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To you lisp lovers

Name: Cudder !!RD3keS5C4KiAlK2 2013-06-29 0:06

What has lisp ever done for reducing the memory footprint of a computer program? The answer is nothing, nothing at all. This is all the work of C.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-02 11:53

>>79
WOW! Cudder just shown deep knowledge on PHP and the nuances of web-development.

I think Cudder is really a creative transgender woman working in designing webpages, while C++/x86 faggory is just a hobby for "her".

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-02 11:59

>>81
"She" could as well be designing these annoying "google doodles" and what other positions big corporation, like google, have for totally useless transgender fags, Google and Microsoft had to hire because of "gender diversity" political correctness.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-02 12:01

>>81
That also explains Cudder's IE6 demoscene tendencies. A lot of web coding have ate "her" brain.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-02 12:28

>>79
Recursion via a function call is NOT the same as a loop
Actually, assembly loop is a recursion.
In fact any (label label) pair juxtapostion serves as a self-reference (A -> A), linking label to itself.

fundamentally, athere is no difference.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-02 14:11

>>79
Recursion via a function call is NOT the same as a loop
muh moot points

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-02 17:49

>>75
But if you ask me, needing an optimisation for it to be possible to do anything useful with the language at all is a big FAIL.
True, but what are the other possibilities? You can give up functional-style iteration or add an explicit tail-recursion construct like Clojure's recur. The latter clutters the code and the former is unsuitable in some cases, altough I do think so-called ``purely functional programming'' is inane and insane.

>>79
Recursion via a function call is NOT the same as a loop, because that's not how real machines work. Just because some theorist with his head in the clouds (and possibly high on something) showed how they are in theory doesn't mean it's true in practice.
Tail-call recursion is just one of the many ways of looping. HIBT?

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-02 18:33

>>75
You smug lisp weenies always bring up TCO like it's the ultimate solution to everything
I did no such thing. I simply used TCO as an example of how not everything that looks like a function call in Lisp necessary translates to a function call in machine code. If that were the case then TCO wouldn't be possible.

needing an optimisation for it to be possible to do anything useful with the language at all is a big FAIL.
It's a pretty trivial optimization. Just write a while loop that evaluates the expression until it's self-evaluating and you're done. Inlining is simple too. Just expand and reduce the expression until it's simple as possible. That can easily been done at compile time.

How hard is it to implement TCO and inline in C? The fact that C compilers hardly implement the former and can't even guarantee the latter should be a big giveaway.

But, I digress. Yes, C beats Lisp regarding raw speed. So? Who gives a shit? The guy writing for embedded hardware, sure. The guy writing the OS calls running constantly, sure. But if you care about nanoseconds at runtime in userland, then you're crazy. If you enjoy writing low-level code, good for you. If Lispers enjoy writing high-level code, good for them. Why do you care?

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-02 19:20

>>87
Raw speed is essentially the only thing that C has going for it. Acting like it's the only thing that matters is like giving the Best Picture Oscar to the shortest movie.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-02 19:28

Is lisp more secure than C?

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-02 19:31

>>89
Yes.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-02 19:40

>>89
Yes. Lisp OS would have used Lambdas in place of syscalls and capabilities. Moreover, there would have been no unprotected memory accesses.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-02 19:48

>>88
C/C++ still requires MMU for its speed. Had such MMU be provided say for Common Lisp, it would have been a lot faster than C/C++ due to microkernel design and array bound checking in hardware.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-02 19:50

>>92
For example, http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~gupta/teaching/260-08/Papers/TR181.pdf

and C/C++ still have to do array-bound-checking, else you get unreliable code.

Name: >>56 2013-07-02 22:10

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-02 22:35

Name: 94 2013-07-02 23:03

>>95
LOL

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-03 0:30

>>77
That's pretty clever, CUDDER. But if you push it too far you end up with dead objects allocated on the stack.

