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Atlas Shrugged

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-18 4:47

So after all the fanfares here, I decided to check out this book. Right now I'm on chapter 3 of part 1, it got some pretty good dramas so far, although a bit different from anything I have read up to date.

So I'm curious, what's all the hate about?

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-18 5:04

Her political views.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-18 5:21

Why would people hate her political views?

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-18 9:02

>>3

Because young twenty-somethings are all hippy communist fags and Ayn Rand's basic message is that the proper moral purpose of our lives is our own happiness (making obscene amounts of money and not being required to share said money for one).

This disturbs the rebellious and naive children of middle class America because they have never had to live in a socialist country like Rand did and as such view socialism as a utopian ideal, and the greed in American capitalism as evil (because apparently it is not right for a man to keep to himself all the money that he has worked hard for).

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-18 13:47

>>4
That and the fact that she's a piss poor writer.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-18 14:31

>>4
Wow. Speaking of naive...

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-18 14:42

>>4
>because apparently it is not right for a man to keep to himself all the money that he has worked hard for
As if you can say that scamming people out of their money is "working hard."

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-18 15:18

>>7
Replacing the current system with socialism is not the answer. What the problem is is that there is socialism for the rich and capitalism for everyone else. If the rich were under the same system of capitalism, then there wouldn't be a problem.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-18 16:19

OP here

Alright, I get the gest. This is interesting, I'll finish reading this thing and maybe checkout this Objectivism of hers. So far from what I have heard it just sounds like common sense getting philosophical, but we'll see.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-18 18:42

Don't take the book too seriously, it's a portrayal of the socialist system at it's complete worst.  More of a warning, than any frontal attack on a currently functioning government.

It's a really fun book if you're able to mentally separate the fictitious plot, with the realistic.

If you end up enjoying Atlas Shrugged, read The Fountainhead.  Same style, different story.


Who is John Galt, indeed.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-18 20:25

>>7

Saying that the rich get their money from scamming people is bullshit. It's a free market. If you don't like your copy of Microsoft Windows, then buy something else, you piece of shit. The fact of the matter is that people like Bill Gates saw an opportunity and took it. And now they have lots of money.

You are just jealous because you, on the opposite end of the spectrum, have no money.

Not that it matters. Everyone is a socialist in their early twenties. When you grow up, you will have a change of heart. As they say, "The man who is not a socialist at twenty has no heart, but if he is still a socialist at forty he has no head."

Admit it, socialism is only feasible in the hopeful, naive hearts of twenty year olds.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-18 22:07

>>11
lmao I'll bet you can't even attribute that quote to anyone without looking it up

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-18 23:03

>>11

Agreed. Although giving charity certainly is a kind thing to do, it's my own goddamn money and I have no obligation to give any of it to you.

It's like back in Kindergarten, when the same kid demanded every day for a piece of your candy bar, and all you could think of was how much of a douche he was.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 0:37

>>4
>>11
>>13

So if you're not an objectivist then you must be a socialist? That's a pretty flawed argument, neither system works in the real world.

It's obvious that socialism doesn't work, every pure socialist nation has either moved away from socialism by a large degree, collapsed, or is on the verge of collapse.

As for objectivism it's just as flawed. It's all well and good to say that a man should keep all the money that he has worked hard for and each should rise and fall solely on their own merits, but what happens to that man when he falls?

What happens to the man who's poured his life into the family farm  only to have it fail due to drought? What happens to the small business owner driven out of business by the near monopolies some companies have. What about the highly skilled machinist that's suddenly become obsolete due to advances in technology?

The sad fact of the world is that most people who are poor aren't like that because they're lazy or stupid. They're poor because they lack education and opportunities, because of bad luck, because not every job pays in amounts anywhere near equal to the amount of work you do.

Without the money that government takes from you, all the safety nets that have been built into the fabric of society would not exist.

Without public schooling most of the people who have posted in this thread would be illiterate unskilled laborers.

