If God does not exist, then praying and worship is a waste of time, and therefore an evolutionary disadvantage. However, we observe that most humans are religious. So, logically, God must exist.
Not being able to run faster than many of the other land mammals was an evolutionary disadvantage, therefore humans were wiped out by natural selection.
Oh wait, it doesn't work like that. Just because something may be a disadvantage doesn't mean it has to change for the species to prosper.
Once again, #1, that is a faux argument since it contains NO EVIDENCE at all for this "God" character you envision. Religious feelings aren't proof of anything except that Humans like a good story.
As "Sagan the Wise" once said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In high contrast, the extraordinary claim of the existence of this "God" character actually has ZERO EVIDENCE. It's 2 steps behind on the path of proof.
(This thread's initiation is itself sufficient proof that Americans are morons. I blame public educational institutions, myself.)
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Anonymous2007-06-26 23:56 ID:M7OvyGVb
ITT Advantages and disadvantages of religion.
Summary:
Advantages: Social cohesion.
Disadvantages: Social unrest.
#12, you omitted an extremely important disadvantage for adopting religion:
YOU BELIEVE IN THINGS WHICH AREN'T PROVEN.
That sounds to me like a significant problem in structuring any society since said religious folks are inclined to have imaginary friends, and quite simply are willing to believe in things that aren't there and have no proof. This is why we're in Iraq -- people in the USA are so delusional that they literally can't tell the difference between a Presidential lie and the Middle Eastern truth.
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Anonymous2007-06-27 1:30 ID:1mmoIdVZ
If Gilgamesh does not exist, then praying and worship is a waste of time, and therefore an evolutionary disadvantage. However, we observe that most humans are religious. So, logically, Gilgamesh must exist.
As we all know, the "Jehovah" character is just the Jewish banker who serves the overdeity, the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Gilgamesh must therefore be the towelhead who runs the Quickie Mart in the FSM's neighborhood. They're all deities, but they serve pantheonic purposes.
Actually, belief in god is most definitely an advantage. It however is a social advantage as opposed to an evolutionary one. It's humans belief in god, more importantly our belief in the same god, that caused us to work together so very well and develop civilization. The advent of organized religion took place at the same time as the advent of civilization, which occurred about 40,000 years ago. It started with building temples and then building homes around them (and so on).
Just to note, I'm an atheist. I find the idea of god absurd. But it's a good thing that not everyone does otherwise we wouldn't have civilization.
Personally, I think we're approaching a point where we don't need religion in order to coexist on the friendly civil level that we currently are. You may say it's not so civil, but it's not how uncivil it can be (or even is); it's how civil it CAN be that matters, as any progress is inevitably built upon (and that too is built upon, etc, etc). It's obvious however that many people do still need to believe in this god fellow in order to be good people - sad but true.
Eventually we'll all make sense and live in a godless logical society where science will be unhampered by the madness of religious squabbling. But that's a long way off...
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Anonymous2007-06-27 10:00 ID:k1wzZtc7
More importantly, RedCream throws at least one insult to Americans in every post as an ad hominem argument. It's really kind of cute.
#17, since the American lifestyle is an insult to the entire world by default, a few spoken jabs shouldn't bother you fucking Imperialists, now, will they? Methinks thou doth protest too much. How's that ARM reset going for ya? Are you likin' the increased costs of gas and electricity? How's that savings account lookin' these days? ... you American WANKER.
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Anonymous2007-06-27 18:55 ID:6bxG7F4z
god is a parasite on the human mind, religions latch on there and they grow with it and around it and in it, molding and replacing the brain with what it self rather than what was already there, deluding the truth, the reality, from the host. That is why we must exterminate religions like all other malign parasitic creatures.
People who aren't retarded didn't get ARMs, so most people I know are doing fine. Not really minding the increased cost of fuel, since I've been getting 33mpg + since the early 90s, and our fuel is still cheaper than places like GB, not that I drive much anyway. I can afford to pay my bills, and the changes are fairly negligable. Savings accounts are generally for douchebags who don't understand what inflation is, and my bonds and funds are doing alright.
Also, shitty literary misquotes aren't funny, and they don't make you seem smart.
