of course. Look for instance at the testimony of Polish officer Zenon Rozansky about the first homicidal gassing in Auschwitz, in which 850 Russian POWs were gassed to death, in Reitlinger, The Final Solution, p. 154:

Those who were propped against the door leant with a curious stiffness and then fell right at our feet, striking their faces hard against the concrete floor. Corpses! Corpses standing bolt upright and filling the entire corridor of the bunker, till they were packed so tight that it was impossible for more to fall.

Which of the "revisionists" will deny this? Which of them was there? Which of them has the authority to tell Rozansky what he did or did not see?

The statement that "no 'survivor' claims to have actually witnessed any gassing" is clearly false; this was changed to "few survivors" in later versions, which is close to the truth.

But we do not need to rely solely on testimony, from the survivors, Nazis, or otherwise. Many wartime documents, not postwar descriptions, specifically regarding gassings and other atrocities, were seized by the U.S. armed forces. Most are in the National Archives in Washington, D.C.; some are in Germany.

Regarding the gassing vans, precursors to the gas chambers, we find, for example, a top secret document from SS Untersturmführer Becker to SS Obersturmbannführer Rauff (from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 1946, Vol. I, pp. 999-1001):

If it has rained for instance for only one half hour, the van cannot be used because it simply skids away. It can only be used in absolutely dry weather. It is only a question now whether the van can only be used standing at the place of execution. First the van has to be brought to that place, which is possible only in good weather. ...

The application of gas usually is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My directions now have proved that by correct adjustment of the levers death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully.

And Just wrote of the gas vans to Rauff, on June 5, 1942, in a letter marked both "top secret" and "only copy". This is a horrific masterpiece of Nazi double-talk, referring to killing as "processing" and the victims as "subjects" and "the load." (See Kogon, Nazi Mass Murder, 1993, pp. 228-235.)

Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three vans, without any faults occurring in the vehicles. ...

The normal capacity of the vans is nine to ten per square meter. The capacity of the larger special Saurer vans is not so great. The problem is not one of overloading but of off-road maneuverability on all terrains, which is severely diminished in this van. It would appear that a reduction in the cargo area is necessary. This can be achieved by shortening the compartment by about one meter. The problem cannot be solved by merely reducing the number of subject treated, as has been done so far. For in this case a longer running time is required, as the empty space also needs to be filled with CO [the poison exhaust gas]. ...

Greater protection is needed for the lighting system. The grille should cover the lamps high enough up to make it impossible to break the bulbs. It seems that these lamps are hardly ever turned on, so the users have suggested that they could be done away with. Experience shows, however, that when the back door is closed and it gets dark inside, the load pushes hard against the door. The reason for this is that when it becomes dark inside, the load rushes toward what little light remains. This hampers the locking of the door. It has also been noticed that the noise provoked by the locking of the door is linked to the fear aroused by the darkness.

Slip-ups occurred in written correspondence regarding the gas chambers themselves, some of which, fortunately, escaped destruction and were found after the war. A memo written to SS man Karl Bischoff on November 27, 1942 describes the gas chamber in Krema II not with the usual mundane name of "Leichenkeller," but rather as the "Sonderkeller" "special cellar."

And two months later, on January 29, 1943, Bischoff wrote a memo to Kammler, referring to that same chamber as the "Vergasungskeller." (See Gutman, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, 1994, pp. 223, 227.) "Vergasungskeller" means exactly what it sounds like: "gassing cellar," an underground gas chamber.

Holocaust-deniers turn to Arthur Butz, who provides a specious explanation for the Vergasungskeller: "Vergasung," he says, cannot refer to killing people with gas, but only to the process of converting a solid or liquid into gas. Therefore, he says the "Vergasungskeller," must have been a special room where the fuel for the Auschwitz ovens was converted into gas -- a "gasification cellar."

There are three problems with this explanation. First, "Vergasung" certainly can refer to killing people with gas; Butz does not speak German and he should not try to lecture about the language. Second, there is no room that could possibly serve this function which Butz describes -- years after writing his book, he admitted this, and helplessly suggested that there might be another building somewhere in the camp that might house a gasification cellar. Third, the type of oven used at Auschwitz did not require any gasification process! The ovens burned solid fuel. (See Gutman, op. cit., pp. 184-193.)

So what does the term "gassing cellar" refer to? Holocaust-deniers have yet to offer any believable explanation.

An inventory, again captured after the war, revealed fourteen showerheads and one gas-tight door listed for the gas chamber in Krema III. Holocaust-deniers claim that room was a morgue; they do not offer to explain what use a morgue has for showerheads and a gas-tight door. (See a photograph of the document, or Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation, 1989, pp. 231, 438.)

A memo from the Auschwitz construction office, dated March 31, 1943, says (Hilberg, Documents of Destruction, 1971, pp. 207-208):

We take this occasion to refer to another order of March 6, 1943, for the delivery of a gas door 100/192 for Leichenkeller 1 of Krema III, Bw 30a, which is to be built in the manner and according to the same measure as the cellar door of the opposite Krema II, with peep hole of double 8 millimeter glass encased in rubber. This order is to be viewed as especially urgent....

Why would morgues have urgently needed peepholes made out of a double layer of third-of-an-inch-thick glass?

The question of whether it can be proved that the cyanide gas was used in the Auschwitz gas chambers has intruiged the deniers. Their much-heralded Leuchter Report, for example, expends a great deal of effort on the question of whether traces of cyanide residue remain there today. But we do not need to look for chemical traces to confirm cyanide use (Gutman, op. cit., p. 229):

Letters and telegrams exchanged on February 11 and 12 [1943] between the Zentralbauleitung and Topf mention a wooden blower for Leichenkeller 1. This reference confirms the use of the morgue as a gas chamber: Bischoff and Prüfer thought that the extraction of air mixed with concentrated prussic acid [cyanide] (20 g per cu m) required a noncorroding ventilator.

