Is there a way to objectively measure

pain? Like, if you hit your finger with a hammer you suffer 5.7 units of pain?

brain scan?

No there is not.

If you had ever stayed in a hospital you would know the answer to be no. Nurses regularly ask patients what their pain level is to determine which, if any painkillers they can have. Typically this is on a scale of one to ten and I quote "one being no pain at all and ten being the worst pain imaginable." I consistently found the majority of patients saying eight, nine of even ten- when they were simply laying in their bed reading a magazine. Then when the blood lady came along to take bloods and puts a tiny needle in their arm, they cry out and scrunch up their face. Whether this is an orchestrated ploy to get more morphine or they actually think the pain they are experiencing is next to the worst imaginable I don't know, but certainly pain varies from person to person and there is no way to reliably extract that information (as of yet).

no objective system that that i can recall.
but why not? it is certainly possible.
pain is an entirely physical, material thing.
perhaps, the strength of the signal sent by neurons, measured in the form of electrical impulse relative to the normal, or perhaps release of stress chemicals/neurotransmitters, or something.
>>4
they're probably just being afraid and cautious.

>>5
it probably wouldn't be too accurate for certain things tho. like, iiff you get shot, such a relatively sudden impact and injury is such a shock to the nervous system that for a while you don't feel anything.

Stimulation of pain nerves might work

>>5
Certainly not possible as long as you don't have an exact definition for pain on the cellular level.
Neuron signal strength, you say? At which point would you measure it? The last neuron before entering the brain? Well, the brain can't be treated as a magic black box either. But once in the brain, do some signals represent pain and some not.. how exactly should they differ? You can also experience "emotional pain". Is it biologically equivalent to "body pain"?

Certainly, for the pain to be real, it must affect the subject's behavior in one way or another. I'd imagine an objective measure of pain being related to the strength of motivational influence of the signal.

Even you stimulate the same amount of pain transmitting neurons innervating the same body area in indentical twins, they would respond to it or sense it differently. The transmitting process of pain to the brain stem is not so different from person to person. But when it gets to the upper parts like limbic system, thalamus and such, the experince and the mood factors kick in. So the final sensation that the cortex perceives from the same level of irritation is bound to be different in every person.

Also, it wouldn't be so practical even though an objective measurement was present. Because, everyone knows, pain is just to warn you about something bad is happening to your body. But having studying pain as a physical therapy student for a couple of years, I can assure you it is the least stable indicator that actually defines what is going wrong. Take a papercut, it's just a small injury that will heal in a couple of days. But the fuck hurts like crazy until it heals. Then take a tumor that grows for years in you silently until it gets really serious. Not to mention pain-spasm cycle. Most of the time the pain gets the priority than the actual disease. So there's no need for a objective measurement for pain. It's just smash it with drugs until it dies or get rid of the actual disfunction/disease that causes it.

I know, long post is long.

Usually it's 'On a scale of one to ten, how much does this hurt'.

-Crunch-

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Also, teal deer @ post above

lul

>>8
>Neuron signal strength, you say? At which point would you measure it? The last neuron before entering the brain?
sure, why not

pain is subjective - so the only meaningful way is to ask the recipient and hope they tell the truth.  That;s why (decent, modern) hospitals ask patients to rate their pain before setting morphine doses.

>>12 sure, why not
Because the brain and other nerves are not separate entities. It's very possible that a neural path despite extending "into the brain" has ultimately no effect on the subject's behavior. (I.e. they don't feel anything)

I think I understand what he's talking about. He wants to understand the variance between comfort and extreme agony via a measurement scale.

If I had to describe this to you and how it works it would be like the following.

1) there is a steady flow of energy through our nervous system at any given point.
2) we are able to understand comfort via the limited variance.
3) we are able to understand pain via the changes in this variance.
4) this flow operates on repetition just like a radar; it sends out a signal in order to receive that pulse, whereupon receiving that pulse just like it is operating right now, when something impedes or changes the path of least resistance within that pulse the variances changes until the pulse becomes recognized as steady by the brain.
5) If the variance is outside of the known range say 10amp tolerance (+-5amps) we are able to perceive this change via knowing comfort as a baseline which is limited range of variance, and in the extreme places our awareness at an impass where a decision must be made; introversion (or loss of external awareness) or extroversion (heightened external awareness).
6) When the mind can no longer tolerate the variance of the pulse which itself operates, it begins to change its own thinking and operations; ie, the tolerance range of comfort is altered to allow for this extreme variance.
7) however, given time and experiences in comfort, this comfort tolerance range decreases and small pains can be experienced all over the body for no apparent infliction of bodily damage.

Depending upon whether we take the understanding of pain and pleasure or pain and comfort as literal or illusion is a choice we have to decide for ourselves; similar to deciding whether eating cherry ice-cream is good or bad. If it's good, use it, if it's bad, change it.