Name: Cudder !MhMRSATORI!fR8duoqGZdD/iE5 2013-07-03 8:42

>>81-83
The other way around... I wouldn't consider myself a "web developer" at all, nor do I want to be associated with them. I just write web pages and scripts because I need to, not by choice. ("semantic web" and CSS evangelism, hating IE beyond reason, and superfluous use of JS and bloaty "frameworks" --- that's a "web developer". Not me.)

>>84-86
Recursion in the REAL WORLD is different. You can use it to REPEAT things like a loop, but that doesn't mean you should.

>>87-88
Yes, C beats Lisp regarding raw speed.
And overall efficiency, because you need far less memory.

>>92,93
C isn't for idiots who can't do simple maths. If you can't show what ranges an array index can take on or where a pointer can point, then either your code or your brain is buggy.

>>94,95
All unnecessarily complex solutions with more overhead than just stopping users from reaching outside the language interpreter.

THE OP IS NOT ME.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-03 8:59

Anything with a smaller footprint than Java is good enough. And Haskell has a smaller footprint than Java. As for the lisp shit — well, who cares about it anyway.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-03 9:05

Cudder are you one of those people who write for loops for graph traversal and such?

Name: 94 2013-07-03 10:33

nor do I want to be associated with them. I just write web pages and scripts because I need to, not by choice. ("semantic web" and CSS evangelism, hating IE beyond reason, and superfluous use of JS and bloaty "frameworks" --- that's a "web developer". Not me.)
I have to agree there.

All unnecessarily complex solutions with more overhead than just stopping users from reaching outside the language interpreter.
I was talking about what webhost use these days, that it does not matter what language you use on the system, the user will still be restricted unless a request is made otherwise, and the environment is fucking isolated. The reason PHP was even invented was to purposely screw small businesses with the pipe dream that there is language made ``just for HTML to make it less complex and cumbersome'', and slow down the market enough to make mini AIs in the already standard environments and automate most clients' requests. Read the history if you do not believe me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PHP#History
Heck, even Rasmus Lerdorf does what we do here at work:
He rewrote these scripts in C for performance reasons, extending them to add the ability to work with web forms and to communicate with databases and called this implementation "Personal Home Page/Forms Interpreter" or PHP/FI. PHP/FI could be used to build simple, dynamic web applications.

Name: 94 2013-07-03 10:47

BTW, we know you your are not OP. And >>30 seemed to have answered his bait question:
On the other hand, the solution to >>1'rant was made in Chicken (Scheme):
http://wiki.call-cc.org/chicken-projects/egg-index-4.html#web


Anyways I guess this conversation derailed long enough. Night

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-03 13:17

>>98
hating IE beyond reason
Imagine writing a perfect C program, using every available feature of the ANSI C standard, then releasing it to the world and having 90% of users tell you it sucks and that you're a shitty programmer because your code didn't compile with one shitty compiler that just happens to be the most popular one in the world...that's IE.

Name: Cudder !MhMRSATORI!fR8duoqGZdD/iE5 2013-07-04 2:56

>>100
Of course. Trees are recursive, graphs are not.

>>103
using every available feature of the ANSI C standard
That would be an incredibly stupid thing to do. If you manage to do such a thing your code would likely be excessively  bloated and inefficient, not to mention obfuscated (you did say "every available feature", so I'll assume this means digraphs, trigraphs, 63-character-long identifiers, and everything else no regular C programmer ever cares about). The same applies to C++, but even more so.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-04 4:14

Firefox is better than IE.

also enjoy no privacy or security

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-04 6:09

>>105
toe jam yummy yummy

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-04 11:29

Safari is the superior browser. WebKit power without Google's botnet.

Too bad winfags and linuxfags can't enjoy its superiority.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-04 11:39

le /g/ muh facebook when le rebgit

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-04 17:24

>>107
WebKit power without Google's botnet.
Oh, you mean like Uzbl, Midori, Luakit, Surf, and every other browser J. Random Hacker threw together in his spare time?

