ATLAS SHRUGGED By Ayn Rand

>>[driving ithrough the countryside]
>>"It's a good road," said Rearden, "It was built to last. The
>>man who built it [was really good i swear]."
>>"Yes..."
>>"I don't like the looks of this."
>>"I don't either." Then she smiled. "But think of how often
>>we've heard people complain that billboards ruin the
>>appearance of the countryside. Well, there's the unruined
>>countryside for them to admire." She added, "They're the >>people I hate."

I've just finished Atlas Shrugged, and I am left somewhat conflicted. Part of me understands how this could have been voted the best book of the 20th century. Part of me understands how she, a person whom had experienced the Bolshevik's rise to power and was greatly affected by the negatives of communism, could have honestly and fully believed what she was writing. But for the most part, I can't help but to regard this book as a thick pile of shit. Opinions?

Um, yeah. It's basically, as you said, a thick pile of shit. It's also one of those things that you get tired of arguing about, and we agree anyway, so I'll leave it at that. I doubt many people coming to /book/ will disagree, actually. Maybe the younger ones.

God, I hate Rand...

I think I got tired of arguing against her in my head while reading the book

Ayn Rand is for kids. Unlike what /books/ usually reads, like Harry Potter and Ender's Game, which is very complex psychological literature.

Ayn Rand sucks. Objectivism is self-centered bullshit. Go read a real book.

I tried to read Atlas Shrugged once.  About 150 pages in, I kept screaming in my head "OK I GET THE FUCKING POINT, I NO LONGER CARE."  Too uninteresting to get through, personally.

I liked Anthem, though.

>>5 Fail, OP doesn't like her either.

>>6 How's Anthem? Not more Rand trying to shove her "philosophy" down the reader's throat, I'm hoping.

>>7
Anthem tells you all you really need to know about her ideas, and it's a fraction of the length of her other novels. I think she's a crappy writer as well as a terrible "philosopher", but it's short enough to be bearable. And face it, you have to read _something_ by Rand, if only so you can join the legions of people who hate her.

>>8
Good, I can bare preaching in small doses, even those as offensive to the human race as Rand's. I'll look into it.

As for Atlas Shrugged... The prophecies set forth in Futurama will be fulfilled. May the sewer mutants fill their library shelves.

It’s a good book but her philosophy has flaws and should be taken lightly (If at all).

Im not sure why people hate her so much. I mean unless you’re a philosophy nerd most people have no ability to understand where her arguments truly break down (protip: stop quoting your professor that just recites Hume’s law all day, that’s not the true flaw of objectivity) yet they hate it anyway. I think it’s similar to retards reading the bible and sucking its cock while not understanding any theological reasoning. Or first year college students preaching Marx’s and Engel’s while have no understanding of economics.

I really hate to quote her but it actually fits in this situation quite well. If you truly "HATE" Ayn rand you should really ask by what standard. Im not sure if it’s ever appropriate to truly "hate" a person that encourages the masses to dig a little deeper into there intellectual faculties, and its much less appropriate to defend the bases of subjectivity/utilitarianism/moral relativism in the same fashion.

>>10 To whom were you refering with your pro tip?

In any case, I disagree with your statement on philosophy nerds vs most people. If anything, that's why so many people hate her: they disagree with what she's writing from the very bottom of their being, but they don't have the means--or more likely, simply don't care enough--to understand exactly why she's wrong. Therefore their natural response to such matters pick up, and they respond with hate. I have to admit, I did hate Rand (or more specifically, her philosophy) for a while, but as I thought about it more and began to understand exactly where she was wrong, it became easier to accept.

Off topic, I had a friend that preached Marx once, except he did so in his sophomore year of highschool. Now he does legal drugs. Still a pretty smart guy, I think.

>>10

It's probably because of Randroid ethics.

