Evolution affects humans too.

I present to you 5 facts.

1: Civilisation started after early homosapiens migrated from Africa into hostile ice age Europe.
2: Adaptions occur more frequently when an animal enters a new environment.
3: By far the most important adaption in recent human evolution is the brain. A neanderthal with a human brain would not be significantly worse or better off than a human.
4: Physical adaptions take longer to evolve than the simple increase in size of the neo-cortex.
5: Humans do have a plethora of physical adaptions to various environments.

Once human beings developed language, both written and oral, a new kind of evolution was able to take place, a kind of 'memetic' evolution. That is, we are now able to preserve the information that the previous generation had gained into the memory of a 'social superorganism' through things like stories, religion, rituals, etc.

It was now no longer necessary to make the same mistakes and relearn the same concepts at the previous generation. We were now able to sustain a prolonged thought process, through the generations. This type of evolution is much faster than  the physical variety and worked hand-in-hand with our increasing brain size.

wow Dawkins is in heaven somehow, the mind boggles

>>1
What's your point?

>>2
Memetic evolution? I don't really think that the mechanics of evolution can be transplated to ideas just like that.

>>4
I don't think "memetic evolution" makes any sense, but ideas and culture themselves do shape evolution indirectly. Do you think that if japanese culture hadn't valued their women for being small, soft and pale, that they would look like they do now?

Anything subject to replication, mutation, and limited resources, will evolve. Memetic evolution makes perfect sense.

>>6
Agreed.  That's why the term "meme" was created.

>>5
Ah, that's something completely different. Moonish women being like that has to do with sexual selection. I suppose there are more complex ways that culture influences evolution but I think in the end it's all just complex forms of sexual selection.

>>6
That's a pretty big claim there. At the very least the unit subject to replication would have to influence the properties of its carrier (the way a gene affects the properties of its organism) but I'm pretty sure it doesn't end there.

Even so, ideas are free to copy (IP law joke goes here), there are no limited resources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme#Memetic_evolution

>>1
#3 is not universally agreed upon; some posit that they may even be smarter than we were.

>>2
Hitler invaded Russia without providing his troops adequate winter support.

>>3
Dawkins is alive last I checked.

>>4,5
It depends on how you define evolution.  If you define it solely as "genetic changes over time", then those statements don't make much sense.  I define them as "gradual, but not completely random changes in statisitcal averages".  By that definition, memes can be considered to "evolve".

>>6,7,8
Agreed.

That's a pretty big claim there. At the very least the unit subject to replication would have to influence the properties of its carrier (the way a gene affects the properties of its organism) but I'm pretty sure it doesn't end there.
The 'unit subject to replication' will evolve, it's pretty much a logical fact (Given imperfect replication and some sort of selective pressure, how can the replicator not evolve?). Memes replicate through communication, and this communication is imperfect, so they mutate. There is neither an infinite number of brains to occupy, nor infinite communication among them, so the resources are limited and a selection pressure arises.

>>10
I think you are talking about Cro Magnon man who had a larger brain capacity than modern humans they were a small branch off homo sapiens stuck in ice age europe with small population. As the climate changed more populous humans from asia minor migrated into europe and interbred. It is estimated that 30% of Scandinavian ancestors were cro magnon and the percentage decreases as indigenous people go from northern europe to the mediteranean.

mediterranean*

>>12
Last I checked, Cro Magnon man = homo sapien =/= branch off homo sapien.  Sauce?

>>14
There are many articles on google.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/earlymansites/a/cro_magnon.htm

Cranial capacities from wiki...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/cranial_capacity

It could be argued that cro magnon had a larger cranial capacity as they had larger bodies, but they were only a few inches taller and their brain capacity was between 6-16% higher than modern humans. Also cro magnon has a reputation for having a large forehead which is where the neo-cortex and language centers are housed in the brain. As the brain grows the skull would expand more around this area compared to modern humans.

From various sources on google human brain capacities lie between 1300 and 1450, whilst cro magnon brain capacities lie between 1400 and 1730.

>>15
Hmm... It seems that terminology is now becoming increasingly ambiguous...  Nevertheless, the 1st article does state that cro magnons were "anatomically modern humans".  Whatever difference there is, is minor.

I find it odd that there would be an evolutionary pressure to have slightly smaller brains.  Odd.

Also, why do colder climates prefer a larger brain as the article suggests?

Now that Civilization shelters the weak and stupid, human evolution will start to diverge as the inferiors breed with more inferiors, and the more intelligent keep to themselves

Eventually, we will split into two.

>>17
Only time will tell...

Corporate police state vs proletarians

>>17
Don't worry, either modern civilisation will collapse or we will advance to develop genetic engineering. Considerring how quickly things change compared to changes in the evolutionary time scale hardly any damage will be done.

>>11
Well, that's what I said, there has to be at least a selective pressure. >>6 didn't mention that, only replication, mutation, and limited resources.

As for limited resources: there are a finite number of brains but
the chance of selection has to be directly related to the fitness of the unit of selection. I don't see how that works with memes: how does a fit meme help its carrier survive?

>>17
Oh lawd, is dat sum devolution fallacy?

>>20
Limited resources implies a selective pressure. In fact, it could be argued that there is no such thing as 'unlimited resources', so the only real requirements for evolution would be replication and mutation.

How does a fit meme help its carrier survive?
How is that relevant for the question of whether memes can evolve? The carriers are only the environment for the memes, like oceans are for fish. And 'fitness' isn't something you define, it is implicit in the mechanics of the environment. Isn't the chance of selection essentially by definition related to the fitness?

>>21
If a meme is analogous to a gene then memes will never evolve. The species that carries the gene evolves. If the carriers (humans) are collectively the environment then what are the organisms & species?
You're right that chance of selection is directly related to fitness, but it must also be related to the memes: the meme itself must have a hand in its own chance to be reproduced.

>>22
Genes do evolve, in a way. It's just that they have evolved to produce and require all sorts of complex machinery (cells, etc), so it's more intuitive to view evolution as only occuring on the level of species.
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene-centered_view_of_evolution
It might make more sense to forget about the meme/gene analogy and simply consider memes as replicators.
Also, memeplexes, not carriers, are the memetic equivalent of species (although, again, don't take the analogy too far).

the meme itself must have a hand in its own chance to be reproduced.
A good joke will 'reproduce' more than a bad joke.

Don't call me gay, but I need some mary jay!

Marijuana MUST be legalized.