If we had to understand what pleasure is, I would say that it has nothing to do with pain (awareness of bodily changes) and comfort (absence of pain -or the ignorance of bodily changes-)

There are some things that are somewhat appearing as absolute such as how similar things work; but for the most part, they are relative to the individual, then to the location, then to time.
The individual has his/her own perceptions/beliefs/logic/intuition based upon personal relative experiences ergo they will have relative perceptions of exactly what "pain" is to them as opposed to what "pain" is to me. Next is location where environment plays the roll of what is being allowed to be perceived. Such as the perception of cold and heat perception depending upon the climate variance between source and destination. Here is the deciding factor; time. Given a limited amount of time to adjust from being in pain to a comfortable level of tolerance the ego will begin to exhibit its fear of this change happening again and this fear of the pain will resonate within the individual. Given ample time for this occurrence to to take place; the individual will perceive only minor discomfort and eventually the change will be satisfactory and accomplished.

Conclusion:
This is why we are slow in changing anything due to strain on changing people's ego-boundaries which are attached to pain thresholds and fear thresholds. If people are living in an ever-changing state of fear, they will be less likely to grow steadily; however, given too much time and comfort there is a chance of decadence setting in and becoming comfortable in stagnation.

The resolution is a balanced state where change is taken on by the individual by choice ergo changing one's own pain and fear thresholds and expanding one's own ego-boundaries to allow for new occurrences and personal growth to take place.

Why is it vague?
If it is to apply to everything and everyone, how else might it be stated if not vaguely?

Besides, this is only the starting point of an experiment, not the end. Only the end of my preaching...maybe if I had tools to measure the wavelengths of pain and fear I would be able to analyze my choices and ergo my consequences much more accurately rather than guessing at how I feel at any given point in time. But alas, without funding, there can be no growth. Time for me to get a better job I guess. :P

>>15
There might be an actual point in what you're saying, but I can't seem to find it among all the vague rhetoric.

This is supposed to be a board for science, not mysticism, so could you elaborate what you mean by the following terms:
1. variance (statistical dispersion?)
2. flow of energy
3. "pain will resonate"
4. wavelength of pain

poster of >12 here. so maybe my vague examples weren't so great, but i was just trying to get across the idea that humans, for all we know, are essentially entirely material, and thus with sensors of sufficient precision and computers of sufficient processing power we should be able to know exactly (or atleast probably) what anyone is thinking or feeling at any given time.
Pain, and how the body perceives the pain, are entirely physical sensations/processes. So of course they can be measured, and i do believe the technology to quickly produce sufficiently accurate tools exist today to collect and process that data from a human.
And I'm guessing collecting such data would be done primarily from neurons as they are the fundamental units of our nervous system which ultimately deal with all thought and sensation we have.
capiche?

>>17
Actually there is,
pain is defined by the International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP) via wikipedia.org
so, check it out!
Pain is uniform, but the perception of pain is relative to each individual's perception.

Step 1) Ask the test subject to scream as loud as he can and measure it in decibels.
Step 2) Whack the subject with various objects and record how loud he screams in each case.
Step 3) Divide the numbers from step 2 by the number from step 1.  Voila!  Instant pain-meter.

>>19
Introducing >>19 as our first test subject.

Decadence

1. unrestrained or excessive self-indulgence.

In Rabbi Noah Weinberg's "48 Ways to Wisdom" he explains that the Western point of view of pleasure and pain is the expression of decadence. He follows that the opposite of pain is not pleasure, but comfort (the absence of pain). That Western society views the ultimate pleasure as comfort is the very definition of decadence.

He finishes with the following, "the ultimate comfort in life is death."

Moving forward he enters the question, "...what in life do your parents find pleasure?" the answer returns from his listeners, "Their children." He follows up with a rebuttal of, "...and what in life do your parents find painful?"
The answer resounds throughout the room, "Their children!"

So that which is painful brings us the greatest pleasure.

For every action there is a price and a pleasure. Knowing both will provide you with wisdom to make better decisions for yourself.
-Socrates "Big Buddha"; Peaceful Warrior

He's behind all the pain there ever was. Behind every crime ever committed. And you, you think he's your best friend. And they will protect their best friend with everything they've got. Where's the best place an opponent should hide? In the very last place you would ever look. He's hiding behind your pain. He's all up here, in every one of our heads. This REAL world, this is HIS world, he owns it, he controls it. This is his game, everyone's in HIS game and nobody knows it. Embrace the pain, and you will win this game.
-Avi; Revolver

Ego-Self Will is subjective intent in motion through projection; namely guilt, fear, judgment, attachment, control, thought, emotion, having, and becoming. The ego-self Will was conceived through separation and is consumed by a core belief in guilt, fear, control, chaos, scarcity, and struggle. Its Will is subjective and compelled by its nature, which is to contract, separate, and project.
     The ego-self Will is intensely personal, conditional, judgmental, exclusive, restrictive and biased. It is mostly experienced through thought, time, and emotion. Because it must maintain total control of these in order to survive, it uses them to ensure we stay stuck in the dis-empowering cycle of seeking pleasure (comfort) while trying to avoid pain.
-Take me to Truth: Undoing the Ego by Nouk Sanchez & Tomas Vieira

You don't give because it's good. You give because it hurts him. -Avi; Revolver

Wherever you don't want to go is where you will find HIM.
If you can't; you're not free. -Avi; Revolver

He's got all the right answers...the greatest con he ever pulled was convincing you HE is YOU. -Avi; Revolver

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. -Kint; The Usual Suspects

There are no real enemies, only projections of the ego as the enemy. In religion, the ego manifests as the Devil. No one knows how smart the ego is because HE created the devil so you could blame something else.