>>10
I wouldn't hate Rand if she'd stuck with writing either fiction or philosophy. Preferably philosophy, because I don't think she was all that great at writing fiction. Although apparently you understand what's wrong with her philosophy, so you can see why that might not have worked. Anyway, it's the fact that she mixed the two and ended up writing such unbearable books that makes me dislike her. It's also a case of "hating the fans", as with a lot of things like this. They tend to be similar to what we on the internet would call "fanboys". Or just pretentious pseudointellectuals, as much as I hate to throw around those two overused words.

You can have a relevant link:
http://4-ch.net/book/kareha.pl/1140644553/

That covers most of the reasons people don't like her, as I really can't be bothered to go any deeper into it myself.

Oh, and I decided I was a Marxist when I was at school, and the people I really disliked were the ones who agreed but didn't know what the hell they were talking about. "Yeah, Communism is cool. Stick it to the man!" I mean, that (the whole teenage rebellion thing) was why I got into it, but at least I bothered to do my reading and get a decent understanding of it. I grew out of it by the time I was 16, and I've actually become an inredibly self centred bastard. Go figure.

tl;dr I HATE HER BECAUSE IT MAKES ME FEEL BIG AND SMART ON THE INTERNET, LAWL.

Hmm... Striving for success, happiness, equality, self-sufficiency, freedom, independent thought ... I can certainly see how 4channers, and liberals (i.e. marxists) in general, would dislike her ideas.

>>14 Haha, nice troll. You actually did a pretty good job of emulating the "pretentious pseudointellectuals" stated in >>13, and sew it all together with your Marxist statement. Still not very funny, sorry.

>>11
"To whom were you referring with your pro tip?"

About 90% of all introductory philosophy students that sight Rands inability to overcome Humes law as her flaw. The real problems with objectivism lie in how objectivist ethics exist in time.

"In any case, I disagree with your statement on philosophy nerds vs. most people. If anything, that's why so many people hate her: they disagree with what she's writing from the very bottom of their being, but they don't have the means--or more likely, simply don't care enough--to understand exactly why she's wrong."

At least in most western traditions, this type of disagreement from the bottom of ones soul holds no merit in argument. It’s in my opinion that if you don’t care to understand an issue at more then face value, and not put any thought or effort into its understanding that you should have no logical reason to have such a strong opinion on said issue. When reading Ayn I encourage people that face strong conflictions and new ideas to dig further and investigate, not put the book down reject outright on the basis of hate.

>>13

“Oh, and I decided I was a Marxist when I was at school, and the people I really disliked were the ones who agreed but didn't know what the hell they were talking about. "Yeah, Communism is cool. Stick it to the man!" I mean, that (the whole teenage rebellion thing) was why I got into it, but at least I bothered to do my reading and get a decent understanding of it. I grew out of it by the time I was 16, and I've actually become an inredibly self centred bastard. Go figure.”

Haha ya those are the types I was referring to, the same applies for any such books, like the bible and AS. And can exist on both sides of the argument, MOST/MANY atheists (I hope im not included) make assumptions that are just as stupid as the ones made in the bible belt. Any decent and intelligent theologian would tear up most atheists without effort

>>14
“Hmm... Striving for success, happiness, equality, self-sufficiency, freedom, independent thought ... I can certainly see how 4channers, and liberals (i.e. marxists) in general, would dislike her ideas.”

All people strive for such outcomes; it’s how we reach them that’s the issue. Do you think it was Marx’s intention to kill millions (if not billions) of people? Do you really think he had long term goals that where different then Ayns? All of us strive for happiness, equality freedom and the like, how we get them is the subject of philosophical inquiry, and Ayns arguments fail.

>>16
As much as I dislike Marx's ideas, I have to point out that Marx never killed anyone, you confused asshat.

>>16 On the first part, I am not a philosophy student, being a first-year premed student (soon switching majors, premed is... not for me), and I don't even know what Hund's law is. Furthermore, I'm not so concerned with what specific mechanisms (re: to anyone who doesn't have a taste for philosphy, "bullshit") made Rand wrong in her philosophy, I'm more concerned why she was wrong. Note there is a difference. If I couldn't figure out why she was wrong, maybe I'd dabble in those philosophical mechanisms. Who knows.

