Circumcision is immoral

If you heard of someone cutting off their daugther's vaginal lips without their consent, how would you feel? Think about it before you get your son circumcised. Thank you.

well no fucking shit

try telling that to the christian population of america

america sucks

Christian idiots ftl

Please don't mutilate my body until I can make decisions for myself

Or speak for that matter

Hey, I apparently screamed like a banshee when I was circumcised at birth, and my parents have regretted it ever since.

But damn, I'm pretty glad it happened. And I'm much, much, much, much, much more glad I didn't have to do it for myself when I was 18. I'd rather not have any slight memory of it.

In conclusion - I'm not convinced there is really anything wrong with it. It has no lasting psychological effects like a rape or beating would, so don't compare it to those. And you can't say that people aren't allowed to give their child an instant of pain if they think it will make their future lives easier and more enjoyable (the whole "locker room" point, which although does not apply to everyone or even most people, it is a factor parents may want to avoid)

That being said, I'm not going to circumcise my child, and I hope the trend goes away. But just like it's ok to punish children, within reason, so that they can learn lessons and live a better life, it's hard to really argue that parents can't circumcise their kids at birth so they can have an easier life or be more comfortable with themselves (or avoid the risk of them being uncomfortable). Exp. when there is no conclusive study that shows the mutilation has any negative effect except for the temporary pain, which will be forgotten.

uh, wtf are you talking about? Feeling more comfortable with themselves?

They're not going to FEEL uncomfortable with themselves just because their penis looks slightly different. Being circumsized doesn't magically make your life easier.

80-90% of the modern world does NOT practice circumcision. You SHOULDN'T feel comfortable that PART OF YOUR PENIS WAS CHOPPED OFF as a child.

>>6
It's far more astheticly pleasing. I'm neaither a jew, nor an American. I'm swiss, in our actual civilized country men are usually circumsized. The rest of europe isn't civilized, don't be mad fool. "Modern world" lol, germany. Lol, Denmark. Lol, Sweden. You get my point.

The countries in europe that do not practice circumcision are all shit holes. Germans are all fat, Danish are all lazy, and useless, and the swedes are beyond worthless. Don't even get me started on the poor, nigger-class italians and portugal.

You're filth. America, although having its problems, at least is more civilized than europe minus the some parts of the UK and of course the non-swiss-german parts of Switzerland.

Faggot.

>>7
Proof that circumcision negatively influences the development of the brain.

>>8

Actually, proof that you're a douchewad. And I'm not >>7 .

>>9
Who the fuck said you were? Thanks for nothing, fuckcrank.

>>8
Wow, with an argument like that, how could you be wrong about ANYTHING?
not >>7


>>6
Honestly, I am amazed at your failed logic. Just because a billion people in China don't practice circumcision, that doesn't make it any easier for a kid growing up where it is largly practiced. And when such a kid is growing up and the only penises he is likely to see all look different from his (porn, whatever), then of course it will have the possibility of making him insecure. You can't even debate that. And if a parent wants to keep their child from having to deal with that, let them.

This is what is wrong with the rest of the world. They all blindly follow their ideals and think other cultures should conform to them, rather than accepting that other cultures do things differently. I'm not saying America is perfect on that respect, but when the single most important thing to a country's history and beliefs is the idea of 'freedom', then of course kids are going to be exposed to that idea from a young age. Which is why most Americans are actually very understanding, respectful, thoughtful people.

I'm not saying you are a retarded sheep. I really have no idea, I was speaking generally. But until I actually see some logical arguments from you, I have no reason to believe you actually know what the hell you are talking about.

Circumcision started in America during the masturbation hysteria of the Victorian Era, when a few American doctors circumcised boys to punish them for masturbating. Victorian doctors knew very well that circumcision denudes, desensitizes, and disables the penis. Nevertheless, they were soon claiming that circumcision cured epilepsy, convulsions, paralysis, elephantiasis, tuberculosis, eczema, bed-wetting, hip-joint disease, fecal incontinence, rectal prolapse, wet dreams, hernia, headaches, nervousness, hysteria, poor eyesight, idiocy, mental retardation, and insanity.4

       In fact, no procedure in the history of medicine has been claimed to cure and prevent more diseases than circumcision. As late as the 1970s, leading American medical textbooks still advocated routine circumcision as a way to prevent masturbation.5 The antisexual motivations behind an operation that entails cutting off part of the penis are obvious.

