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Jesus Christ - Son of God or a Madman

Name: Anonymous 2009-01-31 15:07

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=554629
"Jesus IS the Son of God, or he WAS a madman."

So said CS Lewis, a reasonable Brit.

I am a product of the Bible Belt. I am not reasonable. I am sick of guys in backward collars making a living saying Christ was a social philosopher they can sell at the Country Club.

Screw philosophy.

At the verry least Jesus Christ was a "mere" man who DEMANDED the unimaginable agony of the cross.

Or He IS the Son of God.

The well-paid backwards collar type tries to make a reasonable compromise of Him.

Tomorrow I celebrate the birth of Jesus, who did not compromise.

Name: Anonymous 2009-01-31 15:56

Or he didn't exist at all, seeing as there is exactly zero actual evidence.

Name: Anonymous 2009-01-31 21:35

wut

Name: Anonymous 2009-01-31 21:41

>>2
Idiot.  There's more evidence for Jesus existing than for a crapload of other historical figures that noone denies actually lived.

Name: Anonymous 2009-01-31 23:56

maybe he was just a dick, did you think of that, mr smartipants

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-01 0:12

>>4
I've seen this argument made by dozens of Christians and not a single one of them has ever backed it up. Even google only finds circular references to the Bible and other fallacious blatherings. So two things I'd like you to address as concisely as you can, ignoring the rest of my post until you've done so:

1) Cite at least ONE example of evidence for Jesus with at least one credible source.

2) Cite at least ONE person whose existience is unquestioned yet of whom we have little evidence-- less than you believe we have for Jesus.

________________________________

The earliest accounts of Jesus are Christian texts written decades and centuries after his supposed death. There is nothing to collaborate those stories. On almost every point, those texts conflict with each other, let alone with credible sources. Events and people happening in the wrong times, places, and order, multiple conflicting versions, internal inconsistencies and impossibilities, etc, etc.

Face it, the Jesus myth is simply blatant plagiarism of earlier pagan folklore. Literally every detail in the story of Jesus has dozens of older incarnations.

>>5
You might enjoy this:
http://godisimaginary.com/i39.htm

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-01 4:44

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-01 6:47

CS Lewis makes a lot of unfounded statements in his little novel. To which there are a number of things to say, including:

(1) http://www.livius.org/ct-cz/cyrus_I/babylon04.html#Prayer%20of%20Nabonidus
is a text from the Dead Sea Scrolls and indicates that at least some ancient Jews believed that humans could forgive sins on behalf of God.

(2) The Dalai Lama thinks he's the fourteenth incarnation of a helper spirit named Avalokiteśvara.  He is not a lunatic and he isn't who he says he is.  He's just wrong.

(3) In Mark 11:12-17, Jesus gets angry at a tree for not bearing fruit out of season, before rampaging around the Temple quoting irrelevant Scripture.  (Pigeons were being sold so that poorer Jews could make a sacrifice.  Money-changers were there because the Temple tax could not be paid with foreign coins.  Neither of these things contravened Jewish law.)

It's a fun game.

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-01 14:46

>>6
>1) Cite at least ONE example of evidence for Jesus with at least one credible source.

Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars, written 115 AD
"Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome."

"He" being Emperor Claudius

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-01 22:21

>>9
Only the most ignorant of Christian apologists assert that this passage has anything to do with Jesus Christ. You'd be slightly better off if you had instead quoted Tacitus and his Annals, seeing as Tacitus actually is talking about Jesus, but even then he is merely repeating rumor long after the supposed events took place, which is not evidence.

Anyway, this event is often confused with the expulsion of 19 CE, but Claudius didn't become Emperor until 41 CE. Context puts this event at 49-52 CE, about 20 years after the supposed death of Jesus Christ in 30-34 CE. Instead, the vast majority of historians, even conservative Christians, agree that what Suetonius is actually describing are the early Christian riots, in response to persecution by the Romans, which also resulted in expulsion. This event is even mentioned breifly in the Bible in Acts 18:2:
2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.