The second part: I'm pretty sure they don't care about any argumental merit. I don't either particularly, but if I'm going to dislike something, I always need to fully understand why--if I find no logical reason, then I have to examine my reason for questioning the subject in the first place. This is just what I call thinking. It has nothing to do with philosophy, really.

On a different note, the great Anonymous once stated it best on another board: Person 1: "...if Ayn Rand were a troll."
Person 2: "Ayn Rand was a troll. She was so good, people are still taking her seriously."

>>17
Please note im only using Marx because many people consider him to be the polar opposite of Ayn, im not trying to fuel a communism debate.

Marx personally killed millions? No of course not, I guess I should have said

All people strive for such outcomes; it’s how we reach them that’s the issue. Do you think it was Marxism's intention to kill millions (if not billions) of people? Do you really think Marxist’s have long term goals that are different then Ayns? All of us strive for happiness, equality freedom and the like, how we get them is the subject of philosophical inquiry, and Ayns arguments fail.

The main gist im trying to get across is that all ism's have roughly the same goal, but it’s how we achieve it that truly matters and is subject to strict investigation

>>18

"The second part: I'm pretty sure they don't care about any argumental merit."

If a person gives you any piece of information about how they think or believe, it’s always formed under the guise of argument. The person that doesn’t want to argue is a person that says nothing of value.

"This is just what I call thinking. It has nothing to do with philosophy, really."

Your way of thinking is called analytic philosophy, and it’s very popular. Thinking is philosophy

You can call thinking philosophy if you want. I just say thinking.

I see what you're saying, but this is what makes sense to me: if argumentive merit=0, it is no longer an argument. This doesn't destroy the value of their statement, it merely sits and is.

Also, refering to your reply to >>17, saying "Marx killed millions, but not personally" isn't exactly the same as stating the same of Hitler. The fact that Marx came up with communism and that the Soviets used vaguely similar concepts under the same name is simply an unfortunate occurance. Also, Leninism, Stalinism, Nazism--not particularly peace and equality-loving isms, however much some of them pretended as such. Rather, I think it would be more accurate to say any ism strives only for the satisfaction of one's self, from the perspective of "one". This is what allowed Ayn to write all of her books with a straight face, no?

Rand did for bullshit what stonehenge did for rocks. even so, has anyone read Max Stirner's The ego and his Own? It advocates the idea of egoism without her damnable defense of capitalism. Interesting read, and you can see Stirner's influence on Nietzsche; another philosohper Rand attempted to cull from.

>>17
He caused the deaths indirectly.  Without his ideas, many lives could continue their path without abject poverty and the crushing deaths of loved ones.

She wrote self insertion fantasy littered with rape fantasy's and multiple boyfriends whom were all geniuses, good looking and multi-millionares. Yeah, let that sink in.
I don't understand why people even talk about her. She basically just took communism and capitalism and rewrote them a person to person level. Like Terry Goodkind.
And to whomever was spewing the bullshit about if you don't understand the idea you have no merit to your hate etc. Just because someone isn't at the same intellectual level as another does not mean their opinion counts for less or their arguments get over ruled. If we argued we would both end up claiming that the other just didn't understand our arguments at the base level, making any debate pointless.

Oh and btw Marx felt his ideas were being misused and misunderstood and cut of communication with most of the groups that did commit the murders. (Not for marx or against, just saying)

What exactly is "wrong" with her philosophy, and the vehicle she presents it in?

I've never read her books, and have only recently gotten the jist of Objectivism.

>>22

You just made Karl Benz blush with shame.

Too late to form a cohesive arguement about Rand.

Long story short, see everyone else's criticisms.

P.S: Rand loved money and elitism more then Elton John loves penis.

Except her philosophy has no flaws...

>>27
troll is trolling.

Objectivism is often considered a joke by modern philosophers.

