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Pi must repeat

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-05 12:57

If Pi has infinite numbers following the decimal, at same point those numbers must fit into a sequence that has already been done, for whatever length of numbers.  Mathemetecians need only figure out how many numbers are repeated and for how long and in what places of the sequence.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-05 13:02

Pi is irrational.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-05 13:05

  v v   Look, look, I found a repetition! Call the friggin' AMS!
3.14159

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-05 13:36

Fucking middle school kids.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-05 20:14

>>1

Duh.  Finding the longest repetition sequence is like finding the largest possible tangram.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-06 19:24

bumping a delicious thread

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-06 19:42

NEEDS MOAR DISCUSSIAGE.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-06 19:43

>>1
Fail. Your first sentence is incorrect.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-06 22:41

Conjecture,

There's a sequence S = n_1,n_2,...,n_x of the ordered digits of Pi such that

Pi = the sequence S followed immediately by S, y amount of times for all integers y => 1

i.e at some stage the digits of Pi repeat themselves 2,3 times etc but not an infinite times to make it rational.

Not a troll btw

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-06 23:01

More important is:

Why would we ever need to know if pi repeats or not? Is there any real-world application of needing more than 500 decimal places for any number?

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-06 23:22

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-06 23:25

>>10
lol engineers are so shallow.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-06 23:28

>>11 is false. The guy in the cartoon ASSUMES Pi is a normal number, meaning its decimal expansion is all "random" digits. Nobody has proven Pi is normal.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-06 23:30

And yeah it becomes kind of obvious >>9 is a corollary of Pi being normal.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-06 23:52

>>1
You failed at "pi must repeat"

>>3
>>5
>>9
>>10
Fail.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-07 12:20

>>1

Counterexample:

0.12345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728293031....

You lose. 

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-07 14:09

Wow, I never thought that 4chan would have something like this on it. Very nice!

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-07 17:27

If you use successively higher bases ad infinitum, you will get less and less frequent occurrences of repeated digits.  Using base pi, in fact, you get one digit: pi.  There you go.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-07 17:44

>>18
In fact pi in base pi is 1.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-07 17:49

>>18
Or 0.9999999999...

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-07 19:01

Well then, show me a number with random decimals that will result in some amount of significant data when converted to machine code.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-07 22:45

>>19
i c wut u did thar...
>>20
i c wut u did...
>>21
i c... etc

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-07 22:54

>>18,19,20

Worst troll ever.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-08 0:15

>>23
Actually, troll, as >>18, I can say that I am not >>19/>>20.  And I am right.  You may check.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-08 18:35

Speaking out in a peaceful protest that will be full of high school faggots is stupid, yes.

Half of you wearing masks and the other half not is stupid, yes. It's fucking stupid.

Coagulating the sidewalk outside of the Co$ is going to what exactly?

Every single person that isn't a fucking retard knows they are scammers.
The actual Scifags themselves don't give a FUCK what you think.

What exactly are you doing handing out fliers?

Mail them some fucking anthrax, hang yourself in front of the church, SET THE NEW HIGH SCORE.
Don't hand out FUCKING FLIERS.

This is the only chance /b/ will EVER have of curing the cancer. I don't give a fuck if it's done through pissbombing some underage b& or making fun of and dismantling a church full of retards.

All I know is that the fate of /b/ WILL be decided on the 10th for better or worse.

COPYPASTA THIS FOR GREAT JUSTICE.

Name: RedCream 2008-02-09 14:12

Somewhere in π there must be a string of decimals equal to 0.999..., which is of course equal to 1.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-09 18:37

>>26
I don't think you understand the concept of infinite strings of numbers.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-09 19:03

>>26

That literally implies pi is rational, idiots.

Name: RedCream 2008-02-09 22:41

>>27 >>28
I trolled you both hard, and put you away salty wet.  Morons.

At it turns out, there's a 0.999... in ANY number greater than or equal to 1.  After all, all such numbers can be expressed as 0.999...+X.

T-R-O-L-L-E-D!

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-10 0:39

>>29
Now I'm hard, asshole.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-10 8:21

>>29

You don't get maths.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-10 9:20

>>29
Numbers smaller than one as well, dipshit. Negative numbers too hard a concept for you?

Name: RedCream 2008-02-10 11:36

>>30
You know what to do next.  Hint:  It rhymes with "fap".

>>31
You don't get that you were TROLLED.  Do a barrel roll.  NAO!

>>32
I was speaking about ABSOLUTE VALUE, fucktard.  Shit, do I have to stoop to drawing you a fucking PICTURE, or something?  Is there crayon in your "math book", asstard?

MAXIMUM PWNG ACHIEVED

RedCream wins.  Again.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-10 11:53

                       _ _     .'  , .. ∧_ _∧
 Anonymous --->    ∧  _ - ― = ̄  ̄`:, .∴ '     (    )<--- RedCream
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             /   -―  ̄ ̄   ̄"'" .   ’ | y'⌒  ⌒i  
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           /   _, \               / ,  ノ
           |  / \  `、            / / /
           j  /  ヽ  |           / / ,'
         / ノ   {  |          /  /|  |
        / /     | (_         !、_/ /   〉
       `、_〉      ー‐‐`            |_/

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-10 12:20

in b4 cantor.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-10 18:26

>>33

orly, so only n s.t. |n| >= 1?

guess 0.1 != 0.0999... then, huh?

fucking idiot.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-10 21:29

Being a retard is not trolling, RedCream.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-10 22:11

How do we know pi isn't some fraction of a square root, like 20sqrt(2)/9 ?