Bischoff and Prüfer turned out to be wrong, and a metal fan ended up working acceptably well. But the fact that they thought it necessary demonstrates that cyanide was to be routinely used in the rooms which deniers call morgues. (Cyanide is useless for disinfecting morgues, as it does not kill bacteria.)

Other captured documents, even if they don't refer directly to some part of the extermination process, refer to it by implication. A captured memo to SS-Brigadeführer Kammler reveals that the expected incineration capacity of the Auschwitz ovens was a combined total of 4,756 corpses per day (see a photograph of the document or Kogon, op. cit., p. 157).

Deniers often claim that this total could not be achieved in practice (see question 45). That's not the point. These crematoria were carefully designed, in 1942, to have sufficient capacity to dispose of 140,000 corpses per month -- in a camp that housed only 125,000. We can conclude that massive deaths were predicted, indeed planned-for, as early as mid-1942. A camp designed to incinerate its full capacity of inmates every four weeks is not merely a detention center.

Finally, apart from the abundant testimonies, confessions, and physical evidence of the extermination process, there is certainly no want of evidence of the Nazis' intentions and plans.

Here are just a few examples. Hans Frank's diary (from Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, 1946, Vol. I, pp. 992, 994):

But what should be done with the Jews? Do you think they will be settled down in the 'Ostland' [eastern territories], in [resettlement] villages? This is what we were told in Berlin: Why all this bother? We can do nothing with them either in the 'Ostland' nor in the 'Reichkommissariat.' So liquidate them yourself.

Gentlemen, I must ask you to rid yourself of all feeling of pity. We must annihilate the Jews, wherever we find them and wherever it is possible, in order to maintain the structure of the Reich as a whole. ...

We cannot shoot or poison these 3,500,000 Jews, but we shall nevertheless be able to take measures, which will lead, somehow, to their annihilation....

That we sentence 1,200,000 Jews to die of hunger should be noted only marginally.

Himmler's speech at Posen on October 4, 1943 was captured on audiotape (Trial of the Major War Criminals, 1948, Vol. XXIX, p. 145, trans. by current author):

I refer now to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. This is one of those things that is easily said: "the Jewish people are being exterminated," says every Party member, "quite true, it's part of our plans, the elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it."

The extermination effort was even mentioned in at least one official Nazi court verdict. In May 1943, a Munich court wrote in its decision against SS-Untersturmführer Max Taubner that:

The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against the Jews as such. The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the Jews that were killed is any great loss. Although the accused should have recognized that the extermination of the Jews was the duty of Kommandos which were set up especially for this purpose, he should be excused for considering himself to have the authority to take part in the extermination of Jewry himself.

And Hitler spoke quite clearly in public on no fewer than three occasions. On January 30, 1939, seven months before Germany invaded Poland, he spoke publicly to the Reichstag (transcribed from Skeptic magazine, Vol. 2, No. 4, p. 50):

Today I want to be a prophet once more: if international finance Jewry inside and outside of Europe should succeed once more in plunging nations into another world war, the consequence will not be the Bolshevation of the earth and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe.

By the way, this last phrase is, in German, "die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa," which German-speakers will realize is quite unambiguous.

In September, 1942:

...if Jewry should plot another world war in order to exterminate the Aryan peoples in Europe, it would not be the Aryan people which would be exterminated but Jewry...

On November 8, 1942:

You will recall the session of the Reichstag during which I declared: if Jewry should imagine that it could bring about an international world war to exterminate the European races, the result will not be the extermination of the European races, but the extermination of Jewry in Europe. People always laughed about me as a prophet. Of those who laughed then, countless numbers no longer laugh today, and those who still laugh now will perhaps no longer laugh a short time from now.

There are many other examples of documents and testimonies that could be presented.

Keep in mind that the IHR's answer to "what proof exists?" is "none." It has certainly been demonstrated already that this pat answer is totally dishonest. And this is the main point we wish to communicate: that Holocaust-denial is dishonest.

We continue by analyzing the remaining, more-specific, claims about what evidence supposedly does not exist.

# "No mounds of ashes" is an internal contradiction. In an article in the journal published by the same IHR that publishes these Q&A, the Journal's editor reported that a Polish commission in 1946 found human ash at the Treblinka death camp to a depth of over twenty feet. This article is available on The IHR's web site.

(Apparently some survivors claimed that the corpses were always thoroughly cremated. Because uncremated human remains were mixed with the ash, the editor suggested that the testimonies were false. Amazingly, he had no comment on how a twenty-foot layer of human ashes came to be there in the first place. Perhaps he felt that to be unworthy of mention.)

There are also piles of ashes at Maidanek. At Auschwitz-Birkenau, ashes from cremated corpses were dumped into the rivers and swamps surrounding the camp, and used as fertilizer for nearby farmers' fields.

# "No crematoria" capable of disposing of millions of corpses? Absolutely false, the crematoria were more than capable of the job, according to both the Nazis' own internal memos and the testimony of survivors. Holocaust-deniers deliberately confuse civilian, funeral-home crematoria with the huge industrial ovens of the death camps. This is discussed in much detail in the replies to questions 42 and 45.

