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Souls and God

Name: VIPPER 2008-05-20 12:42

Now I haven't read much about logic or stuff so if someone could formulate my problem with a better language I'd be thrilled.
Let's say God is omniscient.
Because of his omniscience he will only act in one way, seeing how he's because of mentioned omniscience seeing himself act in the future, now and the past.
Now let's take a soul.
God is the creator of all souls, since he is the creator of everything. Which means that he makes a conscious decision when creating a particular soul. Because of his omniscience he will see this souls future before he's even created it, he will see whether or not this soul will sin or not.
Now here comes my point:
If God is truly omniscient, then why does he knowingly create souls that inevitably will sin and revolt against God, thus being condemned to hell?
The way one can explain this is if God's either not:
Omniscient

or

All benevolent

What do you guys think?
Did I think it through this time?

Name: VIPPER 2008-05-20 16:42

wow! you disproved the existence of a abrahemic God
who fucking care

Name: VIPPER 2008-05-21 11:45

this sounds kinda interesting.

Name: VIPPER 2008-05-21 18:42

No god.

Name: VIPPER 2008-05-22 3:40

MY LIFE SUCKS THEREFORE NO GOD

Name: VIPPER 2008-05-23 7:56

ooh I think I just crapped my pants

this must mean that god loves us and wants us to be happy.

Name: VIPPER 2008-05-23 8:29

>>1
Or, he's NONEXISTANT.  You decide.

Name: VIPPER 2008-05-23 15:20


If someone know logic argumentation and such and could clarify or simplify what I wrote I'd be glad but until then I 'll just have to give it another shoot:

The Christian God(or Islamic, Jewish or w/e) is said to posses omnipotence and omniscience in addition to all-benevolence and a will/desire to do good.
God himself has already defined what is Good and what is Evil through the ten commandments and later on through the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Now since God is omniscient he will only act in one possible way, since he will also see himself act in the past, present and the future of our time. That's just part of his nature, every decision he's taken or is gonna take is already taken at any given moment in our own world since he is also said to exist outside of our own time.

Let' take a look at the nature of souls now:

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

Ergo, according to Christianity God creates the human soul.

Most Christians also believe that when people die their souls will be judged by God, who sees all the wrong and right that they have done during their lives. If they have repented of their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, they will inherit eternal life in Heaven and enjoy eternal fellowship with God. Christians believe that if one has not repented of his sins and not accepted Jesus Christ, he will go to Hell, and suffer eternally as they are separated of God. This is the teaching of most evangelical, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, which constitute the majority of Christianity, though there are some that believe the soul will be destroyed in hell, instead of suffering eternally, but that doesn't have any bearing on my arguments, au contraire really.

Now then comes the meat of my post:

A. God create all souls
B. God sees all souls that will suffer damnation before he even created them.
C. Therefore God is consciously creating souls that are determined to sin and consequently be punished in hell.

How can such a God be all-benevolent if he creates souls that have nothing but hell in their own future?

Either he's not all-benevolent, making it perfectly fine for him to create and punish millions of souls.
Or he's not omniscient, making it impossible for him see a souls future with 100% certainty.

I'm sure there's a couple of questions that you will ask so I'll just save you the trouble and answer them directly:

What about free will?
It's irrelevant since a God that is omniscient will see your future with 100% certainty, meaning that no matter what choices you make while you live you can't change the future that God has already seen.

God decides what is Good and Wrong, therefore it's perfectly fine for him to create souls that will only remind the rest of us that heaven is something we have to work for.

No, since God has already said what is Good and Wring through the Bible and Jesus. Bu this is rather meta and hypothetical, much like my arguments lol.

Name: VIPPER 2008-05-23 15:20


If someone know logic argumentation and such and could clarify or simplify what I wrote I'd be glad but until then I 'll just have to give it another shoot:

The Christian God(or Islamic, Jewish or w/e) is said to posses omnipotence and omniscience in addition to all-benevolence and a will/desire to do good.
God himself has already defined what is Good and what is Evil through the ten commandments and later on through the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Now since God is omniscient he will only act in one possible way, since he will also see himself act in the past, present and the future of our time. That's just part of his nature, every decision he's taken or is gonna take is already taken at any given moment in our own world since he is also said to exist outside of our own time.