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-10 23:10

>>38
Because not everyone is a miracle Down syndrome baby that made it to middle school.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-11 2:01

>>39
Now we know that the Down's may indeed be able to recite digits of pi without end.  In fact the secret to pi is in the Down's.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-11 8:53

>>38

It's transcendental, that's why.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-11 12:31

>>38

Because Ferdinand von Lindemann proved in 1822 that it isn't.

That's how.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-11 15:55

So what exactly does transcendental mean? In simple terms?

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-11 17:34

{x {({Sin[360/x]}^2) + {1 - Cos[360/x]}^2}^{1/2}}/2

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-11 17:46

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-11 19:44

>>43
That it's fucking weird.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-11 20:45

>>43
a number is transcendental if it is not the root of any polynomial with integer coefficients.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-11 20:51

>>46

Welcome to the big and beautiful bestiary of modern mathematics, where complicated creatures eclipse our ken.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-12 0:01

Could pi be the root of a polynomial with radical coefficients?  Anyone disproved that?

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-12 14:43

If pi was something else, what would happen?

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-12 15:23

So what's the pattern in Pi? If there's none how can it be truly random?

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-12 16:36

Was Jesus an extraterrestrial? If not, why so come?

Name: 4tran 2008-02-12 18:06

>>38
There's a proof somewhere that pi is not an algebraic number (root of a finite polynomial).

Nice trolling RedCream, I lol'd

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-12 23:01

>>49


The roots of such a polynomial would be roots of some other polynomial with integer coefficients.

For example, the roots of x^2 - (sqrt(2))x + 1 are also roots of x^4 + 1.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-12 23:30

>>51
It's not random in any rigorously defined mathematical sense.  It's completely deterministic; there's dozens of compact summation formulas that will give you pi to any precision you want.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-13 1:14

"How do we know pi isn't some fraction of a square root, like 20sqrt(2)/9 ?"
Wtf?
Why are people with no knowledge of math posting on a math/science message board?

http://library.wolfram.com/examples/quintic/people/Lambert.html
Just go try to learn stuff on your own before posting on the internet.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-13 8:38

>>54

Is that always true though, proof?

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-13 13:30

OK, what about non-polynomials, where the variable has any of negative, fractional, or radical exponents?

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-13 13:36

>>56
to get knowledge out of churlish cranky queers

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-14 21:17

>>58

That is a good question.  Pi is not the root of any "polynomial" equation where the polynomials have powers of x that are fractions, either positive or negative.

For radical exponents, I believe the question is open.  That means we don't know the answer. 

If you allow *arbitrary* exponents, pi is a root of a zillion different equations.   For example, pi is a root of the equation x^q - 2 = 0, where q = log(2)/log(pi). 

If you allow the "polynomials" to have infinitely many terms, you can find equations of which pi is a root.  For example, it is the smallest positive root of
x - x^3 / 6 + x^5 / 120 - x^7 / 5040 + ... .   But this isn't a polynomial.

I hope this does more to clear up the situation than it does to confuse it.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-16 10:51

>>47
almost - it's not a solution to any non-zero polynomial with coefficients in Q. but it's essentially with integer coefficients, since you can multiply through by something to get all integers.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-16 10:53

>>60

for those interested, that's the Taylor/Maclaurin series for sinx.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-16 11:06

>>62
We're not.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-16 13:36

>>63
Jeepers, harsh dude

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-16 19:30

>>61


That's obvious, but I'd imagine it'd not be a solution to any finite polynomial with radical co-efficients, but proving that would be presumably harder.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-17 3:03

>>65
If you accept that pi is transcendental, it isn't hard at all. The radicals are a subset of the algebraic numbers, which are (by definition) an algebraically closed field. If there was a polynomial with algebraic number coefficients which had pi as a root, then there are two possibilities:
(1) Pi is an algebraic number; contradiction, as pi is transcendental
(2) The algebraic numbers have a nontrivial algebraic extension; also a contradiction, as they are algebraically closed.

Of course, the hard part is the proof that pi is transcendental; if I recall correctly the idea is to show that i*pi (and therefore pi itself) must be transcendental because e is transcendental and e^(i*pi) = -1 is rational.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-17 3:06

>>66
Ah, one more thing: it has to be shown that the algebraic numbers only contain elements which are in fact algebraic over the rationals. This is necessary for the "algebraic number or transcendental number" dichotomy used in (1).

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-19 23:26

>>66

Yes, it should follow from the Gelfond-Schneider theorem and the transcendentality of e.  But I believe the way Lindemann showed it was by some variation of Liouville's method, by showing that there are rational approximations of pi that are too accurate.

Name: Anonymous 2008-02-19 23:37

>>39
>>40

*facepalm* You mean people with autism.

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