Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 13:00
>>2
Not that just uses the preprocessor
Your editor requires using the full range of keyboard keys, which is unusable for coding and editing at the same time.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 13:10
>>5
They were trained to use VIM and their brain circuits can't handle using something else, since it would be painful to switch the interface suddenly. You're probably ask "Why they picked vim in the first place?"
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 13:15
I can only assume, the people who picked vim had
1.bad mice
2.low skills with mice-based editing
3.penchant for original unix text interface
4.lack of decent editors on the platform, in that case using something ancient like vi to edit file is justified somewhat.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 13:17
I have set my mouse to very high sensitivity, and can move blocks of texts faster than you could even reach your first keyboard key.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 13:26
Also, as a former starcraft player i would beat any of you at speed editing any text file, even using only keyboard so telling me "i'm bad with keyboard" won't help.
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 13:29
former starcraft player
You act as though that's a special title, no one cares gtfo frozenvoid
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 13:30
So if a preference for keyboard-based text editors implies "low mouse skills," wouldn't it be logical to assume that you prefer mice due to low keyboard skills?
You need a keyboard to write code. You don't need a mouse. Keyboards are optimized for two hands. So why use one? If a mouse is such an enhancement, why not use two? Why not have pedal mice for your feet so you can have four mice? The answer is because one mouse is barely necessary as is, hence, keyboard-based text editors are superior.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 13:32
>>10
Thats not really a title, it means that i know how to use keyboard shortcuts/hotkeys very fast(since Starcraft forces using keyboard hotkeys every second for normal gameplay)
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 13:35
>>11
i write text with keyboard, and edit it with mouse. There is a separation of state.
>>13
You can use mouse macros in e m @ c s as well, you wouldn't know this though since you're blinded by your own cloud of ignorance.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 13:38
>>14
About 150, though since i have played any starcraft probably a bit lower now.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 13:39
>>15
Mouse gestures are not macros, Emacs has 90% of functions unlocked by entering a sequence of keys
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 13:42
>>17
Let me state this for you once again : you can use mouse macros for drifting in emacs.
Once again your blinded by your own cloud of ignorance. You do know that you can redefine all the function mappings too..
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 13:44
>>9
If you're such a fast, efficient coder, why are you the only person in the world who feels the need to define a preprocessor macro for something so trivial as int argc, char **argv? You clearly at some point decided that it was too tedious to type. That, to me, is not the sign of a ULTIMATE SPEED CODER. It's the sign of a sloppy, lazy, poor coder. And the fact that you are non-hesitant to declare your coding skills superior to anonymous people you know nothing about is a sign of insecurity, implying that at some conscious or unconscious level you acknowledge your own inferiority.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 13:45
>>18
You ask me to
1.install bloatware that is emacs
2.remap all macros to (limited) set of mouse gestures(instead of using menus like every decent editor)
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 13:46
>>19
Ultimate speed coder doesn't mean ultimate retard monkey typing everything, if i have saved 10 milliseconds, i optimized my workflow and would go to any lengths to optimize the last millisecond.
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 13:47
>>20
E m a c s has menu support as well. Time to get with the times losethos.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 13:57
also about that argv stuff:
d STDSTART ;main(s4 argc,s1**argv){;
d STDEND ;return 0;};
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 13:59
The above is the most recent void.h material, also fixes complaints about using void(since it now abstracted out to macros)
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 15:09
>>8
The problem with using the mouse is not that you can't be efficient with it once your hand is on the mouse but the constant switching between mouse and keyboard.
You can easily make a couple keystrokes in just the time it takes you to grab the mouse and that may be enough for what you needed the mouse for in the first place if you're using vim or emacs.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 15:16
>>25
describe how would you do the following and how error-prone is your method
Select Region with Mouse
Left-Click
Copy
Mouse Scroll up
Click between two specific words
Left-Click
Paste
And time it in milleseconds
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 15:32
something like this:
53 G (or /searchterm enter)
v
10 j
y
21 G 5 e or (/searchterm enter)
p
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 15:33
>>26
If I wanted to copy seven lines starting with line 42 and paste it between the first or second words at line 21:
:42<enter>7yy:21<enter>wP
Like a boss.
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 15:39
>>26
Also consider using vim or emacs doesn't mean you can't use the mouse when it makes sense. It only means you don't have to when it doesn't.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 15:43
>>27,28
How you calculate line/word numbers from scratch? You just see a word, and instantly think "That will be 7 lines up, 4 words right, replace" or you mentally estimate distances and calculate the final numbers? With mouse i don't have to bother with such nuances, i have it operating visually as a single, safe process which i cannot mistype.
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 15:49
>>30
You can configure your editor to display line numbers.