>>11
"Which is why most Americans are actually very understanding, respectful, thoughtful people."

Fucking LOL. I guess that's why they cut off a part of their sons penis just because its "tradition". Burning witches was a tradition. Slaves were a tradition. Oh wait. America has always been behind the rest of the world when it comes to social and cultural issues.

>>11
"This is what is wrong with the rest of the world. They all blindly follow their ideals and think other cultures should conform to them, rather than accepting that other cultures do things differently."

When only Americans, Jews and Muslims have a tradition so barbaric and savage, you know something is very wrong.

>>14
>>13
Will not respond to because you have failed to actually propose an argument, and have instead chosen to spout off ideas you apparently can't back up with reason or explanation.

>>12
"Burning witches was a tradition. Slaves were a tradition. Oh wait. America has always been behind the rest of the world when it comes to social and cultural issues"

This has partially convinced me you are a troll. Simply because it has to be close to the most incorrect thing I've ever read on this forum.

I'm not saying circumcision is good. I'm not saying it was created for good reasons. I'm not saying I don't want the tradition to disappear, and that the rest of the world should practice it.

What I AM saying is that the tradition is here, and now that it is you can't claim that following along with it is barbaric. That's total B.S.
You just can't say that it's terrible for a parent to try to do the best for their kid, and to try to make sure they feel like they fit in with society. That's only a parent trying to look out for their child's best interests.

Now, you could argue that they are wrong. You could argue that America places too much emphasis on fitting in and not being different, and circumcision is a sad result of that. You could argue that the sooner that the tradition is gone, the better. Hell, I'd argue for each one of those points, and respect anyone else who did as well.

But it looks like most people in this thread can't actually form unbiased arguments, and can only fall back on words like barbaric and savage. You know who else does this? George Bush. Which is why most of America hates him.

"When your arguments are just as rational as those of George Bush, you know something is very wrong."

>>15
"What I AM saying is that the tradition is here, and now that it is you can't claim that following along with it is barbaric."

So you think burning people because they were thought to be witches wasn't barbaric, just cos it was a tradition that was there.

So you think slavery wasn't savage just becuase it was a tradition that was there?

How retarded do you have to be to think circumcision was created for "good" reasons?

"Hey, we don't feel like bathing. Also, it pisses me off that people can have fun and masturbate. We hsould try and stop that."

>>16
"So you think burning people because they were thought to be witches wasn't barbaric"
burning witches = act out of hate. Hate = barbaric (in my book)
circumcision != act out of hate. No correlation, failed logic
(also, as a side note, America had many degrees less of the 'witch burning' then many European countries. By a very, very large amount.)

"So you think slavery wasn't savage just becuase it was a tradition that was there?"
What makes slavery different than circumcision is that circumcision is
1) done when the baby is young and there will be no long lasting negative effects/memories
2) done in an attempt to make the child's life easier, while slavery is done in an attempt to make one's own life easier.
3) done with the justification that a parent has the right to make decisions for their child if they think they are for the best (totally rational). Slavery is done with the justification that we can own a person's life just because they look different (totally false)

Slavery is totally different from circumcision.


>>17
no one is this thread is saying it was created for good reasons...

Lol. How stupid are you?

Foreskin is there to protect and moisten the glans. Why would you remove something that is SUPPOSED to be there? The glans is not NATURALLY exposed.

And don't even give me the shit about it being cleaner. Learn 2 bathe.

Sorry, Nature > Humanity when it comes to keeping the body in order.

>>18
I read number 15 wrong.

Disregard my post, I suck cocks :(

>>18
1)Your first statement only works if you are making the assertion that all barbaric acts are performed with hate as the motive.

2)
   1) Other than loss of sensation in the head of the penis and greater risk of infection
   2) How does lacking a foreskin make life easier?
   3) See above.

there was a study released recently that showed circumsised people have a lower chance of contracting HIV

>>22
I'm guessing it showed a simple correlation instead of actual causation.

Also, you could maybe try using a condom if you really want to have sex with someone who's HIV positive.

>>21

1) Yes, that is actually the assertion I am making. True, I supposed an act can also be barabric in some sense if it is primitive. But it's going to be hard to argue that doing something because you think it will make your kid's life easier is primitive. Besides, one could argue that ANY belief structure different than there own is primitive. I think it is best to avoid that, and just look at the actual advantages and disadvantages.

