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Time Travel

Name: René Barjavel 2008-02-29 1:34

So I just got done Watching tonight's episode of Lost. No spoilers if you didn't watch, but I will say it involved time travel. Lots of it. The more I watched the more I kept yelling "No. NO. That doesn't make any fucking sense, time doesn't work like that, you braindead plebs" at my tv. I know time travel is mostly theoretical, but can /sci/ explain time travel to me as best as they can? I'm sure you understand it better than Lost's writers do

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-29 1:46

You enter a tube and you crawl through it and come out the otherside as a Roman in a bathrobe

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-29 3:29

>>2
As accurate as anything's likely to be in this thread.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-29 3:40

OP's name is a time travel reference. René Barjavel is the author of the 1943 book The Imprudent Traveler which first described the Grandfather Paradox. Lets say you go back in time and kill your grandfather before he meets your grandmother. That would mean one of your parents would never have been born, and therefore neither would you. But if you were never born, then you couldn't have killed your grandfather, which would mean you would have been born, and could have gone back and killed your grandfather, thus resulting in you not being born, which would make you unable to kill your grandfather, which means you would be born and could go back in time and yadda yadda garble warble piss. The paradox loops forever, that's why it's a paradox.  

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-29 11:33

Perhaps if you go back in time everything will be deterministic until the time you went back in time. If your grandfather is still alive and you go back in time to kill him try as you might you will never succeed as it never happenned. If you do kill your grandfather it will turn out to be his long lost twin or something.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-29 19:05

>>5
you could become your own grandfather.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-29 21:41

When people go back in time and try to change history, the outcome is already determined. After all, they already were there and back again before they even left.
Gah. Where is the quote am I paraphrasing here from? I just can't remember.

Anyway, time travel involves 4-dimensional space-time, so classical Newtonists need not apply.
You have the trousers of time, which should lay to rest any silly notions about bathrobes, or you have an internally consistent time loop, in which a reaction can be its own cause, that is, there doesn't have to be a reason as long as the 4-dimensionally structure is well-formed.

The time loop seems unlikely, since operating by the rules we know, large systems don't end up in the exact state they started in, e.g. your grandchild ending up with your exact genes is an biological improbability, and for him/her/you to also at the end of the loop consist of all the same atoms you consisted off, you'd basically have to eat yourself. It may be that the existance of a time loop would coerce the space-time structure to make the pieces fit, though.

Name: 4tran 2008-03-01 0:27

Time travel is phail.
Lrn2GR (unless you have a better quantum gravity theory).

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-01 23:19

easiest answer i can give TIME IS AN ILLUSION

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-02 1:15

>>9
Just so long as it's a topographically flat illusion I think we'll all be fine.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-02 11:26

>>9
Lunchtime doubly so?

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-02 13:45

>>7
The outcome isn't already determined if it yields a new timeline.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-02 14:11

>>12
Yeah, that was a quote from somewhere I can't remember. Maybe a Pratchett book?
I mentioned the trouser theory, what more do you want?
Maybe we should turn to discussing the verb tenses required for successfully documenting a time traveling experience, e.g. "I am going to have been my own grand-dad."

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-02 14:34

If you go back in time and kill your grandfather nothing would happen you fucking niggers. Prove me wrong.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-02 14:46

>>14
The timeline you currently exist in will not change, nor will any timelines created after the exact moment your grandfather dies, but any timeline that exists before that moment is changed, and a new future is created.

So you're wrong. Something does happen, nigger.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-02 14:52

Time travel is impossible for the same reasons wormholes are impossible, and pime taradoxes.

lrn2generalrelativity

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-02 15:01

>>16
General relativity doesn't rule out wormholes. And since wormholes break causality, it also doesn't rule out time travel or the rest.
All it rules out is faster-than-light travel through normal space.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-02 17:44

>>17
Here someone's already provided the explanation I'm too lazy to give: http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/770002407831/m/521006297831


To start, one needs to solve Einsteins field equations :
Gμν = 8πTμν

where T is the stress energy tensor, and G is the Einstein tensor given by:

Gμν = Rμν - 1/2gμνR

where Rμν is the Ricci curvature tensor, R the scalar curvature, and gμν, the metric that satisfies all of the equations here (there are 16 of them).

