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ARM vs x86

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 5:04

What software absolutely needs the x86 performance from the user and programmer  perspective? Why can't we switch to ARM even if it was ~4 times slower but much cheaper?

Name: Cudder !MhMRSATORI!FBeUS42x4uM+kgp 2011-10-21 5:08

Two words: backwards compatibility

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 5:10

>>2
That's only one word, huh.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 5:12

>>3
Thats 23 bytes or 6 words.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 5:55

>>1
Speaking in absolute terms, only software with realtime requirements that cannot be satisfied by the slower system. In more practical terms, any software you don't want to waste time waiting on.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 7:00

>>5
From user perspective anything, even a 1Mhz game with no pause will be real-time, but at video encoding will be noticeable delays.
ARM still has performance gap for concrete number crunching, but not for interactive stuff like games, which can be optimized to run even on Raspberry Pi.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 7:16

What software absolutely needs Worse is Better from the user and programmer  perspective? Why can't we switch to Lisp Machines even if it was ~4 times less retarded but much convenient?

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 7:40

I endorse this thread as a former Acorn Archimedes and Risc PC owner

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 8:18

>>7
LISP machines were for slow LISP code, ARM are for everything.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 8:22

>>9
ARM supports type tags and GC?

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 8:27

>>10
Explain why type tags can't be done with software efficiently?

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 8:32

>>11
Explain why 3d rendering can't be done with software efficiently?

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 8:34

>>12
Actually, it can. All good recent graphics cards only use hardware for bytecode interpretation and texture interpolation.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 8:37

>>13
Ok. Implement following type-dispatcher, so it'll execute at the speed of C/C++ int addition

(defun add-fixnums (A B)
  (let* ((hash (or (shl (get-tag A) tag-bits) (get-tag B)))
         (h (aref handlers hash)))
    (funcall h A B)))

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 8:40

>>12
type tags are much simpler. 3D rendering is huge pipeline of memory intensive vector code,transforms over arrays,etc.
It can be done with tight SSE code but the result is of entry-level video card.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 8:41

>>6
What the fuck are you on about and what the fuck does it have to do with the post you were replying to? If a real-time system can't satisfy its time constraints it does not work. The fact that they managed to get a 12-year old game running on some vaporware toy is irrelevant.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 8:42

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 8:44

>>17
Your answer shows that you're out of viable arguments. I will interpret it as your surrender.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 8:45

>>15
Ok. Division is simple. Implement it in software, using only NAND operator.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 8:47

>>16
Realtime is just a software capability, a 1Mhz cpu can be realtime with proper software.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 8:55

>>17
Why printf(typeof(A)) doesnt work?

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 8:55

>>21
doesnt work
If it ain't Lisp, it's crap.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 9:00

>>22
you mena?
If it's crap, it's Lisp.
ya i thawt so

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 9:03

>>23
gb2g

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 9:18

>>14

mine is faster, ````````````faggo''''''''''''


typedef enum {
  A,
  B,
  C,
  D,
  E,
  F } type_tag;

struct A {
  type_tag type;
  ...
};

struct B {
  type_tag type;
  ...
};

struct C {
  type_tag type;
  ...
};

struct D {
  type_tag type;
  ...
};

struct E {
  type_tag type;
  ...
};

struct F {
  type_tag type;
  ...
};






typedef void (*bin_op) (type_tag*, type_tag*, void*);

// not supported
void bin_op_ns(type_tag*, type_tag*, void* ) {
  assert(0);
}

static bin_op add_handlers[][] = {
// A        B         C         D          E          F
{  add_A_A, add_A_B, add_A_C , bin_op_ns, bin_op_ns, add_A_F}, // A
{  add_B_A, add_B_B, add_B_C , add_B_D,   bin_op_ns, bin_op_ns}, // B
{  add_C_A, add_C_B, add_C_C , bin_op_ns, bin_op_ns, bin_op_ns}, // C
{  bin_op_ns, add_D_B, bin_op_ns, add_D_D, bin_op_ns, bin_op_ns}, // D
{  bin_op_ns, bin_op_ns, bin_op_ns, bin_op_ns, add_E_E, add_E_F}, // E
{  add_F_A, bin_op_ns, bin_op_ns, bin_op_ns, add_F_E, add_F_F} }; // F

void add(type_tag* arg1, type_tag* arg2, void* ret ) {
  add_handlers[*arg1][*arg2](arg1, arg2, ret);
}

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 9:23

Why does every thread in this board get overrun with lispers

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 9:25

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 9:42

>>26
They feel guilty for using such a shitty language so they take it out on other people.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 9:52

>>20
Again, what's the fucking relevance? If the 1MHz processor is too slow to complete the realtime task within the set time constraints, it's too slow and you must pick a faster one.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 10:06

>>25
Is it faster than raw assembly?

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 10:07

>>30
Is assembly faster than handcoded AMD microcode?

Name: not >>1-29 2011-10-21 10:08

>>26
There's just enough of us here. You don't see most of us asking why there are so many C users (or insert other popular language here). Lisp is popular enough on this board, so you have enough Lisp-related discussion, at the same time there seem to be haters because they are looking at code they don't understand and that frustrates them.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 10:12

>>31
Yep! It isnt, cause C/C++ is a static pile of shit.