Regardless, Gaius Suetonius Tranquilius was born in 69-71 CE. The book in question, De vita Caesarum (On the Life of the Caesars or The Twelve Caesars), was written in 121 CE. The book is not a primary source, rather it is almost entirely based on gossip, scandal, and his own subjective musings. This passage in particular is simply a brief and vague mention of events that happened 70 years earlier and 20 years before he was born.

If you'd like the details of the events in question, I would recommend a book called "Impulsore Chresto: Opposition to Christianity in the Roman Empire c.50-250 AD (Early Christianity in the Context of Antiquity)" by Jakob Engberg (ISBN-10: 3631567782, ISBN-13: 978-3631567784).

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-01 22:29

>>10
Just in case I wasn't clear enough, a brief mention of a rumor of an event that took place 70 years prior and 20 years before the author was born that had nothing to do with Jesus Christ... isn't evidence for Jesus' existence. Not even close. Feel free to try again, though. I'm also waiting on an answer to point #2 from post #6.

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-01 23:23

>>10
>>11
Lol, your denial entertains me.

I suppose I shouldn't trust any books on the Civil War unless the authors were actually alive at the time, right?

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-01 23:43

>>12
Stop trying to change the subject with blatantly fallacious straw men.

You seem to be contesting my definition of "evidence". If so, then please do so in a mature fashion by explaining how "a brief mention of a rumor" qualifies as archaeological evidence, regardless of whether or not the author was alive at the time. You will also need to refute my argument that the passage is not, in fact, about Jesus at all. You will probably want to do some research as to the actual definitions of evidence as they relate to your case.

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-02 11:45

>>13

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_myth_hypothesis

>The Jesus myth hypothesis is the hypothesis that Jesus did not exist as a historical person and that the Jesus of the New Testament was created by early Christians based on earlier mythology.

>Among biblical historians and scholars, the hypothesis receives little discussion, for example Robert Van Voorst has written that "the theory of Jesus' nonexistence is now effectively dead as a scholarly question."


If you're so sure of yourself, why don't you go try and convince some historians or archeologists?  Someone who's opinion matters.

I don't have the time, and I don't really care enough to have this conversation.

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-02 12:46

>>14
Wow. That's some pretty blatant quote mining.

Among biblical historians and scholars
Found your problem. If you would bother actually reading the article, you'd see that the hypothesis has a long list of notable supporters and a long list of arguments going for it. It seems pretty obvious to me that "biblical historians and scholars", more commonly known as Christian apologists, would not just reject it completely without critical thought, but actively spread FUD about it. Indeed, the ONLY criticisms of it are from Christian apologists making claims they cannot support.

If you're so sure of yourself, why don't you go try and convince some historians or archeologists?  Someone who's opinion matters.
Let's see, ad hominem, appeal to authority, and some other fallacy I can't recall the name of.

I don't have the time, and I don't really care enough to have this conversation.
Same deal. You cared enough to make that post, if not others. If you want to back down now, that's one thing, but don't act like you haven't lost.

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-02 12:47

>>14
whose

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-02 21:28

>>15
lol, whatever dude.  If it makes you feel better to think you "won" an argument against an anonymous internet troll with no particular knowledge or interest in the subject, then fine.

And oh, btw, there was no "argument".  You put forth a stupid, unfounded opinion that goes against the majority of the scientific world and demanded that everyone else prove you wrong, and noone could be bothered to spend hours researching the topic in a futile attempt to force some knowledge into your head.

So if by "losing", you mean not getting sucked into a dumb argument with an obvious moron (any more than I already have >_<), then yeah, I "lost" lol.

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-03 2:27

>>17
Please stop it with the ad hominems and the logical fallacies. Just stop posting and don't respond if you really don't care, no hard feelings.