# "No piles of clothes"? Apparently, the IHR considers piles of clothes to be "hard evidence"! This is strange, because they do not deny the other sorts of piles found at Nazi camps: piles of eyeglasses, piles of shoes (at Auschwitz, Belzec, and Maidanek), piles of gold teeth, piles of burned corpses, piles of unburned corpses, piles of artificial limbs (see Swiebocka, Auschwitz: A History in Photographs, 1993, p. 210), piles of human hair (ibid, p. 211), piles of ransacked luggage (ibid, p. 213), piles of shaving-brushes (ibid, p. 215), piles of combs (ibid), piles of pots and pans (ibid), and yes, even the piles of clothes (ibid, p. 214) that the IHR claims do not exist.

Perhaps the authors of the 66 Q&A realized that it was dangerous for them to admit that these piles were hard evidence, because then they would also be forced to admit a number of other things as "hard evidence." Perhaps this is why they removed this phrase from the revised 66 Q&A.

If items were not generally found in mass quantities, it is only because the Nazis distributed them to the German population. A memo on this was captured, revealing that they even redistributed women's underwear.

# "No human soap"? This is true, but misleading. Though there is some evidence that soap was made from corpses on a very limited experimental scale, the rumored "mass production" was never done, and no soap made from human corpses is known to exist. However, there is sworn testimony, never refuted, from British POWs and a German army official, stating that soap experiments were performed, and the recipe for the soap was captured by the Allies. To state flatly that the Nazis did not make soap from human beings is incorrect.

# "No lamp shades made of human skin?" False -- lampshades and other human-skin "ornaments" were introduced as evidence in both trials of Ilse Koch, and were shown to a U.S. Senate investigation committee in the late 40s. We know they were made of human skin because they bore tattoos, and because a microscopic forensic analysis of the items was performed. (A detailed page on this is being prepared.)

# "No records"? This is nonsense (which may explain why this claim was removed from the "revised" versions of the 66 Q&A). True, extermination by gassing was always referred to with code-words, and those victims who arrived at death camps only to be immediately gassed were not recorded in any books. But there are slip-ups in the code-word usage that reveal the true meanings, as already described. There are inventories and requisitions for the Krema which reveal items anomalous with ordinary use but perfect for mass homicidal gassing. There are deportation train records which, pieced together, speak clearly. And so on. Several examples have been given above.

# "No credible demographic statistics"? This is the second internal contradiction -- see question 2 and question 15. The Anglo-American committee who studied the issue estimated the number of Jewish victims at 5.7 million. This was based on population statistics. Here is the exact breakdown, country by country:

Germany 195,000
Austria 53,000
Czechoslovakia 255,000
Denmark 1,500
France 140,000
Belgium 57,000
Luxemburg 3,000
Norway 1,000
Holland 120,000
Italy 20,000
Yugoslavia 64,000
Greece 64,000
Bulgaria 5,000
Rumania 530,000
Hungary 200,000
Poland 3,271,000
USSR 1,050,000
Less dispersed refugees (308,000)
Total number of Jews killed 5,721,500

(This estimate was arrived at using population statistics, and not by adding the number of casualties at each camp. These are also available -- for instance, a separate file with the ruling of a German court regarding the number of victims in Treblinka is available. The SS kept rather accurate records, and many of the documents survived, reinforced by eyewitness accounts).

Some estimates are lower, some are higher, but this is the magnitude in question. In an article in CMU's student newspaper, the head of CMU's History Department, Peter Stearns, is quoted as saying that newly discovered documents -- especially in the former USSR -- indicate that the number of victims is higher than six million. Other historians claim not much over five million. The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust uses 5,596,000 as a minimum and 5,860,000 as a maximum (Gutman, 1990, p. 1799).

# In summary:

"Revisionists" often claim, correctly, that the burden of proof is on historians. The proof, of course, has been a matter of public record since late 1945, and is available in libraries around the world. The burden has been met, many, many times over. You've just seen a brief presentation of some of the highlights of that immense body of proof; much more is readily available.

To even argue that the Holocaust never happened is ludicrous. To claim straight-faced that none of this proof even exists is beyond ludicrous, and it is a clear example of "revisionist" dishonesty.

http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi

Fucking geeks

No. Actually there was quite a bit of torture.