Now, Einstein originally believed that no solution would be found to these equations, but only one year later Karl Schwarzschild found just such a solution by assuming spherical symmetry. His answer describes space outside of stars and certain types of black holes (known as Schwarzschild Black Holes). The solution:

ds2 = -(1-2GM/r)dt2+(1-2GM/r)-1dr2+r2dΩ2
with dΩ2 being the normal differential portion of a sphere: dθ2+sin2θdφ2

Now... With a large amount of math, one can switch to what are known as the Kruskal Coordinates, T and X. They range from -infinity to +infinity, and can be related to the original r (distance from the singularity) and t (time) coordinates as follows:
X2 - T2 = (r/(2GM)-1)er/2GM
and
T/X = tanh(t/4GM)

With these variable in mind (X and T) we can create what is known as the Kruskal diagram:


Now, before proceeding further, let's identify what is on this figure. First, keep in mind that every point on the graph is actually a 2-sphere (S2) of radius r (our original distance from the singularity). The axis here, are simply our T and X coordinates defined above. The two lines that run from the bottom-left to the top-right and the top-left to the bottom-right represent the event horizon of the Schwartzschild black hole. You cross that there is no coming back Wink.(well maybe) Now 'normal' space, e.g. where we all exist right now is at r > 2GM (the event horizon distance) and all t, region I in the diagram. Now the singularity at the center of the black hole exists at X2-T2 = -1, so we exclude the regions where X2-T2 < -1... physics just doesn't exist there, this is the grey shaded regions at the top and bottom.

Now with an understanding of what the basics are and where we stand, we can discuss the regions:

    * Region I: This is where we are, normal space. At you get further and further away from the black hole spacetime becomes asymptotically flat.
    * Region II :This is the black hole itself. Once you cross into region II, no signal you emit can ever leave again to be heard in region I
    * Region III: (here's where it gets cool) This is the 'time reverse' of region II. Nothing from region I can get in => this is a white hole! Here everything leaves the singularity.
    * Region IV:Another asymtotically flat region akin to region I (here is where it could get interesting)



So this raises the possiblility, could spacetime be warped to the point where an observer could travel directly from region I to region IV? This would be a wormhole to some other point in spacetime!

The only place this can realistically happen is along the T=0 axis, e.g. we are traveling purely along the X=0 line. At the point where T=0, you would have the following:


At T=0 there is indeed a hole between region I and region IV. However for all T != 0, the hole shrinks and closes. It can be shown that it closes faster than any time-like observer (e.g. any object traveling at less than the speed of light) cannot possibly travel through it. As T > 0 the radius shrinks, and it shrinks in such a way that the neck pinches off to r=0 at a rate so great that no wormhole could exist for anyone not going greater than the speed of light to ever see.

This is why wormholes cannot exist.

Now, there are theories as to how a wormhole could exist, but they are merely speculation and have little to no grounding in reality. IF some form of exotic matter (something with a negative energy denisty) existed, then it is postulated that a wormhole could be created an be stable. However, no such beast is known, or (to my knowledge) realistically postulated.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-02 23:36

>>18
Shut up.

The most important thing to decide is whether we're going by Terminator rules or Back to the Future rules.

Name: 4tran 2008-03-02 23:38

>>13
Even better: we stop using English and start using a language without verb tenses.

>>17
I'm pretty sure wormholes require negative mass/energy densities, which do not exist.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-03 1:10

>>19
Oh pardon me then, Terminator.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-03 2:13

>>21
Oh, well then it's simple. Time travel is intuitive; anything you do in the past changes the future without affecting your traveling back in the first place.

But when you travel back, you end up inexplicably naked.

ALWAYS.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-03 14:23

i thought BttF1 and BttF2 contradicted themselves somewhat
in part 1 he was starting to fade b/c his parents weren't going to be together.
in part 2 his interfering in the past created another timeline

so which is it? only one or multiple timelines can be created from interfering in the past?

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-03 21:34

>>22
Oh, I'm a nudist anyway.  Most 4channers are.