All I asked for is ONE piece of halfway decent evidence. As I've already said, the passage >>9 quoted is agreed upon, even by the majority of Christian apologists, to not be about Jesus Christ. Such a thing clearly isn't evidence of Jeusus Christ existing, only of early Christians rioting in Rome in that time period, which has been verified by numerous other sources. And as I said, even the BIBLE mentions the event in question happening long after Jesus himself is out of the picture. If you have a problem with any of those claims, say so and be specific as to the reasons. Not to sound like an arrogant asshole, but if you attack me instead of my argument, I can only assume you know I'm right.

And oh, btw, there was no "argument".
I put forth a hypothesis based on what I know (>>2). Even with extensive research, I have never seen any scientific evidence suggesting the existence of a man named Jesus Christ. Perhaps, you're right, though. Maybe I phrased my post a bit too assertively. I should have said something like this:
Or he didn't exist at all, which is my hypothesis based on the evidence I've seen, which is none at all. I would, however, be interested in any such evidence, should anyone know of any.
My hypothesis is logical, based on my observed evidence. Why? Burden of Proof and Occam's Razor.

Then >>4 made this bald assertion:
There's more evidence for Jesus existing than for a crapload of other historical figures that noone denies actually lived.
I then asked him to back up that claim with even one piece of that evidence. So far, the only person to step up to the plate has struck out.

You put forth a stupid, unfounded opinion
Again, my opinion is irrelevant. You are the one asserting that Jesus existed. I've seen no evidence to suggest that such is the case. Burden of Proof again, look it up. It is YOU who has presented an unfounded opinion. I'm just playing the role of a the skeptic. If my opinion were stupid, there would have to be obvious evidence to support the hypothesis of Jesus' existence. I'm still not seeing any, and if you don't HAVE any, I'm afraid you would be holding onto a belief that, by definition, is irrational and delusional.

that goes against the majority of the scientific world
If you would read the Wikipedia article already linked in this thread (possibly by you), you would understand why. Look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_myth_hypothesis#Criticism
However, the question of Jesus' historical existence is an ongoing inquiry, with initiatives such as the Jesus Project actively investigating the available evidence. Jesus-myth proponent Earl Doherty states "after a survey of the history of research into the historical Jesus, Van Voorst tackles “the noisy side current” of Jesus mythicism. He notes that over one hundred books and essays during the last two centuries have denied the existence of Jesus. Their arguments, he says, are dismissed as “weak and bizarre” by contemporary New Testament scholars. Van Voorst is quite right in saying that “mainstream scholarship today finds it unimportant”. Most of their comment (such as those quoted by Michael Grant) are limited to expressions of contempt.[115] "[115] He states that "interests, both religious and secular, have traditionally mounted a campaign against it,"[115] and states that mainstream scholarship is guilty of a "notable lack of proper understanding of the mythicist case,"[116] leading to "the non-professional scholar" and "well-informed amateur on the internet" becoming those whom he regards as "quite educated (meaning largely self-educated) in biblical research."[116] "There are those, scholars and laypeople alike, who regularly assume that something ‘big’ and unique, some powerful figure, had to be responsible for the Christian movement. But if one has consistently misread that movement, failed to recognize its antecedents, the steps of its development, imposed preconceptions upon it, they will be forever forced to make the same erroneous assumption, and alternatives will not commend themselves."[116]

Essentially, a large number of people are guilty of a series of logical fallacies, notably Arguments from Ignorance, Personal Incredulity, and Numbers (the Bandwagon Fallacy). There is also the oppressive social taboo about criticizing religion. Dawkins talks about it in his book, "The God Delusion". (Don't bother criticizing him or his work if you haven't actually read it. If you haven't yet read it, do yourself a favor and read it this weekend.)

