Free Will would finish God, not Atheists. Think about it.
1) God is omnipotent
2) God allows us to have free will
3) Free Will would mean, by implication, that God's will is not unbreakable, and therefore God is not Omnipotent.
4) The fact that God would allow people to continue to believe that he is omnipotent when he really isn't means that he is guilty of lying.
5) Satan is the father of Lies
6) God is Satan
Q.E.D.
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Anonymous2009-03-20 15:51
1) God is omnipotent
2) God allows us to have free will
3) Free Will would mean, by implication, that God's will is breakable, and therefore God is not Omnipotent.
4) The fact that God would allow people to continue to believe that he is omnipotent when he really isn't means that he is guilty of lying.
5) Satan is the father of Lies
6) God is Satan
Q.E.D.
Fix'd
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Anonymous2009-03-20 18:46
>>1
Read the paper. "Free Will" here is not the "Free Will" you are thinking of. It was defined as "the opposite of Determinism", that is, that every event can be traced forwards and backwards in time. What the paper demonstrates is that particles cannot be predicted, but that that uncertainty is not mere randomness. Thus, neither the future nor the past can be predicted to absolute precision.
This concept has been popular in Quantum Mechanics for a century. It has nothing to do with Human Free Will, as explained in the paper, nor does it touch on Fate or anything like that.
>>2 >>3
Of course, the primary fallacy here is that you're assuming "God" exists in the first place. For any existence argument to be valid, you must first define your terms completely and then start the argument with an existential if statement, like so:
"God" is defined as a sapient, omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being who created the Universe, etc, etc, in accordance with the King James Version of the Christian Bible. If such a thing as can be described as "God" exists, then...
Then you have to demonstrate that something can and does exist that matches all the criteria.
This of course would take a ridiculous amount of time and would be vulnerable to literal thousands of logical contradictions and impossibilities, and so the entire argument would crumble before it even began.
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Anonymous2009-03-20 18:50
I wonder why I read the first step as "God is unimportant".
I don't believe in God. The point I was making was that if God, by reason, does not possess all of the characteristics that are ascribed to him, then god is guilty of lying (by not revealing the truth when he knows otherwise would make him a liar by accessory), and since none can be greater than god, then God must be the greatest liar, i.e. Satan.
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Anonymous2009-03-21 0:24
>>3
But if god supposedly gives us the free will in the first place, how can that be contradictory to his omnipotence? Omnipotence simply means that he has the power to achieve anything, and if it is his choice to give us free will, then how can our choices disagree with his? If his will is to allow us to do anything, then nothing we do can break his will.
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Anonymous2009-03-21 2:12
>>2
Actually, God's Will is so strong it is not retractable, but it is resistible...eventually, it will overwhelm us...oh, I see it already has. But because we specks of dust existing on a speck of dust within a giant vacuum bag have free-will, this just means we can make the choice on our own. BTW, free-will isn't something people have, it's something people earn by practicing it. Free-Will is like a human muscle, if you don't exercise it it will atrophy, and all that will be left is, "I can't do it, they won't let me," syndrome...oh that exists too...hmm. But I can't do anything about those people, they have their own choices as I only have mine. So I work with myself to better my own self, it has worked wonders and none can compete.
If you fear intelligence, become what you fear.
If you fear integrity, become what you fear.
If you fear life, become what you fear.
Truly, the only thing to fear is fear itself; become fear.
The choice to become fear or not is a choice I leave to you; just as I would have others leave that same choice to me.
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Anonymous2009-03-21 2:23
>>4
your statements are contradictory.
>>What the paper demonstrates is that particles cannot be predicted, but that that uncertainty is not mere randomness.
and
>>Thus, neither the future nor the past can be predicted to absolute precision.
Quantum mechanics is the displaying of the reactions of the universe, not the simplified methodology of how it happens differently with the same choice. When heat chooses its path of least resistance, to pursue colder air to warm, hence the reason it rises to the coldness of space. But what about cold air? What about the path of least resistance for cold air? Isn't it funny how this cycle flows similarly like the Yin-Yang of Chinese philosophy? A spiral, a perfect spiral, always moving to fulfill one-another's necessities.
The difference between us humans and the varying energies around us? We can make the choice before the necessity becomes a requirement; why don't we? The age-old mis-saying, "Don't fix what ain't broke." So we wait till something is broken until we fix it. Why not make the choice beforehand? I mean, we can say that we need food, amirite? What do you think, /sci/?