Without Medicare and Medicaid millions would die of easily treated ailments that they simply cannot afford on what they make.

Without unemployment 10% of America would currently be living entirely on what they have saved for the future or would simply be starving in the streets.

Every single service that the government provides or guarantees that YOU use daily, public libraries,  safety or health inspections and codes, fire departments, postal service, an almost completely honest system of laws police and courts not to mention court appointed attorneys to defend those who cannot otherwise get representation, road and highway construction and maintenance, even trash pickup.
None of that would exist without the money that YOU believe THEY are stealing from you.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 0:45

>>14
"This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility.

After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US Department of Agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

Then, after spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, I drive back to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and the fire marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log onto the Internet which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and post on freerepublic and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right. "

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 5:34

>>14

>That's a pretty flawed argument, neither system works in the real world.

We sure know socialism and any variation of it (Communism, Fascism..etc.) doesn't work. Both in theory and in practice it falls miserably. In theory it evades crucial facts such as man is selfish by nature. And in practice we have Communist Russia and East/West Berlin as latest examples.

Now, on pure Laissez-faire Capitalism. It works in theory (includes all known facts) and in practice (Founding years of US). So, what's your argument that somehow "doesn't work"?

And even though you say you admit socialism is a failure in the beginning, the rest of your post seems to be an argument for socialism, kinda funny no?

In a society of pure Laissez-faire Capitalism:

>What happens to the man who's poured his life into the family farm  only to have it fail due to drought?
YOU can help him, and no one will stop you.
>What happens to the small business owner driven out of business by the near monopolies some companies have.
L2economy. monopolies can never be established in a free market. The only way for monopoly to develop is through the baring of entry on new competitors through use of force, i.e. government intervention. Today's monopolies are the exact result of government intervention with socialist policies in this mixed economy that either prevents or makes it difficult for new competitors to enter certain markets.
>What about the highly skilled machinist that's suddenly become obsolete due to advances in technology?
He will use his talent and motivation that made him into a highly skilled machinist in the first place to make profit in other more interesting endeavors. And he will be able to enjoy the fruit of the new technology that's awesome enough to make his old work obsolete.
>The sad fact of the world is that most people who are poor aren't like that because they're lazy or stupid.
Half true, consider how many poors support socialism, the very thing that's increasing their poverty.
>They're poor because they lack education and opportunities,
100% true, education in philosophy and politics, lack of opportunity caused by government intervention on the economy.
>because of bad luck
99% false, only apply to those that lost their fortune by natural disasters. Employment, invention, entrepreneurship, are not guided by luck.
>Without the money that government takes from you, all the safety nets that have been built into the fabric of society would not exist.
The very safety nets that are there to prevent troubles caused by government intervention in the first place that does nothing but create more troubles, how ironic no?
>without public schooling most of the people who have posted in this thread would be illiterate unskilled laborers.
Not in a society of pure Laissez-faire Capitalism. With free competition, private schools will offer much better service and cost lot less than public schools. Why? Because everyone wants to make a profit, and the only way to do so in LFC is by offering better service and lower cost through innovation. If you are still not satisfied, YOU can start a school and join the market
>Without Medicare and Medicaid millions would die of easily treated ailments that they simply cannot afford on what they make.
Same shit as previous.
>Without unemployment 10% of America would currently be living entirely on what they have saved for the future or would simply be starving in the streets.
There wouldn't be unemployment in a society of LFC, unless of course, you are truely lazy.
>Every single service that the government provides or guarantees that YOU use daily, public libraries,  safety or health inspections and codes, fire departments, postal service, an almost completely honest system of laws police and courts not to mention court appointed attorneys to defend those who cannot otherwise get representation, road and highway construction and maintenance, even trash pickup.
With the exception of laws, police, courts, which are strictly government domain in LFC, every other service you mentioned a free market can and will do better.

