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Quad-Tree

Name: Anonymous 2011-11-14 20:12

I've been searching around for the logic behind QuadTrees, and trying to implement my own QuadTree algorithm.  What's the basic logic behind QuadTrees?

Name: Anonymous 2011-11-18 0:11

>>38
See >>39,40, I'm the same poster.

Name: Anonymous 2011-11-18 0:26

>>41
That may be true for this particular Universe/multiverse. The class of multiverse that I'm talking about is a bit wider, read the linked paper for a (classical) finitist version or http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9704009 / http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0646 for a more general version (actually, it can be shown that the 2 versions cannot be really distinguished by a finite self-aware substructure (such as ourselves) and one recursively generates the other). In what way is it wider? In your case, you're looking at a structure which allows varying particular constants or individual states, while in my case, I'm looking at the variance of rules/metarules describing the structure in the same way you're looking at the variance of constants/states. I have no reason to assume a particular universal law is the only possible thing.
Either way, there is a way of experimentally testing my hypothesis (read "Permutation City" for an example), but it's outside the realm of popperian scientific falsifiability even if it can be experienced from the first person (by one individual or any number of individuals, however experimenter = experiment and there can not be a third party observer that doesn't participate in the experiment itself, thus this makes it unfalsifiable). It's also the most probable (class of) hypothesis that one can reach given various formalizations of Occam's Razor (such as Solomonoff induction), but as with most inductive processes, some will see it as begging the question - the only way to know is to perform the  experiment by yourself when the particular technology exists (same requirements as testing if computationalism is a valid philosophy of mind).

Name: Anonymous 2011-11-18 1:31

>>42
I've read the abstracts, going to read the full papers, but I believe I agree with them. Although I'm the poster who strongly believes that mathematics is emergent from computation, and so it doesn't really exist (we've discussed this matter before). So Max Tegmark's ``The Mathematical Universe'' should ideally be retitled.

Incidentally, I happened to have watched Max's recent talk at the last Singularity Summit, and he appears to have come around to a more strict computational viewpoint himself since writing that. Unfortunately, his talk is mostly popular physics and philosophy for the layman, so it's not really worth the bother.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GctnYAYcMhI

(Pan-)computationalism is obviously the only valid philosophy of mind to anyone who has worked in computation. Drawing that conclusion might be premature, but the evidence is all around us, and the evidence to the contrary is fallacious at best. It's merely the normals who don't know of the fundamentals of how computers work, and therefore lack the necessary mindset and language in understanding the universe itself who are unable to come to terms with the one true philoshophy.

Maybe it's possible to shield a volume of our Universe from its eventual death so that it may survive into or direct/influence the birth of another or continuation of our own by harvesting external Universes. That would allow macroscopic computational processes to continue.

But until we understand the nature of what lies beyond computation within our universe looks strongly as if it will come to a screeching halt.

In other words, our ``paper tape'' got cut short.

Name: Anonymous 2011-11-18 2:20

>>43
he appears to have come around to a more strict computational viewpoint himself
Yes, in the latest version of his paper, CUH(Computational Universe Hypothesis) is the one he thinks is most likely, which is no wonder given the strange mess that happens when you look at all those uncountable ordinals in most infinitary set theories (and then you have independence results of various axioms, which makes things even more complicated). One particular problem is that even if we find ourselves a potential hypercomputational oracle (such as doing funky things around black holes), there is no way to know for sure wether we truly have oursleves a hypercomputational oracle (for we are only capable of arithmetic/computation). It's also possible that traces of complex-enough computations would give us the illusion of a hypercomputational oracle, without actually having one.

Some thoughts on wether physics based on uncountable entities makes sense or not (beyond computation):
http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0411418 http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0404335
Some thoughts on how QM (MWI-like) appears too naturally when considering a computational multiverse and why there may be no need to assume more than that:
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/CC&Q.pdf
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0001020

Some interesting thought experiments on how CUH could (appear to) fail:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/55e/a_potential_problem_with_using_solomonoff/
http://lesswrong.com/lw/4iy/does_solomonoff_always_win/

Name: Anonymous 2011-11-18 2:49

>>44
Thanks for the links.

Name: Anonymous 2011-11-18 8:00

>>44
Thank you.

Name: Anonymous 2011-11-18 8:26

>>42
Either way, there is a way of experimentally testing my hypothesis (read "Permutation City" for an example) [..] the only way to know is to perform the  experiment by yourself when the particular technology exists

Forgive me for being blunt, but the particular technology already exists, it's called "soaped rope", if you catch my drift. Applying razors to wrists (remember, along the road, not across the street!) or jumping off a sufficiently high building or other landmark should work too.

I'm curious to hear any justification to the idea that doing basically the same thing but in a tad fancier way could possibly result in a different outcome.

Name: Anonymous 2011-11-18 9:53

>>47
Suicide would just give highly unreliable results. You could of course perform quantum suicide experiments (if you think MWI is true), but since you are supported by your brain and body, it's likely that the most probable outcome would be just having you survive in unusual ways or merely somehow end up in worlds where you chose not to kill yourself (also 'natural' worlds such as our own might be a lot more numerous than any 'artificial'-like worlds as given in the example in that novel).