Artistotle: A=A ---My coffe cup is what it is
Rand: A always =A ---my coffe cup is what it is forever

I smash my coffe cup

objectivism destroyed

i  hate  it

this board is called /book/ not /overly intellectual bullshit/

inb4 Telemachus Sneezed

You all don't seem to get that the point is to not toil under a system where my productive effort is under the command of anyone but myself. Not until recently has man been free to exist not for the sake of a god or all powerful nation/society that is everybody except every individual person. Our founding fathers intended a system vastly different from the bureaucratic mockery in place now. Most people in the freer countries main goal is to entertain themselves and think as little as possible. Our reading level is a joke and the hottest movies and books are moronic at best. You guys have fun spending your lives mindlessly while others use your effort for their gain.

>>34
shut the hell up batman

>Ayn Rand
Delusional bitch who did not believe that the senses could be decieved in any way.

Her female character is okay with being raped because the man was straightforward and unapologetic about it.

That's the only sentence I need, personally.

She thought a psychopath murderer who dismembered a 12 year old child had a "beautiful mind". She based many of her characters on this psychopath. (Ibid)

Hume's Law: is essentially this: "What is" and that which you consider as "what ought to be" are 2 different things, don't get them mixed up.

tl;dr version: saying it doesn't make it true.

>>2

Why is it assumed that readers of Ayn Rand are younger?

When we are young, we commonly cling to Marxist ideals. The young generation are the ones who let climate change and socialist ideals sway their votes.

Rand is the complete opposite. Once you grow older and realise that Marxism and altruism in general is just contrary to man's nature and a load of naive, hopeful bullshit, you see there is a lot of sense in individual happiness.

Regardless of what you in your youth optimistically think, man is selfish and property is pretty much the reason for our escape from the state of nature. Without an institution such as the government to protect and share currency and property, we'd be stealing and murdering each other for it. It's in our nature. Marxism just isn't. And why force something that doesn't fit.

state of nature
Oh, lord.

>>40
>altruism in general is just contrary to man's nature
You don't give us a lot of credit. Change takes time, of course, but to come out and say that people cannot change their base behavior is nihilistic. You certainly aren't making it any easier.

autism in general is just contrary to man's nature

>>42

But man is individualistic and a man's views differs from person to person. You will never get every person to change. It's unrealistic. We think for ourselves and we ultimately work for ourselves.

A boring 1000 page tome whose philosophical content can be summed up in a couple of pages. This is usually the most "intellectual" book an American college kid will read, which is kind of sad.

>>21
Rand did for bullshit what stonehenge did for rocks

Oh lord, I'm going to have to use that one in the future.

>>44

People are individualistic to an extent, insofar as they are interested in self preservation by nature. However, the most successful way for a human to survive is to be part of a functioning community. It is necessary for humans to cooperate with each other in order to survive and thrive. Individualism doesn't count for shit if it means that you're out in the woods alone gnawing on twigs for nourishment. Humans evolved as social creatures and as such, pure individualism is a bad survival strategy.

Lone wolves don't last long in the wild.

It is assumed that readers of Ayn Rand are younger because they think they can conquer the world singlehandedly, whereas grown-ups realise that even Atlas can shrug all he wants without moving the Earth. We have to form communities. That's objectively true.

>>49
noko
( ´ _>`)

>>50
Hey it's hard to keep up with threads on a fast moving board like this

>>51
fast moving board
（　≖‿≖）

Mmmmmmmmmmmm, no




























































































































































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http://www.nightofthelivingdead.co.uk

>>52
Gotcha
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>>54
Not sure what this garbled mess is suppose to be, but okay.

>>55
ASCII trollface

>>56
trollface
?

The rules of the /lit/ imageboard must not apply here.

>>57
Coolface, as you might know him newfag

>>59
newfag
Back to /b/, please just for using that term.

>>60
naw

I can understand Rand's point on most things, but I think altruism can in fact help people.  To put it bluntly, we're social animals, and if our society doesn't survive, neither do we.  A man on his own on a desrted island isn't long for this world.