>None of that would exist without the money that YOU believe THEY are stealing from you.
And they shouldn't exist, as inferior public entities that everyone has to support financially whether they use them or not when the superior private entities of LFC that are only supported financially by their clients can exist. And as for stealing, stealing is defined as the forceful taking of one's property without the owner's voluntary consent by another individual or group of individuals. Income tax is a direct example of that.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 5:45

>>16
Fascism has absolutely nothing to do with socialism.
They're basically opposites.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 5:50

>>17

Opposite like the two sides of the same coin.

They both hold the same fundamental premise - an individual's life belong to the state instead of himself.

They only differ in the method of carrying out that premise.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 8:09

>>12
Churchill for one, but it's been said by many people in slightly different ways.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 8:22

>>14

Hey, I live in Australia. I am no stranger to welfare and high taxes. This is fine with me. It is necessary to tax and provide basic needs.

What I truly dislike are the completely unnecessary government interventions. When a company does too well, the government tries to cut them down in the spirit of "competition". This is what Rand is discussing for the most part in Atlas Shrugged. Things like laws against monopoly.

I just don't see what is so wrong with being the giant company in your industry that most people turn to. Why is it such a crime to be successful?

I will pay the Australian government's sometime 50% tax. But I won't buy into further attempts to cut down to size successful people. Why is it so important that everyone be even? Atlas Shrugged has a situation where, after struggling to invent a new lightweight strong metal, the government requires a tycoon to share this technology with the rest of the industry. A group of ungrateful morons who never believed in him in the first place. I know this is an extreme example, but this kind of thinking truly scares me.

I am a pretty generous person and I often give up things to people who I think deserve it. I just have a serious problem with forced altruism. And it's not just about tax. It's about measures put into place to limit how high people can achieve. It's the wrong kind of government intervention that disturbs me.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 9:30

>>20

>It is necessary to tax and provide basic needs.

Why is that? Why should one man be FORCED to provide for another? Be FORCED to help someone he doesn't even know?

The distinction here, one that is avoided many times, is voluntary VS forced.

There is nothing wrong with helping a fellow man in need if you sympathies with him, but there is something horribly wrong when a society, a government, adopts the policy to FORCE a man to help another without his voluntary consent.

This is the distinction between charity and welfare, the distinction between voluntary and forced, between the moral and immoral.

The willingness of whether to part 50% of your profit to government tax or to a charity are two acts as different as heaven and earth. The first would meant that you accept the premise that your work and the fruit of your labor belongs to the society, and the 50% you gain are what you are allowed to keep only by the permission of the society. The second act would have meant you own all the fruit of your labor and that because you value those who struggles in life you are willing to help them as much as you can. The first makes you a slave, the second a generous man.

>I just don't see what is so wrong with being the giant company in your industry that most people turn to. Why is it such a crime to be successful?
>Why is it so important that everyone be even?

That's the result of the philosophical view of altruism and socialism as a political collateral. In a free society where individual rights recognized, an individual's achievement is recognized by the society as belonging solely to him, because he is the one that produced it, thus, earned it. In a socialism state, any achievement is recognized erroneously as produced by the society as a whole. Thus, EVERYONE, with no distinction between whether they earned the right or not, is regarded as having a right/claim to any achievements. Thus, under this view, if someone is rich/successful, why he must have stolen all the shares that should have belonged to the poor by some mysterious and scandalous way, because after all, if all men have a claim on all achievement, shouldn't everyone be equally rich?

Socialism, or Statism, in a more generalized term, dates back to prehistorical times. It's basically the savages' tribal notion of politics when they cannot grasp the concept of individuality.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 9:59

>>21

In my most honest sense, I agree with you. But the way it's turned out tax is something that I've accepted as inevitable nowadays.

It's beyond that which I am hoping to avoid. Because it's not too late.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 12:59

>>19
Thanks for letting me know you looked it up, buddy.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 17:52

>>22

Inevitable like when a robber asking you to hand over the cash with gun pointed to your head.