You don't even understand what you're talking about, do you? What the fuck is the "American lifestyle"? Seriously, I wanna know what retarded ideas someone stuck in your head about more than 300 million people. Is there some magical cohesive American lifestyle I never saw?
#23 (skidoo?), is seems strange that the American lifestyle (marked with huge consumption of irreplaceable resources) doesn't seem to be adopted by the people who are challenged about it. By some strange coincidence, you seem to be one of the few who don't create the huge American trade deficit, who don't own one of the tens of millions of SUVs, who don't have one of the tens of millions of unsustainable mortgages, etc. Congratulations! But the problem remains that America (at 4-5% of the world population) requires consumption of 20% of the world's production. If it's not you, it's YOU as Mr. Average Citizen.
You can't be that stupid. So you're just indulging in propaganda. That you claim to not even understand "the American lifestyle" implies strongly that you are living in a media-drenched denial. What's next out of you? The claim that there's no cohesive culture in America? That statistics in America just don't matter? Etc.
P.S. If you think your fuel is cheaper than what Europe pays, consider the hidden Iraq War Tax. It's about oil, chum, so expenditures on it are therefore part of what you pay.
For better gb2/europe/ and live with your socialist ancestors
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Anonymous2007-06-28 19:11 ID:pjCBqzPC
>>1
False. Not all evolutionary defects are fatal.
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Anonymous2007-06-28 23:13 ID:lbFYW3T/
[7:6] Evolutionary argument for Gilgamesh
1 Name: Anonymous : 2007-06-27 01:30 ID:Cs4tizFj
If Gilgamesh does not exist, then praying and worship is a waste of time, and therefore an evolutionary disadvantage. However, we observe that most humans are religious. So, logically, Gilgamesh must exist.
Discuss.
2 Name: Aaron : 2007-06-27 07:23 ID:E2xKVgNh
I appreciate the mockery here.
3 Name: Anonymous : 2007-06-27 10:32 ID:XvsPwK+p
The question is not whether Gilgamesh exists but whether he has enough swords.
4 Name: RedCream : 2007-06-27 18:17 ID:3NeMWbnE
We Mardukians take GREAT OFFENSE at those who purport to follow Gilgamesh (or "Gillie", as we derisively call him). Gillie was only partially divine. Marduk is 100% godlike. Why worship lesser supremacy?
5 Name: Anonymous : 2007-06-28 04:19 ID:gcLH4sfz >>4
Marduk is fucking awesome. While it all happened too long ago to be certain of anything, what little evidence we do have points out hat basically Babylon conquered the surrounding citystates AND IT JUST SO HAPPENS that at the same time Babylon's pet god strips all the other cities' pet gods of their power to defeat a great evil.
Gives a real good insight on what religion is for.
6 Name: RedCream : 2007-06-28 14:51 ID:GPuwCfVP
#5, you gotta align the religion with the government in all Imperial actions. This is why the religious insurgency in America is so freakin' dangerous to the Republic. We Mardukians knew this a long, loooooong time ago, apparently. Shall we plant hanging gardens out of the niches in the Rotunda? Lo, shall I gaze upon the broad avenues of Neo Babylon, simmering in the summer heat by the Potomac? Marduk! Marduk! Marduk!
What accounts for the majority of my dissimilarity to retarded people is that I'm not retarded. Those are people who try to live outside of their means. I'm not saying a lot of Americans don't make stupid decisions, but it's not "the American lifestyle".
"If it's not you, it's YOU as Mr. Average Citizen."
I love the whole "omgz liek ur a part of it" argument, because it applies just about as much to anyone living in any country who does business or has investments in America. Lemme just go move out into the woods and live off of tree bark.
What the fuck propaganda are you talking about? If it's related to that "media-drenched denial" I've got, you might want to elaborate. Where the hell do you get these ideas from? Are you pulling them out of your ass, or someone elses?
What statistics? And don't even bother to mention them if you're not going to cite it (from a reputable and available source). Do you understand that there are a lot of social, economic, racial, geographical, and educational differences? Oh no, we're totally all the same.
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mamushi_72_sai2007-06-29 0:50 ID:mD5xaJ/z
>>26
I am american.