Do you think that a digital abstraction created by scanning one's brain and accurattely rebuilding a model of it (and the body, and the environment) would give a conscious substructure, a substrate independent mind(SIM)? If computationalism is true, then it would be as conscious as you are now. If you think it's false, you would die during the scanning process and never attain consciousness.

I don't think this is a trivial question. The only way to know if the abstraction is conscious, is to experience it (be the abstraction). If I didn't acknowledge my own consciousness internally, I would not think humans (or any other being implementing a brain in any way) could be conscious (or possibly, it would reduce to something as trivial as having internal state in a particular reflective manner). I don't believe in continuity of consciousness as an intrinsic property, so I don't treat the procedure as anything different from someone going under anesthesia, assuming that the scanning/conversion process is done as accurately as possible.

The particular experiment described in Permutation City is more or less the same kind as the one that first tests if a computational abstraction would be conscious (the only one that could have any right to claim that would be the abstraction, it cannot be tested in any scientific manner, except of course, in making sure the brain/body abstraction behaves as close as possible as the original brain/body). In that experiment, the substrate independent mind (and its model-of-body/environment + OS) is placed in a self-contained mathematical/computational object whose time evolution can be described entirely by its initial state and future possible states. In that book, the reason for possibility of existence of uncomputed states is explained by first showing that consciousness is not spatially or temporally located, and not represented as anything, except that particular abstraction. A similar (but considerably more rigorous) thought experiment is shown in Marchal's papers (I've linked one before), or if you want it in a simpler form: http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list/msg/e422b8cef00b3aa6 .
The main difference between 'Dust Theory' (PC) and UDA (see link above) is that 'Dust Theory' depends on our particular physical universe existing (so states could be found anywhere in it), while UDA shows that this requirement is unnecessary (instead a form of Arithmetical Realism (basically CUH) ends up being used after it's shown to be a much simpler alternative). I should probably add that the model used in PC for the structure of their universe is not really ideal and there are some much better choices that could have been used (although probably wouldn't have made as entertaining fiction if there's really no problems to solve; I could elaborate on what I would propose to be used instead, but I think I'd be getting way offtopic by going into that here).

To sum it up, a conscious substructure existing as a computational abstraction (for example running on a real computer/hardware in this world) means computationalism is true. If computationalism is true, CUH is also very likely true (as shown by UDA). If CUH is true, any such self-contained world would also exist and self-aware substructures within it would exist independently of our universe, yet by performing such an experiment, you could have such a substructure which thinks it came from this particular universe (of course, including whatever was in the new universe's initial state). I should also note that there are various potential failure modes (the one described in PC would be highly improbable, but as quantum mechanical-like worlds are likely to be observed, violation of the laws that were set in the initial state are likely to occur, at least as long as one's consciousness is still supported by the physics(Anthropic Principle); there are some ways one could mitigate these risks and end up in a stable world by the way the actual universe's laws are selected, but this is again outside the scope of this post...).
You might also ask yourself why would such a SIM find itself in the particular universe you've coded for? Maybe there's no reason for this and they would find themselves (different copies) in different universes, as long as they support the SIM's existence (Anthropic Principle). On the other hand, there are various ways to minimize the risk of ending up in an universe where you don't want to exist. It may be that our consciousness is so stable because in our current (MWI) world, that the number of copies of oneself increases exponentially, or maybe it has to do with our universe being of low complexity and thus more probable to experience (both views have their proponents).

Either way, if you don't believe computationalism can work, you think mind uploading is equivalent to killing yourself and copies won't be conscious. If you think they can, then there is a good chance the experiment in "Permutation City" would work.

Name: >>48 2011-11-18 10:03

I should have probably added that there are also some strange things one can think of. If an experiment like that succeeds, it might be worth considering that someone could run AIXItl to predict the laws of our universe (using Solomonoff induction) and then proceed to simulate it and try to extract self-aware substructures such as ourselves from it. This could for example result in weird continuations after your ``soaped rope'' experiment. Or it may be that this wouldn't be too likely as particular data that was given as input would be Kolmogorov random (or merely not resulting in the input being our universe's initial state + laws-of-physics + local address (particular state, regarded as quantum randomness here)).

As strange as all these conclusions are (independence, all the implications of CUH), the uncomputable variant seems even less likely and more far-fetched (and still not solving anything in particular, just trying to hide the 'white rabbit'(see linked papers) behind untractable problems).

Assuming computationalism is false does even more violence to my intuitions than its wild implications do.

Either way, we can philosophize about these unfalsifiable ideas all we want, but we may one day get to see if we were right (cannot find out if wrong ;_;) about them when/if SIM becomes feasible in our future. Your idea seem does not seem too useful, except maybe to test MWI as it lacks any fine control about future states (while the experiment in PC allows one a lot more fine control, but not as much as described in the novel - actually preventing ending in undesirable universes takes a bit of clever design work and modelling, at least if you assume UD or CUH).

Name: VIPPER 2011-11-18 14:39

What the hell am i reading?

Name: Anonymous 2011-11-19 1:10

>>50
[b]MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY![b]
I had to recheck the post dates to make sure this wasn't shit from 4 years ago The Golden Era being dug up.

Name: Anonymous 2011-11-20 22:13

>>48-49
Why do you sage your posts, crazy motherfucker? I have to dig to find them again after only 24 hours.

Name: Anonymous 2011-11-20 22:28

>>52
I find no need to bump the thread if it's already on the front page.

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