There's no sense avoiding tax directly and invite persecution. The important thing is to never support it, and when the time comes, make the right stand.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 18:03

>>20
>I just don't see what is so wrong with being the giant company >in your industry that most people turn to. Why is it such a >crime to be successful?

its the idea that a corporation could dominate the market to its own advantage, thereby destroying a balanced market

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 18:30

this thread is shit

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 20:01

>>25

An idea that came from people who never bothered to take econ101.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 20:13

>>23

I didn't. I don't use quotes in the first place without knowing where they came from. Though out of all the people who have said it, I only remember Churchill.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 20:24

I understand how the Economy works.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 21:42

>>29

Then pray tell, in a free market, how exactly does a corporation "dominate" a market? and how exactly does this "domination" destroy a "balanced market"?

What does this "domination" consists of?
And what exactly is this "balanced" market you are referring to?

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 21:59

>>30
Basically, what the corporation does in its domination of a market is stick its penis into the market's asshole. This process also frequently involves hogtying, whips and ballgags. This is what we refer to as a Stable Market (SM). A more balanced corporation/market relationship would probably remove the SM element and would be more like the typical market you see everyday.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 22:31

>>31

Good one.

Sadly you paid too much attention in sex ed and too little in econ.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-19 22:43

>>32
You don't learn about all that kinky stuff in sex ed, Anonymous. ^_~

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-20 2:21

>>16
Wow you really have no idea how the real world works do you?

In a pure unregulated capitalist society if there is no profit to be made doing something then it won't be done.

Without the government interference you so despise we'd still be living in the bad old days of the industrial revolution.

You would prefer the government to stay away from businesses?

Say hello to the return of huge numbers of industrial accidents maiming and killing people, child labor, highly predatory lending practices (much worse than today's), mandatory 12 hour workdays with no overtime pay, 60 to 72 hour work weeks, contaminated food and drugs, weight and measure fraud, no job security if you fall ill, strike breakers, company "police" (hired thugs), and massive pollution to name just a small portion of what businesses have done in the past and would still be doing if the hated government hadn't FORCED them to stop.

These are the very real historical and in many parts of the world still current abuses that gave rise to communism.

As for your complaint about free services funded by taxes-
"And they shouldn't exist, as inferior public entities that everyone has to support financially whether they use them or not when the superior private entities of LFC that are only supported financially by their clients can exist."
How exactly can poor clients pay for them? How else can a poor inner city district get trash service or safe housing or even clean water ?

The simple fact of the matter is that you apparently view those less fortunate than you as some kind of lower life form. Why would anyone try to make a business providing free or low cost services to anyone? It isn't a viable business plan. Who cares if the poor can't afford healthcare or education beyond grammar school or safe food. It doesn't concern you, you have enough money to afford to live with dignity.

You don't want to contribute to society as a whole, just your little portion of it. Because that's what modern taxation is. It's how the government takes a small portion of EVERYONE'S income and uses it to keep running the entire society that you are a citizen of. Yes the rich pay a larger percentage, and those who can pay least will get the most benefit.

But the fact is that that is the price you pay to live in a society where the poor can improve themselves. A society where you don't have to scrutinize every measure of food or medicine for contaminants, dilution, efficacy or short weights. A society where threats to your livelihood, be it through bad business choices, economic shifts or competition will not mean starving in the street.

Last but not least it's the price you pay to live in a society without rank upon rank of millions of malnourished uneducated peasantry with nothing to lose planning a bloody revolution against those who exploit them for their own profit. Which, of course, is how most modern societies came about.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-20 3:49

A WOMAN with IDEAS?! Not on my watch!

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-20 7:15

>>34

>In a pure unregulated capitalist society if there is no profit to be made doing something then it won't be done.