>>23
There was no contradiction.  The plots merely reflected each other's axial symmetries in the time dimension.  The appropriate Ricci tensor matrices should make that clear.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-03 22:40

>>23
They were different situations. In BttF1, he had created a situation in which the timeline he created would not have him in it—nor his siblings—hence the fading. The BttF2 timeline still had his being born to go back in time.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-05 16:13

You enter the time machine with steady determination. One hand hovers over the time-dial while the other clutches the polished old rifle from granddad's WWII trunk. Irony aside, you fully intend to disprove the paradox. 1942:04:06:11:43:00AM. The time is ripe, you'll ambush the old fart just as he's on his way to fill out his enlistment papers... Then the world will know for sure. Without hesitation you punch the red button that brings the machine to life. With a flash of blue light you've arrived at your temporal destination, ready to prove the universe wrong. It is with great disappointment that you realize the you've forgotten three crucial points of data: Spacial coordinates. The machine arrives at precisely the same position from whence it left... in relation to the rest of the universe. Gramps unfortunately, as well as the rest of planet Earth, are approximately 1.8 AU away in its orbit. The piercing whistle of precocious air escaping through the cracks in the time machines door quickly fades as pressures equalize... to vacuum. Before the cold of empty space can chill you to the core, your body is wrenched by spasms as nitrogen bubbles out from your blood. Your flesh swells, blood vessels burst, blood seeps from your skin in patches of hematidrosis... and you brain... deprived of live giving oxygen... slows... until...

BAD END

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-10 2:25

>>26

Fucking win.

End

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-10 2:49

>>26
The sun moves through the galaxy too. You'd be drifting around somewhere outside the solar system.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-10 4:18

>>26,28
And pray tell, how fast is it moving as measured from the universal absolute reference frame?

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-10 17:48

>>29
You mean your mom, right?
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Name: All You Zombies (synopsis) 2008-03-10 18:23

A baby girl is mysteriously dropped off at an orphanage in Cleveland in 1945. "Jane" grows up lonely and dejected, not knowing who her parents are, until one day in 1963 she is strangely attracted to a drifter. She falls in love with him, but just when things are looking up for Jane a series of disasters strikes: First, she becomes pregnant by the drifter, who then disappears. Second, during the complicated delivery doctors discover that Jane has both sets of sex organs, and to save her life, they most surgically convert "her" to a "him." Finally, a mysterious stranger kidnaps her baby from the delivery room.

Reeling from these disasters, rejected from society, scorned by fate, "he" becomes a drunkard and a drifter. Not only has Jane lost her parents and her lover, but he has lost his only child as well. Years later, in 1970, he stumbles into a lonely bar, called Pop's Place, and spills out his pathetic story to an elderly bartender. The sympathetic bartender offers the drifter the chance to avenge the stranger who left her pregnant and abandoned, on the condition that he join the "time traveler corps." Both of them enter a time machine and the bartender drops the drifter off in 1963. The drifter is strangely attracted to a young orphan girl, who subsequently becomes pregnant.

The bartender then goes forward 9 months, kidnaps the baby girl from the hospital, and drops the baby off in an orphanage back in 1945. Then the bartender drops off the thoroughly confused drifter in 1985, to enlist in the time traveler corps. The drifter eventually gets his life together and becomes respected and elderly member of the time traveler corps, and then disguises himself as a bartender and has his most difficult mission: a date with destiny, meeting a certain drifter at Pop's Place in 1970.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-10 20:11

>>29
QFT. People who don't understand relativity have no business being in a discussion about time travel.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-10 23:55

>>32
That's the whole thread though.

Name: Anonymous 2008-03-11 1:54

Traveling back in time is impossible. With time travel, time isn't a restriction. We would have already seen people from the future in our time already, which means it isn't going to be done or mankind (Earth?) ends before we can get to that stage.

On the other hand, slowing down time or speeding it up is possible. Get a clock that measures time in milliseconds or anything more detailed (femtoseconds?), stick it underground and wait an amount of decades. You'll see it slightly off compared to a clock that has been above ground. We can only manipulate the 4th dimension so much.

Anyway, I don't know how much of this is true, it's just what I've heard without doing any sort of research.

Don't change these.
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