Let' take a look at the nature of souls now:

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

Ergo, according to Christianity God creates the human soul.

Most Christians also believe that when people die their souls will be judged by God, who sees all the wrong and right that they have done during their lives. If they have repented of their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, they will inherit eternal life in Heaven and enjoy eternal fellowship with God. Christians believe that if one has not repented of his sins and not accepted Jesus Christ, he will go to Hell, and suffer eternally as they are separated of God. This is the teaching of most evangelical, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, which constitute the majority of Christianity, though there are some that believe the soul will be destroyed in hell, instead of suffering eternally, but that doesn't have any bearing on my arguments, au contraire really.

Now then comes the meat of my post:

A. God create all souls
B. God sees all souls that will suffer damnation before he even created them.
C. Therefore God is consciously creating souls that are determined to sin and consequently be punished in hell.

How can such a God be all-benevolent if he creates souls that have nothing but hell in their own future?

Either he's not all-benevolent, making it perfectly fine for him to create and punish millions of souls.
Or he's not omniscient, making it impossible for him see a souls future with 100% certainty.

I'm sure there's a couple of questions that you will ask so I'll just save you the trouble and answer them directly:

What about free will?
It's irrelevant since a God that is omniscient will see your future with 100% certainty, meaning that no matter what choices you make while you live you can't change the future that God has already seen.

God decides what is Good and Wrong, therefore it's perfectly fine for him to create souls that will only remind the rest of us that heaven is something we have to work for.

No, since God has already said what is Good and Wring through the Bible and Jesus. Bu this is rather meta and hypothetical, much like my arguments lol.

Name: VIPPER 2008-05-26 12:21

why theirs tuu threds?

Name: VIPPER 2008-05-26 23:34

>>9
Look at it this way.

On most browsers, you can bring up your browsing history by pressing Control-H. (No, this is not going to become a discussion of werecows.) On Firefox, this brings up a sidebar that shows up on the left side of the window. If you put your mouse over the edge of the sidebar, the cursor will turn into a different kind of arrow. By clicking and dragging it, you can move the edge of the sidebar back and forth. You are, to put it another way, manipulating the border between the normal window and the history window. By moving the mouse, you can increase the portion of the window devoted to either part. In a more extreme view of this situation, you're increasing or decreasing the amount of existence the sidebar has.

Now, let's apply this idea to something more abstract. Look out your window. If you don't live in a highly urbanized area, you should be able to see the horizon. Think of this as the border between the land and the sky. The land and sky are obviously distinguishable thanks to this boundary. Now, if you were to "drag" the sash between the sky and the land, or to manipulate the border between land and sky, you would end up causing the sky to become larger and the land to become smaller, or vice versa. An effect of this might be to cause something that was just on the ground to suddenly be hundreds of feet in the air. Truly a frightening situation to be in. So, look at it this way - manipulating the border between two physical things shifts whatever balance there is in the interaction between those things. Alternatively, by manipulating the border between two things, you can change the manner in which they exist.

Still, this isn't *that* abstract, since it's still dealing with real things in the real world. Many believe that in this world, there are those things that are true, and those that obviously aren't. This divides reality into two extremes: truth and falsehood. But, since we have two extremes, logically one can imagine a boundary between those two extremes - the border between truth and lies. If one were to manipulate this border, suddenly things that were pure fantasy (flying pigs, for the sake of argument) have become reality - or things from reality have ceased to exist. This is how Yukari is said to have invaded the moon - by manipulating the border between truth and lies, as applied to the reflection of the moon on a pond, she was able to make the reflection of the moon into a manifestation of the actual moon, and so send her youkai army onto it. This is what's truly amazing about Yukari's power - the ability to manipulate the border between completely abstract concepts allows her to fundamentally change reality as we know it (at least in terms of two abstract concepts).

Don't change these.
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