I hate america
I drive an elictric car
I allow 3 electric devices on at once. lights/heater/AC
its not the north US thats the problem many people here are good. the real problem is the south exspecially texas where people only care about being a hardcore redneck
«I'm not saying a lot of Americans don't make stupid decisions»
... then contradicted yourself immediately:
«but it's not "the American lifestyle"»
Exactly how many above "lots" would be required before you considered the activities normal? "Lotsa lots"? What a joke!
Stupidity IS the American lifestyle. If millions of people are normalizing stupid behavior by their very numbers, then it becomes normal by definition. I'm sure you don't like that, but there it is in all its glorious self-evidency.
«Lemme just go move out into the woods and live off of tree bark.»
You don't have to go completely arboreal or native in order to avoid supporting evil. You failed the "reasonable effort" test.
«What the fuck propaganda are you talking about?»
Are you blind? Deaf? TV, newspapers and the radio belch out Imperial propaganda in megaton-sized daily servings. American media tells you Americans what wonderful people you are, while you bankrupt, pollute and bomb. The mainstream media feeds you all such falsehoods you end up thinking things which are entirely orthogonal to reality.
«Where the hell do you get these ideas from?»
Thinking critically and reading from many sources, not just getting HappyNews™ from the TV. You might want to pick up a book every so often, especially ones that don't assume the West is the pinnacle of Human achievement. How about David Korten's "When Corporations Rule the World", or David Cay Johnston's "Perfectly Legal", or Kristina Borjesson's "Into the Buzzsaw"? How about anything political by Chomsky?
Since Chomsky is one of the top 10 quoted living intellectuals, is that "reputable" enough for you? Or are you thinking instead that "reputable" only means a source that Rush Limbaugh would agree with? What does "reputable" mean to you, anyway?
«What statistics?»
Credit card debt. Housing equity shares. Voter turnout. The number of people who still think Saddam Hussein had something to do with 911. Savings rate. M3. The rise of financing for homes throughout the entire 20th Century. Trade deficit. Budget deficits and overall US government debt. All the falsehoods buried in the so-called CPI and unemployment numbers. Etc.
Are you really this dense, or are you working at it?
You sound to me like some early 20s Young Republican* or Young Democrat* who literally doesn't understand any socio-economic topic since you refuse to even contemplate any level of evil that your society indulges in. Am I right?
* These folks have no essential difference when it comes to the only two things which matter in governance, those being (1) foreign relations and (2) domestic economy.
#31, if you really think that "rednecks" are the sole basis for America's descent into outright Fascism, then I strongly urge you to turn off NPR and read the Congressional Record for a while, where you'll see your beloved Neo-Liberals splash their Blue Blood all over their betrayal of the American Republic.
The people in the north are NOT good. They may not indulge in the outrages found in "Clownifornia" or "Flunkida", but with "Taxachusetts" or "Oheilo" there's plenty of messed-up government and local culture to go around. The US Constitution is not welcome in ANY state in general, including most US cities.
I don't personally watch much TV, and what I do watch is science/history/comedy, not really news, which I tend to get online from rss feeds and occasional browsing of BBC, USAToday, the Economist, CNN, MSNBC, WSJ, Google News, and occasionally the Spiegel. Most of what I've seen over the past few years has been critical of.
When you say "American lifestyle." I think of all the differences I've seen in people here, all the disagreement, the different cultures, ideals, values all aggregated even just within my city. There's a range in my backyard of gangs families making 20k/year 10 minutes down the road from families making 200k/year. They don't live ANYTHING alike. America is NOT coherent. Nationwide statistics don't give you the breakup by region or even by counties within states. There's huge differences over small distances. We're not one giant similar mass, we're a collective of polar opposites. That's what I see, and what I want you to understand. You're talking about America like it's just one thing, I see it as it is, a union of smaller things.
When I mentioned things being "reputable" I was talking about sources for your statistics you mentioned but didn't elaborate on.
I'm not pretending our economy didn't take a big hit, but it hasn't been failing horribly in the past few years, and related to what I said above, the way it affects people varies incredibly even just down the street.
You've classified me incorrectly, as I feel you have most Americans. I don't agree with our current foreign policy, or economic policy, or social policy (which you either left out or included in domestic economy?) I think both major parties have lost their way, and the line between them is too blurred in most areas.
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4tran2007-06-30 6:02 ID:WUgb9E/t
Assume (for the sake of argument): being religious is a genetic trait.