Anyway, Science isn't a consensus. Especially not when "the majority" is failing to think critically and skeptically for whatever reasons. Asking for simple evidence is not going against the "scientific world", it's following the Scientific Method.

and demanded that everyone else prove you wrong,
It's called skepticism. I'm not asking anyone to prove me wrong, I'm asking them to justify what seems to be to be their irrational and delusional faith. Burden of Proof, etc, etc.

and noone could be bothered to spend hours researching the topic in a futile attempt to force some knowledge into your head.
You're falling for the same logical fallacies I just listed above. Surely if EVERYONE believes there is sufficient reason to believe in the existence of a historical Jesus, a few pieces of actual evidence should come easily to mind? I've been looking for evidence for the better part of a decade. I haven't found any of it. But since you seem to be so knowledgeable, would you mind sharing? Seriously.

So if by "losing", you mean not getting sucked into a dumb argument with an obvious moron (any more than I already have >_<), then yeah, I "lost" lol.
No, I mean "losing" as in, your faith remains completely unjustified. Your assertions are baseless, irrational, and delusional. Sorry to be so blunt, but you haven't exactly demonstrated anything to the contrary.

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-03 4:06

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-03 4:27

>>19
Umm... have you not read the article you just linked to? All scientific analysis points to it being at least a thousand years too late to be authentic, with numerous evidences of forgery besides. It doesn't help that the Church isn't letting anybody play with it anymore.

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-03 5:16

"Radiocarbon dating in 1988 by three independent teams of scientists yielded results published in Nature indicating that the shroud was made during the Middle Ages, approximately 1300 years after Jesus lived."

Everything after that only confirms it while the Christians BAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWW.

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-03 7:44

Sure is troll in /sci/ today.

>>wall of text guy
Give it up. You and I both know christfags are retarded. That's why they're christfags. HURR DURR. You're just being trolled. Hard.

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-03 11:41

>>18
HAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I write three sentences and you respond word by word??  You're pathetic dude.

lolitrollu, etc.

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-03 11:41

>>23
oops, fergot muh sage

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-03 22:56

>>21
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4210369.stm

Turin shroud 'older than thought'

Shroud of Turin, Nasa
Tests in 1988 concluded the cloth was a medieval "hoax"
The Shroud of Turin is much older than suggested by radiocarbon dating carried out in the 1980s, according to a new study in a peer-reviewed journal.

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-03 23:19

>>25
If the Turin shroud was "older than thought", then who was around to make it? I mean, how do you make a shroud without thinking? Even Chuck Norris would have to think to sew a shroud.

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-03 23:27

>>26
die

Name: Anonymous 2009-02-04 5:16

Thursday or Friday night I'd like to discuss (read: debunk) the shroud in detail, if the thread hasn't moved too far on, but this will do for now.

>>25
The wonderful thing about Science? It's peer reviewed. And Rogers' peers have been universally critical. (The media and religious apologists don't count, sorry.) It was pseudoscience with a clear agenda. Simply put, Rogers was full of shit. He got his ass handed to him pretty badly from the start and his paper has been firmly placed in the "junk" pile. Some of my old bookmarks, both well worth a read:

http://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/shroud.html
http://www.freeinquiry.com/skeptic//shroud/articles/rogers-ta-response.htm

I'm sure I've got more somewhere, and I'll bet there are other interesting responses I've not seen yet. I'll try to find some for my future posts.

Rogers' work doesn't even refute the previous C-14 dates at all. In fact, his "findings" confirm them, just with a much smaller degree of accuracy and credibility.

But putting the actual age of the artifact aside, it's still an obvious hoax. Rogers didn't even attempt to refute that mountain of evidence. Read the Wikipedia article and tell me it isn't a hoax, I dare you.

And let's not forget, even assuming it is a real shroud from a really crucified person from, say, 32 CE +/- 4 years (to fit most accounts of Jesus' death), you still don't have evidence of Jesus. You have evidence of a crucified person from that period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
Etc, etc, etc.

Oh, and many independent teams have been able to recreate the hoax with 14th century technology, to great degrees of accuracy. It turns out, it's actually very simple to make identical forgeries, while a legit shroud cannot possibly turn out like the one in question. No one, to my knowledge, has actually demonstrated how such a thing is possible.

Don't change these.
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