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-04 17:39

>>109
Don't forget xombrero, the epitome of faggotry.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-04 18:23

>>107
Google's botnet
Looks like you're lost, kid.

https://boards.4chan.org/g/

Also, trips.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-04 19:20

>>107
E/g/in post, /g/roski. Would repost on le /g/reddit.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-04 19:35

Linux Considered Harmful

Linux's success may indeed be the single strongest argument for my thesis: The excitement generated by a clone of a decades-old operating system demonstrates the void that the systems software research community has failed to fill. -- Rob Pike, original developer of Unix and author of The Unix Programming Environment

Everything in Linux sucks. For example, when I close "Nautilus" file manager window, it doesnt terminate program, but puts it in background. Why? To leak more CPU and memory! The xfce4-menu-plug already ate 140 megabytes of memory, and it's just a toolbar! When I try to `kill -s KILL gnome-screensaver`, it blanks whole screen and only reboot helps. Gedit (a simple notepad) takes whooping 60 megabytes to edit a few lines of text and it loads about 10 seconds! Opening a directory in file browser sometimes takes minutes, due to its file type detection feature (it scans and makes thumbnail of every file). Thousands of thumbnails stored inside ~/.thumbnails slow down image viewer startup by about 20 seconds. Invoking `cat` on a binary file damages terminal font and sometimes crashes bash.

Also, file type detection is extremely glitchy and detects unrelated files as PCX files. It also ignores file extension. So if it detects JPEG file as PCX, it will open it as PCX and crash viewer, despite that it has JPG extension.

Command Line interface is horrible at best! Sometimes a simple typo, like "cp *", can easily mess your files. The only way to be safe with Linux is to do backup every few hours.

Regarding bad design decisions in Linux: there is no sandbox and every program you run has access to all files inside you /home folder and can delete/steal them. Moreover every program gets internet access by default, making you machine a potential botnet node. That is a truly bad design decision, which could have been easily avoided by dropping unmanaged memory access or capability based security with array-bound checking protection, similar to one specified in http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~gupta/teaching/260-08/Papers/TR181.pdf

Unauthorized program should't be able to access filesystem or internet. Every program should be limited in access only to files and directories provided by the user, while internet access is given only to programs installed under apps.interned_allowed directory. There should be a way to reject privileges given to file/directory handles, so accessing them would produce exception. Users shouldn't see outside of their home directory and all file-sharing should be explicit. User password should be too kept under's home directory, so it could be changed without much fuzz with /etc/passwd.

Super user rights can't be managed precisely and every program requiring them has to be given full super-user account (setuid/setgid). No on/off switches, so a program wanting direct access to SVGA frame buffer also gets access to network connection and whole hard drive content.

POSIX API is horrible and includes a lot of undefined behavior. A change to memcpy implementation once broke tons of Linux code that depended on undefined behavior. But Worse is Better, of course (http://www.cygwin.com/ml/glibc-bugs/2011-02/msg00090.html). Production Linux code almost completely consists of ugly hacks, like following:
__pid_t __cdecl sub_813C7B8()
{
  __pid_t result; // eax@1
  char command; // [sp+18h] [bp-200h]@2

  result = fork();
  if ( !result )
  {
    sprintf(&command, "/bin/bash -c \"sleep 5; kill -9 %d\" &> /dev/null &", PID);
    system(&command);
    sprintf(&command, "/bin/bash -c \"sleep 8; kill -9 %d\" &> /dev/null &", PID);
    system(&command);
    sprintf(&command, "/bin/bash -c \"sleep 10; kill -9 %d\" &> /dev/null &", PID);
    result = system(&command);
  }
  return result;
}

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-15 18:52

still better than windows and mac

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-15 19:56

>>114
At least Windows doesn't get in my way when I'm trying to find an exploit.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-15 20:01

What? I'll take a BSD such as OS X over that loonix crap any day.

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-15 20:14

C is very memory-efficien��v��<<<<�q��a<<

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-15 20:22

[quote]quality programming[/quote]
quality =/= low memory footprint

quality is expressing an idea in the most elegant way

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-15 20:32

You are a retard to use os x over any other BSD (it isn't exactly a bsd either)

Name: Anonymous 2013-07-15 20:43

if this post ends in 20 the poster above me is a poopie face

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