I have no idea what you are trying to say in the second part. As for the first part, there is always profit to be made in a free market. The source of all human wealth lies in creativity and innovation. The amount of new inventions that can be created and new innovations that can be made are infinite, therefore the chances to make a profit are limitless. One only has to think.

>Without the government interference you so despise we'd still be living in the bad old days of the industrial revolution.

Oh fucking wow, you actually think the GOVERNMENT is the entity that's responsible for carrying the world from the Industrial Revolution (IR) to the modern world? Did the GOVERNMENT come up with the hundreds of thousands of new business innovations and industrial improvement that made it possible for an average man in US to earn exponentially greater amount of wealth while working half the amount of hours compared to those that lived in IR? You think that by writing a few word and passing a few laws that forces businesses to pay higher wages the government MAGICALLY improves the standard of life? Pfff, just like that? Hahahaha.

The only way standard of living can rise is through the advent of new technologies. Meaning new inventions and innovations. And the source of those two, is the free thinking mind of a man who wants to make a profit. The vast improvement of today's standard of living in US compared to that of IR is the direct result and achievement of American Businessman, Industrialists, and Scientists. The government interference in the economy have done nothing but impend the process of human achievement, from causing the Great Depression to burying countless new businesses and innovations that never saw the light of day.

The day when the government can improve living standard is the day when pigs can fly and clouds rain gold.



>These [bad conditions of IR] are the very real historical and in many parts of the world still current abuses that gave rise to communism.

Abuses? They are bad conditions, not abuses. In order for those bad conditions to qualify as abuses, it will have to mean men were subjected to them BY FORCE. Well, were men, children, and women forced to work in factories with gunmen guarding them day and night? No one was forced to work in the factories during IR. Men, women, and children CHOOSE to work there. Why? Because as bad as conditions were in the factories compared to today, they were hell of an improvement compared to life and work before IR. Men worked there because they could produce more wealth in a day than they ever could have back in cottages. Women worked there because for the first time, they can gain financial independence instead of the "go back to the kitchen". As for children, witness the unprecedented population boom in England during IR, before IR, thousands of them would have died outright or discarded. IR reduced infant mortality rates drastically, and the factories gave them a chance to earn their living afterward; however bad the condition was, it was a new alternative suddenly presented to them when their only choice was death.

As for Communism, if you think bad working condition is the one factor that leads to Communism, think again. Bad working condition is not a cause of Communism, it is something that fuels the real cause. The ultimate cause of Communism is the philosophical view of sStatism and the altruistic morality. Bad working condition only servers as fuel to men with those two philosophical views because to them, Communism is the only way out. For men in a free capitalistic society, bad working conditions means an opportunity, as whoever can come up with an innovation that improves those conditions at less cost will make great profit.

Capitalism certainly do not cause bad working conditions, and bad working conditions are not the ultimate cause of Communism.



>As for your complaint about free services funded by taxes-
"And they shouldn't exist, as inferior public entities that everyone has to support financially whether they use them or not when the superior private entities of LFC that are only supported financially by their clients can exist."
How exactly can poor clients pay for them? How else can a poor inner city district get trash service or safe housing or even clean water ?

Come on, this is basic microeconomics ffs. Products for the lower income is a market in and of itself. In a free society businesses will be competing to provide better service at less cost though innovation to the poor just as they will be competing to provide for the middle, and the rich. Profits, profits, profits.


>The simple fact of the matter is that you apparently view those less fortunate than you as some kind of lower life form.

Really now, quote me.


>Why would anyone try to make a business providing free or low cost services to anyone? It isn't a viable business plan.

Christ, shows how much you know about business. Free? of course not. Low cost? definitely. If you developed any new innovation or technology that allows to produce certain product or service at lower cost than your competitor, of course you will want to lower your price. You undercut theirs and sell more, which translates to bigger profit, BUS101 ffs.


>Who cares if the poor can't afford healthcare or education beyond grammar school or safe food. It doesn't concern you, you have enough money to afford to live with dignity.