More disturbing, however, were the methods employed to extract statements and "confessions" at Nuremberg, particularly those from S.S. officers which were used to support the extermination charge. The American Senator, Joseph McCarthy, in a statement given to the American Press on May 20th, 1949, drew attention to the following cases of torture to secure such confessions. In the prison of the Swabisch Hall, he stated, officers of the S.S. Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler were flogged until they were soaked in blood, after which their sexual organs were trampled on as they lay prostrate on the ground. As in the notorious Malmedy Trials of private soldiers, the prisoners were hoisted in the air and beaten until they signed the confessions demanded of them. On the basis of such "confessions" extorted from S.S. Generals Sepp Dietrich and Joachim Paiper, the Leibstandarte was convicted as a "guilty organisation". S.S. General Oswald Pohl, the economic administrator of the concentration camp system, had his face smeared with faeces and was subsequently beaten until he supplied his confession. In dealing with these cases, Senator McCarthy told the Press: "I have heard evidence and read documentary proofs to the effect that the accused persons were beaten up, maltreated and physically tortured by methods which could only be conceived in sick brains. They were subjected to mock trials and pretended executions, they were told their families would be deprived of their ration cards. All these things were carried out with the approval of the Public Prosecutor in order to secure the psychological atmosphere necessary for the extortion of the required confessions. If the United States lets such acts committed by a few people go unpunished, then the whole world can rightly criticise us severely and forever doubt the correctness of our motives and our moral integrity." The methods of intimidation described were repeated during trials at Frankfurt-am-Mein and at Dachau, and large numbers of Germans were convicted for atrocities on the basis of their admissions. The American Judge Edward L. van Roden, one of the three members of the Simpson Army Commission which was subsequently appointed to investigate the methods of justice at the Dachau trials, revealed the methods by which these admissions were secured in the Washington Daily News, January 9th, 1949. His account also appeared in the British newspaper, the Sunday Pictorial, January 23rd, 1949. The methods he described were: "Posturing as priests to hear confessions and give absolution; torture with burning matches driven under the prisoners finger-nails; knocking out of teeth and breaking jaws; solitary confinement and near starvation rations." Van Roden explained: "The statements which were admitted as evidence were obtained from men who had first been kept in solitary confinement for three, four and five months . . . The investigators would put a black hood over the accused's head and then punch him in the face with brass knuckles, kick him and beat him with rubber hoses . . . All but two of the Germans, in the 139 cases we investigated, had been kicked in the testicles beyond repair. This was standard operating procedure with our American investigators." The "American" investigators responsible (and who later functioned as the prosecution in the trials) were: Lt.-Col. Burton F. Ellis (chief of the War Crimes Committee) and his assistants, Capt. Raphael Shumacker, Lt. Robert E. Byrne, Lt. William R. Perl, Mr. Morris Ellowitz, Mr. Harry Thon, and Mr. Kirschbaum. The legal adviser of the court was Col. A. H. Rosenfeld. The reader will immediately appreciate from their names that the majority of these people were "biased on racial grounds" in the words of Justice Wenersturm - that is, were Jewish, and therefore should never have been involved in any such investigation. Despite the fact that "confessions" pertaining to the extemination of the Jews were extracted under these conditions, Nuremberg statements are still regarded as conclusive evidence for the Six Million by writers like Reitlinger and others, and the illusion is maintained that the Trials were both impartial and impeccably fair. When General Taylor, the Chief Public Prosecutor, was asked where he had obtained the figure of the Six Million, he replied that it was based on the confession of S.S. General Otto Ohlendorf. He, too, was tortured and his case is examined below. But as far as such "confessions" in general are concerned, we can do no better than quote the British Sunday Pictorial when reviewing the report of Judge van Roden: "Strong men were reduced to broken wrecks ready to mumble any admission demanded by their prosecutors."
 
 

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v01/v01p131_Harwood.html

No soap, and many people were caught embellishing lies like this, i.e. lying through their asses. Funny thing, is that holocaust mythologicians actually lie so much their credibility is as low as nil. Where is the nazi fertilizer and flying monkies with head beams? You still haven't proven that six million Jews were killed. All you've got are what Jews, who hated and hate the nazis, said, what people under torture said, and what people said AFTER the war when they knew their asses would be on the fire if they didn't agree with the holohoax.

Human Soap
RICHARD HARWOOD & DITLIEB FELDERER

(Skipped to make post shorter, can be found at site)
This allegation is somewhat ironic, for Dr. Butz indicates in his book (109: p. 247) that Weissmandel was the likely initial source of the entire Holocaust myth, and that his training in Talmudic lore enabled him to draw on a rich and bizarre well of imagery. Butz cites Talmudic passages which describe how 4 billion (or in other sources, 40 million) Jews were slain by the Romans; how the tidal wave of Jewish blood carried boulders into the sea and stained the water for four miles out; how Jewish bodies were used as fence posts; how Jewish blood was used as fertilizer on Roman vineyards; and how Jewish children were rolled up in their Torah scroll and burned alive. In his book The Six Million Reconsidered (Noontide, 1979), William Grimstad deals even more effectively with the uncanny resemblance of modern-day "Holocaust" allegations with ancient Talmudic and Biblical anecdotes. On page 42, he shows a Talmudic illustration of the Fiery Statue of Molech, which he points out, bears a curious similarity to Auschwitzian "gas-ovens."

But there is in the U.S. National Archives a document number 740.00116 EW/726, which appears to be "information" received in November 1942 from an anonymous Vatican source called "Mr. F." It consists of a three-page description in French of events which were allegedly transpiring in Poland. Inter alia, the document reports:

    Farms for the breeding of human beings are being organized to which women and girls are brought for the purpose of being made mothers of children who are then taken from them to be raised in Nazi establishments... Mass execution of Jews continues... They are killed by poison gas in chambers especially prepared for that purpose (often in railway cars) and by machine-gun fire, following which the dead and the dying are covered with earth ... Reports are being circulated to the effect that the Germans are making use of their corpses in plants manufacturing chemical products (soap making factories).

It would thus appear that the entire allegation is founded on anonymous reports and speculative hearsay. No one can come up with any locations, dates, or names. Of course, this has not prevented popular "historians" such as William L. Shirer from perpetuating the myth:

    There was testimony at the Nuremberg Trials that the ashes were sometimes sold as fertilizer. One Danzig firm, according to a document offered by the Russian prosecution, constructed an electrically-heated tank for making soap out of human fat. Its "recipe" called for "12 pounds of human fat, 10 quarts of water, and 8 ounces to a pound of caustic soda ... all boiled for two or three days and then cooled. (4: p. 1264)

As "authority" Shirer states in his footnote 59: Nuremberg document "ND USSR-8, p. 197. Transcript" (4: p. 1518). I suppose he must mean the same "electrically-heated tank" which appears in the Encyclopedia Judaica described above. Unfortunately, the encyclopedia does not give a source for this illustration.

Let us pause for a moment and examine this Soviet soap recipe. We must assume, first of all, that quite a few corpses will be needed to obtain 12 pounds of fat, since we are told the Jews were just skin and bone anyway. But the Soviet idea of boiling "all" the ingredients together just does not coincide with established soap formulas. Norman Stark's Forrnula Book calls for "a lot of rendered animal fat" and states that the water and caustic soda should be mixed with cold water (20: p. 63). Our Soviet "experts" must have missed some basics on soap-making, for Stark tells us that the caustic soda should not be boiled with the water as the mixture will heat up anyway by the chemical action of the lye. The tallow is then melted, and after proper adjustment of the temperature, the lye solution is poured into the tallow and then stirred. This process would seem to make redundant the "electrically heated tank" shown in the encyclopedia. One also wonders about capacity.