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Anonymous2009-03-21 2:54
>>3
You are a funny fucker, lol. Don't you realize that the purpose of God is that of an imaginary roll-model? Something to look up to? So all you see is that those to look up to are liars, therefore you have a lying roll-model, you will most likely become a liar. It's that simple; why complicate it...oh...to confuse the issue and distract us intellectuals from what you are really trying to say. You want to believe that God is a liar, you want to believe that God is not omnipotent, you want to believe that God is Satan; but the fact of the matter is, God and Satan both exist within us humans, God also exists outside of us humans, Satan only exists within us humans. That is the Hell Satan is restricted to, he is limited to the boundaries of the Free-Will and choice of Humans where as God rules over us all being all-inclusive of everything. So, if you don't want to believe in God as a hero, and rather a zero; what does that say about you? If you say you don't believe in God, you are in effect saying you don't believe in yourself and you are denying the same and ignoring all those to whom you are speaking. I had to come to terms with this a short time ago. What exists within my mind is neither good nor bad rather just that of possibilities based solely on overlaying perceptions, experiences, and emotional ties. The choice was in how I use those possibilities that determines whether it is good or bad, and to whom? To me, and then to others. So if I see it as bad, then it is my responsibility to correct my choices. If it disturbs others and causes a ruckus then what good came of it? My choice of recovery is then necessary. If Robin Hood doesn't exist, become Robin Hood. The thing we are all searching for is a role-model to look up to and to whom we would like to become. Devoid of this necessity, we become decadent and lazy and then we defend this lifestyle. We believe we are using sanity to overcome insanity, but infact we are using insanity in an attempt to overcome sanity. This is the state of mind of the majority of narcissists made by their own choices. If you believe you are smart, there is no need to learn. If you believe you are ignorant, you will then see a necessity to learn. Narcissists disrespectfully refuse to acquiesce to most people's requests to change. We would like narcissists to become a hero so we can look up to them, but that is the most ridiculous conclusive action that most eventually take out of desperation due to the inability to do it within themselves. This is the nature for Gods, as a role-model. Why? Who are we around 24/7/365? Who's habits are around us 24/7/365? Who's choices are inflicting the pain we are feeling 24/7/365? When you answer that question, you will figure out what you want to do, either "Not to be" and become AN HERO or "To be" and become a hero. The choice is yours, you ignorant fucks, I'm just waiting to see what the fuck you are going to do next. "What the fuck have you done lately?" -Wanted
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Anonymous2009-03-21 3:08
So, who here wants to be active and become flame?
Who here wants to lounge around, waste time, accomplish nothing, and become a tree?
Now who can gather what happens to trees when they come into contact with flame?
Throw another timber on the bon-fire, boys!
People aren't subjected to this unwillingly; they are subjecting themselves to it willingly while denying the consequences of their own situations waiting for someone else to save them, when it is them who need to save themselves...but to them it doesn't matter unless someone else wants them to be saved; that they matter.
That's the most immature line of thinking I've ever heard. I wish I hadn't lived it myself, but I'm glad I have, because that was the challenge to me, by God, to do something about my own life, my own situation, my own beliefs.
If you track all action back to its source, you will find that all human activity is based upon a thought, and they exist within the human mind. This is belief. Of course, that's something you have to figure out for yourself to discover the truth of the matter. I'm only here to speak my mind, that is the truth of thoughts, now try and tell me that I didn't think the thoughts that were used to bring about this very text. Now realize, that if you do, you damage only yourself. Acceptance and denial is the absence of the question. Question everything; use many sources. (don't put all your eggs into one basket). I do not put all my beliefs into one basket, so I use many beliefs from many sources, and derive my own understandings. So what are you going to do?
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Anonymous2009-03-21 9:33
Flawed logic across the board is very flawed.
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Anonymous2009-03-21 18:00
>>12
Flawless human is flawless, amirite?
"To err is human."
Now who's the idiot?
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Anonymous2009-03-26 15:48
To overcome sanity, you must use insanity.
In the end there will be a revelation...
...you actually used sanity to overcome insanity.
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Anonymous2009-03-27 14:12
>>14
You have realized you were the one behind bars and stepped out of the cage.
I welcome you with open arms.
You are one of us.
You are free.
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Anonymous2009-03-27 20:55
>>1
I don't get this, how would it finish atheists?
>>13
Just proved >>12 's point.
I think I agree with >>12 , this is a ridiculous thread full of pseudo-science, speculation, faulty logic, and nonsensical spam. Here's how every science/religion thread on sci goes, in no particular order:
-Pseudo-scientific analysis of religion is undergone
-A religious riposte/theory consisting of faulty logic and nonsense-spam quickly pops up.
-Speculation takes place.
-The world's total IQ is lowered slightly.
If you truly want to understand what happens mostly on these threads on all of 4chan it is this;
If your answers were not generated by a standardized criteria, and you are communicating information subjectively, this is not science, it is rhetorical psycho-babble and of the Ego, ALWAYS.