If you're moving between some specific lines all the times you can also use marks, which is even more comfortable.
m followed by a letter sets a mark
' followed by the same letter brings you to the line of that mark
` and letter to the exact position of the mark
'' brings you to the line before the last jump
`` to the exact position before the last jump
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 15:49
:42<enter>7yy:21<enter>wP
that would take about 4-5 seconds(since you need to type correct numbers/words), with mouse its ~1 second max(copypasting alot of random code will show this).
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 15:51
Or you could just use L, M or H to get close to where you need to go and then adjust with some h,j,k,l,w,e,b ...
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 15:54
>>31
I have line numbers on, i wouldn't be able to debug anything effectively without them, but i wouldn't instantly think of word in line 11972 as "line 11972",so it would take a bit to notice the number, mentally copy it, now see line 12083 and where on that line i need to insert the code,
calculate the word length(a 8th word, but in C code it not obvious), now finally i can start the insert by typing the entire command now that i know of all variables.
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 15:58
>>32'
>4-5 seconds
>implying it takes that long to do 13 key strokes when using two hands
>implying it takes less time to take your second hand off the keyboard and then move your mouse to the line followed by a click then dragging it over the region wanted and then having to click to the new location and then right click followed by paste
>2011
>still doens't use a editor that shows line numbers
seriously are you living in the 80s still frozenvoid?
So what you're trying to tell us is you have the memory of a 2 year old and can't remember a simple sequence of numbers while coding?
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 16:01
>>34
That's just one example anyway and it's biased towards mouse usage.
What if you just need to move one line up? Or to the start of the file?
What if you want to center the screen? Is moving your hand to the mouse, scrolling and moving your hand back faster than hitting z twice?
What if you want to quickly write xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?
(30 i x esc in vim)
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 16:03
>>35
It would be very fast if you edit 100 line files where you memorize every line and word position.
You would instantly know what variables for your vim command are required.
Obviously this approach will fail on bigger files and require memorizing the entire text before editing a single word.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 16:06
>>36
No. I have the memory it just used for better things like editing and remembering the code, not about what line numbers i edit and replace(which are superfluous details)
>>4 just uses the preprocessor
Right. Which is infinitely more lame than actual macros.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 16:16
In fact, if i change some lines often it possible they shift their word positions and line numbers so often it would be futile to remember them.
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 16:17
>>32 :42<enter>7yy:21<enter>wP that would take about 4-5 seconds
Oh. Sorry. I thought you said that you type ~150 WPM. Not that you were too brain-damaged to type 13 characters in 5 seconds. But I guess we knew that already.
For those of us who are not mentally impaired, it's take significantly less time.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 16:18
>>40
preprocessor increases my productivity
using arcane macro commands instead of instant mouse/menu clicks decreases it several orders of magnitude
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 16:19
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 16:24
>>42
You are mistaking two things
1.i can type the string sequence :42<enter>7yy:21<enter>wP very fast if i know it
2.i cannot instantly construct such a command, it would be requiring to know the entire command set, line numbers and word positions
>>43
Impressive admission of abject failure. I commend you. Most people aren't man enough to own up to it like that.
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 16:28
>>45 why are you ignoring >>37
Obviously moving your arm is the bottleneck and if the actual task is very small you lose a lot of time.
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 16:29
fuck threads like these, all it is is dealing with frozenvoids giant ego. you can't say nothing in this board with that cunt popping up acting butthurt. that's the problem with namefags really... they just can't manage to discuss ideas with a clear head... all that ego, that attachment to your ideas...
frozenvoid let it go man! i called you out on your IDE and people joined the fun then someone starts a V|M thread and you automatically think it's about you (it's not) i mean seriously... you need to take it easy man, what are you even doing on /prog/ wouldn't you feel better in the demoscene?
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 16:32
>That's just one example anyway and it's biased towards mouse usage.
What if you just need to move one line up? Mouse Scroll,Up/Down Arrow
Or to the start of the file?[/b] Mouse Scroll, End, Page Down[/b]
What if you want to center the screen? Explain your concept of "center the screen".
Is moving your hand to the mouse, scrolling and moving your hand back faster than hitting z twice?
What if you want to quickly write xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx?i would simply hold X and it would fill at very fast repeat rate: if more require i can copy paste any amount
(30 i x esc in vim)
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 16:33
>>43
We've all witnessed your use of the preprocessor. It's infamous in its stupidity.
I personally have scripts for producing boilerplate code. For instance, if I create some arbitrary type and find that I need a linked list to support that type, I'll run a script I wrote to create it, complete with its own psuedonamespace and all the necessary accessors.
Your idea of automated boilerplate is renaming main to STDSTART. You've clearly have never written a real application, and probably couldn't to save your life.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 16:39
>>50
I don't write enterprise code. I don't write "real applications", "scalable solutions","solid code" and would not provide tech support
You can go back to stackoverflow and discuss reenergizing design patterns and how outsourcing yourself is not a viable strategy.