Eight ounces of caustic soda for each pound of human fat must mean 96 ounces for this recipe. Most of the water, 10 quarts of it, would mix with the lye. I simply cannot understand how the ultra-efficient Germans, working with the mass extermination of millions of people (as they were supposed to), would have bothered with such a small "factory," fussing around with eight ounces of this and ten quarts of that. Surely the "mills of death" could do better than this?

In the process of tracking down mentions of "human soap" I came across a modern Polish tract by Dr. Adolf Gawalewicz which stated that "soup was prepared from human flesh" (3: insert p. 7). Knowing how badly Polish translations are often made, I thought that the author perhaps meant "soap," but a cross-reference to the French and German translations again shows "soup." This would appear to be one of the even rarer allegations that the Germans encouraged cannibalism!

Many Exterminationist books make no mention at all of the "soap" story; even outlandish books such as We Have Not Forgotten (2 & 6) which covers every other conceivable German atrocity. The same is true of the numerous other "Holocaustiana" books which I have plowed through. Surely if there were such factories there would be ample evidence to write book after book, article after article, on this one subject.

Even the "authoritative" 7 volume report of the International Auschwitz Committee, written by the same Dr. Gawalewicz who wrote the Auschwitz guide-book (3) referred to above, makes only passing reference to "human soap." The English edition of the work states:

    Is that not some sort of exaggeration, some unintended injustice, in regard to those hundreds of thousands whose ashes were scattered by the wind-nobody knows where-whose bodies were dissolved to use the fat for soap; whose hair was used to make mattrasses?

    (Vol. 3, Part 1: p. 36)

(I suppose the translators have come adrift here again, for a "mattrass" is a slender glass tube used in a laboratory. They probably mean "mattress"). This is the only mention of "soap" throughout this massive work, in spite of all those "hundreds of thousands." Evidently something must be wrong.

Determined to get to the bottom of the "human soap" problem, I paid a visit to Danzig, and unsuccessfully tried to locate the site of the "human soap factory." At the nearby Stutthof "extermination camp" I again sought evidence, but not one of the officials or guides there could help. Nor was there any evidence on display in among the numerous other examples of German "atrocities."

I journeyed deeper into Poland to the museum of Auschwitz-Birkenau, and when I again found no evidence of "human soap" on display', I inquired of the officials if they might have a sample in their archives. I spoke with Mrs. Irena Stafanska, curator of the archives, and Mr. Franciszek Piper, one of the museum guides. Finally, Piper shook his shoulders, gave me a pleasant smile, and informed me embarrassingly that their own forensic examination of their "human soap" samples had proved it to be just ordinary soap. But what about the specimens of "human soap" which had been exhibited at Nuremberg? Where were they? Were they not at Auschwitz?

I was unable to penetrate the subject any further, as no one was enthusiastic about hearing any more about it. I continued my search through the exhibits, but still was unable to find any trace.

Undoubtedly the "human soap" World War Two version is just about as real as the World War One yarn about the wicked Huns turning the bodies of their dead soldiers into soap. At the end of WWI, a certain Virginia newspaper editorialized that in future wars "propaganda must be more subtle and clever." (Ponsonby, pp. 102-113). But obviously the paper did not have a high circulation in Russia, for the Soviets did not heed their advice in the later conflagration.

Quote:
--------------
# "No lamp shades made of human skin?" False -- lampshades and other human-skin "ornaments" were introduced as evidence in both trials of Ilse Koch, and were shown to a U.S. Senate investigation committee in the late 40s. We know they were made of human skin because they bore tattoos, and because a microscopic forensic analysis of the items was performed. (A detailed page on this is being prepared.)
---------

I'm laughing at you. I truly am. Here's why. The tatoo thing.

1. Goats and cows are given tattoos as an alternative to branding.
2. Human DNA and Goat DNA don't look the same sherlock.
3. Those couldn't have been Jews. Jews can't get tattoos.

-----
Why are tattoos forbidden?
There are those who say that this is a divine decree whose reason is unknown to us (Rashi on Tractate Makoth 21A). Maimonides writes that "...this was the custom of the gentiles that they inscribe themselves for idol worship that is to say that he is a slave sold and enlisted for its worship..."(Laws of Idol Worship 12:11).
Tattoos: An Abomination
Our sages looked upon tattoos as an abomination, as can be seen from the following Midrash (Tanchuma Lech Lecha 20): "...Yehoyakim stretched his foreskin as it is said (II Chronicles 36:8) And the rest of Yehoyakim's matters and his abominations that he did and that was found upon him.... What was found upon him? That he stretched his foreskin. And there are those that say that he tattooed himself."
------

http://www.geocities.com/mnlerner2000/

Source: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p405_Weber.html
The Commandant and his wife

The first Commandant, Karl Koch, ran Buchenwald from 1937 until early 1942, when he was transferred to Majdanek. He proved a notoriously brutal and corrupt administrator who enriched himself with valuables stolen from numerous inmates, whom he then had killed to cover up his thefts. The camp physician, Dr. Waldemar Hoven, murdered many inmates in cooperation with Koch and the Communist underground camp organization. Koch was eventually charged by an SS court with murder and corruption, found guilty and executed. (note 5)

His wife, Ilse Koch, was involved in many of her husband's crimes, but the fantastic charge that she had lamp shades and other items manufactured from the skins of murdered inmates is not true. This allegation was made by the United States prosecution team at the main Nuremberg trial. (note 6)