Those who are pious recieve the blessings of the Catholic church.
Those who refuse to believe are burned at the stake.
Therefore, being religious was an adaptation to the environment. Oops! None of this requires a God.
>>12
Unless you consider communism a religion, religion is not necessary to prevent social unrest (maybe in the past, but certainly not anymore).
>>34
Yes, America is very diverse. Your statements only prove that the distribution of American lifestyles has a very large standard deviation. RedCream is referring to the statistical average of all these lifestyles. The tree hugging hippie does not compensate for the family with 6 SUVs.
RedCream: where are you residing, Britain? You sometimes use the 1st person plural, and sometimes it sounds like you're in America.
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Anonymous2007-06-30 7:29 ID:aHgJ+MZz
Posting in an Epic Thread.
The tree hugging hippie does not compensate for the family with 6 SUVs.
Truth.
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Anonymous2007-06-30 10:00 ID:gKFKy8HT
>>35 Those who are pious recieve the blessings of the Catholic church. Those who refuse to believe are burned at the stake. Therefore, being religious was an adaptation to the environment.
You are assuming that the trait of being religious evolved in a religious society. It's a circular argument.
Any person who rules with an iron fist can easily make a non religious society religious. After that, it can keep it religious by weeding out the resistors.
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Anonymous2007-07-06 0:43 ID:C0jYTf9r
#8 is still my favorite.
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Anonymous2007-07-06 10:16 ID:qq8dVFiq
>>1
Please take these threads to the Science & Math forums, because nobody reads that anyway
Why is it a disadvantage? Arguably, religion provided the cohesion that enabled cultures to form. The collective will of a society is preserved and propagated through ritual so that the group may endure even as individuals fall. That's actually a pretty huge advantage. It's similar to the power of the collective of Internet users; we are stronger together. We are held together by memes or whatever, and other groups are held together by rain dances or group prayer or whatever else they do.
>>49
Bullshit. The religious like to pretend religion is necessary for social cohesion, but it's pretty obvious any social cohesion it provides is based on an us-versus-them mentality and fear (exact proportions varying based on the religion itself), and the most peaceful and cohesive modern societies are also the least religious.
Religion is just superstition that got out of hand, and superstition is a result of our highly developed pattern-seeking abilities misfiring and seeing patterns where there is only coincidence.
All religious rituals are fundamentally cargo cult rituals, made both more absurd and more virulent through memetic evolution, all of which is only fundamentally advantageous to the religious memeplex itself.
It sure is funny to believe in something for which there's ZERO evidence, and there SHOULD BE a lot of evidence to support the existence of such a thing. The rational conclusion is inescapable: It doesn't fucking exist.
Those who insist on claiming some big Jew is sitting in the sky, has to AT LEAST provide some photographic evidence of that. You'd think that a huge Jew sitting in the sky would produce SOME visual indication upon photographic plates. Galaxies are pretty fucking large things, too, and we don't have any trouble imaging THEM.
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Anonymous2008-04-17 18:16
God is the ultimate troll.
Do you really think he's going to prove his existence to us Earthlings? That would end the limitless LULZ he's getting up there watching us.
>>52
Conclusions follow from evidence. Your assertion is being made without evidence. That's why it's an INVALID assertion. Find some evidence for this "god" and then get back to us, lulz or not.
P.S. "Up there"? UP motherfucking WHERE, chum?
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Anonymous2008-04-17 22:31
By "up there" I meant the Bering Strait. Everyone knows that's where God lives. DUH!
Assertions are made without evidence ALL THE TIME.
One just has to look at your previous posts on any number of subjects, for EVIDENCE OF THIS ASSERTION.
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Anonymous2008-04-19 12:20
IMHO,the evolutionary advantage of dogmatic belief is that it prevents you from going bat-shit crazy without any principles and an illusionary feel of purpose for you and everything around you.
And that belief could be anything-religion,science,magic cupcakes.
After all,you Believe that science explains the world perfectly,and base that on facts and evidence.Others believe that religion explains the world and base that on a book,which produces a sense of awe in the reader.
>>1
The social networks formed by a shared faith are the evolutionary advantage. Just because the belief in god has minor utility, it doesn't then follow that god exists.