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 16:39
>>49
Beginning of file in vim: gg
Line up in vim: k
Centering means vertically adjusting the screen so that the cursor is in the middle.
As for the xxx.. i said 30 not "many". If you just hold down the button you can hardly count them.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 16:44
>>52
>Centering means vertically adjusting the screen so that the cursor is in the middle.
Clicking in the middle is now an arcane command which i have to memorize?
>i said 30 not "many"
You can erase them with backspace if you see extra or copy 10's of X (i certainly don't remember in 10 years i've had to make such a silly task, while copy pasting is done every minute)
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 16:52
Clicking in the middle is now an arcane command which i have to memorize? >>12
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 16:53
[code]#include "void.h"
STDSTART printf("F R O Z E N V O I D QUALITY HELLO WORLD !!"); STDEND[code]
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 16:54
>>54
Thats doesn't mean i want to apply Starcraft hotkeys to my editors(which would be counter-productive)
since i already allocated all the hotkeys to my settings and i use mouse for casual editing.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 16:58
Consider: I can enter a
1. command
2.or just click once
Which would interrupt my flow more:
1. stopping text editing to switch to command mode and entering command then return to text editing
2. pausing text editing while selecting a target with mouse,clicking/release, returning to text editing
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 17:00
Obviously you don't need vim for casual editing.
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 17:01
>>57
Moving my hand away from the keyboard interrupts my workflow more than anything.
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 17:02
Also command mode is vim specific, not good editor specific. (emacs)
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 17:03
>>58
Casual means i don't need to use complexity while editing.
Complex means i need to stop "creativity flow of thought" and think about editing process(such as what replaces where)
Mouse make the process casual,seamless and least demanding.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 17:06
>>59
My mouse is always near the bottom left keys of number pad, i don't understand how far you mean?
Moving right hand from keyboard to mouse: Middle of Keyboard <>Edge is not very far.
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 17:49
I don't write enterprise code. I don't write "real applications", "scalable solutions","solid code" and would not provide tech support
so wht do you do?
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 18:10
>>63
nothing, i doubt he even knows how to code. Probably just some hipster that claims to be cool by claiming he is a codester when i bet all he does is copy paste other peoples work and claims it as his own.
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-29 18:52
Dear Fake FV: You have done an excellent job on these folks. I commend you for it.
Everyone else in this thread, spoilers: if you accept copy/paste as a significant portion of your code editing needs I have some very bad news for you: It's terminal.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 20:33
If all the argument was "the mouse/keyboard" switching is too slow
i use mouse to separate editing operations from keyboard input
i can as easily select text with Shift/Ctrl-C/move UP/Down arrow Ctrl-V(which is far easier than any macros in vim) but visually selecting/pasting is
more convenient,and it separates representation of editing from content being edited(so i can write code near-concurrently to mouse edits)
>>70 which is far easier than any macros in
Obviously you don't even know it, because that's ridiculous.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 21:04
>>71
Really thats illustrate the problem well since in the same class
Shift/Up++/Ctrl-C/Down++/Ctrl-V is the simplest solution (except menu/mouseclicks)
which is far better than any command combo that needs variables(such as line numbers,word positions) and exact syntax to be successfully run
>>72
You do not know this editor you decry at all. Thus your criticism is meaningless. Here is the equivalent, if you don't like numbering motions: v e* y. If you want to include trailing spaces, use w instead of e.
Enjoy.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 21:17
>>73
how e* specifies the region i select, and where the keys to enter command mode?
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 21:19
The final version would be something like
CMDMODE SEL COPY E*?? PASTE
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 21:20
However E* does not know how much of region i want to copy, this has to be either
1.enter as number
2.manually chosen with cursor(which Ctrl-C Ctrl-V already does)
>>74
Just keep hitting e/j/k/l/h/w whatever motion. Just like arrow keys. Or v$y for the end of the line, or whatever.
Seriously, this editor hasn't stuck around so long because it is part of some meme or something. It is ridiculously good. For you, if you're a mouser, then you can think of reaching for the mouse as hitting escape. (Of course most users make jk or capslock escape, but it doesn't really matter.)
The tutor is really good too.
Not even trolling, you should spend a week using it.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 21:51
>>77
I don't need it since all my editing needs are answered by standard hotkeys and menus.
I don't need a macro language to use a single edit menu.
I don't want to switch to disguised command console everytime i need to edit.
Simply I want to write text, and edit it with stable, intuitive interface(mouseclicks/menus) which does NOT distract from writing.
I would use hotkey once per like 5-10 minutes and mouse every 2-3 minutes.