General Lucius D. Clay, Commander in Chief of U.S. Forces in Europe and Military Governor of the U.S. Occupation Zone of Germany, 1947-49, carefully reviewed the Use Koch case in 1948 and found that, whatever her other misdeeds, the lampshade charge was baseless. He commuted her sentence from life imprisonment to four years and informed the Army Department in Washington "There is no convincing evidence that she [Ilse Koch] selected inmates for extermination in order to secure tatooed skins or that she possessed any articles made of human skin." (note 7) During a 1976 interview Clay recalled the case:

    We tried Ilse Koch ... She was sentenced to life imprisonment, and I commuted it to three [four] years. And our press really didn't like that. She had been destroyed by the fact that an enterprising reporter who first went into her house had given her the beautiful name, the "Bitch of Buchenwald," and he had found some white lampshades in there which he wrote up as being made out of human flesh

    Well, it turned out actually that it was goat flesh But at the trial it was still human flesh. It was almost impossible for her to have gotten a fair trial.

    ... The Germans picked her up and gave her 12 years for her treatment of her own people. But it wasn't really a war crime in the strict sense of the word.

    And those are the kinds of things that we had to deal with all the time. (note 8)

In response to Treblinka, I've got a whole BOOK for you!

 Carlo Mattogno, Jürgen Graf, Treblinka. Extermination Camp or Transit Camp?

It is claimed that at Treblinka camp, between 700,000 and 3,000,000 Jews were murdered in 1942 and 1943. The weapons used were alleged to have been stationary and/or mobile gas chambers, poison gases of both fast acting and slow acting varieties, quicklime, superheated steam, electricity, diesel exhaust fumes... This thorough study exposes the Treblinka hoax.

http://vho.org/dl/ENG/t.pdf

This whole thread is like watching Dragon Ball Z.

Clear population records? No. It's all here:

http://vho.org/dl/ENG/Hoax.pdf

--------------------
# "No crematoria" capable of disposing of millions of corpses? Absolutely false, the crematoria were more than capable of the job, according to both the Nazis' own internal memos and the testimony of survivors. Holocaust-deniers deliberately confuse civilian, funeral-home crematoria with the huge industrial ovens of the death camps. This is discussed in much detail in the replies to questions 42 and 45.
------------------------
Read the leutcher report:

http://www.ihr.org/books/leuchter/leuchter.toc.html

Here, listen to an expert:
-------------
Absurd Cremation Claims

Cremation specialists have confirmed that thousands of corpses could not possibly have been cremated every day throughout the spring and summer of 1944 at Auschwitz, as commonly alleged.

For example, Mr. Ivan Lagace, manager of a large crematory in Calgary, Canada, testified in court in April 1988 that the Auschwitz cremation story is technically impossible. The allegation that 10,000 or even 20,000 corpses were burned every day at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944 in crematories and open pits is simply "preposterous" and "beyond the realm of reality," he declared under oath. [19]
---------------

Quote:
-------------------
Suchomel: So Stadie, the sarge, showed us the camps from end to end. Just as we went by, they were opening the gas-chamber doors, and people fell out like potatoes. Naturally, that horrified and appalled us. We went back and sat down on our suitcases and cried like old women.

Each day one hundred Jews were chosen to drag the corpses to the mass graves. In the evening the Ukrainians drove those Jews into the gas chambers or shot them. Every day!
--------------------

Uhm. No. First of all, read this:

http://vho.org/dl/ENG/t.pdf

Second, that's ridiculous. People don't fall out of of gas chambers like potatoes. Also, if I remember the story right, the people gassed at treblinka were supposed to have been gassed by carbon monoxide.

Uh. Again, why with the household killing agents. You get carbon monoxide from burning charcoal and from engines. If the nazis wanted to kill some people with gas, why not use cheap gas for killing humans instead of using some mad genius scheme? It takes a hell of a long time to be killed by carbon monoxide unless you've got an ungodly concentration of the stuff. For god's sake it's cheaper and easier to shoot people.

Since you like 'survivor' testimonies, here's a good one for you.
--------------------
Survivor Testimony

Former inmates have confirmed that they saw no evidence of extermination at Auschwitz.

An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, testified about her camp experiences in a Toronto District Court in March 1988. She was interned in Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1942 for having sexual relations with a Polish forced laborer. On the train trip to the camp, a Gypsy woman told her and the others that they would all be gassed at Auschwitz.

Upon arrival, Maria and the other women were ordered to undress and go into a large concrete room without windows to take a shower. The terrified women were sure that they were about to die. But then, instead of gas, water came out of the shower heads.

Auschwitz was no vacation center, Maria confirmed. She witnessed the death of many fellow inmates by disease, particularly typhus, and quite a few committed suicide. But she saw no evidence at all of mass killings, gassings, or of any extermination program. [13]

A Jewish woman named Marika Frank arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau from Hungary in July 1944, when 25,000 Jews were supposedly gassed and cremated daily. She likewise testified after the war that she heard and saw nothing of "gas chambers" during the time she was interned there. She heard the gassing stories only later. [14]
-----------------

Look, NS Germany would have said such pansy and underhanded stuff was Jewish, and they took that seriously. If nazis wanted you dead, they'd shoot you, not create fake shower-heads and a trap room for gas. Also, if they were going to formally shoot you, they'd tell you first and let you do your last rites like everbody else does. Seriously.


The only thing you've proven is that some jews made false claims about German atrocities, and not all the jews were in on it.

You copied Nikzor's reply without even reading any of the actual books I posted, or even the undeniables FACTS I listed which contradict the holohoax. 