Who cares in a free society? Anyone that wants to make money. If someone comes up with innovative ways that allows them to offer health-care and education at more affordable price than before, they will make big bucks. Same shit as above. As for people stop caring because they have enough money, aren't you the naive one, there's always people that wants to make more. Human ambition and intellect knows no bound.


>You don't want to contribute to society as a whole, just your little portion of it. Because that's what modern taxation is. It's how the government takes a small portion of EVERYONE'S income and uses it to keep running the entire society that you are a citizen of. Yes the rich pay a larger percentage, and those who can pay least will get the most benefit.

Contribute to the society? What is this "society"? and your "contribution" is a value to who? Society is just a word denoting people other than yourself, majority of who are strangers. Whether one is rich or poor, why should an individual be FORCED to "contribute" to people he know nothing about? If you are talking about public entities such as road, hospitals, schools..etc. everyone pay for what they use, but why should someone be FORCED to pay for another's bill? Society will run as long as stealing and robbing is banned, or in another word, the initiation of physical force. But when someone INITIATE force, especially the government, that's the very thing which will stop a society from running.

>But the fact is that that is the price you pay to live in a society where the poor can improve themselves.

Ha! Price to pay to live in a society? The only price one has to pay in a society is for the things he buys. So by what right do you decree that an individual HAS TO provide for other individuals? Has to pay for something he never brought? never choose? By what right do you justify in forcing men to give up the fruit of their labor without their voluntary consent? By what right do you justify robbery?


>A society where you don't have to scrutinize every measure of food or medicine for contaminants, dilution, efficacy or short weights. A society where threats to your livelihood, be it through bad business choices, economic shifts or competition will not mean starving in the street.

If you permit the government the initiation of force, the sanction of stealing, forcing men to give up their fruit of labor without their consent, the kind of society you will get will be exactly the opposite of what you are describing above. History stands evident and the deterioration of US today is the living proof of that.


>Last but not least it's the price you pay to live in a society without rank upon rank of millions of malnourished uneducated peasantry with nothing to lose planning a bloody revolution against those who exploit them for their own profit. Which, of course, is how most modern societies came about.

So your last argument is that I should basically pay tribute as a slave to a mass of barbarians who will otherwise besiege the country and loot everything in their path because they believe they are entitled to everyone's property? You know what I say to that? I say FUCK YOU. And if such a mass ever assembles, I say FUCK THEM, BRING IT ON.

>Which, of course, is how most modern societies came about.

Seriously? Just stfu.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-20 15:13

>>35
A woman with classist and misogynistic ideas.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-20 15:18

haven't read a single post itt longer than one sentence

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-21 2:26

>>38

and we care because...?

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-21 15:37

>>39
because you are an idiot

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-21 16:47

Ohhh, someone is pissed that his attempt at subtle attention whoring back fired haha.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-21 19:12

>>41
what in the world are you talking about

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-21 23:22

Tax people making over $100,000 a year very heavily. That's more than plenty to live comfortably on. Anyone who makes more than that is hogging resources that could benefit many more people. If you don't like being taxed so much, don't work as much. That's fair for everyone. Of course the rich people are rich for a reason, and they can fool some people into voting Republican by making unimportant side issues into dealbreaker vote swings. Vote Me for president

This message is approved by Me for president

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 1:30

>>43

You are a fucking moron.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 1:34

gahaha if u tax rich ppl they will move to other country where tax is lower and all rich will be gone and economy will be destroy

xD

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 2:05

>>43

10/10

would troll again

if there aren't people that actually think like this

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 6:36

I enjoyed it, I actually have two copies one that is bent the fuck up from reading all the way through and one I got for free for writing in the fountainhead essay contest. I exchange gifts through the mail on christmas with a friend that moved away. I plan to send the new one to said friend with "Earn your own damn present you moocher" written inside (moochers and looters are two terms you'll see a lot). A joke gift of sorts. Its a good book with an interesting story with lots of pointless sex but its just about Utopian capitalism which is just as bad as Utopian Socialism.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 8:28

>>47

5/10 for subtlety

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 14:02

>>48
Would you please shut the fuck up?