Subjectivity = Any emotionally-charged communication of information that is bias.
example: I don't like standing here.
Objectivity = Any non-emotional communication of information "AS-IS".
example: I AM standing here.
All of 4chan is subjective and therefore of the Ego. This entire website is an ego-trip. Ego is the Devil. I'd say welcome to Hell, but since you now know...welcome to Heaven.
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Anonymous2009-04-21 7:16
It clearly says in the Bible, those that do not believe in God will never believe in God, do not try to teach them what they do not want to hear.
>>22
You may be trolling, but it still amazes me that I see fundies use that line. It makes no fucking sense. How can there still be Christians if you will never believe in their deity unless you already do? Nobody is born believing in any deity, let alone theirs in particular. That would make every Christian born since at least whenever that passage was written a liar. Or are the billions of children that have been brainwashed over the millennia an exception? And what about converts, are they liars too?
Sorry, I forgot: If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people.
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Anonymous2009-04-23 3:18
>>24
It's like in the matrix...
"The problem is choice."
They simply choose not to choose to believe in God. When God could be said to be anything and everything that is good and simple. Of course, you'd actually have to have some minute amount of faith to pursue possibilities that everything the bible talks about is actually about us, what we can do, what we might do, and possibilities of what has already been done.
But...that requires taking a "leap of faith"; not requiring an answer, before seeking it through questions.
Most people..."I require an answer before I ask a question. I want the baby without the labor pains. I want the money without all the hastles."
give me a fucking break...just grow the fuck up, huh? And btw, why the fuck should we give a fuck about ignorant people anyway...because "The ones who are hardest to love are the ones who need love the most." Sad...but true.
Take the simple things seriously, laugh at the complicated. Do some fucking research...instead of getting all puffed up from simple discussions, and find your own solid ground to stand upon. Jesus Christ doesn't have to be a real person for me to mimic his actions, I only need an example, from there; it's a choice left up to me, DO or DO NOT.
Now, what the fuck have you done lately?
...
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Anonymous2009-04-23 3:46
So here we go.
First off...
You don't want to be objective...hence why you are here shooting off your mouth to "anonymous" posters.
You are afraid of consequences hence why you don't want to make choices where you aren't aware of the consequences. Of course, you'd actually have to observe productive events for that to happen, but all you seem to do is observe the destructive events and you wonder why you are where you are. If you are afraid of the answers, don't ask the questions...does that sound familiar? You fear answers, yet you make them up everywhere you go, staving off the inevitable, distracting people away from your faults, blaming others for your mistakes all the while you wonder why your world is crumbling down around you...
It does so because you have chosen it to do so. Your circumstances (fate) is the result of your prior choices, and you ask yourself, "What is my destiny to be?" Look at your choices, I know it's tough, but no one else cares if you do or don't. Stop being a cry baby, stand on your own two feet, start with the things that are closest to you and work your way up from there. Start simple, start with everything you touch. When you do this, you will be expressing your own personal brand of Free-Will.
I'm getting back to my Philosophy courses, I wish you luck, you won't need it when your done, you'll make your own luck from then on out...if you just learn that there is no reaction without action, no action without choice, therefore choice exists within everything, but you must LOOK to be able to SEE it. Need examples?
All the information you are reading is from other people and transmitted vicariously through me; I'm just the messenger, stop trying to kill me and get to the root of your real issues...otherwise, continue living the lie without knowing it.
I'll continue on growing my life seeing colors in a new light each and every day, smelling new things, feeling new things, finding ways to learn and retain information to USE in my purposes. If you don't use it, you're going to loose it. Probably why everyone is morning daily, "Increasing knowledge increases sorrow." It's not an absolute until you investigate it. If you currently see the world as, "It doesn't exist until I see it." you will miss out on many great wonders you could only imagine if you would actually get up and do something about it.
I changed my way of thinking, If I can do it...especially previously having chosen to feign ignorance in the first place at age 10, surely anyone can do this.
Instead of "Seeing is believing" I choose "Believing is seeing" meaning I get up, walk outside and confirm my beliefs with the world around me "Seeing is affirming."
Surely, you can't believe in something to which you don't have any possibilities about, that's the mystery of life. We are blessed with the self-awareness that we don't know certain things, but we would like to find out. I didn't believe in God for 29 years of my life, after some amounts of research into what Self-Awareness might be I found that God doesn't just exist in my life, I have to choose to accept God into my life. I have many possibilities of what God might be, but regardless, he is everpresent in my life, because I choose for him to be there, even though he was there all along. It is cryptic, this is true, but for those who want the details...details are in the experience, not the assumptions. We don't create details, we live them everyday. Each day is a new experience if you choose for it to be so. It doesn't matter if you don't believe right now, start with small simple choices you believe you can make and work your way up from there. I started with the hardest thing and have been changing my body's passions towards my own objective goals...my God...the power...I never knew...I never even dreamed or imagined something like this could ever exist...I am grateful for ignorance, for without which I would not be gifted with the wisdom to seek my own awareness in everything.