2)
Well, I have already argued this point and if you have failed to pick up on them by now, I'm not sure any amount of repetition will help. But I'll play along

First, you don't have to clean it as often, it pretty much keeps itself clean, so there is less risk of infections (after circumcision heals, of course). And while this is a minor point, it's pretty useful when you go on a 3 month camping expedition and don't have that extra bother on your list. But I agree this is the minor of the two points.

Second, and like I've said several times, having a penis that looks like those of everyone else can make a large difference in confidence. Expecially when it comes to dating girls and such in a circumcision society. So, at least in places where circumcision is largly practiced, it DOES make some aspects of life considerably easier, at least for many people. This is the big one, and because of it I understand perfectly why a parent might want circumcise their child.

>>22

no there wasn't. infact the US has a higher rate of HIV than Europe.


>>24
"First, you don't have to clean it as often, it pretty much keeps itself clean"

That is wrong and exactly why this kind of brainwashing is making this barbaric tradition survive.

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss.html

Read it. You might say it's biased, but you can't say that when every fact it reports is referenced to a medical journal listed at the bottom of the article.

I was circumsized at like 18 days, to stop an infection. My parents didn't want to, but I think everyone's happier like this than with a pain in the ass infection(s) to watch over.

Don't really know what you're talking about otherwise. From what i've read, it seems like wanking would be more painful WITH a foreskin.


And yar, I masturbate fine thx lol

How the fuck is it an argument for circumcision to "make you more comfortable" around your peers? How many cocks do you look at when you're a kid? Jesus christ. I sure as shit never compared cocks. What the fuck is wrong with you idiots?

What the fuck is wrong with you idiots?
They're Americans.

lol troll lol

>>27
don't argue with the troll, let the thread die

>>27
Because people are fucking morons and think that every single child is spending their whole life bathing in public showers or at the gym, or something.

But honestly where the fuck do they even make you shower after gym now? The most I had to do was change into some shorts and a light T-shirt beforehand and change out of them afterwards. There was no penises.

>>6

1 out of every 6 male in the world is circumcised

that means 500 million people are circumcised WHAT

>>14

OH NO CUTTING OFF A FLAP OF SKIN THAT LOOKS LIKE A SOCK ON THE COCK HOW BARBARIC

honestly prove to me that circumcision drastically reduces pleasure

ive seen no real information on here whatsoever, all i've seen are self-righteous, ultra-uptight eurotrash who think cutting off a flap of skin on your dick is equatable to impalling a baby on a horse cock

>>25

Thank fucking god someone posted something like that

As much as I disagree with circumcision now, I'm sick and fucking tired of the "self-righteous uptight faggy eurotrash" as someone just said.

You faggots hate circumcision to the point where you act as if people who are circumcised are less human.

Same goes for Americans, a primitive medical practice doesn't = the whole country's population being a bunch of barbaric animals.

You can sit back and scream at americans over the inernet while massive birthrate drops and third-world muslim immigrants continually fuck your countries in the ass.

"You can sit back and scream at americans over the inernet"

Or they can troll /sci/ and make a bunch of Americans get emotional over nothing. That works too.

>>35

ISLAM WILL DOMINATE THE WORLD LOL

>>32
>prove to me that circumcision drastically reduces pleasure

It drastically reduces pleasure the same way cutting off a finger or two drastically reduces your ability to hold onto shit and use your hand correctly.

>>37

ISLAM WILL DOMINATE THE WORLD LOL

>>38
WORLD DOMINATES ISLAM NOW LOL

4chansucks! FACEPUNCH HACKERS!!!!!!!!!

We GONNA HAX U

>>39
I LOL'd.

>>32
Go look up the anatomy of an uncirc'd penis. Look at all the high density nerve center-things all over the foreskin. Not to mention that having a circ'd penis makes the head an external organ, and there for dries it out, which decreases pleasure.

I'm circ'd. I hate it. I'm regrowing my foreskin. I can't wait to have it back.

Have a nice day.

>>24
How does it keep itself clean? Microscopic tentacles that reach out and deflect incoming germs?
What's this, penis conformity? Do they line you up naked regularly where you live to point and laugh at the uncircumsized? Or are you just grasping at straws?
>>32
I'm an American.

Circumcision helps prevent diseases retards. There are several diseases existant that form under the foreskin and circumcision prevents that.

>>43
You don't just go cutting shit off because its susceptible to diseases. Having foreskin is an advantage, or it wouldn't have evolved.

>>43
You know, you're supposed to BATHE, right? Like, once a day, 7 times a week, etc etc? That would prevent any problems from not being cut.