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 17:17

>>49

No.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 17:58

>>49

Guess trolls on /books/ get butthurt a lot easier than compared to any other board.


On the topic here, Capitalism doesn't automatically translate to a wealthy society. What a free market does is that it allows those individuals who do want to pursue wealth the legitimate way to do so unobstructed. If they succeed they will enjoy the full benefit of their success. And if they fail, they, and anyone else who choose to join their enterprise, will be the only ones who take the fall.

No regulations, no bailouts, 100% personal responsibility.

Capitalism doesn't automatically create an utopia, no political system will ever do. But it is the only econ-political system that will allow the creation of an utopia.

All other political system will act to pull the society downwards. Capitalism doesn't pull it anywhere.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 18:19

>>51
>will allow the creation of an utopia.
hyooman nature disagrees !!

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 19:21

Human nature precludes the possibility of a Utopian society. Political philosophy destroyed

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-22 23:25

>>53

That would be true only IF humans are self-destructive by nature.

The truth is humans are not self-destructive by nature. Free will and selfishness is the central factor here. Everything a person does is a choice, and every choice he makes will affect himself. People can choose to make the right choice, or the wrong choice. Those that choose the former rises (productive), and those that choose the latter(self-destructive), falls.

That is the reality of man and his relation to the world.

Capitalism is the only econ-political system which recognize that relationship and sets justice as its standard. If you succeed, the fruit of your success belongs to you in full and no one can force you to give it up through law. If you fail, you carry the your burden of failure in full and the law prevents you from forcing others to share it.

So, if your definition of an utopia is a society where every man is GUARANTEED to succeed and/or be wealthy, then yes, human nature precludes that possibility.

My definition of an utopia, the utopia only a free capitalistic society allows, is one where those that choose to make the right choice and succeeds won't be dragged down with force by those that choose to make the wrong choice and fails.

That utopia is very much possible, and the only utopia possible to humans.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 1:11

>>54
I don't believe you.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 1:29

>>54
So basically, we just leave poors to starve, and the world is perfect. OK.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 2:19

>>56

To repeat what has been posted somewhere in the beginning of this thread:

In a free society, if YOU want to help someone by giving them aid, no one has the right to stop you.

Vice versa, in a free society, no one has to right to FORCE others to help them. Anyone needs help have to right to ask for voluntary aid.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 2:29

>>56

And the disgusting thing isn't what I said as what you want to make it out to be, but what your post is implying. You are basically saying just because someone have less wealth compared to the static majorities in a society, he or she has lost their ability to survive as human but becomes some lesser life form that must have the right to force others to give them life support as the only means to live.

That is what I find truly degrading.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 4:51

>>56

You underestimate the human spirit. Also, as 57 said, altruism would not be dead. A great number of people work for or found charities receiving no compensation for their time. Forced altruism, however, should be done away with. I don't need to be told what to do.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 6:17

>>59

57 here.

Just to clear something up here.

It's true altruism would not automatically die in a free society, but altruism isn't exactly a good thing. Giving aid/charity doesn't automatically mean someone is altruistic.

You would give aid when you can to a promising student struggling financially through college or a family whose town was hit with natural disaster. But you wouldn't give aid to a hobo lying by a street who will use the cash to buy more alcohols.

The reason is because as a human being, your chief concern is self-interest, and it gives you pleasure to help those that you believe deserves your aid, while you will loathe yourself if you give a penny to said hobo. To be altruistic, it would mean you will pass no judgement on who you help, as long as it's someone other than yourself. The student, family, and, the hobo, would all be the same.

Name: Anonymous 2009-11-23 9:27


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