I'm going to repeat this. Jews were mistreated, but they weren't gassed or used for lampshades or used for soap or fertilizer, and their blood didn't wash rocks out to sea either. Sorry, no evil genius schemes here with nazis rubbing their pasty white hands together thinking up new and creative ways to kill Jews. You guys really didn't matter that much to NS Germany. You were:

1. Labor
2. About to get a one-way trip to either Israel or Madagascar.

Jews suffered under National Socialist Germany. Ok. NS Germany didn't want you. They considered you pests that they wanted to export. Big deal. Lots of people expelled Jews throughout history. That almost expulsion was over 50 years ago. I'm not going to believe obvious exaggerations and fairy tales because some Jews desperately want to believe they are the most persecuted ones of all or to somehow give them some mystical victim status which protects them from all criticism. Go read all those quotes from the 'stop the jew hatred' thread by famous people from Cicero to George Washington to Benjamin Franklin to Mark Twain to Martin Luther to etc... Jews have been persecuting other people for over two thousand years and the whole time they've been saying, "Woe is me." Before Hitler, it was the Romans killing 40 million Jews. Stop lying and get over yourselves. The romans didn't kill 6 billion Jews or 40 million Jews, and Hitler didn't kill 9 million or 6 milion or 4 million or hell, a million. And even if a million Jews died non-natural deaths during WW2, they sure as hell didn't die from gas chambers or an active program by the Nazis. 

------------------------
This allegation is somewhat ironic, for Dr. Butz indicates in his book (109: p. 247) that Weissmandel was the likely initial source of the entire Holocaust myth, and that his training in Talmudic lore enabled him to draw on a rich and bizarre well of imagery. Butz cites Talmudic passages which describe how 4 billion (or in other sources, 40 million) Jews were slain by the Romans; how the tidal wave of Jewish blood carried boulders into the sea and stained the water for four miles out; how Jewish bodies were used as fence posts; how Jewish blood was used as fertilizer on Roman vineyards; and how Jewish children were rolled up in their Torah scroll and burned alive. In his book The Six Million Reconsidered (Noontide, 1979), William Grimstad deals even more effectively with the uncanny resemblance of modern-day "Holocaust" allegations with ancient Talmudic and Biblical anecdotes. On page 42, he shows a Talmudic illustration of the Fiery Statue of Molech, which he points out, bears a curious similarity to Auschwitzian "gas-ovens."
---------------


Here's the end result:

1. No civilian Jews were gassed by National Socialist Germany, at least in large numbers in a systematic attempt at killing large numbers of Jews.
2. Six million civilian Jews did not die by exposure to toxic gas, especially not the insecticide Zyklon B, during the period of WW2.

These negative facts stand however:
1. Criminals, enemies of the state, and non-citizens (including Jews) were rounded up into concentration labor camps by National Socialist Germany.
2. Many of the residents of these concentration camps died of disease and malnutrition; in some cases, so many died from disease and starvation that mass graves were necessary such as in Bergen-Belsen. However, the death by disease and starvation was not due to the action of the National Socialist Germans, but rather by their inaction and lack of fumigants like Zyklon B or basic resources such as food and fuel.
3. Many concentration camp residents lived a life that was far below the poverty line except in the nicer concentration camps that had plentiful access to resources and educated or influential people within those camps.
4. The concentration camp residents were forced at the end of a gun to work. They were not given freedom of choice, and were only one step above prisoners of war.

>>78
You said it yourself, Jews weren't all gassed, they died from collateral war damage, disease and starvation aswell as intentional killing. Generally outcast from Germany and treated like dirt by nazi occupiers. 6 million were there circa 1939, when their families went looking for them they weren't. Auschwitz was more of a hygiene operation, so there weren't so many dead bodies lying around.

No. No civilian Jews were gassed. Many Jews did actually join allied armies, and many part Jews joined on the German side as well. Military combatants might have been might hit with military gasses.

I think that probably around half a million Jews died in concentration camps, still a large number, but a far cry from the ridiculous six million that requires a suspension of reason.
Many of those things were from things like old age and natural causes. I mean the population was also replenished in the concentration camps as well. Over that couple of years, old people died and young people were also BORN in concentration camps. Strange twist of fate, eh? Life goes on.

    According to the holocaust legend, Jewish prisoners who arrived at Auschwitz between the spring of 1942 and the fall of 1944, and who were not able to work, were immediately put to death and that no records were kept of such deaths (even though all other deaths where recorded in detail)......

9,000,000
Source: Cited by the French documentary, Night and Fog, which has been shown to millions of school students worldwide.

8,000,000
Source: The French War Crime Research Office, Doc. 31, 1945.

7,000,000
Source: Also cited by the French War Crime Research Office.

6,000,000
Source: Cited in the book Auschwitz Doctor by Miklos Nyiszli. It has since been proven that this book is a fraud and the "doctor" was never even at Auschwitz, even though the book is often cited by historians.

5,000,000 to 5,500,000
Source: Cited in 1945 at the trial of Auschwitz commander Rudolf Höss, based on his confession which was written in English, a language he never spoke.

5,000,000
Source: Cited on April 20, 1978 by the French daily, Le Monde. Also cited on January 23, 1995 by the German daily Die Welt. By September 1, 1989, Le Monde reduced the figure to 1,433,000.

4,500,000
Source: In 1945 this figure was cited by another witness at the aforementioned Höss trial.

4,000,000
Source: Cited by a Soviet document of May 6, 1945 and officially acknowledged by the Nuremberg War Crimes trial. This figure was also reported in The New York Times on April 18, 1945, although 50 years later on January 26, 1995, The New York Times and The Washington Post slashed the figure to 1,500,000 citing new findings by the Auschwitz Museum officials. In fact, the figure of 4,000,000 was later repudiated by the Auschwitz museum officials in 1990 but the figure of 1,500,000 victims was not formally announced by Polish President Lech Walesa until five years after the Auschwitz historians had first announced their discovery.