If not for evil, could we recognize good? If not for variations in color, could we not recognize our favorite colors? If so, aren't these things just as important to us as the things that we favor and see as good?
And that is why I believe God created Good and Evil not for hostility and angst towards us, to torture us like play things, but for us to choose one way or the other.
To choose death or to choose life.
"To be or not to be? That is the question." -William Shakespeare
I'm back where I was when I was 9, now what will you do? Will you learn to learn? Or will you wallow in your time-wasting accumulating useless knowledge you will never use that contributes only to your misery which you choose to revel?
The question promotes life.
The answer is death.
That is my current belief why the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was said to be deadly, it's taste may be sweet for the moment, but it kills us slowly with kindness.
So, how do you resurrect yourselves from this slow death?
Turn your assumptions into questions and seek the truth of them outside of your mind. If it's true in everything, surely it is true for you.
Find out for yourselves what is truth and what is fiction; for me, fiction is the distraction from living, truth is the tool for paying attention to life.
But this is just for me, what you do with these possibilities? Who can say....perhaps only you?
>>22
not a christian, but strangely enough this does make a significant amount of logical sense.
there is no way supernatural occurrences could logically be reasoned or replicated for others to observe considering we have naturalistic means available to us.
all you can hope is for others to experience the same things you have if you want them to come to the conclusion they are real.
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totalperspec2009-04-30 11:28
I cannot even begin to express how much this thread has amused me. I should have known the members of 4chan would have a thread devoted to the ontological argument. Proving or disproving the existence of god based on one's preexisting beliefs. If anything it shows me that there is such a thing as a dogmatic born again atheist. If one must get away from the rigmarole of working and sleeping by contemplating "higher truths" I bestow the following.
1) The Big Bang was God's death
2) There is no such thing as an external explanation. There exists only description and the qualia of sense being made
3) The Hindus are right and everyone is right and any arguments are just attempts to eradicate posthumous diversity in order to reduce the number of personalized heavens and hells to a manageable amount
4) People dying is God shedding his skin cells
5) If you believe something, odds are very good that you're wrong
I'll be interested to see if this is trolling. I mean this is a touchy subject and I'm clearly mocking it, or at least the people who get angry about it. Please note that I believe none of the above, they're just some thoughts.
I encourage anyone who has an experience they can't explain to post it here for examination. I'm sure it will get poked full of holes but since the people doing the poking clearly don't have all their marbles that's okay. This could be a thread devoted to the most virtuous of concepts, the seeking of the greatest of truths.
"Oh lord, do we have the strengh to overcome this mighty task in one night! Or are we just jerking off. (Blazing Saddles)"
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Anonymous2009-05-01 3:44
>>29
The problem we are experiencing as humans is this.
Subject A sees something he likes and does what he can to replicate the action made in order to make the something a resource.
Subject B sees subject A and dislikes the way subject A is performing and the way he takes control of a resource.
The correct answer for the continuation of the species is for Subject B to do what he feels right, but in his own life. In doing so he surrounds himself with his own likable traits and is less disparaged by the sight of others.
Subject A is doing nothing wrong...according to subject A
It would be wrong of Subject B to tell Subject A that he is doing it wrong. By wrong he would actually mean wrong according to himself.
If someone has a problem, it is up to this person to fix the problem...stop passing the buck and trying to get other people to make this world a better world for you to live in.
>>30 XD
Take your ecks dee bullshit someplace else.
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Anonymous2009-05-01 5:42
>>32
XD Hahahahahhahaha I love this. I skip over so much until somebody bitches, then I look it up. Thanks for teaching me XD.
It's like the "trolls" Most trolling is so bad that it improves the dialog. XD XD XD XD XD XD
All of this, any information you can conceive is simply a distraction or a blaming device in order to distract you from your real enemy. He says he's your best friend.
The greatest trick he ever pulled was convincing you he is you.
The greatest con he ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist.
He is pulling the wool over your eyes, and you are allowing him to do so.
He loves to hide the truth from you.
He loves to insult others in order to raise himself up.
He loves decadence.
He loves to repeat the same mistakes continually.
Btw, if anyone is still interested in what this thread was originally about, here are some videos of Conway lecturing on the Free Will Theorem. Very interesting and entertaining.