>>43
No it doesn't. The foreskin helps PREVENT infections.

>>44

LOL APPENDIX LOL
LOL TONSILS LOL
LOL TAILBONE LOL
LOL FLOATING RIB LOL
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

guys if youre circumcised just jack off into a sock ok

IT WORKS JUST AS WELL

>>44
Enjoy your gangrene.

"Millions of years of evolution have fashioned the human body into a model of refinement, elegance, and efficiency, with every part having a function and purpose."

This is the same thing Creationists say, except replacing Evolution with God. 

The human body is full of vestigial organs: organs that have no purpose in our life, but have at one point in time. (appendix, wisdom teeth, body hair, etc)  That is not to say that the foreskin is a vestigial organ. 

YOU GUYS ARE FAGGOTS NEEDS MORE CUT COCKS

>>47
Can you prove that losing those is more advantageous?

>>49
Go look up 'susceptible'.

>>50
full of vestigial organs
Growing vestigial organs is wasted energy, so evolution tends to make them go away. For a such an organ to still remain, it would have to have become useless relatively recently. One has to be very certain there are no uses before claiming an organ is vestigial.

..for your part you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants ... every male among you must be circumcised. You must be circumcised. You shall cut off the flesh of your foreskin, and that will be the symbol of the covenant between us. Throughout all your generations every male shall be circumcised at the age of eight days ... (Gen 17:10-12)

 At that time Yahweh said to Joshua, "Make yourself flint knives and squat down and circumcise the people of Israel for a second time." So Joshua made flint knives and circumcised the people of Israel on the hill of foreskins (Gibeath-haaraloth). (Josh 5:2-3)

>>52
>> For a such an organ to still remain, it would have to have become useless relatively recently. One has to be very certain there are no uses before claiming an organ is vestigial.

I was following you till then...

Relative to what?

Also-- the appendix has NO function now. It's like the pelvis bone of a whale. It does nothing. NOTHING. It's vestigial.

>>54
Relative to speed of evolution for the species. Which is something that cannot be exactly quantified.

About the appendix; I'm amazed that you can be so sure. What is your reasoning? I realize that we have so far been unable to discover any obvious function of it, and that its significance seems minimal at the most, but that doesn't translate to it being absolutely useless.

>>55

Currently, the function of the appendix, if any, remains controversial in the field of human physiology. The wall of the appendix contains lymphatic tissue that may be part of the immune system for making antibodies. There have been cases of people who have been found, usually on laparoscopy or laparotomy, to have a congenital absence of their appendix. There have been no reports of impaired immune or gastrointestinal function in these people.

Another explanation is that the appendix is a remnant of an earlier function, with no current purpose. Note, however, that the pineal gland, which only recently (around 1960) was found to produce important chemicals like melatonin, was once considered a vestigial remnant, as well.

A third explanation is the human appendix may serve a purpose in a diet including occasional raw meat. Specifically, it may allow bacteria useful in the digestion of raw meat to be retained, rather than flushed from the system during long intervals between raw meat meals.[2] Thus, those lacking an appendix may be less able to digest raw meat than others. However, as raw meat is no longer a significant portion of most people's diets, this difference would be difficult to detect.

From wikipedia.

It seems like we could argue about this for a while, and neither of us (supposedly) having any real backround in physiology, it would end inconclusivly.

From what I've seen, though, it does nothing but caused problems.

Hey, it killed Hudini(sp).

I don't know why this thread is even alive still.

Cutting off a piece of your cock reduces the amount of nerve endings and lowers the amount of pleasure you get from sex and masturbation.

Honestly how hard is that to understand?

Prove god exists to justify circumcision.

K go!

Hey I like not having a wrapper around my skin flute.

>>59
You think people who were born missing limbs think the same way too?

"Eh, don't need no "arms" weighing me down!"

Besides, if you were never cut in the first place, unless there were some sort of problem, you'd never think "Jeeze, I wish I could cut this part of my penis off"

>>57
Could it be that those who are circumcised are so accustomed to it that they treat it as "normal"? Why fucking bitch about something that never was?

Or are you trying to imply a newborn somehow feels sexual pleasure (rofl)?

>>61 Actually, they probably can.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/masturbation scroll down to the part about masturbation in pre-puberty.

IT'S ON WIKIPEDIA, DON'T ARGUE.

You people have been trolling 4chan with Circumcision lately.  Knock it off.

lately?