3,500,000
Source: Cited in the 1991 edition of the Dictionary of the French Language and by Claude Lanzmann in 1980 in his introduction to Filip Muller's book, Three Years in an Auschwitz Gas Chamber.

3,000,000
Source: Cited in a forced confession by Rudolf Höss, the Auschwitz commander who said this was the number of those who had died at Auschwitz prior to Dec. 1, 1943. Later cited in the June 7, 1993 issue of Heritage, the most widely read Jewish newspaper in California, even though three years previously the authorities at the Auschwitz museum had scaled down the figure to a minimum of 1,100,000 and a maximum of 1,500,000. (see below).

2,500,000
Source: Cited by Rudolf Vrba (an author of various fraudulent accounts of events he claims to have witnessed at Auschwitz) when he testified on July 16, 1981 for the Israeli government's war crimes trial of former SS official Adolf Eichmann.

2,000,000
Source: Cited by Leon Poliakov (1951) writing in Harvest of Hate; Georges Wellers, writing in 1973 in The Yellow Star at the Time of Vichy; and Lucy Dawidowicz, writing in 1975 in The War Against the Jews.

2,000,000 to 4,000,000

Source: Cited by Yehuda Bauer in 1982 in his book, A History of the Holocaust. However, by 1989 Bauer revised his figure to 1,600,000.

1,600,000
Source: This is a 1989 revision by Yehuda Bauer of his earlier figure in 1982 of 2,000,000 to 4,000,000, Bauer cited this new figure on September 22, 1989 in The Jerusalem Post, at which time he wrote "The larger figures have been dismissed for years, except that it hasn't reached the public yet."

1,500,000
Source: In 1995 this was the number of Auschwitz deaths announced by Polish President Lech Walesa as determined by those at the Auschwitz museum. This number was inscribed on the monument at the Auschwitz camp at that time, thereby "replacing" the earlier 4,000,000 figure that had been formally repudiated (and withdrawn from the monument) five years earlier in 1990. At that time, on July 17, 1990 The Washington Times reprinted a brief article from The London Daily Telegraph citing the "new" figure of 1,500,000 that had been determined by the authorities at the Auschwitz museum. This new figure was reported two years later in a UPI report published in the New York Post on March 26, 1992. On January 26, 1995 both The Washington Post and The New York Times cited this 1,500,000 figure as the new "official" figure (citing the Auschwitz Museum authorities).

1,471,595
Source: This is a 1983 figure cited by Georges Wellers who (as noted previously) had determined, writing in 1973, that some 2,000,000 had died.

1,433,000
Source: This figure was cited on September 1, 1989 by the French daily, Le Monde, which earlier, on April 20, 1978, had cited the figure at 4,000,000.

1,250,000
Source: In the book, The Destruction of the European Jews, by Raul Hilberg (1985).

1,100,000 to 1,500,000

Source: Sources for this estimate are Yisrael Gutman and Michael Berenbaum in their 1984 book, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp. This estimate was later also cited by Walter Reich, former director of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, writing in The Washington Post on September 8, 1998. The upper figure of 1,500,000 is (the new) "official" figure as now inscribed at Auschwitz, with the earlier figure of 4,000,000 having been removed from the memorial at the site of the former concentration camp.

1,000,000
Source: Jean-Claude Pressac, writing in his 1989 book Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers. This is interesting since he wrote his book to repudiate so-called "Holocaust deniers" who were called that precisely because they had questioned the numbers of those who had died at Auschwitz.

900,000
Source: Reported on August 3, 1990 11, by Aufbau, a Jewish newspaper in New York.

800,000 to 900,000

Source: Reported by Gerald Reitlinger in his book, The Final Solution.

775,000 to 800,000
Source: Jean-Claude Pressac's revised figure, put forth in his 1993 book, The Crematoria of Auschwitz: The Mass Murder's Machinery, scaling down his earlier claim of 1,000,000 dead.

630,000 to 710,000
Source: In 1994 Pressac scaled his figure down somewhat further; this is the figure cited in the German language translation of Pressac's 1993 book originally published in French. Again, this is substantially less than Pressac's 1989 figure of 1,000,000.

135,000 to 140,000
Source: This is an estimate based on documents held by the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross. It is known that International Tracing Service has a complete set of registration documents. This is thought to include a complete set of roll-call data which includes twice daily tallies of those who died. Although the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross has such records, they have never officially published an accurate count of those who died, or even an accurate report as to exactly which documents they hold. However, totals from these records have been obtained by various interested parties.

The estimate of 135,000 is roughly corroborated by the "Auschwitz death books." The death books themselves are wartime German camp records, which were captured by the Soviets towards the end of the war, and hidden in Soviet achieves, until released to the Red Cross in 1989.

The death books consist of 46 volumes which document each death at Auschwitz (each death certificate consists of the deceased person's full name, profession and religion, date and place of birth, pre-Auschwitz residence, parents' names, time of death, and cause of death as determined by a camp physician). The records for the most important years, 1942 and 1943, are almost complete (there are also a few volumes for the year 1941, but none for the year 1944 or January 1945 (when Auschwitz was evacuated)).

The Auschwitz death books contain the death certificates of some 69,000 individuals, of whom about 30,000 were listed as Jews. You may view various entries in the Auschwitz Death Books by clicking on the following links to the Auschwitz museum:

Using all available wartime records from the various camps it has been estimated that between 400,000 and 500,000 people died in the German concentration camp system (from all causes).