Name: LISP HATER 2011-10-21 10:16

>>32
I understand Lisp code just fine, and I often find myself rewriting it in     Blub    to prove how unreadable the Lisp version is.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 10:19

>>32


(lisp (has many legitimate) issues)
      (funcall #'and (quirks that make it)
                     (kindof ,@difficult to 'use ,(and read)))
      (I can 't speak for everyone)
      but
      (I think many people here have probably tried lisp)
      (only to realize that many of it 's features)
      (are implemented more elegantly in other ,@more mainstream and (funcall #'popular languages))
      (lisp is nice but it is very old ,@and maybe (CALL-NEXT-METHOD) doesn 't seem to be very well thoughtout as whole)
      (It seems more like an experimental language ,@made when current modern techniques where experimental))

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 10:28

>>35
Comma not inside backquote.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 10:30

>>36

I also messed up the parenthesis on the first line.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 10:36

>>35
You seem to be talking about Common Lisp (and CLOS), whose purpose was to unify the most popular Lisps at time, and did it fairly well*.
Saying that all Lisps are the same is like saying that C is the same as C++ is the same as ObjC is the same as D. They share common traits and syntax, but they're completely different languages.
The various quotes are not that difficult to understand. ' marks literal data, ` is just like ', but parts of it can be evaluated with unquotes: ,expr simply evaluates expr at runtime, and its result is added to the list, ,@ is just like ,, but the result must be a list whose elements are spliced inside the quasiquoted list. #' denotes a procedure used in a ``simple value'' context in CL.

* Hell, it may be a frankenstein monster, but there were so many Lisps out there at that time that it's a miracle that it didn't become like C++, which just tried to extend C with class-based OOP.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 10:44

>>38

Yeah, that was just about my experiences with common lisp. I like using scheme myself, although I prefer lisp's defmacro.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 10:51

>>38
Hell, it may be a frankenstein monster, but there were so many Lisps out there at that time that it's a miracle that it didn't become like C++, which just tried to extend C with class-based OOP.
Common Lisp is weird but I think it's a great language and most of its potential mistakes can be forgiven thanks to macros. IMO the only valid reasons to reject Common Lisp would be its size and garbage collection.
For Bjarne's defense, he extended C nearly alone, while Common Lisp was designed by a team of EXPERT PROGRAMMERS.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 11:03

>>40
IMO the only valid reasons to reject Common Lisp would be its size and garbage collection.
Alright, fuck off and die.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 11:08

>>41
Why are you attacking me? I just said Common Lisp was a great language and tried to find not-obviously-wrong arguments against it!

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 11:11

>>42
Garbage collection is not obviously wrong.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 11:13

>>40
No doubt about that, and I don't want to start a CL macro flame war. CL's size problem is probably about the amount of unneeded abstractions in the standard (i.e., how many times do you happen to use a prog? Why both dolist and map?), but that's again to maintain backwards compatibility. Another problem is the naming convention, and sometimes argument order, but, again, backwards compatibility reasons.

In CL's defense, committees are usually much worse at designing things than people doing it alone, especially when backwards compatibility comes into play, and in CL's designed to be as backwards compatible as possible.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 11:13

>>43
I never said it was wrong. My opinion is that the use of GC constitutes a valid point of debate.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 11:17

>>34
That's just your problem. Took me less than a week to find reading Lisp to be quite natural. Prefix is no more unnatural to me than infix (it's even better for some things). Being unable to get used to some notation or semantic concept is a problem with one's mind most of the time.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 11:19

>>45
CL requires no GC, an implementation may just consume all the available memory without ever releasing it and still be standard-compliant.
What would you use, instead of a GC?

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 11:42

Lisp is unreadable. I can't see any structure in the parens sea, and the functions/variables have no syntactic difference.
Its like inverse of COBOL verbosity with polish notation.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 12:19

"A big obstacle within the Lisp community is the fact that we seem to have too many right-thing thinkers, whereas it would be more healthy to stress the diversity that Lisp allows us to have."

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 12:45

>>49
It's not ok to do it wrong.

Name: HAXUS THE GREAT 2011-10-21 13:03

>>50
There's always more than one right way to accomplish a task.
Lisp is always the wrong way however, with it's unreadable, cryptic parenthesis soup.

The Geneva Convention ought to have provisions against such an inhumane, ulitmately unscientific and harmful language even.

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 13:17

>>32
Fair answer

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 15:26

Why can't we switch to ARM even if it was ~4 times slower but much cheaper?
You can.  Why don't you know this?

Name: Anonymous 2011-10-21 16:06

>>51
You're the anti-GC spammer, so fuck off.

>>48
Exactly.

>>46
Fuck off.

Name: Anonymous 2013-03-05 14:34

Lisp
GC is shit.

Name: Anonymous 2013-03-05 14:45

>>55
If it isn't Lisp, it's crap.

Name: Anonymous 2013-03-05 14:47

If it isn't crap, it's Lisp.

Name: Anonymous 2013-03-06 0:52

>>2
Woah.
Oh my gosh.
You're the smartest person in the world.
You're amazing.

You're so SPECIAL. Clearly different than everyone else on the planet. Better, mentally faster than all the rest. Not an average or mundane sheep, but a SPECIAL human. More evolved. A master race consisting of one member.

Can I suck your dick? Maybe ingesting your semen will raise my IQ by 20 points.

Name: Anonymous 2013-03-06 6:17

>>58
Ashkenazi Jews are smart. Shockingly brilliant, in general. Impressively greater in brain power than the bulk of the human population. People who can’t comprehend the easily understood data verifying high Ashkenazi IQ may not simply be anti-semitic; they must also be crippled in the math/logic zone of their inferior parietal cortex, with subsequent IQ in the ~85 range.

Name: Anonymous 2013-03-06 13:02

>>58
Jews are smart, fuck off with your ironic posts back to Reddit.

Name: Anonymous 2013-03-06 14:41

>>59
Oh fuck off with your pseudo-science stormfag

Name: Anonymous 2013-03-06 15:12

Name: Anonymous 2013-03-06 15:33

Name: Anonymous 2013-03-06 15:39

>>63
enjoy your ~85 IQ

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