The ego hates itself for not being good-enough; it is the source of it's own self-loathing. And it believes it doesn't even exist. And we think HE's our best friend...

Do you know the difference between Knowledge and Wisdom?
...?
Do you know how to read?
Yes.

Wisdom is doing it.

Using what you know to find out what you don't know.
-Socrates; Peaceful Warrior

Think it's just movies fellas?

When you're winning, who thinks about loosing? But when you're faced with what I'm face with, a new and cold reality dawns. When you play this game, you cannot win.

Winning is surrendering control of what is to come. Turning your past into advantages by keeping them as they are and determining a purpose for their lessons as a benefit for your future choices. The other way, self-deception, eradicates guilt, but induces confabulation. Do this enough times and you make it all a habit.

And that my friends is the human condition.
...getting consumed by our own consumption. We are given what we think we want until the day we die.

And you still think HE's your best friend?

And right now, HE's saying, "Don't let them turn you against you."

Is this a con?

Am I the one conning you?

He's got all the right answers, all the right moves. He knows this because HE's already inside the gates. HE has the highest intelligence of all.

Yours.

>>17
Yes, measuring whatever physical property is possible in principle, but the problem here isn't measurement but the definition of pain. It won't do to arbitrarily choose some property and call it pain if there's any discrepancy with what the subject experiences.

>>23
>if there's any discrepancy with what the subject experiences
thought itself is physical and can be measured with sciance

>>24
Perhaps the measurement of pain would be the product between sensory interaction via pain stimulus and brain activity before, during, and after the experiment?

Give me 1000 beautiful 16 year old girls, $500 million to buy equipment, and 20 years, and I'll be able to discover the way to measure pain.

>>26
How do you measure beauty?

>>27
With my penis.

>>26
no you'll just be fucking 16 year old girls until your prostate explodes and your organs give out.

>>29
And the problem is?

>>27
i see myself in the mirror and all the other people in the entire universe < me by 9000 points

Press CTRL+SHIFT+F to fill in form.

>>27
There are two ways to measure beauty, one is illusion, the other is truth.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

First way, is the perception of something unique, different, and illicits a sexual interest and curiosity to explore further and learn about something as of yet unknown. This is an objective way of doing something.

Second way, compare all the people, places, things that you've already encountered and weigh their appearance or behavior against them. This is a subjective imposition.

Both are doable. One is right, one is wrong. It is up to you to decide for yourself which is which by yourself.

Is knowledge greater than learning? Or is learning greater than knowledge? Or are the two so inseparable that the lines between them are consistently moving back and forth because we are continually moving back and forth? These are questions that maturate from the depths of true insight and intuition. What do I want? What will it take to get it? If I don't have it now, what do I have?

The answer to these questions are you yourself because the final answer to all questions ARE YOU YOURSELF; about yourself.

Realize now, that pain is a sensation. From all sensations flows energy, from all energy the body may utilize, from pain comes either introspection or extrospection. Is it more important to be aware that you can feel yourself, or is it equally important to feel yourself seeking and through the seeking your increase in perception allows you to perceive yourself more clearly than before? Is it possible, that all things being equal that all things are important and deserve all your attention?

It's your choice, to do this or not to do this...that is the final question; the answer is you yourself.

>>33
you are very skilled, i couldn't pack that much bullshit into a single post if my life depended on it

Haven't you guys ever been to the doctor?  The accepted objective measure of pain in the medical community is the smiley face / frowny face scale

you can measure it indirectly, via measuring amount of gain.

>>36
yes but what is the constant of proportionality? and is it a linear relationship? exponential?

You measure it in Hz

>>38
I GET IT!

>>38
Was this whole thread just a setup for this lame pun?

>>40
what do you mean by pun? Serious subject is serious. :|

There Is A Simple Scale For Measuring Pain.
relevant paper:
A simple pain scale for field comparison of Hymenopteran stingsckstarr.net [PDF]
CK Starr - Journal of Entomological Science, 1985 - ckstarr.net

but there is also the Schmidt Sting Pain Index - look it up on wikipedia.
the pain of giving birth is considered the most painful pain, iirc?

While it is difficult to measure pain directly, you can always approximate it indirectly since it has a strong correlation with gain.