That doesn't mean the government should do it.  And most certainly the government shouldn't tear down the productive to prop up the unproductive.  I just see no reason why a family or church couldn't decide as free people that they [i]want[i] to help others.

>>62
this

Sandy-Vagina McRussky might have been on to something if she hadn't been such a heartless bitch.

>>64
i lol'd

>>1
Book was written by a witch.


Burn both.

Have any of you fucktwits actually read the book?

It's about what could happen if all the over achievers in the world just retreated from the rest of us and vowed to live only for themselves and their own fulfillment. Society crumbles without them.

It takes a lot more genius to invent the bow and arrow in the first place than it does to copy or even innovate on the original design.

Without mutant over achievers we'd all still be in the dirt squeezing bone marrow into our gobs.

OP, read the book again.

>>62
What I don't understand is how Ayn Rand finds the will to live. If you don't believe that human beings are meant to cooperate and share their problems and gains, if you don't believe that you were born to help others and make the world a better place for everyone, then why? What is the point of society, civilization, progress, evolution, invention, art? If we're not supposed to share our successes then we're no different from animals. I'm not saying it's reproachable to be animals, but if we are why have we been pretending to be more than that for more than 100.000 years. More importantly, if we are animals, don't you realize people like Ayn Rand should be the first to perish? People who spend their time idly observing the world, generating philosophies, opinions or art, what good is that to a chaotic dog eat dog world? If it's everyone for themselves, why are you wasting your fucking time writing a fucking book? Who are you helping? Why?

>>71
liberal detected
take your communism somewhere else

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>>71

i don't care for Rand myself, but you should at least have the decency to read the wikipedia entry on objectivism because right now you are attacking some projected straw-man based on what you think Rand means rather than anything resembling what her pitiful attempt at philosophy is, whilst trying to position it as some deep insight.

for your sake i hope you're 16.

I fully acknowledge that whatever part of Objectivism that I DID like while I was reading Atlas Shrugged was simply pilfered from Nietzsche and a couple of other philosophers. On the other hand, I found the scope and suspense of her plot to be rather commendable, and I fucking loved the prose. So much of the imagery and detail that she describes in AS resonates with my own way of imagining and viewing things.

Q: Is there anything worse than an old Jewish bitch named Ayn Rand?

A: Nope.

Ayn Rand takes a lot of things for granted that 16 to 20 year-olds often haven't thought to question.

Philosophically:

1) The possibility of progress.

2) The existence of the self.

3) That words correlate cleanly to what they are meant to signify.

Socially:

1) That personal success and societal well-being are positively correlated.

2) That positively-defined liberty is a useful concept.

3) That earning power and social dominance are separate ideas.


She fails to question these and other very fundamental concepts, many of which form the basis of very large and many-faceted schools of thought.  Instead, she paints the world in very basic colors, addressing the conflict between the individual and society in only the most superficial of ways.

It doesn't help that she writes in a schmaltzy Romanticist style.

You have yet to consider the tyranny of freedom or how language informs the way we think.

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Effectively, her social and moral philosophy states that rich people aren't given enough privilege and control. That is so much bullshit right there.

>>44
but we accomplish nothing as mere individuals. Its your civilization that clothes you, feeds you, educates you, and gives you electricity. You benefit from other peoples work only because you do your part and because our civilization recognizes the financial and moral value of a human life. Humanity is a team sport, even if some players have better contracts.

>>40
I listened to a witness to the massacers in rhawanda in an interview recently and he said that all people are capable of the worst of things, but we are also capable of the best of things.

Rand is the complete opposite. Once you grow older and realize that /book/ and autism in general is just contrary to man's nature and a load of naive, hopeful bullshit, you see there is a lot of sense in individual happiness.

>>85
Keep it in /lounge/, please.

Bunch of overrated selfish Jewish bullshit that angsty hipsters who think they're being "cool" by embracing "libertarianism" jack off to.