VIM is built for constant editing pattern, and not writing with editing, its mini command processor programming parallel with the writing process.
>>78 is built for constant editing pattern, and not writing with editing
You don't know this because you don't know it.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 22:06
>>79
I know this because you have to dedicate thinking time to writing macros into the console,which means you spend alot of time thinking about editing and meta-editing(writing editing macros), rather than writing real content.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 22:10
Its like Linux in miniature, the process is more important than results of the process.
The Linux Perfect Process is like an infinite command line which executes to give a segfault.
>>80
As far as I can tell, you know nothing about any topic which you post about, ever. Why would this be an exception?
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-29 22:23
>>82
There is only two options
1.you spend alot of time editing:using vim macros,editing the macros,entering commands,
2.you spend little time editing: mostly writing, occasionally entering vim commands
#1 is the "constant editing pattern", which is counter-productive to flow, but easily answered by "powerful" command console
#2 is answered by Notepad2 much better, does not require learning any macro languages and has intuitive keyboard bindings.
>>83
You are retarded. First you bring up how awesome ctrl+c and ctrl+v are with arrow keys. When the response is that you are wasting keystrokes, you switch to some bullshit about how much time you spend writing and not editing.
Basically, you are full of shit and have no argument. How could you, when you don't even know what you're talking about?
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-30 0:24
>>83
Please continue posting FrozenVoid, you're only showing us your true identify which is that you're a shitty person who doesn't know how to program at all and has hard time multitasker, probably autistic as well and you base all your arguments with a cloud of ignorance and try to use logic that would only apply back when vi and emacs were just getting started.
Please stop posting you ignorant fuck, no one wants you here. Go back to /g/ i'm sure you'll be welcomed there.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-30 1:38
>>84
Its like this:
you have a linux system but configuring and editing is considered superior and preferable to actually using it.
Like this in editors, there is line with editors which you configure and edit to infinity(VIM) and editors which allow you to do productive work with minimum hassle(notepad2).
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-30 1:44
>>85
At the time of invention of vi/emacs there we no mices, menus, and every keystrokes=command was powerful and intuitive for machine which needed a while to process and display the results(the visual paradigm wasn't developed then) so making every keystroke of the editor/tape /punch card a valuable commodity it prematurely limited itself to making users hostage to its own command system(and since it was good enough, even with mistyped commands and constant errors of novice users, it stuck in unix userland.).
>>1-1000
Why do you care about text editors?
Would vim, notepad2, kate or anything else make my programs better?
PS: Oh I see, my opinion is bullshit because I am a dumb programmer. I need to think a lot before writing anything.
PS2: About mouses: grabbing small pieces of text is just quick and comfortable enough. But when I try to select a block larger than my screen, it becomes hell.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-30 2:11
>>88
I use shift and drag it with mouse usually, or shift and arrow keys. Either way is not requiring thinking about what i'm doing(the process) and do the operation instantly(so mentally i'm still writing code and can return anytime)
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-30 2:27
Summarizing:
Since the Flow is not interrupted bu editing process in notepad-Type editors it makes a huge productivity boost.
Using standard editing hotkeys ctrl-v/ctrl-c/shift/Ctrl-f is much better than relying on single editor API which works only inside it(unlike very edit control in windows).
I can code a bit better editor, with more optimized menus for the extra 10-20% speed in specific mouse ops(several menu choices simplified into one right-click/select), but that would not be justified as learning and adapting to the extra menu choices(so they work subconsciously, without interrupting the Flow), which are available through another layer of menus which are not as often used as to not even justify adding them in the first place.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-30 2:45
And for the ultimate argument against the layers-of-editing approach, if VIM is so powerful with its macro/command system, why are you still use "primitive" typing to enter macros/commands, you should use VIM to compose the text which would compose the text which would compose the text which would become macro/command executed by VIM.
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-30 4:17
>>91 use VIM to compose the text which would compose the text which would compose the text which would become macro/command executed by VIM
I don't get it
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-30 4:32
>>92
Using VIM inside command mode. i.e. at the point you enter commands/macros
Name:
Anonymous2011-11-30 4:34
In vim you have your shell at your finger tips. Just start with a bang and you can easily include output from another program or pipe line into your text, or you can simply run a program for its effect such as make. You have a current directory and opening and writing files is relative to where you are.
Name:
F r o z e n V o i d !!mJCwdV5J0Xy2A212011-11-30 4:35
The concept of second order #define will help
#define VIM_MACRO VIM_TEXT
#define VIM_MACRO_LEVEL2 VIM_MACRO
#define VIM_MACRO_LEVEL3 VIM_MACRO_LEVEL2
You're using only the first layer
>>86 you have a linux system but configuring and editing is considered superior and preferable to actually using it.
So not only do you not know this editor, you don't know that operating system.